#“we love watching straight people get killed”

[distort-opia]

It's strange how differently people from different culture react to famous characters. Even outside of batjokes shippers, I have seen a lot of DC fans of my country just straight up telling that joker loves batman and batman's obsessed with joker. Or just thinking that's he's gay, cuz like, you have a hot Blondie but you only thinking of batman? Well buddy I have something to tell ya. But it doesn't have the same reaction from people from USA, at least the one that aren't from batjokes fandom? Like, they seemed to get offended when someone point out joker obsession with batman and how it would be read this thing they two had....

How do you think people from your country read theses two? Because it was a kind of shock to me see a lot o straight man fans of DC just accepting that, welp, Joker definitely not straight and batman is... 🤨 suspicious for not killing him already. I guess its because the film with heath ledger is very famous here, and the line where he said that batman complete him stuck.

This is a really interesting question, trying to look at it from a cultural standpoint... I definitely heard of or encountered people entirely lacking knowledge of comics, readily agreeing that there's something more to Batman and Joker's relationship. As you say, just with tangential contact with Nolan's The Dark Knight or maybe the Arkham games.

However, I think that no matter where we're from, there's a distinction of three groups, with their own relevant factors, which explain their attitudes (at least to me). There's people who aren't into Batman or superheroes, but who obviously heard of them or maybe saw one movie or two. Then there's casual fans: people who like Batman and maybe watched the movies, maybe liked The Batman Animated Series, maybe played the games-- but you won't find them on Reddit or Tumblr or Tiktok as super active in fandom, just because it's not their main thing. And then there's hardcore fans, people who write and read fanfic, people who post on different platforms about Batman characters, the ones who consistently engage in fandom. But I'm putting the rest under the cut since I got long (with unnecessary psychological analysis, lol).

This is of course simply my personal opinion, based on what I've observed over time. A couple of factors might influence how these groups view Batjokes, though the first two I'm mentioning are a bit more likely to be found within non-fans and casual fans. A non-fan homophobic/conservative individual is still likely to reject actual canon of Joker professing romantic love to Batman or of Batman having to deny more than once he's in love with the guy-- although I guess you could hit them with straight Batjokes, hah (Thomas and Martha Wayne of Flashpoint). Leaving this type of person aside though (which you're more likely to find in some countries compared to others), I think non-fans usually easily agree to a romantic side of Batjokes, or at the very least to the existence of obsession. Just based on the tangential knowledge they have, it's obvious these two characters come as a pair and are defined by the other, so it doesn't take much to convince them. But within casual fans and hardcore fans... and here I'd add someone who's male, homophobic or conservative... well, we start to encounter one big thing about Batman that this kind of individual cannot get over-- projection.

For many men, Batman represents the ubermasculine ideal. He's handsome, at the peak of physical fitness, rich, has the coolest car and gadgets, has got women begging to sleep with him. He's cold and controlling and bad at social skills but still somehow beloved by all. Bruce Wayne has got terminal Main Character Syndrome, and it's undeniable a lot of fans consider him the epitome of the Alpha Male. So if you're gonna bring up that he's gay for the Joker... no matter how much proof you throw at them, they'll employ any and all mental gymnastics to shut you down or prove you wrong. That's not even getting into the guys who project on Joker, and who see Joker as this incredibly cool "agent of chaos" and strive to emulate that; trying to get them to admit Joker has been written as queer for decades (with multiple writers admitting to it) is another exercise in futility. They'll tell you Joker only said he loves Batman to scare him! He flirts with men to throw them off! It's all a tactic... because of course, being gay can only be scary to someone as masculine as Batman. It's the decades-old problem of queer-coded villains which I won't get into. But my point here is that fans who project onto either Batman or Joker specifically for how "Alpha" they are, are not likely to be open to Batjokes interpretations, no matter their nationality. But of course, just as with non-fans, there are plenty of casual or hardcore fans who are perfectly fine with shipping or potential homoerotic connotations. Hell, many times you might get them to go down Batjokes rabbit holes by letting them know about comic or game adaptations. They'll easily recognize the classical enemies-to-lovers trope this ship embodies.

But then again, both within casual and hardcore fans (though it's much more often the case of the latter) you'll have people who have no issue with shipping, who follow comics, who read fics etc. But to whom Batjokes is anathema, because they're too invested in a different way: not in the characters, but rather in showing how Good and Moral they are to other fans, and how they ship only the Good ships. It's the hordes of antis you see on Twitter and sometimes here on Tumblr too: the purity police kind of fan. "How can you ship Bruce with the monster who killed his son?" or "Joker paralyzed Barbara, how can you--" but it's entirely hypocritical and mostly rooted in the current trend of hating Joker. There's plenty of DC villains who have done similar things to Joker, or harmed the Family in similar ways to Joker, but he's the scapegoat right now for multiple reasons I talked about before (Joker fatigue and DC writing him like shit, the pushback from seeing all the alpha male dudebro fans latch onto him and hating that, etc.).

I got way too long, lol. But basically I think these generalized types of fan behavior can appear no matter the nationality, though there's undoubtedly a higher frequency of one or the other in different countries. Frankly, Romania is intensely religious and conservative, so in my country... even among my younger peers it's likely I'd encounter homophobic stances. And purity policing and that way of thinking is more likely to happen among fans from the US, like you pointed out.

[breakingstanding]

I am actually devastated over Michaela… not because I care about Michael or the book, but if they’re making Francesca queer, there’s no way they’re making Eloise a lesbian (which she SO clearly is!). I saw the spoiler of Franny and thought okay they can make 2/8 queer, and then I watched and saw they made Benedict queer too! I just can’t see them doing 3, especially 2 women.

It’s so disheartening because so many people have been rooting for sapphic eloise and I think hardly anyone was wanting Franny.

I think i’m more upset with this than if none had been queer because like ugh we were SO CLOSE. We could’ve had it all. like imagine how happy we could all be right now. 😭

they’ve been setting up queer benedict and eloise since season 1 so I just don’t understand why they would do this. (sorry for venting to you- none of my friends that’s watch are caught up yet)

Always happy for a vent, and I definitely feel you! I'm personally really excited about Francesca's storyline because I really liked her this season and Michaela is EXTREMELY hot lol - but I'm also frustrated that it's the sister we've had as a side character for one season who will be getting a queer love story, and not the one we've been invested in for three seasons.

Ultimately I think the frustration we are feeling is more because this is reflective of larger issues that always pop up in fandom than being upset about not getting a storyline we wanted for a character (although I'm not going to pretend that's not a factor too!) a) There's such a pattern in fan spaces for queer people to see themselves in a character and to recognise clear queercoding, and then to have straight people come in and condescendingly say "not all characters with x trait have to be gay" - as if we have an overabundance of queer characters and are trying to get our grubby gay hands on more. So much of the discourse around Eloise amounts to people saying "not all feminist characters have to be lesbians" which is crazy to me because WHERE are all these shows that are supposedly full of feminist lesbians?? Please tell me I would love to watch them!

b) Straight fans will get all different types of characters and plotlines for the heterosexual couples and then act like queer people are being greedy if we ask for more than one for us. Just within Bridgerton there have been three straight main couples already - and of the queer siblings we've also gotten to see a cute romance between Francesca and a man, and will likely see Benedict fall in love with a woman (this is not to diminish their queerness, obviously bisexual stories are incredibly important regardless of the gender of the love interests, more just pointing out the sheer quantity of m/f love stories straight fans get to enjoy).

It absolutely sucks that we exist in a TV landscape where instead of being excited about what looks to be a delightful relationship between Francesca and Michaela we are instead mourning the loss of other another character's queer potential. It's absurd that we are so rarely allowed to have multiple sapphic characters (who aren't each other's love interest) on the same show - particularly because in real life queer people tend to flock together!

The feeling reminds me of being part of the 100 fandom nearly a decade ago. I distinctly remember when it was leaked that Clarke and Lexa were going to kiss. The sapphic side of the fandom were definitely very excited - but there was also this strange sense of dread too. I saw countless posts of people bemoaning that now that she was gay they were definitely going to kill her off - and they were right! Bury your gays was such a common trope that we could see it coming a mile off.

This has felt like a very similar reaction. Queer fans spend a lot of time dealing with subtext and are very good at recognising tropes and patterns, and we know that the chances of Netflix allowing one their tentpole shows to have two sapphic main characters is slim to none.

I hope we are wrong and things are changing for the better, I really do.

I think the best thing we can do now is swallow our disappointment and make sure we support Francesca/Michaela fiercely to prove that there is an audience for sapphic stories.

[wordsinhaled]

saw an absolute awful take on payneland earlier today and it's still rolling around in my mind (tl;dr, it was essentially "i hope edwin and charles don't get together because edwin falling for his best friend charles and accepting that charles is straight is just as important a message for media to send out, because queer people experience that irl all the time, and it was important to show audiences charles rejecting him kindly") and i am still just fuming tbh because

#1 hello bi erasure!!!! please let charles rowland be bisexual for fuck's sake!!! let this boy already steeped in counterculture who grew up and died during the AIDS crisis with a father who almost certainly wouldn't have tolerated any hint of queerness in his son explore his fucking sexuality! he has room in his heart for crystal and edwin both! goddamn

#2 like... do people who have this take realize edwin was, basically, hate-crimed to death for being gay? that he was sacrificed to hell because his peers saw him as a "mary ann"? that this happened in the first place because of so much period-typical internalized homophobia that simon didn't know how to process his own burgeoning feelings for charles therefore expressed them through the only socially appropriate channel by sublimating them into bullying/harassment and responded to rejection with violence - and edwin had no idea how to acknowledge or process any feelings he might have had for simon plus rejected simon's advances out of fear of being ostracized further for an identity he may have recognized but denied in himself at the time???

...and you want edwin's narrative to be "tormented by sad gay feelings, breaks out of hell for the second time, musters up bravery to confess to "straight" friend - when the last time he even dared to have an air of being queer he got killed for it - gets rejected"??? fuck off fr. like go and watch that confession scene and look at edwin's red-rimmed eyes and

#3 you know, we queers just fall in love with our straight friends all the time and receive no unconditional acceptance and love and no open possibility of something more developing organically. so let's show that same bleak shit on TV, that's just the narrative we need. just to remind the queers watching they have no chance at happiness and they're lucky to get a compassionate rejection. in case anybody ever got hopeful for open endings. fuck off fr

#4 i dislike the implication that "straight friend" charles was so nice and so kind for "reacting nicely" to "gay friend" edwin because like... what is the alternative that we're supposed to be so happy we didn't get? the cricket bat? a second act of violence? what was edwin supposed to receive instead that it was so nice for charles not to do? you wanted to see anger, disgust, violence, drama, the breakdown of their relationship? when like... charles's entire narrative is about his boundless kindness and love, him overcoming the cycle of abuse and not being a violent and hateful person? pretty gross that this take reduces charles to That Straight Guy, of all straight guys, when he would never, he would literally fucking never and you're trapping him into the cycle he's working to break!!!

and mind you the whole POINT of this show is the many and multiple dimensions of love that are available to edwin and charles, the power of love and self-acceptance to overcome obstacles and barriers, the many ways friendship can be defined and include all different kinds of love, what platonic and romantic love means. so to see it reduced to "charitable straight guy kindly spares tortured gay friend the terrible humiliation he ought to have gotten" gives major ick especially DURING PRIDE MONTH like oh my god

anyway i'm not articulating myself well but like oh my god let DBDA be queer or get rekt

[thatinsanefagfromartschool]

i decided ti watch the friday 13th movies cause BIG MAN, most r pretty lame objectively but slay lol (literally)