#-.- i have love hate with clozemaster

[rigelmejo]

Impulse driving right now. Tempted to buy clozemaster lifetime just cause. I really do like their premade X thousand frequent words in sentences, for lots of languages. And i love radio mode cause its basically my preferred study (audio in target language then translation audio) so i can just fucking study by turning it on and doing it while i do other stuff.

Like. Ive been listening to old glossika chinese (which i WILL review when i eventually finish) but i know it only foes up to 3000 words, possibly less. And clozemaster includes different conjugations and filler words like soshite dakara mochiron which are actually super fucking common but glossika takes forever to get to.

Tempted to lifetime cause. I hate monthly suvscriptions. I have bad memory. Id kind of like to buy lifetime so i own it forever and can use it whenever i want then forget for months without an unexpected bill. Ugh

Mildly related: i wonder if satori reader has lifelong membership purchase option. Cause that has so much good reading practice...

[rigelmejo]

I'm going to make a comprehensible input resources guide, these are some long winded notes on the process.

For the purposes of this guide, by "comprehensible input" I mean language learning materials that are specifically made for you to be able to understand the meaning simply by engaging with the learning material. Learning materials designed to teach you the target language IN the target language. The hope is that after learning around 3000 words and main grammar concepts through comprehensible input, along with some basic listening and reading skills, you have learned enough to move on to watching/reading things in the language made for that language's speakers. At which point you should comprehend enough of what's going on (the overall main idea of most scenes/paragraphs) that you can continue learning from what you can comprehend alone. You can of course speed up how fast you learn new things at that point by looking up unknown things (the same way that in my native language I looked up "opaque, morose, grievious, mahogany" when reading to learn their meanings quicker growing up compared to the vague understanding I had of the words from what I comprehended and guessed from context alone). But at bare minimum, the goal is to get a foundation in the language through learning material you understand the main idea of, and get to a point where you can continue to learn using material for native speakers and just engaging with it.

An example of a (mostly) comprehensible input study plan:

1. Start with comprehensible input video series on youtube that is made for total beginners (examples: Dreaming Spanish, Learn Korean in Korean, Comprehensible Input French, Comprehensible Chinese, Comprehensible Chinese, Ayan Academy videos of Direct Method textbooks in various languages). You may watch these videos only once, once with target language subtitles (to practice reading) and once with no subtitles, or rewatch/relisten often if repetition is something you like to do when studying. An alternative to a comprehensible input youtube channel could include: audio flashcards (since they're "comprehensible" since you hear the target language, then english, then the target language again) examples of this include Glossika Audio Files and Spoonfed Chinese Anki deck Audio Files, and also any textbook/course audio or sentence flashcard audio files (like Clozemaster Radio Mode) you can find that repeat sentences in target language/english and go through a SIGNIFICANT amount of vocabulary and grammar. Tips: Explore the learning material options because some teachers, presentation styles, materials will click better with you than others (for example I hate anki and can't focus but sentence flashcards with audio would ultimately work fine for this if you can focus on flashcards 30 minutes - 1 hour a day, I love Comprehensible Chinese youtube channel but the ambiguity and struggling to understand may make some people dislike the lesson style). I strongly urge you to pick learning materials that teach a LOT OF VOCABULARY ASAP. I can't insist on this enough. Try to get exposed to 1000 common words ASAP (within a few months), and try to find various learning materials that will ultimately teach you 3000 common words or more (because you'll want to know at least 2000-3000 common words before engaging with material for native speakers comfortably). This is harder than you think, for example Duolingo only teaches 3000 words if you do the entire course, so unless you're cramming through Duolingo in 6 months (and I spend 4 years on it so I sure wasn't) then it's way slower paced than you need. Glossika is a good option, IF you intend to get through the whole 3000-6000 sentences in a year. If you use a youtube channel you'll want to look for courses that go into B1-B2 lessons and aim to get to the B level lessons by the end of a year or sooner. If a youtube channel only teaches colors, numbers, my name is? It has way too few words to teach you and while you can use it to start, you'll need another course with more material later. Good textbooks/audio courses will have 2000 words in them (at least) and if they have less I recommend either skipping them or cramming them quickly then moving on. If a lesson is 10 minutes long and you aren't exposed to at least 5 new words, the course might be going too slow. (I found an audiobook in my library for basic japanese that taught about 40 japanese words in 2.5 hours... that is WAY too slow of a rate to introduce new words). If the course is more than 50% english, it may be moving slower than you need (and in a comprehensible input material like 90% or more should be in the target language unless you're using sentence flashcard audio where 50% will be english). TLDR: find learning materials that teach in a way you can easily engage with regularly and focus on, and find various learning materials to work through that will eventually teach you 2000-3000 words. I will give examples below.

2. Once you have a few hundred hours studied (100-800, it really depends on how soon you want to jump into doing more) find Graded Reading materials in your target language. The goal here is to start graded readers once you know the amount of words the graded reader you pick recommends you know when starting. So for example, Mandarin Companion books have some graded readers for near-total beginners, and you could start the Mandarin Companion books quite early after starting to watch Comprehensible Chinese. French by the Nature Method textbook is made to be used by total beginners, and teaches roughly 3000 words, so you could start that graded reader immediately upon starting french and read it alongside listening to Comprehensible Input French youtube videos. Things to look for in graded readers: they will tell you how many words you should know when starting (say 500 words) and the book will be easier to read if you don't try to read it until you get close to the recommended words (like say knowing 350-400 words when you start reading). Check how many words the graded reader contains: if you know 200 words and the book teaches 200 words, you may only learn 20 new words that didn't happen to overlap words you already knew. It would be good practice for learning to read better, but that particular graded reader will NOT teach you many new words. So if your goal is to continue increasing vocabulary at a fast pace, you may pick a graded reader with 100-500 more words than you currently know. It may be a slog at first to look up the new words, to reread sections, and to try to follow whats going on, but by the end of the book your vocabulary will have grown a lot. How many new words per book you can tolerate will greatly depend on you. When I knew only 500 chinese words, I picked graded readers with 300-800 unique words. 300 unique word graded readers helped me improve reading skills, and 800 unique word graded readers gave me roughly 300 new words to learn which was the upper limit of what I could handle. Once I knew 1000 words, I'd pick 1500 word graded readers with 500 new words for me to learn. Now that I know 3000+ words, most novels have at least 500-2000 unknown words for me and I just pick based on how it feels to read and how much I want to look words up (I usually go by 20 or less new words per page, 30 or less new words per chapter, when I want to pick novels where I don't have to look any words up if I don't want to...5 words you don't know out of every 100 words you see is usually the limit to where people still feel comfortable reading without looking anything up. If there's more unknown words than that ratio, people usually start feeling frustrated unless they look words up). TLDR: basically look for "beginner graded readers" for your target language, and keep pushing yourself to pick graded readers with more words for the next one. You will eventually push your vocabulary up to 2000-3000 in this way after reading several graded readers, in combination with watching/listening to some Comprehensible Input learner material.

3. Immersion "the fun stuff." You've studied for 1-2 years now and learned 3000 words. Or, like me, you are impatient and comfortable with ambiguity and have studied 4-6 months and have at least vague familiarity with 1000 words. You have at least some familiarity with common grammar, and pronunciation (from those comprehensible input learning materials with audio, and graded readers). You can now learn by immersing with materials for native speakers! If you have a high tolerance for difficulty, you can start immersing as SOON as you can bear it. I've seen some people start immersing knowing 500 words, basic grammar, and 3 months of study. I personally can tolerate learning from immersion at around 6 months of study and 1000 words learned. For some people with lower tolerance for ambiguity, they are really going to want to know 3000 words before starting to immerse. However, IMMERSING IS ALWAYS HARD AT THE START. You are not bad at the language, you are not dumb, you CAN do this! Everyone eventually has to "immerse" because even if you study to B2 in classrooms, having a real conversation in the country or trying to read a new novel in the language will BE HARD if you never practiced that particular activity before. Half of immersing is continuing to learn new things, but the other half is LEARNING to understand what you already studied. That part is HARD when you start, because it's the first time you're trying. So if when immersion starts, it feels difficult, I urge you to continue trying to immerse for at least 3 months anyway

Try to immerse 10 minutes daily at first. Basically try to immerse "until it feels too draining." Build up to 20 minutes daily, 30 minutes, until you can actually tolerate 1 hour blocks at a time. I also recommend picking the EASIEST STUFF POSSIBLE when you start immersing, since you're learning to understand what you've studied... you may not want to also get a ton of brand new words shoved at you simultaneously. Good options for initial immersion may be: watching a show you've seen before in english, watching a slice of life/romance/action show where often what people are Doing Visually is related to what they're saying, playing a video game you're really familiar with (so you can guess the words easily), reading the kids form of a novel you're familiar with (so if say you know The Monkey King story then finding a chinese kids novel of The Monkey King may be approachable), finding books and shows with low unique word counts (Heavenly Path's site has a lot of good recommendations that list word count, you'll want to aim for 1000-3000 unique words when you start and the lower the better). My personal rule for immersion has always been: I must at LEAST understand the main idea of each scene (or be able to look up only 1 key word every 5 minutes to get enough information to grasp that main idea) in order to immerse with it. If I watch a show and I can't follow the main idea of the scene, even if I look up 1-2 keywords? Then that show is too difficult for me to learn from. And as I learned more words, much of my immersion material became "I can understand the main idea of scenes without any word lookups, and optional word lookups are only needed if I wish to understand some specific details I cannot figure out from the context I understand." Once you've learned 3000 words, you SHOULD know enough to grasp the main idea of your average slice of life romance show or a kids show you've seen before in english. If you're watching a slice of life romance and have no fucking idea what's going on, and you know 3000 words? I urge you to re-watch the episode 2-3 times. Because the problem is likely that you're struggling to understand words you DO already know. If you watch something with target language subtitles, you can pause and read subtitles at first until you get better at understanding what you know at speaking speed. You can also use the subtitles to see if the thing you didn't understand was Actually a new word, or if you just didn't catch/recognize a word you've studied before.

In my experience, immersion progress went through stages. I imagine that if you start immersion after already knowing 3000 words, the beginning stages will be shorter and less draining.

Stage 1: immersion feels exhausting, you only tolerate 10-20 minutes of immersion before feeling fried trying to pay attention, you are pausing constantly to read target language subtitles, you are replaying sentences frequently to hear things multiple times until you clearly hear it, you may do immersion on and off with several days break in between each attempt, and do easier less draining graded readers and comprehensible input learning materials between attempts. Over time the learning materials start feeling way easier than they used to be, and the immersion material feels like you can tolerate immersing a bit longer. Note: if you start immersion after already studying ~3000 words, then you should know enough words that any word lookup should be completely optional during immersion... as word lookup would mostly be review of stuff you studied, rather than learning new words, and new words should be surrounded by enough stuff you know to simply learn the new words from context alone. This applies to all stages: if you have enough vocabulary to understand without looking up any keywords, its excellent 'easier' immersion material for you and you can continue to immerse without looking up anything.

Stage 2: you can watch 20 minutes to 1 hour of immersion material at a time before feeling drained, you may be looking up key words once every 1-3 minutes (or else feeling confused a lot), you are starting to reliably follow the main idea of scenes as long as you look up a few key words, and you're getting a better idea of what words will help you understand what's going on. You are getting better at "understanding things you already know" and no longer need to pause as frequently when words you've studied before are said or when grammar you've seen before is used. You are getting somewhat better at comprehending speaking speed.

Stage 3: You have gotten much better at "understanding things you already know" and now only pause once in a while when words/grammar you've studied is used, most of your pausing and looking words/grammar up is happening when you see something new to learn. You may replay lines to catch more detail, but you do not need to replay lines constantly simply to understand them. You can look up 1 keyword every 5 minutes and follow the main idea, or even look up no keywords (if the immersion material is easier) and comprehend the main idea.

Stage 4: for easier immersion materials, you are now comprehending the main idea of scenes without much effort, watching 40 minute shows is no longer extremely draining on your focus, and you now notice DETAILS you are not understanding. A lot more of the new words you look up relate to DETAILS in scenes. While you may still want to replay lines to catch more details or double check that you understood a main idea correct, you could go through a whole episode without ever replaying and still follow the main story. You could go through a whole episode with no word lookups and still follow the main story.

Stage 5: for easier immersion materials, you no longer feel it takes intense focus to follow the main idea. Following the main idea may feel almost as easy as in your native language. Most of your focus/feeling drained is happening with details and the words that now stick out to you as words/phrases you don't know. If you decide to look up unknown words at this point, you can look up more than just keywords because there are few enough unknown words it is not extremely time draining to look up most unknown words. At this stage, depending on how easy the immersion material is, you can simply watch for pleasure and pick up words from context, without feeling drained.

Stage 6: You start picking harder immersion material, and repeating various stages 1-5 with it. The harder immersion material gives you more new words to learn per minute, since the easier immersion material was no longer providing you as much. Again, you do not strictly need to look up any keywords when watching. If you choose to look up keywords, you can pick "more difficult" immersion material since you'll have word lookups to help you comprehend it. But if you choose to look up keywords or not, as LONG AS you understand the main idea of scenes you WILL understand enough to learn some new words from context alone. If you would like to learn primarily from just DOING aka watching/reading in the language, not looking things up, aim to pick easier materials where you understand the main idea of scenes without any word lookups. If you enjoy looking words up, you can dive into immersing in fairly difficult materials quickly since the main barrier will just be "words you need to look up to comprehend what's going on." I would recommend though, even if you like looking words up, to do the first few immersion months with "easier material." Because the first hardest part of immersion is learning to understand things you've already studied. That will feel very difficult at first, so picking things that mainly comprise of what you already studied will give you time to practice That Skill without overwhelming you with other new things. Likewise, the first few times you do listening-only practice... it may be a good idea to practice listening to stuff you've watched before or read before, so you know the words and the difficulty is mainly in just understanding listening to things you already know. That way, when you improve, it is obvious to you.

(In reality, my actual study plans consist of: some comprehensible input, some watching shows/playing video games and looking up new "key" words for meaning with Google Translate, a lot of reading graded readers extensively, a lot of reading novels and looking up words either just key words or every single unknown word depending on how I feel, reading along to novels/transcript while listening to an audiobook/audio drama, chatting with people on Hellotalk* I need a better strategy for output practice though, reading grammar guide summaries and grammar book portions when I want, and in the first 6 months of new language study I usually do 2000 flashcards crammed in 2-4 weeks in anki/memrise and read through a grammar guide summary in 2 weeks and cram study radicals/letters/building blocks in a few weeks along with cramming through a pronunciation guide in a few weeks. Those first 6 months I learn very little *well* but I get a vague familiarity with a lot of Common Words and Common Grammar and pronunciation and features, so when I start studying more in depth by like reading novels and listening to audio and looking up lots of unknown things... I have this 6-month basic foundation to attach my newly learned memories to. All that said... after the initial 6 months, a majority of my study is either comprehensible input or doing things in the language while looking up unknown words/grammar.

[rigelmejo]

I just tried Glossikas new site. Which reminded me how much I hate it still! Wooh!

So basically (for those curious), glossika used to make a course of maybe 3000 sentences (or more) per language, aiming to cover up to B2 in a language. Now, I can't find the exact numbers right now but I think the lessons may cover 2000-3000 words, so not ideal for languages with few cognates to your native language. But a decent basis (much more words than pimsleur). The old audio files basically worked as audio flashcard files, with a srs like study schedule you'd study them with (or randomly), which I imagine worked well because I've studied audio files in that manner and it worked great for me. So their old audio files were great! I've downloaded the Chinese, Japanese, French, and Korean old files. Which they no longer sell. Which is annoying as fuck cause I'd happily buy them. But alas, glossika is one of those companies that would love monthly subscription money from people instead of a 1 time 300 dollar payment. (Shout out to Pleco, my favorite language app ever, that ONLY does free stuff and one time purchases to own forever - I respect one time pay models so much, I love them dearly).

Well glossikas new version, is to offer up their audio files as sentences with text/audio on digital "flashcards" where you study 5 at a time per session, in srs spaced repetition format. So basically they redid their audio course so instead of 30 minute audio files and a book (if you want to read too), instead it's in Anki format. I fucking hate it. Why do I hate it? Well for one, you can't buy the old files, and you also can't just listen to the current sentences in that old way of just fucking listening to 30 in a row. You have to stop what your doing, focus on the flashcards since now you MUST read too instead of using it as an audio-only course. You MUST do flashcard format even if like me u take 1 hour to get through 5 flashcards (when if presented in audio only format I can get through 60 sentences aka 2 audio lesson files). For another, I find the new format slows one down. It turns lessons into tiny bite size pieces like duolingo, which to me means unless you're diligent and do 20-60 sentences a day, you're going to finish courses AGES SLOWER than when using the prior format. Just... they used to be one of the few Really Good actually could get you to "know enough to converse and maybe immerse" level in a language resources that was suited to audio if you preferred lessons in a car/during commutes/during walks/during a busy fucking life. If you could focus for 90 days and just make time to listen, then listen as review regularly for a while, you could make a fuckton of progress! Their new model means unless you're the kind of person who goes wild on anki and gets through thousands of cards a year... you will progress slower.

And if you ARE someone who does well with anki? I recommend anki INSTEAD. BECAUSE the user made anki 6k core deck, the memrise nukemarine Lets Learn Japanese decks, the clozemaster app japanese common word deck, are ALL sentences with audio going up into 6k sentences or more! Covering more content than glossika, free! In the same flashcard app format! The ONLY reason id use glossika (personally) instead of those 3 alternatives, is if I want an audio only method that's just FILES and no fucking app I have to drop everything and force myself to manage to focus on. (I'm really really bad at focusing on flashcards apps I move at a snails pace on them which is why I prefer audio flashcard files in 30 minute chunks so much more). And even if you like audio files in large chunks? Clozemaster radio mode IS THAT. GLOSSIKAS only plus is they have real people speaking, clozemaster has machine audio. But the anki decks and memrise decks all have natural audio!!! So compared to modern glossika, why even use modern glossika??? Why pay a monthly subscription fee when free better alternatives exist???

All this to say that... today I tried glossikas modern website flashcard bullshit again. They don't even have an app. I was annoyed at its weak points (the time it took to load audio, the lull in time over and over again), again extremely hyper aware I could go fucking open clozemaster instead for a better experience.

I'm glad I downloaded their old audio files, because they are genuinely good. But god I am so frustrated and disappointed with their modern offering. It has the same content, but in some ways presented more difficult to access and use. (If you prefer app srs flashcard format though you would find it easier to use now, and if you do want to specifically test glossika and work thru it at a quick intensive pace it may be worth the money for you - it does do a decent job of covering good a1-a2 level stuff and at least preparing you for immersion at maybe a B1 level for Japanese. However if money is a concern, again I think ankis core 6k user made deck, nukemarines LLJ memrise decks, are way better free alternatives that also use real natural Japanese audio and cover more material in the same srs flashcard manner).

[rigelmejo]

December reading progress:

Ok just read 2 chapters of 天涯客 I today, I did actually read solid without breaks this time so I can say chapter 4 took me about 40 minutes to read. That’s the time it took to read without breaks, and looking up each unknown word.

I might be able to read a bit faster if I skipped unknown words that didnt look important.

I ran one small section through DeepL to make sure I was following the fight correctly and learned 1. Yes I was 2. Priest writes in a style the machine translator absolutely could not handle lol. (So I guess shout out to 寒舍 for reading easier grammar wise/wording choice wise I guess). I do think most of my plot confusion was from reading fast for “me” since when I slowed down and reread a few paragraphs I was able to clear up my misunderstanding. Also priest loves using 似的 in this novel.

I also have the faraway wanderers English translation open because I thought it might be good to read that alongside, to clear up any confusion or pick up context. That said, I’m much farther in the Chinese version so I’ll see if I even catch up with the English one. Also? Potentially could use Pleco for audio and the English translation to do listening reading method with this novel if I wanted.

I’m just... feeling very motivated to finish a priest novel. The idea of accomplishing that makes me so excited. Also it was the dream goal when I started? I mean dream goal was guardian but let’s take baby steps since tian ya ke is an easier read lol. Also I did NOT think I’d even be at a tian ya ke bearable reading level by this time so it’s still pretty dream goal to me!

Also this novel has 70 some chapters so... like maybe it’s doable to finish. Just compared with like the intensity that is some of priests novel chapter counts.

In related news I find it fascinating that priest does write a style the Mtl finds difficult to parse but I’m comfortable with it; yet again with the gongzi huanxi novel I died trying to follow the sentence style?? I think priest just had a huge influence on what I figured out first/feel more comfortable with lol.

I think after this I have a few novels I would like to read: SCI, poyun and the related recs I was given (which are all mystery novels), zhenhun, MoDu, some of the novels on my rec lists mm, Tamen de Gushi... I am probably gonna crave a modern novel after yhis unless I get sucked into it (in which case HELLO qi ye). SCI is probably gonna be the safer bet though as I know already that’s an easier read than priest novels. I have so many novels I want to read... I say this all as IF I can make myself finish one novel instead of skipping between many. That said I would really like to start finishing novels... to start going through them...

I’m also playing with the idea of just making myself extensive read more. It’s not good for my new Hanzi pickup since I can’t hear sounds, but I used to do that with mo du and it really did help (and was so challenging damn). But like I ALREADY have done it with some mo du chapters so I should stop being a coward. So if I could do it at 6 months I can Certainly do it now at like 16 months!! Plus I could look at the eng translations for reference and use them like parallel texts, which is a decent study method. And if I do any listening reading that’ll fill in the listening gap a bit. Anyway I just think whatever I can DO to make myself read more will speed up my progress accordingly - and get me closer to the end goal of reading anyway, which is the point. Learn by doing. I’ve got a fairy tale storybook too I could do this with, a parallel reader, if I wanna be a coward and start with something easier than Mo du lol ToT

I’m also sort of parallel reading dmbj not because I planned it, but because it’s relatively easy? Just since that’s novels I’m going through too.

—-

Some stats for myself as December is getting past the midway (counting from beginning of December):

1. Chapters of Chinese novels read: 8

2. Listening reading method: 5

3. Chinese audio listened to: 13

4. Clozemaster (which I abandoned after beginning of dec lol I hate flashcard type things), sentences gone through: 568

5. Clozemaster, track reached: 2000 most common words

In my defense of the low reading count, all the chapters this month were dmbj, tian ya ke, the wolf - basically long 20 phone page chapters. Also I have been busy as all hell this November to December so I am proud of myself for at least being consistent and continuing TO study, which is the most important thing - slow progress is ok, as long as study is consistent progress will keep happening and that’s all that really is needed. There is no time limit. (Although I should refuse to let myself buy more novels until I learn more lol ToT).

Finally, mid december, I know my goals this month: READ. READ READ READ.

Dream goals for the next few months Dec-February: READ through a full novel intensively, READ through a full novel extensively, LISTEN READ METHOD through Guardian. If I get any single of these goals done I will be an immensely happy excited person! If I get more then one I’ll feel like a god tbh ToT

Secondary: listen to ALL of Chinese SpoonFed audio (and just listening in general which I’ve done well recently). WATCH through a full show in chinese only (I’m looking at granting you a dreamlike life since I’m 1/3 done already, or border town prodigal, or legend of the condor heroes). I think these goals are very very reachable for me now, I just don’t know if I’ll have the time to do any of them fully.

[rigelmejo]

Review of Lingq and Reader Language Apps

My tentative review of lingq: Literally seems to serve the same function for me as the Pleco Reader. The positive benefit of using lingq - it highlights words you don’t know in blue, words you’ve started learning in yellow, and words you already know are left unhighlighted. This is motivating because the progress you make is clear, and the words you already know you don’t try to over-study or re-memorize (because my perfectionist tendencies LOVE to get hung up studying things I already know before progressing). Lingq also counts the words you’ve marked as known. That is the primary reason I’m trying the app - I wanted to gauge how many chinese words I actually can read and am familiar with.

However, the core negatives to lingq: their dictionary/lookup function for words is clunky and inconvienient. It only shows the most common translation at a quick click pop up and that isn’t necessarily nuanced or correct. The pop up is hard to get rid of because you have to expand it then exit out of it, which is inconvenient and slows down reading (I wish I could just click the pop-up again or click the word again to remove the translation pop up). It has options to search more in-depth definitions on sites like baidu, but all the steps that takes makes doing so just as time consuming as opening the internet browser or baidu app and searching it that way. So the dictionary option I find is lacking and inconvienient, and that affects ease of reading/ease of use. The dictionary feature IS better than the Idiom reader app, but Idiom reader app also has the ability to look up more in-depth definitions which takes just as much time as lingq/a web browser. 

Basically - Pleco Reader is eons better than both of them. Pleco Reader’s only draw back in definitions, is it provides so many that the less familiar you are with chinese, the more its a puzzle of which definition applies (but usually the top ones are the most common, so it’s rarely an issue) - but a reader can’t be expected to know which meaning of 15 possible a writer may have intended, if that meaning’s one of the least common. So it’s just nice that pleco provides the less common ones so it’s easy to look up when those situations arise. In addition, Pleco Reader is very convenient to flip from dictionary explanations back to reader, not slowing the reading experience. Lingq ALSO has very few chinese materials in varying levels. It seems to rely on users uploading their own materials. So a lot of it seems to be ripped from a textbook, or web article, or native book. Pleco Reader in comparison has several graded readers available to purchase, which are great for picking materials at your actual reading level, with relatively high frequency words to learn, and with grammar that should be comprehensible. Also, pleco lets me import any of my own pdf, ebook, and txt documents, along with any website. So I can read webnovels on there, my own graded readers I’ve got from other places, etc. Pleco Reader is MUCH more convenient for reading virtually whatever you want, and it’s definitions are both easier to access (including most idioms you’re likely to encounter) and more likely to have most helpful definition. 

Probably the biggest difference - Lingq is 12.99 a MONTH. Pleco Reader has a one time cost of 10-20 dollars (depending on the package you buy). Then Pleco sends you a code so if you ever lose your app/get a new phone/something goes wrong, you can enter the code and get back all your purchases. A one time cost is eons more affordable, and really kind of them. I especially like that they put in the effort to give you the ability to recover your purchase if you have any issues. I bought the 20 dollar package I think - so I could get the expanded dictionary, with pretty much any word or idiom I’d ever see, natural speech audio, and the Reader. It has been well worth it. I’ve been using pleco for like 4 months, so the longer I use it the more that cost seems minimal (it’d be like the equivalent of 5$ a month before, free now. Or the equivalent of the cost of Lingq for less than 2 months).

Lingq’s cost PER month I’m not sure I could feel justified in spending. The ONLY added benefit I see of using Lingq over Pleco, is lingq has color coded the words you know/don’t know/are learning, and lingq counts how many words you know. Those two features are motivating. But they’re just motivational benefits. 

Other then that, Lingq has the following features: audio (Pleco Reader has this too), flashcards (using anki or memrise for free appear to be equally good or better than lingq’s feature, especially because you can simply export from lingq), cloze-like questions (again, memrise, anki, Quizlet, and even in some ways clozemaster are free alternatives). I personally hate flashcard type study, so I use memrise when necessary but generally would never use such features - so lingq’s flashcard features aren’t worthwhile for me. If they’re something you’re interested in - again, there seem to be free options available that are as good as or better than lingq. 

So, at least for my own personal learning preferences, lingq does not seem to be worth it. Everything it provides is available somewhere else for cheaper, for a one time cost, or free. Pleco Reader I think offers the most benefits and convenience out of every Language-Reader app I’ve tried. Compared to: Lingq, idiom, using Baidu itself on a webpage, etc - closest comparison is the free ZhongWen chrome extension on chinese sites, I think that’s nearly as convienient as Pleco Reader and obviously the alternative for when you’re on a computer. Idiom is actually a really nice app considering it’s free, and it does serve the basic purpose (Pleco Reader is a one time purchase cost) - idiom has sometimes incorrect translations/audio, but over all if you read enough content then that’s just a few words a paragraph or page that you won’t be able to study.  Those words can be looked up separately in a free dictionary app (like free Pleco’s dictionary, or google translate, or baidu) if they keep confusing you or keep seeming to be wrong. 

Lingq just... does not seem worth 12.99 a month, for only the added benefit of making it obvious which words you know/don’t know/are studying. Other than that single ability, there are comparable tools out there that already does what Lingq does or better, for cheaper or free. 

Overall, readers I would recommend:

Pleco Reader (10 dollars, or a bit more if you buy it in a package, single time purchase) - benefits include the only dictionary you’ll need, audio (per word or for entire text), flashcard making ability, option to import any ebook/txt/website, option to one-time purchase graded readers. Although paid, I appreciate that all purchases are one time only. On a phone, this is the app I overwhelmingly rely on - it has everything I need in one area. I personally like to open up mtlnovels.com and read the novels with dual chinese/english, so I can look at the english sentences afterward - and use Pleco Reader as I get through the chinese chunks to make sure I can look up words I don’t know. If I were going to start translating, I’d probably use this method so I could get a gist of the meaning in english, then go through each line and fix errors and improve the translation for idioms and less straightforward meanings. For reading for Ease, that method’s the best for me to get through the novels I want to read. For reading intensively, I just open up a novel I want to read in all chinese and chug through it using pleco to look up words I stumble on. 

Free alternative: Zhongwen chrome extension. Equally extensive dictionary, links to grammar points, audio (per word), can read anything online or opened in a chrome browser (so you could open your txt documents in it) - sometimes works on subtitles on videos too. Subtitles on viki, on netflix, seem to be readable by zhongwen. It may work on some pdfs opened in chrome. Only available on computers. It’s really fantastic. If you’re on a computer I’d just recommend using this one overall. 

Free Alternative: Idiom - app. dictionary is decent, but some errors or limitations mean occasionally looking up words in another free dictionary app (Google Translate, Baidu Translate, Pleco Dictionary). Machine audio (per word), also sometimes has errors. Can read anything on a website. There are some other readers that serve the same function as idiom, I’ve seen one for webnovels... but I think at idiom overall is as good as or better than the other options out there. Idiom does not auto-link you to novel websites, but if you can find them then you can put any url in. Idiom also works for MANY languages - so you can also use it for french/spanish/japanese/etc. Idiom is the app I use for french, since obviously Pleco Reader is just for chinese. For free readers, and readers in other languages, I think idiom’s the best bet. Lingq might have more appeal for language learners of other languages - since it IS a little better than idiom with providing the correct translations, but lingq’s translations are still off sometimes TOO. So, if you’re learning a language that isn’t chinese, I’d recommend trying Idiom for free and seeing if it’s useful to you before shelving out money for anything paid. 

Not a reader, but there are two netflix dual subtitle chrome extensions that work really well for reading with a dictionary too, I’ll list them later when I look them up. These are ALSO available to use in many languages, so that’s nice. for both of the free dual subtitle extensions, Zhongwen also seems to work for them (if you ever want to look up a secondary definition).

Dictionary Apps:

Google Translate - good for drawing the characters, at least for me it has the easiest time recognizing what I’m trying to look up (I’m left handed and draw characters with my right on my phone so). When I’m watching tv its easy to open google and draw an unknown character in the app when I don’t know the pinyin. It usually only offers the most frequent/common definition, so it has limitations - but for a quick lookup of one word its usually convenient. For a quick gist of bigger chunks of text, google translate is also a quick way to do it although at least some words and phrases WILL probably be incorrect. 

Pleco Dictionary - this part of the pleco app is free. The definitions are the most thorough I’ve seen, and the easiest to get a meaningful definition if google translate is inadequate. Pleco’s definitions hands down seem to be the best. You have to pay for one of the packages to access the ability to draw characters to look them up, to access idiom translations, natural voice pronunciations, and a much more massive dictionary. I just bought it - and now I rarely have to use google translate. Only negative - have to look up things word by word, or by idiom/phrase. Other then that, it’s the best one probably.

Baidu Translate - also free. Biggest benefit is the ability to put a url in and have it machine translate the entire page. Like google, it’s very useful to get a quick gist of bigger chunks of text, and a handful of those words or phrases may be translated wrong. It’s fun to use it to translate english pages to chinese (again, some errors will crop up). It’s sometimes better than Google translate for looking up individual words, and phrases - but also has its limitations. 

Overall I use Baidu and Google for chunks of translations, and then Pleco or Zhongwen for specific words or phrases. It’s why I like using dual chinese/english mtlnovels.com in Pleco Reader - because then the big-chunk machine translated english is already provided (and the only thing Pleco Reader can’t do), and so I can just use pleco to go by word and phrase to get specific pieces of translation that are more accurate. 

I use Google translate or Pleco Dictionary for looking up words by drawing characters - but this is only a free feature in Google translate (and honestly I think Google translate recognizes my handwriting better - so I usually use Google, then if the definition isn’t helpful I copy paste the text version of the word into pleco dictionary). 

[rigelmejo]

Ok adjustment to suddenly no flashcards is strangely weird I think it’s cause I grinded too much. On the upside, if I suddenly slack off then it’s not like it was a priority ovo)/

So I got the better version of the SpoonFed Chinese anki deck today, it’s 8000 cards. A lot of it is very basic for me. but I figure it’s still good comprehension practice, good for reviewing words I know in context (instead of in isolation), good for me practicing shadowing and production, good for me practicing seeing correct grammar.

I’m using the settings: good for good, again for the ones I need review. I heard that’s the best for the “Lazy Anki” mass immersion approach setup. I am also using easy for the cards I ALREADY KNOW completely. Because it’s fine if their intervals are huge - I know them already. Also I would like to normally use the option of 20 cards a day. I’m just bulking it up rn because I know most of the sentences and want to speed through all the completely known ones.

I’m toggling with the deck a bit - because when I learn the deck it gives me very basic sentences I could probably skip. But when I went through it in the Browse area and tried to ‘suspend’ cards I knew so I can save them in case I want them, but have them not be in my learning/reviews - I saw a lot of sentences that went from simple to complex fast! Like 1 new word or grammar point building from the prior sentence. So together studied in order, every sentence is easy - but if I came across one right away, it might have 3-4 things I don’t know in it. I’m not sure if it takes a couple hundred cards in to start seeing this? But I figure if these cards are really building off each other, I might as well just keep most of them. Even the ones I know completely are good production practice and good review. I’m also contemplating ‘suspending’ all the Card 2 types In my deck that prompt with English first. I decided ultimately to leave them for now - since they give me practice on production. But if I find they bother me, I’m suspending them since they just cover the same material twice.

Anyway flashcard wise, I figured this deck is simple and easy to stick to. It covers stuff I can use, and it’s easy to study. I do think the Pleco pre made sentence decks I have are good (maybe even better for ME since the difficulty spikes quicker and my brain learns when its being challenged a lot and loves to slack when it’s not). But I don’t like using flashcards in Pleco for srs much. I prefer to use it like a big notebook of words I know/am studying/etc. Also i guess just mentally, it lets me keep seeing Pleco as my reading/notes/reference area. I like to keep it separate from srs flashcards I guess since... I usually hate flashcards, but love Pleco a lot lol.

I also was trying out my Chinese Grammar deck on anki - it’s a great deck. This one again has sentences mostly of stuff I know and understand - but this one is focused on grammar patterns and I think it’s a bit helpful for improving my production and grammar understanding. Along with just being more review of things I know. I also have a Hanzi deck on anki with simplified and traditional - idk how I feel about it or if I’ll use it. It’s not mnemonic containing, it’s just ordered on frequency, but I do like that it includes traditional so I can see both. Ultimately, these are just optional things I’m checking out. These two decks are free.

The SpoonFed Chinese deck has a free version - which I used to use and is perfectly useful so I recommend it. The big drawback I guess with it, was it seemed to occasionally have the same issues Clozemaster sentences have - since a beginner made it the sentences came from a bigger site source and if there were mistakes they were unedited, also the audio is compressed and sounds a bit harsh (but usable). If you look up the deck it shows up on anki, and the shared deck page also includes the creator’s link to the paid version they made. The paid version is $4 (or more if you’d like to tip etc). Its the version of the deck that’s been gone through for errors (so significantly less errors), for usefulness, so that the sentences are more sequentially I+1 instead of only sometimes I+1, the audio is WAY better.

It’s clear the creator went through it with more language experience, and they stated their Chinese wife also helped go through this version of the deck. I do think as I’m going through it, its noticeably better organized than the original was. Most noticeably though, I think the material is a little more thematically coherent and the difficulty curve is much more steady - it reads almost like the difficulty progression of some paid course or some college classes I’ve taken. This might make it easier for beginners to start it.

In the 4$ version of the deck I started today, my 20 cards basically introduced some ‘new’ words in simple sentences, then in more complex sentences with new grammar happening, and over time with new words added. It felt well structured like a purposeful course rather then a random list of sentences organized by ‘word frequency’ and length’ without much further work. The original deck is mostly like this too, just bulkier, and with a bit more of a chaotic I+1 organization where some chunks of sentences are all completely comprehensible them suddenly there’s a chunk of I+i sentences mixed in with totally new unknown sentences and I+2 or more type sentences. I think how well organized the 4$ version is... definitely motivates me to study more. Also I do think, If you had ZERO prior chinese knowledge of Hanzi or vocab words, the new structure helps guide you through learning the sentences much easier.

Also, just in general, the person who made the deck put instructions up as well on how to download and install it, how to change certain settings if you prefer, what to study beforehand if you have zero prior knowledge (it links to pinyin and tones), and I just really appreciated how thought out the instructions and notes were. Again, it makes it much easier as a beginner (and easier for me since I know almost nothing about anki and dearly needed the instructions today lol).

Lol this is all assuming... I stick to using anki instead of dropping it like always >o> we’ll see

Here’s the original deck on its page on anki: https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/867291675

Here’s the edited $4 deck: https://gumroad.com/products/IEmpwF

And, if you are wondering, no I still didn’t buy the $25 dollar anki app for iPhone. I’m just using the mobile website anki, as usual. Maybe life would be easier if I used the app but oh well. As far as I’ve heard there’s not a noticeable enough difference...

[rigelmejo]

i found the little prince on the same site i found xiao mao stories on, so that’s great. i can now look up words by clicking them. so of course i did what i tend to do - and i reread chapters 1-3 actually looking up all the unknown words. It can’t hurt as review I suppose? And I comprehend things a lot more clearly the second time reading through. 

...although I know I am... defeating the point of extensive reading if I’m... intensive reading lol. Although... eventually the two things merge when you don’t have to look many words up? ;-; maybe?

anyway in a few days I’m gonna do my goals met post or whatever and. All I know is WHATEVER my study plan was? It ended up becoming lots of extensive reading (chinese), audio (chinese, french), flashcards (japanese). Also some miscellaneous writing (chinese), and writing/grammar reading (japanese)... but to be fair it was not very much.

 I also got so much done I’m really proud of myself tbh. Like. For japanese I got 318 grammar flashcards done, 430 vocabulary flaschards done. To me that is a big deal because once I passed 300 grammar cards, 100 vocabulary cards, I officially had reviewed all of the japanese I had studied years ago and moved onto completely new material for me. That just blows my mind. I reviewed roughly what I used to know in like 2 months maybe? And now I’m learning genuinely mostly new material which is so cool to me. Also I know that years ago I started reading manga and playing video games Before I covered this much studying, so at this point I am more prepared than I was last time I did it. For whenever I choose to do it again. 

The main thing that I think was not a success was listening reading method. I want to do it so bad, I like it in concept, I need listening comprehension improvements, and I like reading! But genuinely the fact I have to stay on the task for long durations of time is just so freaking hard for me. I have been able to do it in 20 minute bursts, but I still overall NEED like 1 hour a day along with the ‘breaks in between’ if I want to finish at a decent stopping point I can start from again later. It is really hard to do if I have anything else significant planned for the day. Maybe I will try it one weekend day or one day off. I realize now why the person who initially explained the idea tended to do listening reading for 8-10 hours a day for a week to a month. It is MUCH easier to do if you can do it for long periods of time - if for no other reason than KEEPING PLACE in text is so much easier if you DONT have to leave the text regularly. And then also, so much of its learning method involves repetition of common word usage of the book, so lots of consistent regular input of the words (like doing it a week to month straight) will provide more regular review of words than doing it one hour every week. 

I want to try this method so badly, and I think it would help my chinese a lot at any level (since I still have a long way to go before I have a “natural listening” ability of material of that complexity), or my french (because I know a lot reading wise I just need to turn that into listening comprehension). I have had some success doing step 2 of the listening reading method - and I know its simply because when text matches the audio it is so much EASIER to stop doing it, return later, and easily find your place to continue from. However, the issue with step 2 is - while it allows me to improve listening comprehension of words I know, it does not allow me to pick up new words as easily. And genuinely I DO think step 3 helps more with listening comprehension - because you have to rely so much on listening comprehension ALONE to follow where you are in the text (its also why that step feels so intense and is so hard to keep your place in). 

So anyway. Step 2 has been quite easy, and I have actually managed to do it a bit this month. But step 3 is just. So difficult for me to get myself to do. For Francais Par Le Methode Nature, now that audio exists I’m basically listening to that and then also reading along with the text when I miss a word (which is more just comprehensible input with a transcript?). With MoDu, I listening to the audio while reading the chinese and glancing at the english for some key definitions (I don’t feel it challenged me to practice listening very much though). With the little prince, I played chinese audio and followed along to the text (mostly to match sound to new words I picked up when I read beforehand). With the xiao mao smiling cat story, I also played audio after I read it, to match audio up with new words I’d picked up - that time by listening then glancing at the text when I didn’t recognize a word when listening. So yeah like, I have been doing variations on step 2 sort of, so I suppose I’ll see if it produces any significant benefits for reading or listening. I also listened to tianyake audiodrama yesterday without looking at the subs and that was cool because it was a test of my actual listening comprehension a little (except easier to follow since I know the story).

I also think doing L R with a parallel text is much easier - again, because you can easily keep track of where you are in the audio so for people like me who NEED 10 minute breaks constantly it makes the activity much easier. I am using a parallel text for MoDu now and I think that’s why I was able to do about an hour and 30 minutes this week. I was doing sort of step 2 (so it was easier), and I had a parallel text so I didn’t get confused.

other notes?

In a way I’m glad I studied primarily simplified chinese, because it kind of helps me keep japanese more firmly ‘separate’ in my head. Some japanese kanji look like the simplified, many look like the traditional hanzi, and some I think may be simplified in a different manner. Japanese kanji do not mean exactly the same thing usually, and their multiple pronunciations can get confusing for me. So when the kanji looks different from the hanzi - i recognize traditional hanzi somewhat, so I can usually still recognize them and their meaning, but I don’t immediately think of them when I’m writing/typing/reading chinese unless I’m on a traditional text website/novel/show. So when I see the more traditional looking kanji, I can usually recognize them if its a familiar character, but my brain doesn’t so automatically jump to its chinese pronunciation. Which kind of helps me to keep my japanese pronunciations Separated from my chinese ones. Right now some of the hardest words for me to remember the pronunciation of are when the kanji are the same as a chinese simplified word (全然， 全部，方向). They’re easy to remember the definition of, but the pronunciations that come to my mind are pretty much automatically chinese.  

Also the Nukemarine LLJ decks are really helping, there’s a reason I like using them ToT. All the vocabulary is presented individually, then in sentence examples, all with audio. And lots of audio and reading practice so I can practice both. The grammar decks, which go along with Tae Kim’s Grammar Guide, are more challenging but understandable even without referencing tae kim’s grammar guide (which is great cause i’m too lazy right now to read a grammar guide). Mostly though, I just love the improvement I see from it? It’s structured well, so you get a lot of grammar foundation, kanji foundation, vocab foundation, and the different courses reinforce each other. 

I recently opened clozemaster to try the japanese fast track again - every so often my mind wonders if I could learn a significant amount from Clozemaster alone lol and I want to test it. I do genuinely think if you used Clozemaster it would work as well as that old 10k chinese or japanese sentence srs flashcards methods (which did work for people they just sound awful if you hate flashcards like me). Sometimes I use clozemaster as a ‘graded reader substitute’ to bridge the gap in my reading skills so I can push into reading native material easier. I did that for french and it helped a lot then I stopped using it once I could read novels. I did that with chinese and it helped a little. But I read in chinese so much I ultimately study more stuff when I just read so now my actual vocab is ahead of where I am in clozemaster when I try it for chinese lol. So like... usually I read it as an upper-beginner aid to break into reading target language materials that aren’t for learners. 

Well, I love contemplating if I could just learn a language FROM clozemaster sentences primarily as the study method though lol. Well, once I tried testing that with japanese years ago! It was brutal! I was a mid-beginner who’d studied for 1-2 years, and it was brutal! So many unknown kanji, unknown grammar, it was a mess lol! Just barely doable, would not recommend trying as a complete beginner. Well this week I tried to use Clozemaster japanese again - and it went super easy. One unknown word a sentence, or no unknown words and I marked the sentences mastered. The ideal difficulty for using clozemaster to improve, and I did not find the sentence grammar or kanji too intense to figure out. So the Nukemarine LLJ studying is helping a lot. I must have a bigger base of understanding than I did last time I tried clozemaster japanese, just because the activity is so much easier.

and an observation about me? I am super motivated by challenges apparently. Specifically when I hear something’s been done, worked, and then want to test it myself to see if it does. It’s why I was able to study 2k chinese words last year - someone else did those specific words, then started reading, and I wanted to know if I could copy that (it did help, though in retrospect there’s slightly easier ways lol!). 

This month? I read some stuff about how graded readers help with reading speed - now bam I am devouring easier reading materials (I read 53 chapters so far this month, counting shorter graded readers as 1 for ever two chapter chunks). I realize the reading material is much easier for half of this, so its closer to 30 chapters read in terms of length - but that’s still a good amount of reading in a month! And I finished reading 3 books this month! Also I read recently that extensive reading helps with vocabulary, and making future reading easier. So SINCE extensive reading is so much easier with these books more to my level, I’m testing that by reading a LOT lol. And that tip also motivated me to find an ease rating for what I’m reading/plan to read, which I’m sure will help me pick reading material in the future more based on actual needs. Like if I want to intensive read I can pick a ‘harder’ text, if I want to extensive read I can pick an easier rated text closer to my current ‘ease’ level (or a little harder), or if I want to extensive read something hard I can know its hard and read a translation beforehand. Basically just... the info I found about extensive reading really MOTIVATED me into doing it. 

There’s finally audio of Francais Par Le Method Nature, and even that motivated me to listen to multiple chapters to just test if the book works! I know the book works, I’ve read like 200 pages of it before and its basically a huge factor in what helped me move into novels from graded readers in french... its dated but I love the book so much and wish the same technique style textbooks were in more languages. I read the preface yesterday, which is so much easier for me to read now versus when I first read it lol which just shows it helped once. And it covers 3000 words chosen from frequency indexes, introduces everything in french in a manner to help students comprehend the meaning from its context, includes a pronunciation line guide below text (though now that audio exists its so nice to use!). This book’s designed to get a learner able to move onto target language materials for native speakers afterwards, and it SHOWS. I never even completed the book and only read it and it helped so much. I’m finally listening to it now, and in awe of how comprehensible the audio on its own is. Anyway this book’s concept always felt like something I wanted to test and proved if it worked so, if I have time...

Nukemarine’s LLJ i’m pretty good at sticking to, because its structured and has a claim about what I’ll be able to do when I’m toward the end of it - read japanese. The courses used to be called Standard Guide to Japanese Literacy SGJL. They were originally made to help japanese learners push into reading - and a lot of the related immersion tips/activity that go along with the guide also contribute. I imagine it got renamed something more general - Lets Learn Japanese LLJ - either because it wasn’t quite enough for novel reading, or it made more sense to call it something broader. 

I would love to have the motivation to test Listening Reading Method and prove if it works or not and how much ToT. It frustrates me so much I can’t remain focused long enough to do it multiple hours a day (whereas shows and books I can, since I can take breaks easily between moments). I already tested several hours doing it (specifically step 3), and I can confirm it at least improves listening comprehension of what you already partly-know. The little L R i have been able to do, boosted my listening comprehension of shows/audiobooks/audio dramas NOTICEABLY within a few hours of doing it, and with every few more hours I do it. So as a upper-beginner/low-intermediate learner (?) L R step 3 helps a lot with dragging listening skill up to match reading skill. And it doesn’t take much to see benefits. But I haven’t done L R enough to test how much totally new material you can learn from doing it - I’ve done enough to pick up a few words and phrases, but most of the benefit was half-learned words becoming more fully learned and instantly recognized in listening instead of requiring me to pause and think and get lost.