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chenoehi · 5 years

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*I'm reposting this bc it's not in any of the tags anymore & I really hate tumblr 💆‍♀️💆‍♀️💆‍♀️

I had a thought about the namkook interaction at the festa dinner, the 'monitoring' comment.

I read and agreed with what @lovetheonlyyouthereis wrote about her theory and how it might have related to kookmin, but something just hit me. If anyone can help me out with specifics on one thing...

So, we all know that Jungkook decided to come to BigHit because of Namjoon and we've heard the story several times before, but for some reason I feel like we're hearing them bring it up more frequently. I wonder if anyone else thought it was curious that Jungkook mentioned it again on stage in Busan after he mentioned it at the festa dinner, which was taped months ago. Then there was Jungkook's answer to an interview question in London, calling Namjoon his first inspiration. There's just been a lot of reassurance coming from Jungkook recently that he values, respects, and loves Namjoon and it seems like it's almost coming out of nowhere because it's not like everyone didn't already know all of this. I'm not sure why but it almost looks like Jungkook is overcompensating, which could very well be because of some tension if the 'monitoring' had to do with kookmin as @lovetheonlyyouthereis discussed or if the monitoring had to do specifically with Jungkook himself.

That's the part I'm questioning; I don't doubt the KM part because as I said before I've already noticed that Namjoon has been more laid back when it comes to them lately, to the point that it has become very noticeable that he is not actively trying to 'break' KM up on stage or even be near them at times. He sometimes chooses not to speak and verbally divert attention when before he wouldn't have hesitated. It's a little odd and unpredictable but it really looks like he's operating on a 'live and let live' philosophy right now. Considering the fact that it was Jimin who had the 3-hour talk with him about the monitoring, considering that Jimin felt so strongly about this thing that was bothering Jungkook that he couldn't wait and he just had to talk to Namjoon about it knowing they had a *morning* schedule, meaning they had to be talking at who knows what time and you know they had to be zombies trying to go about their business, but whatever it was it was that important, considering all that I don't doubt it was something that was personal for Jimin too.

The part I'm thinking about now, or wondering about, is whether the monitoring/watching and the concern extended beyond KM and to Jungkook, as in Namjoon felt like he needed to monitor Jungkook for some reason. I say that for a few reasons, partially because there are things that go on behind the camera that we don't get to see obviously and we never will understand their entire personal lives or their thought processes, but we got a glimpse into Jungkook's at this festa dinner.

He called himself insignificant apart from the idol, BTS's JK, and that didn't surprise me to hear that he feels that way about himself to be honest but I can't say how sad it made me feel. He's made comments before about not really being anybody or having much of a personality, things to that extent, before joining BTS. He says he feels that they made him who he his, specifically, he said they 'filled him in', so without them he might feel lacking. On top of that he made the comments about school, about not studying. Jungkook has said before that he feels he stopped maturing at 15, and he feels he did not apply himself in school, but he also knows he's not the kind of person who traditional school is a good fit for. But he was 'raised' by a hyung who he idolized that was bookish who has an IQ of 148 who did study well who was a good student, and he is also potentially (for those who may not agree) in love with someone who is a math genius and who was class president and was a very good student, so he has all these examples of what he may feel like he should have been and wasn't and despite where he is now he can't see that none of that matters anymore. What does seem to matter to Jungkook is that he is a Jack of all Trades but a Master of None. His passion seems to be creating videos, but to become an expert at anything takes time, hardwork, and dedication, and he knows that. He has things he likes to do and he's good at everything, but I don't know if there is anything he has really mastered yet unless we count singing, but even with that I think he does still struggle sometimes with inflection of emotion.

So I know we all like to point out how perfect and golden he is but the reality is that Jungkook doesn't see himself that way. He felt like he had to apologize to us for not presenting his mixtape when he said he would because he felt he wasn't ready yet, that his skills weren't good enough. He felt whatever he did would be not up to his standards of perfection and a disappointment (there is more than one perfectionist who self critiques too harshly in bangtan, in the maknae line no less).

Back to the festa dinner and the monitoring comment:

I remembered something Namjoon said in "Burn the Stage," when Jungkook had his health issue in Chile. Namjoon said something to the extent, if I remember correctly, that he at one point was questioning if it was a physical problem or if the problem was 'mental' and he realized that it was obviously physical; please correct me if the interpretation is wrong (I don't have the gifs in front of me), but basically, what Namjoon did, period, was bring up the idea of it being the result of a mental problem when he said instead, this wasn't a mental problem this was physical. Because why would he say that unless Namjoon was questioning it to himself. BtS was one of the first things I watched when I started stanning BTS and I still thought that was a really weird thing to say. I'm not sure why he felt like he needed to make that distinction when talking about it. There were other things he said in BtS like Jungkook hides his exhaustion from the other members, so it seems that when things like Chile happen it reminds Namjoon that Jungkook is human and may not always be taking the best care of himself for whatever reasons.

We already knew all of that well, BtS let us into their world and gave us some insight, and Namjoon himself has often been the one to say things about Jungkook that gave us a glimpse of him.

So I thought about that moment which has always seemed out of place to me. The monitoring comment very much seemed to be coming from Jungkook with not really any input from the other members outside of Jimin, but if we consider that the monitoring comment had something to do with namkook as much as it did with kookmin then things like Chile and Namjoon's BtS comment seem more interesting, for lack of a better term.

But then I've been floating around on Quora, as I do sometimes when I'm bored, which is this online question and answer forum, and I saw this question about BTS asking some of their hardships or experiences they've endured and once you look at one answer you can see all of them if you want to. On several of the answers I saw the Chile incident mentioned for Jungkook, but some people said that it was not the only time he has passed out on stage or after a performance. Many people used the number 3 when referring to the number of times it has happened. I know one of those might be that award show performance this spring where he collapsed off stage after performing, but have there been other times when Jungkook has fainted or collapsed due to exhaustion or health prior to these 2019 award shows?

So, I don't doubt the monitoring/watching might have had something to do with KM too, partly because Namjoon has backed off KM a LOT and also because Jimin was the one who went and talked to him; I also love the timing of Jungkook's 'live how you want to live' message for festa and find that telling. But, I don't think that's the only explanation, not after thinking about and reconsidering some namkook specific interactions. Especially in light of what Jungkook said at the festa dinner which was in line with things he's said about himself before.

Basically what I'm thinking is that it's possible some things have gone on in his personal life, emotional, mental, physical health and well being that have caused Namjoon some concern and led to similar monitoring of Jungkook. I'm curious to see if anyone else agrees or if anyone thought that Namjoon's comment in BtS was out of place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of the members at one point or another have either spoken or alluded to their mental and emotional health, and sometimes they talk about each other. But I don't remember Jungkook ever saying anything about his mental health. He speaks about a lot of things now but I can't recall anything he's said about that if he's talked about it, and that's strange to me considering that even just recently he's said negative things about himself and also knowing that his hyungs talk about mental health so freely. I think because they talk about their mental health specifically it makes a contrast to the fact that he doesn't really talk about his.

This is particularly interesting to me considering that in the KM relationship Jungkook likes to praise Jimin and build him up, and he doesn't really let him talk badly about himself; the most recent example of the haircut is perfect, he told everyone that Jimin's haircut was cute at the Busan muster because he knew Jimin was self conscious about it. It all gives off the vibe that Jungkook can easily help others practice self love but might have a harder time when it comes to himself. That 'insignificant' comment really let's you know something right there. The fact that he considers some of the experiences he lost by choosing the idol life and career to have set him back and that he's actually comparing himself, however subconsciously, to a person he idolized and another person he cares for it just reinforces his insignificant comment because he's saying he doesn't value his own experience because it wasn't what he thinks it should have been.

Not to be dramatic, but I'm really thinking about this kid who entered a very brutal industry at the age of what, 12? 13? And his parents weren't with him. This was a kid who Jimin found crying in the kitchen because he missed his parents, who was so shy at first that he couldn't shower around them or take his clothes off, who broke down when Hoseok was going to leave the group, a kid who Yoongi said had a big heart but his hyungs couldn't see it then because we all know he had a hard time showing that side, who was so emotionally complicated that he couldn't handle too much affection in front of the camera, and who only cried for his hyungs and not for himself.

Right now, I'm kind of suspicious of what's bringing up all of the namkook content we keep getting; could it be because the conversation Jimin and Namjoon had about Jungkook's issues w/NJ's monitoring led to some tension? Is this just reassurance that NJ is still his first love the leader of his life?

This went off topic and got rambly at times. I've honestly just been watching for a while and wondering if anyone is picking up the same things I am. I know Jungkook is not the member the fandom likes to discuss the most when it comes to these things and I really think sometimes, is it just me, or is the fandom simply more focused elsewhere.

#jikook #kookmin #namkook #jimin #jungkook #namjoon

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marshmallowgoop · 6 years

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Satsuki meta anon here again, apologies, but I was reading some meta that you wrote surrounding Soichiro/Isshin and his relatively necessity to abandon both his daughters, and wanted to contribute my own thoughts on the matter, specifically around the matter of difference of the nature of how alone both of them are. You nailed it completely with Ryuko. Isshin left Ryuko alone, wounded by his severance of their closeness in her early years and making it nearly impossible to bond with others. But-

-my reading of Satsuki’s situation is one of equal isolation, if of a different kind. Soichiro introduced her to a world where she can’t even trust her own mother, usually one of the, if not the most, strongest bonds a child could have at that age. Coupled with the fact that she was likely taught early on that being a child of a family with the wealth and power meant that people would try and use her for a piece of that, and you have a recipe for a grieving child incapable of trust without major investments of time and effort and frankly, some testing.

Soroi is in the employ of the family, paid by the family to serve Satsuki. In the beginning, while she accepted his attempts to comfort her via tea and an introduction of one of her closest friends, its very likely that she didn’t trust him right away even if she desperately wanted to bc of how closely money could play a part in that kind of trust. Yes Soichiro asked Soroi to look after her, but is that something he could have easily conveyed to her at that junction and have her believe it? I think the trust they attained by the time Satsuki went to middle school was very hard earned on Soroi’s part.

When it comes to Nonon, the light novel confirms that she didn’t find Satsuki interesting until she was very deeply troubled, a change that Satsuki very likely noticed the difference in her interest beyond that of two children of powerful families associating together. They may have been friends since preschool, but arguably Satsuki did not trust her until Nonon followed her away from a school that suited Nonon’s tastes and into a rougher one. Iori likely suffered from being placed in a similar boat as Soroi, not to be trusted for the sake of his uncle’s employment until proof otherwise (obviously earned as well, considering just how central Iori was to her plans and inner circle).

While Ryuko was utterly alone because of a broken ability to bond from separation anxiety turned to abandonment issues, Satsuki found herself alone among others who might very well sell her out for power or money, regardless of their true intentions. Both are very isolating situations. And I’d argue that trusting people with plans and secrets and perhaps your life are markedly different than fully entrusting your heart to them, which has been played up by the anime as a large difference between Ryuko and Satsuki. Where Ryuko opens her heart to Mako and Senketsu, Satsuki’s heart remains closed still until far later.

In fact, because of this, Ragyo saying ‘give your heart over to me’ (Netflix subs, I think I’ve seen it translated as ‘entrust your heart to me’ as well) has always stood out to me as understanding Satsuki doesn’t trust like that, which is what separates her from Nui and Rei.

Apologies for the length of this, and that I keep doing this your inbox, but this interpretation has been sitting inside of me since 2014.

Oh my goodness, Anon!

I hope this doesn’t come off wrong, but I think you really ought to be posting these analyses under your own name. You deserve credit for your excellent work! As much as I’m thrilled that someone would want to discuss these topics at such length with me—seriously, you do not have to apologize at all for engaging with my content so much because that is literally my goal—I feel that you should also be getting recognition for what you do. I know how much time and effort goes into writing stuff like this.

Of course, I do understand that there are valid reasons to wish to be anonymous. I just want to say that these are good, detailed posts that could stand very well on their own, without any input from me.

Regarding my input here, these asks remind me of a line from “KILL la KILL Digest -Naked Memories by Aikuro Mikisugi-,” a quick recap “episode” that was included as a DVD/Blu-ray extra. Narrated by Aikuro, the short briefly explains the entire plot of Kill la Kill and then sets up the OVA with its final lines: “As for Satsuki Kiryuin, who led such an intense life ever since she could remember, totally alone… What kind of clothes will she choose to wear from now on? That’s the one thing that intrigues me.”

As you might expect, I always disagreed with the sentiment of Satsuki being “totally alone.” In the tags of one post, I even wrote, in response, “Nah man you’re thinking of Ryuko” and, “Satsuki had Soroi and Shiro and her Elite Four.” As I argued in the essay that you’re probably referring to, Isshin/Soichiro left Ryuko alone—and drj2008 even opened me up to the idea that he perhaps very purposely created and utilized Ryuko’s loneliness so that she would be so desperate for love that she’d bond more easily with Senketsu—but Isshin/Soichiro did at least assure that Satsuki would always have someone by her side when he told Soroi to look after her.

And I think that’s the key point of difference here. I’d never before considered that Soroi would need to gain Satsuki’s trust because I assumed he had it from the very start. My interpretation was that Soroi had to be a dear, close friend of Soichiro for Soichiro to ever ask him to look after Satsuki, and Satsuki—who adored her father, arguably to a troubling degree—wouldn’t question her father’s judgment. From the moment Soroi and Satsuki met, I believed that she would know, just by understanding Soroi’s relation to her father, that Soroi was someone to be trusted.

But I see now that my reading makes a lot of assumptions. Who knows when exactly Soroi told Satsuki that Soichiro had asked him to look after her? Satsuki might have been informed that Soroi was her father’s choice in some way (which is… actually quite curious, honestly), and Soroi might have told her that he knew everything early on, but you’re right—we don’t really know. I think your reading is very fair.

Concerning Nonon, I agree completely. I found Nonon’s part in the light novel to be absolutely tragic. Talking about the story, I once said, “It just shows how Satsuki did not trust Nonon at all.” Nonon was head-over-heels infatuated with Satsuki, but Satsuki didn’t even bother to tell Nonon when she was moving schools. That’s the exact opposite of trust.

I swear I don’t normally talk about my fanfiction in my essays as much as I have been in these responses, but I explored Satsuki and Nonon’s dynamic in a short Satsunon Roman Empire AU. In my piece, Nonon learns that Satsuki is going away by hearing some chatter, and to prove to Satsuki that she’s worth trusting, she runs to Satsuki before Satsuki leaves, declaring that she’s coming with no matter what. At the end of the fic—and this is the relevant part here—Satsuki meets with Nonon again after the world has been saved, and Satsuki finally opens her heart up, noting that she wants Nonon by her side, as a friend and equal, and she’s done with being treated as a goddess to be worshipped.

And I think that’s a big thing you’re touching on here, Anon. Satsuki may have had all these people around her, but many of them considered her to be something more than human. And that is lonely. It’s difficult to reveal your insecurities and doubts and fears to someone who sees you as a god. After all, they’re probably not going to listen; they think you’re “above” all that. Satsuki was very much isolated, just like Ryuko.

However, I still disagree with Aikuro’s assertion that Satsuki was “totally alone,” mainly due to Soroi. Regardless of how long Satsuki took to open up to Soroi, I think she most certainly had trusted him with her heart at least by the events of the series. The moment where the two converse about Soroi’s tea in episode 17 is probably the most telling example within the show itself; Satsuki smiles genuinely for Soroi and even reveals her hidden emotions, readily admitting that she may have been more compassionate in the past.

I can’t definitively say how much Satsuki let Shiro or the Elite Four in, but Soroi? There is complete and total trust here. And while I dislike comparing Soroi to Senketsu because I feel this too easily lends itself to the interpretation that Senketsu is a father figure to Ryuko (which is my absolute least favorite reading of Kill la Kill and one that I consider to be a complete and total misreading of the text #PleaseStopSenketsuIsRyuko’sDadTheories2k19), I do have to admit that Soroi is, for the majority of the anime, the one person whom Satsuki seems to truly be herself with, just as Senketsu is for Ryuko.

Concerning the episode 17 scene mentioned above, I think it’s also pretty telling that Satsuki’s moment with Soroi occurs just after an intimate conversation between Ryuko and Senketsu that the script even emphasizes as a heart-to-heart that Ryuko deliberately wanted to have with Senketsu and Senketsu alone. Sure, I’ve argued in the past that the real connection between the scenes comes from Ryuko’s later chat with Aikuro and the fact that both Aikuro and Satsuki are discussing Soichiro/Isshin, but it’s also true that both Ryuko and Satsuki have very vulnerable, humanizing moments here. Soroi knows Satsuki’s heart, and she reveals it to him, just as Ryuko (quite literally!) shares her heart with Senketsu.

Of course, I think it’s clear that Ryuko’s relationship with Senketsu is one among peers while Soroi takes on a fatherly role for Satsuki in the place of Soichiro, but Soroi is still someone whom Satsuki trusts with her whole heart and soul. As pointed out, it may very well be true that Satsuki didn’t have that kind of trust in Soroi immediately, but I figure it can’t have taken too terribly long for the relationship between them to become close. After all, as noted in the aforementioned episode 17 scene, even young Satsuki smiled for Soroi when she had stopped smiling at school. Satsuki wasn’t being genuine, yes, but she was still breaking her hard guise for Soroi, and 18-year-old Satsuki is even surprised that she wasn’t honest back then, implying that she feels they’ve been as close as they are since practically the beginning.

I know this got terribly long, but I don’t at all disagree that Satsuki had also been subjected to an isolating situation. It is lonesome to feel, as outlined in an early advertisement introducing Satsuki’s character, that “humans are clothes-wearing pigs” whom she must “dominate,” “rule over,” and “destroy,” all while “relying on no one.” It is awful to believe that you have to do everything all alone, without sharing your true self with anyone.

And it’s sad, too! Satsuki’s struggles to truly trust others lead her to inadvertently hurt the people she cares about, and there’s something especially tragic about how Satsuki used and manipulated her own sister—whom Satsuki was fighting for all along!—rather than tell the girl the truth and trust her. As I’ve written in the past, “While Satsuki is not truly against Ryuko, her plan prevents them from being close. The thought of Satsuki fills Ryuko with hatred… when they could have been allies and friends. Satsuki’s tired, sad frown as Ryuko returns to normal [after going berserk in episode 12], juxtaposed with the Mankanshoku family’s shock and Nui’s bemusement, does well in hinting that maybe Satsuki wishes she had Mako’s power herself… and she’s sorry that she doesn’t.”

But more than all this, even Ryuko points out how alone Satsuki is after fighting Satsuki to a draw in episode 15. Ryuko only gets as far as she does by putting her complete and utter faith in Senketsu—and notably here, she follows through with his strategy even without knowing exactly what he intends to do—and she recognizes that Satsuki… doesn’t bond like that.

In pushing a point like this, I think the show definitely wants viewers to notice that Satsuki is stuck in a hard, isolating situation where she feels she can’t entrust her heart to anyone.

But I think the show also wants viewers to notice that Satsuki is more than capable of loving and trusting in the same way that Ryuko does. Ryuko doesn’t have a clue about someone like Soroi when she accuses Satsuki of being by herself, and as I’ve emphasized all throughout this monster of a post, I wholeheartedly believe that at least Soroi had fully earned Satsuki’s trust, even if it took a moment. Satsuki just about always had someone she felt safe with, whereas Ryuko… lost all that when her father abandoned her and didn’t find it again until she met the Mankanshokus and Senketsu. There’s a reason that one of Ryuko’s defining features is her loneliness, pointed out in her character introduction with the line, “Ever since I could remember, I was alone,” in her (and Senketsu’s) theme song “Before my body is dry” with lines like, “But I’m all alone,” and, “Don’t wanna be all alone,” in her fantasy world in episodes 20-21, and even by the cast, such as when the Mankanshokus note that Ryuko has to be super lonely to talk to her clothes or when even Ragyo tells Satsuki to go join her “lonely little sister” in death.

Ryuko gets a lot of heat for not being as strong as Satsuki upon learning her true origins, but I argue that you can’t really blame her. Even if Satsuki closed off her heart to most people, she undoubtedly grew up with a support system that Ryuko did not have until practically adulthood. Satsuki manages to keep her head up and carry on not only because of her immeasurable resolve and ambition, but also because she has a lifetime of love and support. Satsuki is not as alone as Ryuko claims (and I’d really like the Satsuki-centric Kill la Kill the Game: IF to elaborate on Ryuko understanding as much), and I feel that Soroi is genuinely an unsung hero of Kill la Kill. Could Satsuki have been nearly as strong without his influence?

I guess this is maybe a bit off topic, though.

In any case, I definitely agree that Satsuki struggled to open her heart to others, and I definitely agree that this is a hard, sad, awful place to be in. Part of what makes Satsuki’s team-up with Senketsu near the end of the series so sweet to me is that it is here that Satsuki really begins to open up. She doesn’t look down on Senketsu, she acknowledges his feelings, and in a cut moment from the script, she even outright tells him to wear her, thereby fully and completely trusting him to work with her and save Ryuko. Senketsu noting that his and Satsuki’s “hearts are as one” in episode 21 is one of the most heartwarming things in the entire anime when you consider everything that Satsuki has gone through. She’s been afraid to trust and afraid to show her true self to anyone, and yet… to save her sister, she opens up her heart to someone she had once considered evil and incapable of love.

And after this? Satsuki, despite saying in her introduction that she will be “bowing down to no one,” bows down to Ryuko.

And she smiles openly.

She laughs.

Satsuki was absolutely stuck in this lonesome, isolating position. But just like Ryuko, she gets out of it—and just like Ryuko, it’s so incredibly, incredibly sweet that she does.

#kill la kill #satsuki kiryuin #mitsuzo soroi #ryuko matoi #isshin matoi #soichiro kiryuin #senketsu #Anonymous #replies #ramblings #klk meta #gifs i made #whoops sorry this got way more out of hand than i expected ^^;#also dang i never realized how many 's'-names are in this show

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