#Also I'm even brainstorming names which is nice considering that I'm not even playing the character😶‍🌫️

[salsedinepicta]

WIP Whenever

Tagged by the ever lovely @greypetrel 💙✨ thank youuu!

These past weeks have not been the most productive ever from a creative point of view - but I'm almost done with the Unnamed Lavellan thingy! I just need to figure out if I like the dark frame or not.

(I've also sketched another portrait because I like that hairstyle with the braid, that's it that's the reason)

I've also started to sketch the other prompt (mythology inspired yasss), so have a spoiler AKA the visuals™

I'm too tired to think of people to tag, but if YOU want to share something - please go ahead and consider yourself tagged by me!

[writingwithcolor]

(to preface: i myself am not jewish) i have a character i'm coding as jewish, as explicitly as possible without saying 'jewish' (due to this being a sci-fi/fantasy world where earth doesn't exist), and i have a couple of questions. first of all, does him being a rich (and somewhat socially oblivious) nobleman closely related to a royal family play into any stereotypes i should avoid? he's the only jewish-coded main character, but i'd make it clear that he isn't the only jewish person. (1/2)

(2/2) second, is it better to use existing real-world names of customs / holidays, or would it be better to invent my own? i feel weird saying 'Chanukah' bc i'm trying to avoid real-life names, but i don't want to step on any toes by explicitly describing the character as celebrating Chanukah but calling it something else. (also, links to other posts about explicitly jewish-coding characters would be much appreciated! i tried searching wwc but there's a lot that doesn't fit my particular needs)

Jewish-coded character, holidays and avoiding stereotypes 

Jewish coding in fantasy

I’m curious what your motivation is for coded representation, rather than having it be more undeniable. Because coding can lead to, well, A Series Of Unfortunate Reactions - in other words, people arguing that it's not there at all. In other words, without a certain amount of obvious in-canon evidence, there will always be people on the outside saying "oh, they're not Jewish! You're just reading into it" and people on the inside feeling insecure about this fun thing they've discovered maybe just being in their heads.

I’m sure you’ve heard this before but we pride ourselves on healthy internal disagreement so there are probably people who like coded representation in SFF and people who need it spelled out more explicitly to feel validating. I think I fall somewhere in the middle; I never used the word “Jewish” in any of the five Mangoverse books but the holidays are named instead of vague allusions to “Festival of Lights” (which would be a good workaround, for Chanukah.) So they are undeniably Jewish but since I don't use the actual words "Jewish", "Yiddish", or "Hebrew", it's always possible that might bother someone.

--Shira

What does being Jewish mean in your story?

Shira, I know that you have a lot more experience than me writing this kind of fantasy, so I'll leave that part up to you. I'm personally a bit confused by the idea of Jewish-coding in a universe where Earth doesn't exist...like all of Jewish history and all the stories in the Torah took place on Earth; without those, in what sense are the characters Jewish? But 'Jewish identity' is obviously such a broad and diverse concept that there probably is still a way, I just haven't understood it.

-- Shoshi  

More on Jewish coding in fantasy settings

I address some of that (where did the Torah stories take place if there's no Earth etc.) in this post about explicitly coding fantasy characters as Jewish -- that to me it was more important to give us the ability to share the SFF playground with everyone else than for it to make sense. But you ARE right that it makes the specifics of the fictionalized version of the tradition hard to pin down. OP, is that the post you were looking for? Even the general examples are very fantasy-centric not sci-fi, but it might help you brainstorm.

--Shira

As far as Jewish-coding in a (non-Earth-based) fantasy setting, I personally get a lot out of it. It's nice to feel like the things we do aren't always considered alien. Like, is it that weird to want to get the blood out of your meat? Or to count days from sunset instead of sunrise? Those aren't impossible for other peoples to come up with independently, and therefore be reflected in the text. It can be comforting to see people doing things that echo our traditions, even where it's (perhaps technically) out of context. Then too, there are books that bridge the scifi/fantasy genres. One series in particular had a ship crash on a planet, and the people from the ship had to start a low-tech civilization to survive (the books largely were fantasy after that). Why shouldn't some of those survivors be Jewish?

In fantasy, at least what has been broadly available, so much is Christian-coded. There are so many fantasy books with mid-winter festivals, with gifts, and trees... it's easy to get the impression that that's just the default, but it isn't. We (and a lot of other groups) are proof that things can  work differently. So I love to see our habits, culture, etc mirrored in worlds that might otherwise have been another Christian-coded carbon copy of Earth, simply because we exist here, so people like us can exist in the writing too.  

-- Dierdra

Thanks guys, all really interesting thoughts! While I'm personally not sure how I feel about the idea that there would still have been a Jewish nation if no one had been enslaved in Egypt, and no Torah had ever been given at Mt Sinai, I can see how this wouldn't be a problem for other Jewish people. It depends on whether your Jewish identity is primarily based on belief, community, tradition or something else, and it all shows what a diverse community we are.

Dierdra, I can definitely see where you're coming from about normalising our practices. To me it's helpful at this point to differentiate between types of world building. The ship crash story you mentioned follows future descendants of current life on Earth, by the sound of things? In that way, it's similar to a lot of other world-building stories, especially dystopias like The Hunger Games. In that kind of set-up, it definitely makes sense to have Jewish characters be among the survivors of our current civilisation who show up in the future society too. And I agree with the reasons for saying that it's best to make them Jewish as explicitly as possible. Alternatively, there are parallel world stories that don't follow the real Earth but take place in a world that is still recognisable as Earth - Shira, it looks like we both automatically thought of the Snicket universe for that! Again, having explicitly Jewish characters makes total sense. And once again, explicit Jewishness is perfectly possible because words like ‘bar mitzvah’ and ‘hamantaschen’ can be among the words that are exactly the same as in our world, along with ‘sugar bowl’ and ‘peppermints’.  

I think what OP is asking about though is a more distantly parallel world where nothing that we would recognise as Earth exists. And I would say that this is potentially where it gets complicated. Because I agree with the other mods that for many Jewish readers it's super valuable to see our way of life reflected in these kinds of worlds and those readers deserve that experience, so from that perspective it's best to simply not over-think it and just go for it. On the other hand, I think for a non-Jewish author going down this route, it will be useful to be aware that you MAY be stepping on some Orthodox toes because the Torah as we know it can't be 'true' in your book's universe, so having Jewish characters may be uncomfortable for some. I think that Shira and Dierdra have given some great tips on how you could do this in a way that validates your Jewish characters and readers, but there is that other side that should be given a little consideration outside of an OwnVoices piece. Does that make sense?

-Shoshi

Just to add to the end -- if someone were to ask me if there were an Egypt in my secondary-world fantasy, my answer would be "yeah, sure, uhhh HANDWAVEY HANDWAVEY." In other words, I'm not sure I'm ready to commit to the idea that there's NO "Mitzrayim" for us to have to "litziat" from in whatever space Perach exists in. But I can see how this is a more important question to answer when it's a case of literally another planet far away in outer space. (Thank you for indulging an author's very specific post-script!)

--Shira

Rich nobleman Jewish character

What I did want to come back to was your question about stereotypes with a rich nobleman Jewish character. Yes, this is definitely a 'proceed with caution' type of set-up. A Jewish character with wealth and power isn't something a non-Jewish author can never write, but it does instantly put you on thin ice. If the character is also an antagonist/mostly unlikeable, then you're going to have a problem. I wasn't sure what you meant by 'socially oblivious'? Are you talking about social justice, or social situations? If it's the former, I would again say this is something to avoid. A nobleman character who has the opportunity to learn about/challenge social injustice, but doesn't, is complicit in it. This would then fall into the stereotype of your Jewish character being the evil puppet-master who is oppressing the masses.

If he's just socially awkward, that could be a fun quirk to add to your character as long as they're basically a likeable person. It would make them relatable, while in a way being the opposite of what the reader might expect, as you might think they would have over-inflated self-esteem if they've been raised as nobility. Stereotypes to be cautious of there are things like the infantalised Jewish man who is still dependent on his mother, or if he's the only beta male surrounded by physically stronger men. You should basically be fine with a socially awkward character though, but I would say that a Jewish character with the type of resources you're describing should make a point of using them for the good of the world to avoid the string-pulling stereotype.

-- Shoshi

I definitely think that any time there is a Jewish, or Jewish-coded character in power, or with access to people in power, there is a responsibility for the author to examine each word, and their own intentions.

-- Dierdra

Trace your logic

Given the wealthy nobleman angle I return to "what is your motivation" - ? I'm not saying you necessarily went "oh a wealthy person! Let's make them Jewish" -- maybe you had the idea because your faceclaim is a hot Jewish actor, or the character is inspired by a close friend IRL. But it's always a good idea to interrogate your thought processes. What's Colette always saying, "trace your logic", right? Just something to think about. Because if it ends up being trope based, with no other motivation, he doesn't really need to be Jewish and that sorts out your "there's no Earth" coding problem right there. 

-- Shira

[lovenona]

LONG ask ahead, sorry T^T

*arrives in a hurry after 2-3 days* *slow, appreciative clap at the ted talk* sweetie, have you got any idea how much i adore hearing you ramble about the creation process??? seeing the whole love and dedication you hold for the odyssey makes my day! (and nooo, i'm totally not reading it again bc i want to have all of it in mind for tomorrow and bc it inspires me to no end hahaha what do you mean :) )

here comes yet another question: what kind of powers do you possess to write so beautifully. your writing literally punches me in the gut every single time, even the simplest of things!! it's hauntingly beautiful and i'm living for it!

(and another one) how did you find out how the odyssey was going to end?

also, it's rambling time because i've been thinking. (i do that sometimes.) each chapter title is a reference to a greek myth, and, in particular, odysseus' myth (no clue if i've written his name right, i've always knew him as "ulysse" in my mother tongue ^^;). and so my brain went: oooh nice, greek lore ^^ and then: yo wait. hold up. which brings me here: analysing the chapter titles. (bear with me please, and feel free to ignore my enthusiastic rambling/correct me if i'm wrong which i probs will)

so first, we have the prelude. david and calypso. while i'm sure david has his importance it's almost 1 am as i'm typing this so i'm going to focus on calypso. poor nymph is stuck in an island because of the will of gods for a reason i've forgotten. but here's the catch: while she cannot leave, others can come to her (good ol' odysseus for instance) until they leave her all alone again. and the cycle unfolds again and again. which brings us to a nice parallel with reader's situation at the beginnig. she, after all, is stuck on an island with no way out but stories. comes the dilf supreme toji aka an odysseus of sorts, until he leaves her. so she's alone again. calypso there illustrates a passive state of sorts. she cannot leave, or so she thinks: while she wants to, we don't see her try per se until sukuna comes in.

ah yes. sukuna’s arrival. chapter title: neptune’s hands. Neptune, god of the seas, all powerful, also known as Poseidon absolutely terrifying if provoked — which is something Odysseus did! well, man is smart enough not to do it to his face. but he did stab a cyclope, which happened to be neptune’s son. son who swore to a haughty Odysseus that he’d pay for it. in consequence: instead of going back to Ithaca without that much of trouble, Neptune goes: nope mate, and promptly sabotage his return (with a storm who leads his ship astray if my memory is correct). Neptune serves as a catalyst in here, to properly start the action. and it so happens to be sukuna’s role! he is, as well, the one who starts reader’s journey — well, odyssey in this case ;) — by making her this offer. plus, if we consider reader as being calypso, a nymph, and sukuna as being Neptune, a god, it shows their difference in power. sukuna is a fearsome curse, captain whose name is enough to strike fear in the cruellest pirate, who can and will kill reader should he get bored of her. reader is but a printer’s apprentice, so weak compared to him it hurts.

ah, yes. the narcissus pool aka siren gojo, aka me simping so hard for this man I might squirt with the mere mention of him. yes, siren gojo is that powerful, feel free to lure me in with them baby blues sweetie *blows him a kiss* hem. anyway. long story short, an oracle said: if narcissus sees his reflection, he’ll die. people prevent him from seeing himself. ofc man is so handsome it hurts and has women and men alike running after him, including a nymph named echo. he rejects her. hera is somehow involved in the mess and makes it so that he stumbles upon a river and sees himself. entranced by his beauty, he desperately tries to reach himself and stays near the river until he dies. this one is a bit trickier (especially considering I’m writing this as I go with no coherent preparation whatsoever but damn if I’m not having fun). but. *proceeds to read it again* *sighs in ‘why the hell ain’t siren!gojo real pls sir take me’* anyway. it’s never mentioned in narcissus’ myth, but I’m pretty sure he was tempted to look at himself. at least once, considering he could wonder why on earth all those people kept falling for his looks. (or he could be pretty dumb. let’s say he isn’t) so he’s tempted by his own reflection. just like reader’s tempted to follow segsy siren gojo. he doesn’t up until hera is involved and ends up seeing his reflection. he falls. not literally, but in love — with his own self. here it’s different (and the reason why i’m strugglingTM to gather coherent thoughts). gojo is the very embodiment of this temptation — so he acts as narcissus’ reflection here. he’s the one seducing reader, the one luring her until she falls in the waters, just like narcissus did. she didn’t die though, unlike him. (thank you sukuna. I guess. yes I would’ve given my life for gojo to consume me in both ways and??) now, this is very simp-tainted (sorry bout that ^^;) and the thing I’ve noticed is this: narcissus isn’t a character in the og odyssey. could it be bc to my absolute despair, gojo’s not as much of an important character as sukuna and toji? only you know!

(the hades, psyche analysis comes in tomorrow *looks @ time* *sees it's 1 AM* well, later on! have a lovely night/day!)

- the LRE (who's very happy tumblr allowed her to do paragraph breaks/to have a pirate history book recommandation! thanks about that one btw, it'll come in handy for a ff of mine (yeah it involves pirate gojo))

wait this is so precious n thoughtful oh my gosh 😭 thoughts n vibes under the cut :’) 

first of all THANK U!!!??? ur making me blush out here omg my hEART 😭 

as for ur first question, ur SO SWEET n IM LOSING IT bye i genuinely don’t know i just scream and throw a bunch of commas and metaphors everywhere and somehow things happen 💀 i read a lot (english major vibes) and it’s very helpful because i tend to imitate writers/phrases/books that inspire me while i'm figuring out how i want to write !! 

secondly: how did i figure out the ending of the odyssey??

answer: i think i just stumbled across this one 😭 i was brainstorming w my bestie (@/suedebunn) n she originally suggested a different version of the ending that i was like “oh wait” and then i played with it for awhile until i arrived at the version i have now ! i want to tell u more about how i arrived from point A to point B and what the process was but i will withhold because i am not giving anything away >:)

onto ur TITLE ANALYSIS!! this is SPECTACULAR! ur pretty much on the nose for all of them god damn i don’t have much to add :’) i’ll give u some of my takes tho!!

david and calypso – ur absolutely on the nose for the calypso aspect; david’s just a passing nod to the pirates of the caribbean portrayal of davy jones and the doomed relationship between him and calypso (mirroring the doomed relationship between toji and reader since he leaves them) 

neptune’s hands – yes! yeah! sexy! pirate sukuna is being compared to a sea god!! also a minor teaser but sukuna’s hands are important symbolically ;-) 

narcissus pool – ur brain is so big here god damn 🤲 narcissus is more of a loose reference to the idea of pride/ temptation and also hollowness/mirages (the emptiness of a reflection versus the tangibility of the real thing) so it’s not immediately a reference to the odyssey itself or even the myth (i'm taking creative liberties bye homer) but probably the best entity to use when describing gojo – the dichotomy between pride/emptiness is a lot more apparent in part 5 

gosh thank u sm for this!! excited to see what u have next!!!!!!