#Arya can be heir over Sansa and Jon IS named heir and legitimatized

[fromtheseventhhell]

“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the North must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa…your own sister, trueborn…” “…and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.” (Catelyn V, ASOS)

This is truly one of, if not the, most erased passages in the books. People either completely ignore its existence or act as though George wrote it in some secret, coded language that makes it all ambiguous.

[lady-griffin]

Jon Stark, by Marrying Sansa Stark

By the end of A Song of Ice and Fire (and GOT), I suspect that the Starks will be ruling Winterfell once more, not just in blood, but in NAME. 

I believe in the end, Jon will have the name of Stark, because he took Sansa’s name when they married.

Starks will be being ruling Winterfell not just in blood, but in name. Not Targaryen or some new branch that has an entirely differently name. Their children will take the Stark name as will Jon. 

The Starks will rule Winterfell once more.

There are several factors to why I think this will be the case.

Jon has always wanted to be a Stark. While he could be legitimatized (which is still a possibility), he has refused in the past, so I doubt it and I also doubt Jon will “legitimatize” himself. So, it would be nice, if marrying Sansa gives him the Stark name (reversing the marital roles).

Sansa in addition wants to remain a Stark and remain in the North, thus completing her own character arc, as in the beginning she wanted nothing more than to leave her home and family.

One aspect of why I really like the idea of Jon and Sansa ending up together and becoming the new Lord & Lady of Winterfell (King & Queen) is that it not only fulfills thematic elements of the series but shows Jon’s character development in how he regards women and the female lineage.

“The Lannisters are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. [Joffrey] makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.” Arya I, GOT

Now this might not seem all that important, because Jon does not like Joffrey or the Lannisters, but it’s super interesting that he critiques Joffrey for making his “mother’s house equal” - that’s a very specific (and out of nowhere) critique.

But one that isn’t all that surprising when you consider Jon’s identity as a ‘Stark’ and a Snow, which are tied to his presumed father, Ned Stark. Jon has no mother, aside from a biological one.

So, it is interesting that in reality the family Jon identifies with the most and wants to be part of, is because of his mother. He’s a Stark, through Lyanna. His identity comes from his mother’s family, not the father, which is not common at all.

But back to the point, Joffrey raised his mother’s house to be equal to his father’s. Something Jon doesn’t quite approve of and while it could just be because he dislikes Joffrey, it might simply be a defense mechanism from a 14-year-old boy who has no mother.  

He has no mother to make equal to his father, so he “lashes” out against the idea.

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested. Arya I, GOT (In response to Jon’s comment)

Arya is absolutely right here. And while many take this quote to mean women are equal to men (which they are) and thus should be treated as equals (which they should). You can take what Arya is saying in a different direction.

She is saying the Wife is equal to the Husband. The Mother of the child is just as important as the Father -which is definitely true in Westeros in regards to legitimacy.

Even though Ned is not actually Jon’s father, no one knows that. To everyone, Jon is just as much of Ned’s son as Robb is.

Except he’s not.

Robb is the legitimate heir to Winterfell, because his mother is Catelyn Tully and all the other Stark children, despite being younger and or female have more legitimate claims to Winterfell than Jon. Simply because their mother is Catelyn Tully – a woman who has no claim to Winterfell herself.

It’s interesting to think about that - The wife who isn’t of the family is the one who “gives” legitimacy to a child’s claim over that families’ land and titles (with the father, obviously).

And Robb (because of Catelyn) reminds Jon of this once, when they were young and playing Lord of Winterfell. Robb says his mother says Jon can’t be Lord of Winterfell, because he’s a bastard.

Catelyn through her marriage and ostracization of Jon, will always keep him away from being a true and legitimate heir to Winterfell.

The Stark children being both Stark and Tully is what gives them legitimacy.

So, the wife/mother is just as important as the husband/father, so perhaps Joffrey (or Cersei through Joffrey) is not wrong to make the Lannister House equal to the Baratheon house in Joffrey’s personal sigil.

Now onto Sansa.

Sansa’s husband (Jon) taking her name also fulfills an aspect for her arc. Within the plot of the books, show and the general fandom itself, there is importance put upon who Sansa will marry (legitimately/permanently).

Will she be Sansa Lannister? Sansa Tyrell? Sansa Bolton? Sansa Targaryen? Sansa Baelish? Sansa Clegane? Sansa Snow?

And on and on.

And Sansa’s marriage is definitely important to her arc, not because of romance but because it’s the woman’s traditional role in Westeros - being the wife and mother. Having your husband cloak you in his house’s colors. Taking on a new family and a new identity.

And Sansa’s arc and role as a character takes on the traditional role of women in Westeros, both fulfilling it and exposing the awful truths of it.

And Sansa was supposed to be a traditional lady, who would take her husband’s name and help grow his family- give her husband legitimate children to inherit his title and lands. And Sansa in the beginning only wanted that.

She didn’t want to be a Stark and remain in Winterfell and in the North, she wanted to be a Baratheon/Lannister or a Tyrell in the south. But because of the war, how people now (and forever will) identify Sansa is her being a Stark.

Sansa has only been referred to as Sansa Lannister (and Bolton) when someone is try to delegitimatize her claim to Winterfell (and the North). Other than that, she is Sansa Stark.

She is the key to the north. If Robb Stark falls, Sansa is the only true heir of Winterfell remaining (due to the belief all her siblings were dead).

Now one can certainly take over Winterfell with an army or be given it by the Crown, but they’ll never be legitimate. To have a legitimate claim to Winterfell you need Sansa or the Stark name in general – but there is a reason there is so much emphasis on Sansa being the key, because she will be that legitimacy.

Sansa will remain a Stark and pass the name onto her children. 

The Starks have ruled Winterfell for thousands of years and it is hard to imagine that not being the case in the end. 

And while there are the other Stark children, none of their stories quite fit with the ending of ruling Winterfell and making the next generation -- and being more than content with that life.

Bran is the winged-wolf/three eye-raven now. Essentially going down a dark and magical journey, so his journey ending with him being the Lord of Winterfell, while far from bad, just doesn’t quite fit.

Arya fully embraces her wolf heritage and loves being a Stark but can anyone honestly see Arya being content to stay in Winterfell and being a lady (even a non-traditional one) and having/producing children.

Rickon is dead in the show and is absolutely going to die in the books -- literary device of Shaggydog.

And Jon, sweet Jon. Jon is the only other “Stark sibling” whose arc would be satisfied with him being the Lord of Winterfell, having his own children and a wife.

Jon never belonged in Winterfell, but desired to belong and even desired to have Winterfell. Not in the sense he was going to hurt his siblings to attain it, but it was a source of jealousy and soreness for him. Despite Eddard being his father, Catelyn was not his mother, which denies him Winterfell.

Jon doesn’t want to nor can he ‘properly’ have children of his own. As a bastard, with plenty of legitimate siblings, there is no reason for a proper lady to seek being his wife. He has no name, no titles or lands.

He can’t give a wife what is usually expected of a husband. But that’s okay, because Sansa has the name, land and titles or at least the best claim to the last two.

Sansa and Jon have (once had) parallel desires that complete one another.

A non-specific husband for Sansa, a safe and warm place where she is loved and protected. With children, who would essentially be the fallen Starks “reborn,” at least in name

A non-specific wife for Jon. Him ruling Winterfell with essentially a proper lady as his wife, raising their children and others’ children as he was raised with Robb and Theon. Happy and safe, and with the legitimacy that Jon was always denied.

Sansa has legitimacy that isn’t exactly common for women to have. Marrying Sansa gives one a true legitimate claim to Winterfell. And, she is the proper lady, that I think Jon has always wanted. But Sansa won’t be submissive, she’ll be a mix of what Jon desires and likes in a woman, as well as what he needs.

Jon gives Sansa genuine love and protection. True safety and security. And Jon being Sansa’s “sibling/cousin” is another added protection, Jon wouldn’t love Sansa for her claim alone, not even close. They are family and from the same pack of wolves.

Additionally, Jon is the only one I see taking the name Stark through marriage from Sansa. I highly doubt, Tyrion, Sandor or Willas will give up their names. And I just can’t see a Lannister, Tyrell or Clegane ruling Winterfell. 

Which honestly would not go over well, even if they are married to Sansa, I don’t see The North fully embracing anyone but a Stark (name and everything). 

And we’ve seen that in the Books and (not as much) in the show, with the Boltons.

I can easily see Jon giving up the name Snow. As the name Snow is of no importance – that’s literally the point. Jon giving up his name and taking his wife’s name of Stark is very fulfilling for him.

Sidenote: Jon’s name of Snow being of no importance though is one reason why I see Jon not taking the name Stark. (X) 

I don’t see Jon exactly being comfortable with taking the Stark name, not because it’s through Sansa, but because he would feel he hasn’t “earned” it.

Jon has shown that for him to be a Stark, he has to earn it. Prove himself worthy of the name. Saving his father’s life or dying heroically (for his father, family) for instance.

“He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.” (Jon IX, GOT)

That all being said, Jon not being comfortable with having the Stark name, might be why he will have it in the end. And honestly, it’s very Jon, to have ‘earned’ the name Stark and be welcomed as a Stark by his cousins, only for him to brood and still think, he’s not worthy.

Back to Jon having the name of Stark to rule Winterfell.

Someone taking on the established family’s name to rule the respected lands, is not as uncommon as one would think.

Look at Harry the Heir — "He is the heir presumptive of Lord Robert Arryn and would ascend to rule the Vale as "Harrold Arryn” should Lord Robert die without issue.” (X) (Alayne, A Feast For Crows?)

The Vale won’t be ruled by the Hardyng House as Harry will take the Arryn name, because the Arryn’s have ruled the Vale for centuries, changing his name to Arryn gives him more legitimacy.

And the same would be true for Jon -- taking the Stark name, would give his rule of Winterfell far more legitimacy. Because even though he is a Stark on his mother’s side, there might be some doubt about that, leading to questions about his right to Winterfell.

But if he marries Sansa Stark, trueborn daughter of Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully. Well their child would have all the rights to Winterfell.

Because even though people don’t like it, there’s no denying that by marrying Sansa, Tyrion and any potential children the two have, have a legitmate claim to Winterfell. That’s why Stannis urged Jon to take Winterfell.  

Now just because the Starks will rule again, doesn’t mean there won’t be any changes. For one thing, I imagine a new sigil being created.

New Sigil—

Black Field

With a white dire wolf with red eyes on top

Keeping with the Stark Direwolf sigil (instead of just the Targaryen banner taking over)

Includes Targaryen colors of red and black.

Represents Ghost and Jon as well as Jon’s mixed heritage. He’s a Stark and a Targaryen.

Because while I don’t think Jon being a TARGARYEN is as important as everyone has assumed and I think it might be a ‘red herring’ in a way, I don’t think it’s nothing.

So, the Stark sigil changing, maybe even taking on more of Targaryen aspect to it – is not out of the question.

Back to names, though.

Names are a huge thing in ASOIAF. In both the literal story and the reader’s experience. In the world of Westeros, a name is everything. 

A name gives the characters the rights and privileges they’ve known. It also causes them great pain and suffering.

Tyrion is hated for being a Lannister, but being a Lannister is what has kept alive.

Being a Stark is why Sansa can never be truly safe in the south and why she suffers, but it also keeps her ‘safe and protected’.

The best example of that, is that despite Sansa’s family being literal traitors to the crown and that Cersei does not like her in the least, Cersei still wouldn’t let Littlefinger marry Sansa, because Littlefinger is far too low in status to be wed to a STARK (and potentially have rights to Winterfell).

Names are important, because they are the legitimate and legal aspect within the world of Westeros.

Despite being Ned’s “Son”, Jon has no claim to the Stark name. And the same goes for Rhaegar -- -- I mean even if it’s proven, there will always be those who will question that legitimacy.

And I doubt that even after facing the Night King and all that good stuff, Westeros will change its ways. 

Westeros will always have those reaching for power and claiming their own legitimacy over others.

Despite the Tyrells being named Wardens of the Reach by Aegon the Conqueror that is still a contested dispute, because many other families within the Reach feel like that have a far more legitimate claim. 

Even though that  claim is tied to House Gardener, who lost the Reach to House Targaryen, so even though House Gardener shouldn’t matter, it still does. 

Because names and inheritance are integral to the nobles of Westeros.

Despite the Boltons taking Winterfell and being named Lords of the North by the Crown, it’s not accepted by the North.

Even though Robert Baratheon took the throne (one which he had no right too), but therefore took it and therefore has the right, his Targaryen relation is brought up to prove some legitimacy to his reign.

And again, we see this struggle based on legitimacy time and time again.

It’s why the Bolton’s are having trouble with the north. It’s why the Freys are having trouble in the Riverlands.

And its why Robert wanted all the Targaryen’s dead (hatred aside). 

Despite Aerys being a hugely hated king and the fact that 5 of the main noble houses rebelled against him and won the war. Any Targaryen can have more of a claim then Robert and his family, simply because they are Targaryen.

To clarify, having the right name doesn’t guarantee you power or a throne -particularly if you have lost your armies and wealth. We see this with Viserys.

So while, ASOIAF has shown names aren’t everything they are important.  

The nobles of Westeros like the legitimacy that comes with the right name. 

And more importantly, your name being legitimate is what will allow you to keep your power and quell plenty of rebellions before they even start.

Finally, for the characters, their names are a huge part of their identities. Far more then what a surname is for people in reality. In fact, Westerosi House Loyalty/Identification is closer to real-world nationalism.

Being a Stark has so much weight and meaning to the Starks and to everyone else (and so on with the rest of the names). It’s a literal form of their identity and who they are or at least should be.

But outside the world of Westeros, for the readers, the names have importance. There is a reason why there are debates of whether Joffrey should be Joffrey Lannister or Waters or Hills. There is a reason no one refers to Cersei as Cersei Baratheon. And so on.

And anyone aside from a Stark and restoring Winterfell back to it’s proper, won’t feel right to the readers. There’s a reason why fans were so excited to see the banners of Stark replace the Bolton’s flayed man. 

It’s a victory. But a victory, Sansa STARK and Jon Snow accomplished.

Jon, being a Snow or Targaryen, ruling Winterfell is literally just as good and no different then Jon Stark ruling Winterfell – except of course in name.

And names are important.

So, it should be a literal Stark in name who takes back Winterfell and rules it in the future.

And maybe, even if Jon keeps the name Snow, his children will be Starks through Sansa (blood and name).

But to me, Jon taking the name Stark by marrying Sansa his truly satisfying for his arc and fulfills elements to both of their character arcs, especially from when we were first introduced to them.

So, I truly believe, The Starks will rule the North once again. And I believe it will be Sansa and Jon Stark and their future children who will do so.

Check out another of my meta-analysis posts on the relationship of Jonsa, The Cloaking Ceremonies of Jonsa

[medschoolash]

There Must Always be a Stark in Winterfel

So lately I've been thinking about the future of House Stark. Now this is gonna mostly be from a show perspective since I haven't read the books. I know that the major houses had mother family members besides the ones we saw on the show but I'm gonna assume that the main and relevant people were all the people on the show. It's no secret that all of the great houses are in precarious positions right now. The only major ones left standing at the moment are House Lannister, House Targaryen, and House Stark. I think I can count house Arryn in there as well even though their current heir is a child. I'm not sure about the fate of the Tully's but the only other remaining houses are smaller houses. The Lannister's future is bleak unless Ceresi has another one of her incest babies or Tyrion marries. House Targaryen's fate is in the hands of Daenerys, who allegedly can not birth any more living children, and Jon, who doesn't even know he's a Targaryen yet. House Stark has 3 of 5 trueborn children still alive, but what remains of their house leaves them in an interesting position as well. House Lannister and Targaryen have a male heir who can potentially pass the family name on. House Stark actually does not. With Bran being a cripple and the three eyed raven he will never marry and will never sire children. That leaves the fate of House stark solely on the shoulders of Sansa and Arya. This is a bad position to be in because even if they marry and have children, none of their children would be Starks since they would be forced to take on their husband's last name. That means the Stark name would end with them. That brings me to this question....If there must always be a Stark in Winterfel, who will sire the next generation of Stark children? What will happen to the Stark name going forward? There will always be a Stark in Winterfel as long as Sansa and Arya are there, but what happens after them? Or if they get married? If their children can't be Starks then how will their house survive? After all they have been through I have a hard time just accepting that in their House name just disappears among the long list of forgotten houses. In my mind there has to be a way that the remaining Stark children can continue their house legacy and Keep the stark name and banners over Winterfel. The starks have been around since the First Men. The North is the Starks, so there has to be a way that their House continues. That brings me to my theories on how that happens. First we have to consider that Arya may never marry of have children. She's never expressed any desire for it on the show (I'm not sure about the books) and Arya seems to be all in with her faceless assassin persona, that doesn't leave a lot of room for romance and traditional marriage or children. We also have to consider that Arya currently has not one but two Valaryian steel weapons in her possession. That means Arya is more than likely going to be in the middle of the fight with the army of the dead. That means that there is a chance that she can actually die in that fight. I'm not saying she will die, but she is at risk of dying. Bottom line, it's highly unlikely that Arya will be able to contribute to her family legacy going forward unless she survives the long night and suddenly decides to retreat into a domestic life where she marries and has kids. If the Nymeria scene was meant to be a foreshadow/parallel then Arya is not destined for domestic life at Winterfel or any castle. That means the fate of House stark is pretty much in the hands of Sansa. Sansa has been married before and she probably doesn't want to have to marry again, but it's safe to say that she will probably have to eventually, even if she somehow manages to be crowned Queen in the North. She will have to continue her bloodline and produce and heir. There is just one problem with Sansa getting married, she will have to take on her husband's last name, and so will her children, and if she marries another highborn man, she will have to leave Winterfel to be the Lady of his Keep. This takes her away from Winterfel and strips her of her Stark name. If Sansa leaves winterfel there is a good chance that there will no longer be a Stark in Winterfel. So what happens then? Does some other northern Lord take over? Does Sansa's husband possibly become the Lord of Winterfel over her and then create his own house that rules over the North? The options are limited here because unfortunately Westerosi society if a patriarchy. Sansa would have to find the most progressive husband ever that would give their children her last name and allow her to rule as the Lady of Winterfel. It's safe to say it's going to be hard to find a man like this in Westeros. So that leaves me wondering again....what happens next? How will there always be a stark in Winterfel? The wild card here is Jon, who is a snow by name but a Stark by blood, even if he isn't the son of Ned Stark. Jon is the most interesting factor here because he can influence the fate of two houses: Targaryen and Stark, as he's the only male from both bloodlines capable of siring children in the future. Jon is also in a unique position to where he has a claim to power in the South and in the North, that means he can make decision that seem progressive to us and get away with it. I personally think that Jon can chose which name he wants to take, he doesn't have to go by Targaryen. Daemon Blackfyre was legitimized by his father the king, but chose to create his own house and take the name Blackfyre instead of taking on the Targaryen name. Jon could chose to do something similar and chose to take his mother's name, Stark instead of his father's name. Taking Stark would make sense because Jon was raised by Ned Stark, the North is his home, he has no connection to the name Targaryen at all. Finding out that his father was one isn't going to suddenly make the connection appear. He could also chose Stark because if he does not the only family name he's ever had a connection to would die out with his cousins. If Jon takes the name Targaryen, house Targaryen lives on, but house stark is left to die. I have a hard time seeing that happening since the downfall of house targaryen has been in the works for a while and it was brought on by their own ill advised practices like incest. I just don't see this being a story where the most problematic house in the history of houses is saved by a secret heir who embraces his ancestry and carries on the legacy, especially not with a character like Jon being the center of this potential storyline. Jon will always be a man of the North, he will always be a Stark at his core, not a Targaryen. Everything about him is the antithesis of what the Targaryens are and have been throughout history. This is why I think that Jon will chose to reject his Targaryen ancestry and name, and instead embrace the Stark name. He has always wanted it and it's kinda bittersweet because he wouldn't be getting it the way he wanted it, which is by being legitimatized as the son of Ned Stark, but he would still finally have the identity that he always craved. Jon embracing the stark name would be a big deal because it opens the door to keeping Ned Stark's legacy alive and House Stark alive. If Jon take the name Stark, he can marry Sansa Stark, Ned's trueborn daughter. Sansa can keep her name, and the Starks can keep their Lordship of Winterfel. All of their children would have the Stark name, so their house would live on. There would always be a Stark in Winterfel. My only iffy thing about this is what happens if Jon takes the iron throne with Sansa at this side. What Stark would be left at Winterfel? Possibly Arya maybe? But again, Arya doesn't seem destined for domestic life so I'm a little stuck....unless Arya stays at winterfel temporarily. Jon and Sansa's first born would be the heir to the iron throne, but their second child could take over Lordship at Winterfel. If Jon and Sansa didn't take the iron throne and just kept the North they wouldn't have this problem. Anyways I'm kinda rambling now lol I think it would be pretty ironic though, House Targaryen dies because of their incest, and house Stark lives on because of incest.