#(except for my opinions of course. bcs i'm so smart. and handsome. and humble.)

[racke7]

Addon:

Okay, so that's the base-level stuff. Which parts do I think these games did well/poorly?

FF14, crafting mini-game:

I really like the high-quality crafting, in that it's basically a mini-game where you have to reach X in quality, and then also complete the item in order to get a high-quality item.

This effectively means that you can complete an item "beyond your level" if you have enough high-end gear backing you up, or if you're willing to settle with "finished" instead of "good".

High-quality materials also let you get a "jumpstart" on the item's quality, which means that spending time with the base-materials can help you push even further with the items you actually want to make.

I'm less thrilled about the way that crafting high-quality materials is extremely tedious (because you have to complete this mini-game separately for possibly hundreds of items).

A way to improve it might be to have a "second level" for high-quality? As in, if you get 100-points in quality then you get your high-quality item, and if you get 200-points in quality then you get the ability to "speed-craft" those items automatically as high-quality in the future.

Culinarian also pisses me off for having recipe lists that are incredibly long and complicated, and Alchemy pisses me off for being almost entirely "standalone" compared to the other crafting-classes.

FF14, gathering mini-game:

I also genuinely really like the basic gathering-system of FF14 (except fishing), where you can get "one item + extra".

Basically, there are "nodes" that you can mine for a specific set of materials (different materials depending on the area), and the items that can be gathered have a skill-RNG (X% chance to get the item, Y% chance to get an extra addition of that item).

This means that you can again spec into fantastic gathering-gear and gather items that are "supposed" to be beyond your level.

(I also genuinely had some fun with the "collectibles"-level gathering, but that ties more into a currency-thing, and so isn't really important for this discussion.)

I very much dislike the timed up-times for certain nodes to artificially increase their rarity, and I also dislike that fishing is almost entirely luck-based (no control over what you will catch beyond selecting "good bait" for the fish you're trying to catch).

I think fishing could be improved by tying it deeper into Culinarian, where you can do the Runescape-thing and basically just "fish up a fish, cook the fish" where different fish tie in to different stat-boosts. So a specific cooked fish is good for X but not Y, so that it's less "fishing for the single good thing in a sea of trash". Or by having Alchemy give you some kind of "ignore these fishes"-potions for bait.

In other words, reduce the amount of RNG, and tie it in deeper into the usual reason why you might go fishing (food).

Skyrim:

I honestly actually really like the leveling-system of Skyrim. Yes it's in many ways absurd to "make a sword" and "suddenly all the rats are bears".

But I do like that "crafting levels" and "character levels" are both separate and interlinked.

Getting better at fighting shouldn't make me better at crafting, and better crafting shouldn't make me (inherently) stronger in a fight. But if I'm spending hours creating a perfect set of gear (at level one) and then murderize everything in the game (at level one), then it just gets boring.

(I genuinely appreciate Skyrim's leveling and infinitely-respawning world, I just think that it's awkwardly done at times. In no small part because the enemies have "max levels" and once you get there, they will never be a threat again. But again, that's a different discussion.)

It's also nice that I can combine two Alchemy-ingredients at level one, and get the same (but much less powerful) potion as I'd have gotten at max-level.

There's some gating-off for Smithing, because if you want to craft new items you'll need to grind levels and then invest perk-points in learning how to use that specific material. But it's theoretically possible to just make the "ultimate gear" by the boosts you get from the other crafting-trees, it's just incredibly complex to do and kind of stupid.

Divinity 2:

I hate having to use my limited resources (finite money, finite materials) for limited advantages (consumables). And the Rune-crafting system is incredibly annoying, when (by the time you're supposed to get access to the good stuff) you can just buy those directly.

Its UI is also annoying (the recipe-list will always open "craftable weapons", despite those all being absolutely fucking useless).

Genuinely, the only parts of this crafting-system that I actually like, is that there's a mod that effectively lets you use "planting herbs" to make infinite money (slowly). So... that kind of showcases how important it is for the game.

Minecraft + Grand Fantasia + Terraria:

I don't like RNG that leaves you spending hours upon hours resetting things, or desperately looking for loot that might spawn.

Bloodborne:

I dislike the process of acquiring weapons (locked behind bosses and story-progression) and I dislike that there's a limit to how many weapons you can "max out", because of finite resources.

The "enchantments" that is the runes also don't really amount to much? Whereas I think that it could be a lot of fun to have a "fire weapon" and a "lightning weapon" of the same weapon, so that you can switch for what your enemies are weak to (without using these runes crippling your damage-output).

Disgaea (5 specifically, because it's the one I know best):

It's a grindy game that is all about grinding. In light of that, I can't complain too much about the endless grind that is the Item World.

Having said that, the gameplay here amounts to "bring out a few characters, have your Sage use the attack that hits everyone at the level, win the level". Which is... not a very exciting gameplay-loop when you have to do it hundreds upon hundreds of times.

The fact that (once you've completed your ultimate item) you can copy it? Great, I actually love that. The fact that you have to go through even more levels, and then get RNG-lucky to find a level that lets you copy it, and then have the RNG-luck to have that copying stick? Awful game-design.

I think the idea of the Item World is amazing, and if it existed in a game where the actual gameplay was fun and engaging on its own merits (*cough Bloodborne cough*)? The ability to improve an item to do infinite damage, requiring you to first become so strong as to make the enemies needed to boost to that level trivial? Fantastic.

Conclusions:

I think the actual crafting-part of FF14 is interesting and well-done, but I dislike a number of "time consumers" that they've shoved into it to artificially increase play-time, and would much prefer to not have to deal with it.

The fact that "crafting my own items" also effectively gives you weaker items than "going dungeon-diving" feels a bit mean, and the fact that the leveling is so clearly gated-off behind quests gets frustrating when all you want to do is craft.

It feels a bit better to have an actual "cap" on the stats you can get, so that you don't make the game completely trivial by becoming god at level one, but it's very frustrating to have actual item-creation locked behind game-progression.

FF14 letting you craft fashion-items is also incredible, because it lets you look however you want to look, which is great. Modded Skyrim has a little bit of this energy, but the sheer variety in the fashion-mixing for FF14? Fantastic.

I feel like Skyrim's "leveling world" and Disgaea's "item world" should maybe hold hands and kiss, because being able to create a "base item" that has all of the things that you might want on it (enchantments, stat-focus, aesthetics, etc), and then put the item's actual stat-boost behind a bunch of "combat challenges" that caps out the item instead of letting it scale to infinity, but that also makes the regular world more dangerous to compensate for this? Good stuff.

Disgaea's Item World in general is just a really cool addition to any game where "I think an endless horde of enemies would be fun" is a thing that you actually feel, whether that be because the combat-gameplay is great, or because the game otherwise feels very finite and limited.

I feel like the "perfect crafting game" can go one of either directions:

Item World:

Get an item, pick how you want the item to improve in some kind of menu (stat-increases, enchantments, etc), then go inside of the item to fight hordes of monsters to level-up the item (fighting these enemies also gives you EXP, if this is an RPG).

There's a limit to how high your item can be pushed, but it's high enough that a custom-made item is objectively the best item in the game.

The hordes of enemies will also constantly grow stronger as you level-up the item, so if you're too weak to push further you'll quickly be overwhelmed (and get booted out of the item, preferably with only some minor inconvenience of basically being "back to how everything was before" rather than "we destroyed your item").

Upon exiting the world with your Ultimate Item, you will find that the regular enemies powered-up in the time that you were gone (because you gained EXP), meaning that they're still challenging (I think a difficulty-setting here could be to be to adjust "how much" enemies scale with your level).

OR, in a non-leveling world, enough areas that you will inevitably reach one place where you WILL need that Ultimate Item in order to clear it.

Crafting mini-game:

Using FF14's crafting-system as the base, we create a third level of "quality" that allows for multi-crafting high-quality materials automatically.

We set the amount of different crafting-classes to be more along the lines of:

Adding properties to items

Creating consumables

Creating base-items

Increasing stats of the item

So that it becomes less "this type of crafting is the best if you want to focus on making the best crafter".

There's no stopping you from "at level 10" trying to make a "level 100" item, except for the fact that you will inevitably fail (increasing quality by 0% etc) and that the materials to try costs a fortune.

There is a cap for how high the numbers will go, but it's really more of a cap to the game as a whole (same as Skyrim's "can only block 80% of damage"-setting), rather than a "high-quality vs normal", and will actually tell you when you hit the cap.

Conclusion (attempt 2):

I think the Item-World version mentioned above could be objectively great, but am willing to admit that the Mini-Game version is more of a personal and subjective opinion.

Having said this, I'd very much like FF14 to please just overhaul their crafting-system to be less designed to waste time and force me to subscribe to their game for longer.

I'd also like for someone to please hurry up and create a Divinity 2 mod that lets you fight endless hordes of enemies and gain infinite EXP as a result (even if that's game-breaking). Or at least a mod that lets me pick and choose what enchantments I want on my gear, instead of having to play a fucking roulette-wheel for it.

If Sony ever lets Fromsoft remaster Bloodborne, could they also make the "cool items" available from the get-go, so you could play an actual full playthrough of the game using a specific fighting-style, without having to go NewGame+?

And would it really kill Skyrim to not be a glitchy god-powered mess for five fucking seconds?

Crafting systems in video-games

Having spent way too long last night leveling the crafter-classes in FF14, I started thinking about crafting systems in video-games.

Final Fantasy 14:

Crafting is separated into classes (Carpentry, Blacksmith, Armorer, Leatherworker, Goldsmith, Weaver, Culinarian, Alchemist, etc). And also with gathering (Mining, Botanist, Fishing).

Leveling all of these at once can let you do things like "crafting items that make you better at crafting", but the gains are both pretty minimal and clearly capped (you can't make an item better than "high-quality").

There are some ways to power-level crafting and gathering, and "make good gear" isn't really the method (it's quest-related).

Upon maxing out crafting, it's possible to use the crafted items as equipment for your combat-classes, but those will always be outclassed by the end-expansion "dungeon-currency equipment" that becomes available in the end-game.

Crafting however lets you get access to a LOT of fashion-items, can let you save money from buying potions/food, and lets you self-repair your armor for convenience. And... that's pretty much it.

Recipes range from "a single piece of material" to "you need 5+ different materials" and can be anything from gathering-class related to monster-drops. Some gathering-items can only be obtained at specific times, and a lot of things are gated-off by the story.

Divinity 2 Original Sin:

It's entirely possible to play through Divinity 2 and never really notice that the crafting-system exists. Crafting is based around "combine X and Y", with no other requirements.

Some items are powerful (invisibility potions, etc) others are convenient (arrows, scrolls, etc), and some are absolute junk (basically all "weapons").

The crafting system is hindered by the RNG and "finite resources" of the game, where certain things will not be available beyond a few plants that never regrow after being harvested, and monster-drops of monsters that also never respawn.

Crafting also lets you do some "enchantments" for any gear you might find (nails+boots for immunity to slipping, poison+weapon for added poison-damage, etc). But for the most part you're entirely reliant on "good loot drops" (or good RNG in a store).

Skyrim:

Crafting is separated into three classes (Smithing, Alchemy, and Enchanting), and they can influence each other (Alchemy can boost Smithing+Enchanting, and Enchanting can boost Smithing+Alchemy). There's also a non-leveling "crafting-class" (cooking).

There are glitches with these crafting-system, but we'll be ignoring those.

Smithing lets you create items and improve the stats on those items, Enchanting lets you put enchantments on those items (magic-resist, skill-boosts, magic-damage, etc), and Alchemy lets you make potions that will give you temporary buffs (magic-resist, skill-boosts, etc) and poisons that can be applied to your weapon (damage-over-time, paralysis, etc).

Leveling the crafting-classes will also raise your "main-level" and therefore also make the world stronger and scarier (because it levels with you).

Leveling the classes also allows for making a crafted item "infinitely stronger", in the sense that the game basically just uses your level to multiply the effects together, so there aren't any hard-caps for how big the numbers can get.

There is however a limit to how much "damage-blocking" an item can do (an armor-cap, and a cap for magic-resist) that isn't immediately obvious to the player (there are no hints in-game that it exists).

This means that the most basic-armor can be improved to the point where it's maxed-out, and the most basic-weapon can become capable of one-shotting the strongest bosses in the game. It's just going to take a lot of effort to get to that point.

Outside of mod-support, there are however certain items that will give you "unique enchantments" that can't be replicated. (This is a stupid decision.)

Minecraft:

Items can be crafted with the correct materials, but enchantments require levels as "payments" and will give you an RNG-based selection to choose from.

It's possible to bypass the RNG by getting "skillbooks" which can be acquired from villagers. But to get the "correct" villager is also an RNG-thing.

The entire game requires you to craft better gear yourself, as there isn't really a loot-system for anything other than materials. But an item of the same type with the same enchantment will always be the exact same, regardless of anything else.

Grand Fantasia (MMO):

Upon creating your character and choosing your class, you will chose a "sprite" that will accompany you. This sprite has certain skills (mining, foraging, crafting, etc).

The sprite will be able to gather materials, and then craft those materials into the specific crafting-skill that it has available to it.

This basically means that if you pick the "correct" sprite then you will have access to the "strongest weapon OR armor" for your class. The sprite will gather items by being sent on "missions", and will then be able to use those items to RNG-craft an item appropriate for their level.

As it's RNG, the weapon-creation might fail at any point in the process, and the higher-end weapons require the lower-tier version of their weapons to craft, so it can be extremely time-consuming to fix if the sprite fails.

The Disgaea-series:

In Disgaea, you can find/loot/buy items, and then use the Item World to improve those items to "ultimate power".

The Item World functions a bit differently between the different installments of the series, but the gist of it is that you can enter into the item and then fight monsters in there to improve the item.

This can be done to make an item powerful enough that it "caps" the stats of the character holding it. Potions and consumables can also be improved, but this is generally only true for healing-items (which you shouldn't need).

Bloodborne:

Items can be bought/found/looted, and weapons can be improved with the correct looted items (which are tiered and locked behind story-progression).

Weapons come with "slots" for certain gems, which can give more damage or give "magical damage" of a specific type. A weapon can only be improved to the cap, and will afterwards only "improve" by leveling your own character for the damage to scale higher.

Terraria:

Items can be crafted or looted, and can be "upgraded" into other items with the correct materials. These materials are tiered and locked behind game-progression.

Some items are RNG, others are guaranteed. Most materials require killing bosses to get.