#ALSO im being snarky but i do genuinely love the narrative decision to not give ellie a choice

[lasarcasticpanda]

yessssssssssss

i got worried when they brought in ellie conscious cause like, part of what made the ending of the first game work is that NO ONE asked ellie.

marlene talks about how it would be what ellie would want, but didnt actually give her a chance to voice that and, added for the show, it echoes the hypocrisy and the pain of kathleen yelling at henry about believing the world revolves around his brother while she literally hunted him down for hers.

it's the "no one giving ellie a choice" - it doesn't matter if she would agree with you, cause you knocked her tf out before you could even give her a chance to breathe.

joel did the same, but the difference is, if joel did talk to ellie, he would've let her. he wouldn't survive it, but he would've let her.

but if marlene was wrong about ellie? and ellie WOULDNT agree to it? i don't know that i think marlene would respect that. which i like about her character, it makes her dynamic and a good mirror AND foil for joel.

of course, this is speculation. because she didn't actually give ellie a choice.

and neither did joel. "i thought you deserved a choice" bullshit with ellie and tommy but not when it comes to the greater meaning to your painful journey.

i love it. i love the complexity and the nuance and the complicated love that exists in all of it, the undercurrent of it all.

because while i agree ellie would probably undergo the surgery, i still think, if she puts her impressive emotional intelligence to the forefront, she'll understand if she did, it would mean the end of joel. and i think that fact would make her hesitate at the bare minimum or say no at the max.

of course, this is hypothetical, since no one actually asked her - which is what helps make this ending work.

anyway, ashley johnson giving birth to ellie in every way has me sobbing.

[dimples-of-discontent]

(part 1) im gonna preface by saying sorry if you've answered this before or it's obvious, but I wanted your opinion on something. I can't really read Misha at all when it comes to Destiel. I wanted to know if you think Misha plays Cas as being in love with Dean? Do you think Misha sees that relationship or is too in the moment to view it the way we do (similar to Jensen). I'm asking because I know he has gotten questions about it before and something that is obvious 9/10 times when he answers...

(part 2) is that he turns it into something sexual. I know he obviously wont say either way whether for higher up backlash or simply because he’s Misha, but I never got if that is just his wink wink to the fans because he’s supportive of our beliefs or he thinks that we only see sex so he’s like yeah perverts. He genuinely seems insightful at times and I do love the way he has described their relationship on several occasions. i know a few years ago there was a moment where, if i remember…

(part 3) correctly might have been one of the only times he answered without really joking? he seemed incredibly in tune with the audience talking about it but there seemed to be a sad/awkward air to his words. most of the things i have seen are from a few years ago though (pre-season 11) and we have gotten some incredibly deep destiel scenes since then so I guess im asking if you think he sees it, if so, when he might have started, if he thinks it now, if he thinks its just sexual, ect. thanks!“

Hi Nonnie,

First off, it sounds like you actually know a whole heck of a lot about Misha’s take on Destiel so I’m flattered that you would ask for my opinion on it too. I haven’t formulated a whole post about it, though I have reblogged and commented on some really great ones that I will also link you to here. 

I think it’s important to distinguish between Misha’s take on whether it is an intentional part of the show (do the writers write it that way? do he and Jensen play it that way?) vs. his response to fanfic and fandom commentary on Destiel. About the second, he tends to wear his snarky persona and call us perverts and joke about how “me and Jensen write most of that stuff anyway.” That’s easier. It’s a deflection. If faced with a question about intentionality and whether he thinks that the show has been amping up the romance tropes, it’s far safer to instead talk about the fan response and how “I would never have imagined seeing myself depicted giving so many blowjobs.” How much Cas fanart have you looked up Misha? FFS! 

So when, as you say, he immediately jumps to making things sexual I don’t at all think that it’s because he thinks that accurately reflects the way the character is written or how he plays him. After all, as recently as S10 he had Cas stare at a porn site and say, bemusedly, “What is ‘Fortune Nookie’?” (10x03). In 13x21 Cas was obviously embarrassed both by and about Gabriel and Rowena. And, as we learned from S12, the sacred oath that forbids human-angel sex must be very much on his mind. Now, some of us are of the opinion that this season in particular has been revealing Cas to have some understanding of or interest in sex even as an angel but YMMV on that one. But it’s safe to say that no matter how many jokes Misha makes about Cas being a creeper and perving on Dean he knows that that isn’t in the show. He’s responding to a particular, over-exaggerated fan version of Destiel. And he’s doing it because it’s safe.

It’s actually Misha’s standard deflection now because, in my opinion, not only do they want to avoid pissing people off but they are all bound by NDAs (non-disclosure agreements) of some kind when it comes to the actual show…but not when it comes to the fans. So he can say whatever he likes about fanfic or fanart or “what goes on on oil rigs” and neither risk offending people as deeply (since he’s clearly joking around) nor violating any contracts. I don’t know if he really thinks that all fanworks are all about sex. I think….perhaps. And, honestly, given the kinds of things people bring to cons for them to sign I can’t blame him. The linked post also shows how totally ok both he and Jensen are with smutty fanart, as does the infamous Cockles video that I’m adding here because, well, why not:

If you can’t hear the audio it’s Jensen describing two different pieces of fanart that they signed, one of which they drew penises on the other of which was already nsfw that he captioned, and laughing about it and draping himself all over Misha ew. 

But back to your original question, which was whether Misha plays Cas as being in love with Dean or sees that relationship as inherently romantic. I’m actually just going to flat out answer: he does. Misha is an intelligent and sensitive reader (which is not to say the other actors, especially Jensen, are not but that Misha approaches the script as a reader in a way I don’t think Jensen does because his process is so different). I believe Misha has always seen that in the character. As @amwritingmeta​ discusses in this epic post on Jensen, Destiel, and Dean’s bisexuality:

“Misha started out talking rather openly about how Destiel is an intentional part of the narrative - almost going so far as to get pissy about how this was even a question, if rumours are to be believed - then less openly, until he, as early as last year, was scuttling around the Destiel question like it was on fire. Why? I would venture a complete guess and say that it’s most likely to do with all the negativity thrown his way whenever he’s engaged with it, accusations of queerbaiting flying at him and the show, when this couldn’t be farther away from what they’ve actually been doing all these years, delivering a narrative the likes of which has never been seen on television before.”

Comments he made about his initial decisions, staring at Jensen “as if I was looking into his soul”, and the teasing that he garnered, “We’re missing the gay angel,” indicate that he–and Jensen, fwiw–were fully aware of the homoerotic aspects of the character and his portrayal.

I think that the convention clip you’re thinking of might be this one from NJcon 2013 where Misha first says that he ought not to talk about it but then goes on to say that there is a “very profound bond” but that “I will leave you to read into that what you will” and remarks that he doesn’t want to be accused of queerbaiting, which he felt was unfair because he is such a supporter for the LGBTQ community overall. He’s absolutely sad there. He concludes by saying “It’s a lot of things. It’s deep and meaningful, you know. Is it love? Probably. What does that mean? It’s a million different things. I don’t know” which then becomes a joke about “you know, my boyfriend is a wavelength of celestial intent.” He ends by saying outright that “They love each other” before adding “but it’s purely sexual.” That backtracking is frustrating but totally characteristic because otherwise it’s just too definitive. (I’m gonna keep my tinhat in the closet on this one but I can’t help but murmur about actor bleed.)

By 2016, at DCcon, he was delighted to get out of the Destiel question by having West throw balls at him. He talks about how he was discouraged from even mentioning that relationship when he came on the show and how he then flouted that rule because he didn’t see the point. The implication, though, is that he now does see why he shouldn’t discuss it and I can only imagine that a lot of it has to do with the vitriol that often came his way. Most of his answer is a joke on this panel, “How would you approach it if it happened” becomes “face-forward” and “How would you set the scene” becomes a seduction joke. Rich and Rob are there to help out and keep the carnival atmosphere going. (Cockles sidebar: I had never noticed that he answers the question of “How would you set the scene” with “In another language; in Russian.” CAN YOU SAY ACCENT KINK??) That’s a huge difference from 2013′s serious answer, though it’s not easy to tell whether that change is due to something contractural about the show or Misha’s own desire to avoid upset. I kind of think the second.

His most recent comments are from Seacon 2018 where he says that he could “go on and on and on” with his thoughts about Destiel and that he and Jensen do have conversations about it. He again uses it as an opportunity to talk about the fandom response and reflect on changes in attitude within the fandom not on the show…which is interesting, of course, but not really what we are fishing for. As he says at the end he gets in trouble with someone no matter what he says on the topic. And then he will deflect with a joke (”Jensen and I don’t write a ton of Destiel fanfic”) before giving us a tiny glimmer of hope (”because we live it all the time”). The whole cast is certainly much more open about it than they used to be, even Jensen. And I’m not sure whether or not that can be attributed to the deeper Destiel scenes you mention or not. I do think it would become much harder for them to deny the existence of a romantic element and that the way they are coping with that is pure humor.

I hope that helps a little. It’s a very complex question, since it’s bound up with so many other things about the show and about Misha’s character and his relationship to the fans. (I have tags for both “misha and destiel” and “misha about destiel” if you want more.) I agree with you that he is the most in tune with the fan view of the relationship and supportive of it as an interpretation. I think he’s either not legally able to say more about it or, perhaps, is too conditioned not to by previous negative reactions from the fans. His jokes that make it sexual, or refer to fandom and not the show, are simply a clever deflection and one which he does much better than either Jared or Jensen (though Jensen has learned from Misha and gotten markedly less defensive in general, e.g. “There will now be fanfiction written about what goes on on oil rigs” “Don’t let us down”).

My gut feeling is that, yes, Misha has seen the romantic element since Day 1 and that lines like “I love you. I love all of you” and “I know who you love” confirm for him that it is there for Cas. I think that he supports that reading of their relationship but we will likely never get to hear him say that…unless something miraculous happens on the show so that he feels free to.