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#I'm not justifying continuing to do wrong. I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it
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I have a dumb question, and I really hope this doesn’t sound rude. What’s the logic for some of the characters? Like, if they’re the “hero” in their storyline, but they don’t seem to follow Biblical doctrine… does that even count? I’m sorry if that sounds snotty; I don’t mean to have an attitude.
No, you're fine!!
Short answer: I don't know, I'm not the one sending in the characters 😂
But really I would say there's not necessarily a consistent logic that they have to fit. That's part of the beauty of Christianity, isn't it? Anyone who repents and believes is welcome; it's not limited to any certain type of people. For the characters people are sending in here, I think there are a few categories. There are some that fit what you said, who already hold Christian morals and who one could easily headcanon as being Christian within the story. Sometimes people send in villains who they want to have redemption arcs and become Christian. Sometimes it's characters who are Christian; mostly it's characters people would like to see become Christian.
#my favorite character who i headcanon as Christian is one who generally has very Christian morals and really wants to do good#but also lies a lot. and i think in that case it's like i could see him being Christian in the story#because Christians aren't perfect and even people who don't have their whole act together can believe#I'm not justifying continuing to do wrong. I'm trying to figure out how to phrase it#i think there's some post I've seen about how even terrible characters who do terrible things can be Christian#if they're repentant i think? point being that all of us are sinners and a character doesn't have to be perfectly good to be a believer#because none of us are. and a line from a song i know 'though I'm wretched i am not faithless' about a character who#has done bad things and is struggling to reconcile his actions with God's love and forgiveness#anyway. i was saying the character i like comes across to me as an imperfect Christian but also as someone who could really benefit from#learning and growing in the faith. i want to see that character grow morally stronger and become more like Jesus!!!#it would be good for him 🤷‍♀️#and that's kinda the point of most of the characters people send. they either seem like they could genuinely BE Christian#or are characters people think really need Christianity in their lives#sometimes it's 'this character seems Christian' and sometimes it's 'i like this character and want them to become Christian'#i think characters who don't follow Biblical doctrine fall under either imperfect and learning Christian or needs Jesus in their life#ask
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@rilmareatsglue making a new post because that other one is getting too goddamn long and i'm on my bullshit and ready to ramble. this will not be organized. also, i naturally have a course manner of speech, so i'm not trying to insult you but i am gonna stop making effort to phrase things politely
you can do something. you can buy local. everywhere you're purposefully pricing up to buy vegan, buy local instead. there's a reason every ag person wearing overalls in the country has been shouting buy local for the last 10 years. there are many benefits to this, not the least of which is completely sidestepping industrial ag (may it rest in hell).
buying local makes sense where veganism is utterly incoherent. there are many many many animal products where respectful use of them is actively good for the environment and ourselves. bees? everywhere bees are, the plants are doing better. beekeepers are one of the last obstacles preventing bee extinction and the bees will fly the fuck away if they dont like their beekeeper. buy local honey please for the love of god invest in this animal product that is actively improving the world. wool is one of the most environmentally sustainable fabrics ever. vegan leather is plastic and look. fossil fuels are worse than animals. mining is worse for the environment than a sheep. the leather made from cowhide WHEN AN ANIMAL IS TREATED WELL, FED APPROPRIATELY, AND COMPLETELY USED is better for the environment because every part of it biodegrades and it doesn't require fossil fuels to produce. buffalo leather is A M A Z I N G because we're actively fucking trying to bring the buffalo back to the plains to replace cattle and market incentives are helpful, it's disrespectful to only use part of the animal, it biodegrades and the wastewater impact is lower than mining for fossil fuels to make plastic fabric, and buffalo presence on the plains causes a positive cascade effect and reinvigorates the environment. we already need to figure out how to mass produce okra goop to filter microplastics out of the water i am so fucking sick of plastic fabric. buy wool. please just buy wool or leather it lasts longer anyway. plant fiber fabrics are preferable, but the environment needs animals and we need to prioritize our production based on what can be recycled into the environment. chickens have minimal environmental impact, are natural scavengers in times of famine, and continually provide eggs which are high in protein and nutrition. grand option for the majority of winter regions to promote food security.
tangent: god another thing about veganism that i hate is that in order to ever work in any reality, it relies on WAY WORSE SHIT like fucking fracking. FRACKING IS WORSE THAN A COW. PLEASE EVEN IF WE WERE ONLY USING THE LEATHER, THE COW IS BETTER. AT LEAST IT DECOMPOSES. i think vegans don't understand that your food system includes the waste products. you HAVE to keep in mind its production waste AND what it looks like when you're done with it. if it turns into literal poison in 30 years, it's the wrong choice. everything that is plastic based is the wrong choice ok. animals are better for the simple reason that they'll fuckin decompose and contribute to the continuation of life on this planet instead of literal poison. like it makes me fucking insane how much veganism relies on the assumption of capitalist imperialism to function, like none of the things we use in the US are manageable unless we're laying waste to cultures and environments halfway across the world for raw petrochemicals and land control. i hope to GOD that we lose access to a lot of international food products because it would mean that americans are no longer making decisions about what people halfway across the world are allowed to farm and then stealing it from them.
look into your environment, see what it needs, and start buying from the people who are going along with that. do not justify consumption of industrially produced vegan products with claims of environmental protection and DEFINITELY stop advocating for it as the be-all-end-all of ethical eating. local is ethical. local is ethical. your actual environment that you physically live in and walk through on the daily is what you should be using to make decisions about what food you buy and from who.
and plant some tomatoes or get some chickens or something. scatter a bunch of squash seeds in your local park and when they come in, hang a little sign saying they're free. look into food sovereignty, i think i have a post about it somewhere. read fresh banana leaves by jessica hernandez. google kincentric ecology.
you're not powerless, and the situation isn't hopeless. we just have to actually contend with its magnitude and drop the vegan bullshit. actually learn about your environment, how its specific nutrient cycle flows, and plan your food production to work within it and support it or look around for some farms who do and buy from them when you can. i think that the general public thinks of food production as inherently destructive when it just does not have to be and usually isn't. we started out as foragers because food grows naturally with no effort whatsoever, we live on dirt that fertilizes itself if you leave a corpse on top of it, the earth is meant to cycle nutrients. our food system can be fully and completely regenerative, we can make the earth and the environment healthier with our food system. and back to my bullshit: animals are a part of that! they have to eat the stuff we can't or don't want to and poop in the right places and carry us through the winters and provide fabric and all sorts of shit! no one is going after peruvian llamas right now because they haven't been industrialized! seriously animals are not the problem we need them so bad. they're actually a part of the life cycle, unlike popular alternatives such as *checks notes* literal poison. im so tired
it's an entirely different way of thinking. it's an entirely different way of looking at the world. it requires you to look for the systems of life that surround you and where you can fit in. and not just fit in, but where you can help instead of control.
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hey ummm im tipsy too because it's my flatmate's birthday and I'm literally a lesbian woman but sometimes I worry I might not be lesbian and it scares me because I'm scared of men but sometimes I think a man is attractive (like my flatmate) and idk why I'm msging you about that, sorry if it's weird. but you seem to have very valuable insights about life that not many others have (somehow?? idk?) and I respect and appreciate that.
oh it’s not weird! i think one thing i have learned is that it is 100% okay and healthy to hold your own sense of who you are lightly, and to not feel so attached to a particular label that you don’t allow yourself lots of space to grow and change as you have new experiences or meet new people who bring out different facets of yourself. to me the label of ‘lesbian’ is not an Essential and Immutable Truth about who i am (ie something that can never shift or change over time). instead, using that label speaks to a decision i’ve made about how i want to orient myself in the world, how i want others to perceive and interact with me, and where i choose to channel my energy & attention.
when i first came out i spent many, many years feeling like i had to justify and “prove” that i was “really” a lesbian and that i was ~~~pure~~~ of any flickers of attraction or interest in men (there’s a conversation about internalized biphobia to be had there, but we’ll save it!!). i have described this phase (which i think characterizes many young or newly out lgbtq people’s experiences) as “the push,” because for me it was basically like, to get myself emotionally, intellectually, and socially free of the rigid constraints of compulsory heterosexuality, i had to PUSH really, really hard, to get enough distance between myself and all of that stuff. i had to shove it as far away from me as possible to lessen the chance that it would suck me back in. that was a normal and necessary part of moving into a more openly queer identity, and for many women who identify as lesbian the “push” involves completely disavowing any past interest in men or relationships with men or emotional attachments to men.
the push isn’t a bad thing! like i said, i think it is quite necessary at first, especially since women are subject to even more of the “are you sure? i mean, you’re not really gay, right? maybe you just haven’t met the right guy / maybe it’s just a phase / maybe you just couldn’t get a guy to like you / maybe you’re just afraid of men so you’re pretending you like women” bullshit than gay men are. but it’s a phase that i think most people eventually are ready to move out of (well, unless you are on twitter, and then you just live in the wake of the push forever and ever i guess). and that’s because it can be quite an intense and anxious headspace to live in, as you often feel a lot of pressure to “figure yourself out” (ie pin down what exactly you are -- are you a “real” lesbian or not?), as well as a lot of pressure to prove to yourself as much as to other people that you are who you say you are, or whatever. so it’s stressful to live there, and it also requires you to draw a lot of really hard-and-fast lines (like, “this is what a REAL lesbian is, and i’m only REAL if i follow all of these rules or check off all of these boxes all the time, and if i slip up maybe i’m not actually a lesbian, and i’m lying to myself and everyone else”).
over time i’ve come to hold my own identity more lightly, and to demand less certainty and fewer fixed answers of myself (and of others, too!). the identity label i use doesn’t really matter all that much to me - what matters is 1) that i am able to arrange my life and relationships in a way that makes me happy, and 2) that others respect the choices i make (something that’s not always within our control). right now, “lesbian” is the word that i like best as a descriptor, but i also know that labels are very, very generic categories that almost have to be emptied of specificity and nuance in order to encompass a very wide range of people. to borrow & repurpose a phrase from the transfeminist theorist emi koyama: there are as many ways of being a lesbian as there are lesbians. lesbian is just a general catchall umbrella category for an incredibly diverse range of lived experiences, histories, self-understandings, sexual and romantic choices, life narratives, etc etc.
if lesbian is the word that works for you or feels like the closest approximation to how you want to identify & be perceived by others, then call yourself a lesbian! it is completely and totally fine to be a lesbian who sometimes finds men attractive, or who finds herself attracted to a specific male friend. there’s nothing wrong with that! personally, i am a lesbian who has had important emotional and physical relationships with men in the past, and it’s possible that in the future maybe i’ll meet someone who i really click with who happens to be a man. it’s not maybe something that i would go looking for, and if it did happen, it would certainly prompt some soul-searching, as does any new experience that surprises us or complicates the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and what we want. but holding my identity labels and my sense of self loosely means that i don’t have to feel as threatened by the possibility of changing desires or a shifting understanding of who i am & how i want to arrange my life.
my real true belief is that the vast majority of people are probably capable of forming deep emotional and physical attachments to any kind of person, if the circumstances were right and the person was the right person at the right time and we were open to the possibility of an attachment. i think that very few human traits or preferences are ‘hardwired’ into us in fixed and unchangeable ways. in general, most of our traits are influenced by a combination of nature and nurture, or genetics + experience. so like, idk, maybe some of us who are born cis women are slightly more predisposed than other people to find other women attractive. but nurture, lived experiences, environment, social and culture influences, and the stories we tell ourselves about who we are all play a much, much more important role in determining how we make sense of that predisposition, and whether we come to use words like “lesbian” to identify ourselves. so the type of rigid, stridently defended boundaries or definitions we often feel the need to invoke & defend during the "push” are even less useful here, because how could a fixed set of black-and-white labels (which, btw, only emerged in the last 100-130 years) possibly encompass or account for the wonderful heterogeneity of human experience?
anyway i guess this is all a very long way of saying that i think your worry is completely understandable, and certainly something i spent many years of my own life feeling! but i also think it can be nice to hear from other queer women that there’s a place a little further beyond that, which is basically just this realization: i am who i am, and i accept myself as i am right now, while also understanding that “who i am” will continue to evolve & change my whole life long. you are a lesbian if you say you are a lesbian, and if you want to have a crush on your male flatmate or find a male celebrity attractive or even try pursuing something with a male partner, that’s okay: it doesn’t mean your lesbianism isn’t real, or that you are now going to be pulled back into a compulsory heterosexuality you worked hard to push yourself away from.
but it also doesn’t mean that lesbianism is where you have to stay forever, just because that’s where you’ve landed or what has felt right for you up until now. it’s completely okay, normal, and healthy to allow yourself that space to change. maybe you’ll move into a phase of your life where “bisexual” or “queer” or “pan” will feel like a closer approximation or a better shorthand for how you understand yourself & want others to understand you. or maybe you’ll come to find some other word that you like better, or maybe you’ll decide that you don’t even want or need a word to live your life the way you want. the point is that you aren’t fixed in place. you are free to explore and to experiment and to try out different ways of orienting yourself in the world. and you should do so, in ways that feel exciting and affirming and right for you.
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adhd-adept · 3 years
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hi! i like your posts! they're real helpful
anyway a thing i need help with
i want to ask my dad for therapy because i think i might have adhd? and also some other shit
so basically
(this is going to be a long post)
back in summer 2020, i thought i might have adhd because i was reading some comics from adhd alien and the signs of adhd she shared seemed eerily familiar?
and i did some research and more signs came up and i thought i might have them?
and i found a therapist who specialises in adhd and other issues
but when i talked to my dad about it he was all "ADHD is only hyperactive idiots who are useless without meds" and he yelled at me for a while and I'm now basically scared of mentioning the topic up ever again
he brought me to some sessions, but i think once he said it was "so the therapist tells you you don't have adhd"?
anyway after the summer ended i couldn't get therapy again because school and busy
with the 2 week spring vacation coming up i was thinking of maybe asking him again? but I'm really scared and he probably won't take it seriously again...
signed,
an idiot
Hey! Thanks. I’m glad I can be helpful. I wanted to answer this right away, but it took me a little time because this question deserves a thoughtful response. This is going to be a long post.
[If anyone with more experience in situations like this has advice, I would welcome suggestions]
First things first! I don't think you're an idiot. This world can be hard to navigate even in the best of times, and I will never think you're foolish for needing a little help with anything that that entails!
Looking for a therapist is a great start! I’m glad that you are taking yourself seriously and taking steps to get help. That can take a lot of courage, and I’m proud of you for it!
Know that it may continue to take courage, and persistence - it can be really difficult to get an official ADHD diagnosis. I definitely have ADHD, and it actually took two tries when I got diagnosed around age 12, as the first doctor thought I had been perfectly attentive during the meeting and thus could not believe I was struggling with inattention elsewhere. My friend in her early twenties has been attending periodic doctor and therapist sessions for a couple months now, because the first doctor didn’t take her seriously, the second said she clearly had ADHD but sent her elsewhere for prescriptions, and the doctor they sent her to insisted she get a second opinion. She is finally starting to get accommodations, but it’s been an ongoing effort.
And you may simply not get along very well with your first therapist. You can always try reaching out to another. It can be a long process, and I hope saying that does not discourage you because there is a lot of good that comes at the end of that process; specifically, a better understanding of yourself and access to some resources that can help you seek accommodations for the things you struggle with.
It sounds like you’ve done your research on therapy, though. If you want any help with looking for a therapist, I am happy to help, (or at least try to). But it sounds like what you’re asking is how to approach the subject with your dad?
You’ll have to take some of my advice from here with a grain of salt; I’ve never been in the specific situation you’re in now, and of course I don’t know your dad as well as you do. But in my experience, rephrasing a request can do a lot to make it sound more reasonable.
I think the first step is understanding where he is coming from. Again, you have met the man and I haven’t, so this is more suggestion and guesswork than any kind of statement.
It sounds like your dad has a significant bias against neurodivergence. But I think it does matter WHY he feels that way. I can only imagine that it comes from a lifetime of hearing those things about ADHD from the people around him, and it will take time for him to reverse that prejudice. I feel sorry for him to have grown up in that hostile environment, and I am sorry that that hostility is being carried through to you.
But the result is that he thinks there’s something wrong with having ADHD. Of course, that isn’t true, but no parent wants to believe there’s something “wrong” with their child, and he will probably be resistant to the idea for as long as he believes that there is. 
More than that, I think parents don’t want to believe that, if there IS something wrong with their kid, it might have come from them. A child twisting their ankle in PE class or getting bitten by an ant is one thing - it hurts to see the child in pain, but it isn’t their fault. It’s much harder for a parent to see their child suffer because of a hereditary condition, because I think there can be a lot of guilt associated with that.
On top of that, if he’s been told that ADHD is a terrible thing, it might be disagreeable to him because if you have it then maybe he has it too. People don’t want to believe there’s anything wrong with themselves either.
I don’t know if that’s, on some level, why he reacted the way he did - and even if it’s true, I don’t think any of this justifies yelling at you for it. Nothing justifies that. And I want to be clear that it shouldn’t have to be your responsibility to figure out why he feels the way he feels - that should be on him, and it’s unfair to you to have to work through his issues on your way to getting the help you need. This isn’t necessarily the best or only approach. But trying to at least figure out why he feels the way he does might help you figure out how to approach the subject again. 
Maybe even ask him where he got his impression of ADHD, if it does not feel like doing so will start a new argument. (Maybe don’t mention the part where you’re asking because some stranger on the internet is trying to psychoanalyze him.) But I find, personally, that conversations go better when I can approach them with patience, and I have more patience when I make an effort to remember that the other person’s reactions have to come from somewhere, and if I can at least start out believing that they are misinformed rather than actively hostile.
I think a good start would be to try educating him about ADHD and see how that goes. Anything might sound scary because it is unfamiliar; or, worse, it might sound scary because it sounds vaguely familiar even if the only information you know is that you think someone said it’s scary. 
An aside, to give an example: There was a meme a while ago where water would be referred to as “dihydrogen monoxide” and framed as a dangerous thing with vague-but-technically-true statements such as “it’s a common byproduct of chemical reactions,” and “it’s found in our sewer systems”, or “it has the highest pH value of any acid” (you may recall that the strongest acids are those with a low pH value).
I think it’s easy to do the same with neurodiversity. If all you know about water is that it’s a chemical, it may sound scary. If all you know about ADHD is that it’s a mental disorder, it may sound scary.
Talking with him directly may be better than sending him articles - they tend to start with phrases like “mental health disorder” and “chronic condition”, or big (scary) jargon words that you might want to avoid if you want it to sound approachable (I mean, even the “Simple English” version of the Wikipedia article has the word “neurodevelopmental” in the first sentence).
I think it’s important for him to know that everyone’s ADHD experience is different - symptoms can be strong, or they can be very weak, but even people with very weak symptoms may benefit from seeking professional advice. You can be very “high functioning,” and still find certain tasks more difficult than most people do, and thus benefit from help even if you don’t “need” it to achieve your goals or lead a “normal” looking life.
You might tell him that a lot of ADHD treatment is about paying attention to your own behaviors and learning what works best for you - that even if you do not have ADHD, you may have some experiences in common with people who do, and that seeking a therapist who specializes in ADHD may help you find someone with the kind of attitude you are looking for; maybe you want someone who will be especially patient, and who will be prepared to take you seriously with the symptoms or traits you do have.
After all, most people can understand that you don’t have to have clinical depression to benefit from some of the behavioral things often recommended to people who do, such as getting regular exercise and more sunshine. You can do things that improve your mood even if you don’t have diagnosed clinical depression. 
Similarly, if you are seeking help with some things that people with ADHD struggle with - organization, time management, staying focused - a therapist who specializes in ADHD may be a good fit for you for that reason alone, even if you don’t have it.
And yeah, it sounds like he doesn’t want you to have ADHD, so I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying “even if I don’t have it, talking to a specialist can help me rule that out,” if that’s what helps him feel more comfortable with you getting an appointment. Again, it will take time for him to overcome the negative impression he has now, but at the very least, if he forms a positive impression of ADHD therapists he might not be so hostile about ADHD itself.
Maybe remind him that there can be a lot of overlap between ADHD and other experiences, but that it seems like a good place to start seeking help because it is a relatively common cause of some of the things you’ve experienced.
Know how much you would be willing to compromise before you have this conversation - would you be okay with getting a therapist even if they do not specialize in ADHD? Would you be unlikely to get an appointment if he made it conditional on something like maintaining good grades? Have a clear, tangible goal in mind; while you may leave room for uncertainty in your diagnosis until you speak with a professional, you should try not to leave room for uncertainty in what you are asking for. Know what you want - a session (or a number of sessions) with a therapist - and have your reasoning for that ready, maybe even written down. People tend to take you more seriously when you can demonstrate that you’ve thought something through.
If you say you think you have ADHD, I believe you. But regardless of that, you have recognized that there is something you need help with, and you are taking action in response. I hope that, at the very least, if your dad does not want to take the suggestion of ADHD seriously, he can at least take you seriously when you say that you need help. 
And you will get help. You are moving in the right direction. Don’t lose sight of that.
I hope I’ve answered your question! If this is hard to read I can maybe come back and re-write it as a set of bullet points, maybe suggestions of things to say, but I felt that in the case of more personalized advice it was important to address the context of my advice. If you needed more specific advice, feel free to clarify. And of course, if you have any other questions, I’m always around.
Best of luck!
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plumrabbit · 4 years
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I saw your comment about dealing with Trumpers. Do you have any advice for family members who truly believe they're on the side of good by supporting him? I'm especially torn up about someone who I believe is being taken advantage of due to lifelong social factors & her trusting nature. It's really difficult to unpack & it would be nice if there were a support group for this. I don't want to bother anyone but I need help too. I'm committed, I just shake during convos like these & it's draining.
Hello, and thank you for reaching out! Sorry it took a while to respond, I wanted to come up with something relatively comprehensive. Putting the rest under a cut as this is long!
I am so sorry you are dealing with this in your life, and you’re right, it is totally draining. The fact that these confrontations make you shake is significant because it means your fight or flight response has kicked in - your brain has told your body you are in imminent danger. Here is some info on this response, if you can understand it and how it affects you, you can start searching for ways to manage its debilitating effects, and make difficult conversations less stressful. 
Don’t worry about feeling like you’re being a bother, I am happy to help as much as possible, though I can only speak from my own experiences. I unfortunately cannot say I know of any support groups, but I imagine there would be some on Facebook, and you may also have luck asking somewhere like reddit.com/r/trumpgret. You’re right, it is a ton to unpack, and every Trump supporter is motivated by different factors, but at their core, they’re all relatively similar in that Trump is appealing to something in their psychology. Like I mentioned, I can only really speak from experience, so I’ll tell you what has worked for me. As a disclosure, these were people that only supported Trump, and had some ignorant views based on the false information he’s been spreading. This doesn’t apply to e.g. people that rat out undocumented immigrants to ICE, capitalist bootlickers, neo Nazis, etc. I usually advocate for non-violence, but you can punch those people in the face for all I care.
First and foremost, the main thing I’ve always kept in the back of my mind when dealing with Trump supporters is that at the end of the day, they’re also human. Humans are fallible, and our evolution as a social species has also made us so prone to mob mentality and blindly following others. There are a multitude of reasons as to why this occurs, but it tends to boil down to emotions, and not actual facts. From Wikipedia: “Herd mentality, mob mentality and pack mentality, describes how people can be influenced by their peers to adopt certain behaviors on a largely emotional, rather than rational, basis. When individuals are affected by mob mentality, they may make different decisions than they would have individually.”
It’s important to remember that how they are behaving is not necessarily who they truly are, and even though communicating with them may be difficult as a result, you have to forgive them for following herd mentality because they may feel pressured to believe certain ideas. It’s difficult, but compassion is a requirement for getting through to someone. 
If you’re having a discussion with the person you’ve mentioned and the topic of Trump comes up, the best way to establish a connection with them is to just listen. Acknowledge what they say by repeating it in a way that makes it clear that you are trying to understand their thought process. So many people respond by firstly stating their own perspectives, but this doesn’t show the other person that you are actually listening. Use this opportunity to find out what they are thinking, and remember what they said so you can analyze it later. I mentioned earlier that Trump supporters all tend to share certain psychological traits, and here are the studies, and the summary, that describe these traits in more detail. 
Figuring out which one(s) your family members could potentially be categorized in will help you understand what is going on inside their head, because you can do more research on that specific issue. What are they motivated by? What are they afraid of? Not only can you do research on their specific psychological traits, you can also find statistics that will refute their claims that they are using to justify their discrimination. That being said, bringing up objective facts can be difficult, because they are likely to not want to believe the hard evidence. Again, if you can coax them into a place where they are open to understanding the bigger issue, e.g. immigrants and crime (hint, statistical analyses show immigration does not increase crime), you can increase the chances of having a productive conversation with them. Another thing to be cognizant of is the language you are using. It’s very tempting to call Trump supporters things like “Trumpets” (and much worse), but this tends to make them tune out to anything else you may have to say. Again, remember that they are fallible humans that, while they may need guidance, also deserve to be treated with a basic level of respect. Along the same vein as language use, avoid using terms and phrases like “that’s wrong,” “you’re problematic/stupid/an asshole etc.,” (even if it’s true). It’s easy to respond emotionally because trying to get people to understand why what they believe is morally reprehensible means a lot to us, but you will have to fight that feeling. Preparing yourself with knowledge and strategies is the best way to combat the feeling of helplessness that causes the upset during discourse.
I guess a lot of it also boils down to getting them to listen to themselves. If you can guide them through their thought process, sometimes I find they start to realize what they say out loud doesn’t actually make sense. If that happens, it’s also important to not catch them in a “gotcha!” moment, even though it’s tempting, because they will feel ashamed and will likely shut down any further conversation. Listen, acknowledge, and make them realize you’re not going to shame them for their choices (you can vent privately to somebody you trust, but don’t take out your emotions on the person you are trying to get through to). At the end of the day, you want to change their mind, and if brute force doesn’t work, gentle guidance often does.  That’s all I can think of for now, I hope some of it is at least a little bit helpful! You’re welcome to continue this discussion, and let me know if you’d like me to respond privately in the future.
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