#...don't even get me started on Miracle Molly. the other character created by Tynion who's just blatantly Joker-coded

[distort-opia]

You're braver than me for mentioning Khoa and Joker parallel in this hellsite that very much hate Joker lol. Im holding myself back from pointing out the same thing everytime i read Khoa story in fear someone gonna attack me. But anyway what do you think are the differences between their relationship (ghostbat & batjokes) since they're quite similar with each other. Cause tbh with you the way many describe ghostbat here feel just like they're describing batjokes instead

Ngl, this is one of the things that both depresses me and pisses me off about the current state of fandom. It sucks to hear you're too afraid of getting attacked over expressing a personal opinion on a literal blogging platform, built for this express purpose... regarding fictional characters and within a fandom, which is supposed to be fun. The block button and the filtering options exist for a reason though; I tag my stuff accurately so that people can blacklist, and I don't mind if people block me (I'm quite liberal with it myself). It's just part of curating your little niche, so I definitely encourage doing the same, Anon. Besides, despite the hellsite having its downsides, I've interacted with very reasonable and fun people as well, who dislike Joker or Batjokes but are fully capable of treating others with maturity and respect.

That being said, I agree that Batjokes and Ghostbat share a lot of similarities. I guess that for some it affords the fascinations of this type of dynamic for Bruce without the baggage Joker's character would unavoidably bring (both within Universe, and within fandom). However, there's definitely some essential differences between Ghostbat and Batjokes. Perhaps the most important consequence of them is that unlike Batjokes, Ghostbat has significantly higher chances of not ending in tragedy.

The thing about Joker is that, despite how seemingly desperate for attention and in love with Batman he canonically is, he also... hates Bruce's guts. And I'm making the distinction between 'Batman' and 'Bruce' because Joker himself makes it. Joker needs Batman on a fundamental level. He perceives his own current identity as having been shaped and defined by Batman, and he sees Bruce, the person underneath the mask, as the source of potential weakness and a threat to the Bat's existence. That's because Joker thinks of his own humanity as useless and weak, having decided to discard it and stomp it out. He then proceeds to try and do the same with Bruce's. This has literally been their main conflict since Death of the Family onwards.

Khoa also takes issue with Bruce being driven by emotion. He also considers it a weakness-- Bruce's need to save people, his vigilantism having revenge at its roots instead of a desire to perfect an art. However, Ghostmaker wasn't a direct result of Bruce's actions (accidental or not), like Joker is. Khoa's identity is much more stable and independent, not irrevocably intertwined with Bruce's Batman to the pathological degree Joker's is; and as a result, he's less extreme about it. Khoa can allow for disagreement without resorting to destroying Bruce's life, whereas Joker (at least of now) cannot allow any compromises, any pause from conflict-- because he needs it. Khoa, however, is able to stop and make peace. He challenges Bruce and his need for control just enough, right up to the point of fully enabling Bruce's darkness and self-destructiveness. Joker never stops. He keeps escalating the trauma, the horrors; a pit of knives Bruce keeps throwing himself into.

In a way, shipping Ghostbat is indulging in a dynamic similar to Batjokes, but one that can have a happier ending. Bruce can be a person with Khoa, whereas Joker would tear vulnerability to shreds. The parallels between Joker War and Ghostmaker's introduction arc are so interesting to me also because they showcase this from the start. The final confrontation with Joker, in Batman (2016) #100, has Joker stab Bruce in the back and then almost cut his face off, talking about how he'd then have "to start from scratch." Joker is tearing everything down to have Bruce rebuild it-- alone. The final confrontation with Khoa also includes him telling Bruce he's not enough, he's weak, he needs to become stronger; it also includes being stabbed in the back, but while in a fair fight that has rules. And then Bruce wakes up to Khoa sowing up the wounds he himself inflicted.

That's the crucial difference between the ships, I would say. Despite their disagreements, Bruce and Khoa are on the same side, and Bruce can expect to survive showing weakness to Khoa. Joker is, paradoxically, on the side of Batman alone and also against Bruce. That's not to say it couldn't be different, and that a happier ending is impossible to imagine for them too-- but it's a lot more complicated. Personally, I enjoy Batjokes so much because of how difficult a relationship would be. It inevitably has to involve Joker allowing himself to be human (since otherwise he would not allow Batman to be) and that's such a heavy and complex deconstruction of trauma that's fascinating to delve into.

Hope this was interesting to read through! There's a lot more stuff to say about the differences between Khoa and Joker as characters and their brand of psychopathy, and how that impacts the dynamic with Bruce, but I'm waiting for Batman Inc. and their interaction there to see where DC takes it. (Please let it be good.)