#I'm not the shipping police and not saying that anyone shouldn't ship them btw

[mhevarujta]

Sauron and Galadriel in The Rings of Power

There's been a lot of talk about Sauron and Galadriel's arc in the show. I've seen reactions vary from 'this is a cheap fanfic and completely against anything Tolkien would ever do' to 'they are in love with each other' depending on the audience and what they desire from the show.

Then there is the MC's recent interview, leading to fans speculating on whether Sauron will try to bring Galadriel to his side again etc. 

My own approach of this show is finding a silver lining of examining as its own thing and examining the characters arcs having in mind broader themes and the fact that his is a condensed timeline, so the entire arc of a character will be basically dealth in about 5 seasons when in the book it spans several ages.

With this in mind, this is the way I perceived what is being done with Sauron and Galadriel: I genuinely don't believe that the writers are going for a romance or for some version of badboy Sauron who becomes darker because he was rejected by Galadriel. I don't even believe that he starts with a genuine chance of redemption as Halbrand on the raft.Since the beginning, Sauron was quite willing to let any companion die. The first time he allows Galadriel to board the raft, she is the sole other survivor and he had let her fend for herself.  The second time, after they had talked, he had already seen her as potentially useful. I've seen the argument that Mairon may feel things that Sauron doesn't, but I don't think that the duality of Mairon/Sauron is prominent at all, if it even exists. 

For one thing, throughout it all he is always presented as someone who tells the aspects of the truth that suited him and that could sway her and those around him to the perception of events and to the course of action that suited him. Moreover, by this point in the show's canon he HAS experienced Morgoth's downfall and his experiments to have power over flesh have happened after his failed attempt at redemption.His choice has already been made.  I feel that he cares for Galadriel because he sees a conflict in her. He doesn't know of the specifics of Galadriel's journey, but he perceives that in a way they are similar... and they are, but it's a juxtaposition that they create.  Galadriel does not go to Aman in 1x01 because she didn't feel peace and didn't want to pursue a version of it for herself while the world was in turmoil. Based on Sauron's own arc in the Silmarillion, after Morgoth's defeat he MIGHT have genuinely repented for a while, but it was because of the fear his master's fall awoke in him. Sauron did not go to Aman because he was afraid of judgement.  In the show Galadriel was afraid of failing her own sense of duty and necessity in a way. But based on what we know... he? He was afraid of uncertainty. To seek redemption, he basically needed impunity in advance if he was to even put in the effort. 

Galadriel's conflict is something he can use. It's something that he can also relate to on an emotional level (but not in terms of its moral context). Her utility, the way he can channel that to manipulate AND the fact that she's beautiful strong and resilient are all factors that capture his interest.  I feel that to an extent he lusted for her, as we know Morgoth had for Luthien.  Nevertheless, what leads to him wanting her by his side is that 'feeling' he addresses in 1x06. Some interpret that  as a romantic confession. Personally I feel he was speaking of control.When fighting by her side he had someone to pull him back and limit him in a way he could not manage himself. If he had that when Morgoth fell he might have managed to be redeemed.  But his tendancies prevail. 

Where one could consider what he felt as a need for companionship and of genuinely having people close to them, for Sauron it's accompanied by an idea of order and control; of binding it to his very being. He twists it into a corrupted notion that just clicks when he meets Celebrimbor and the idea of an object of power comes and clicks with it. He wants that feeling of certainty AND his own twist on power, which beats any purity that feeling that awakened in him might have had, and which is why he sells to Galadriel the idea of them ruling together, even though with control he'd have over her through the ring would basically cancel out any chance she had at setting limits. But it's the feeling and the illusion of it all that matters to him and with regard of himself only. 

Even as he presents them as the saviors of middle earth, she asks something along the lines of 'save or rule?' Sauron not seeing the difference between the two and seing his own dominance and vision as salvation is exactly why he is lost and at the point of no return. It also clearly separates the two. Galadriel WAS tempted in both the book and the show, and in the show she's clearly drowning in her rage and desire for vengeance (I feel that her hunting of Sauron in the show is inspired by that line about her wanting to follow Feanor and thwart him), but ultimately their goals and worldviews are very different, which is why she CAN pull herself back every single time. She has a sense of self and of others that he never had and it's why she can choose to 'remain Galadriel' and not lose everything that makes her who she is because of a desire of power that most people have in one way or the other.Of course, the moment Sauron is rejected, he is very much willing to let her die. I feel this was a pretty big indication concerning how the writers see these two and the fact that, while Sauron may still see uses for her and have his eyes set upon her, there's no chance of the show exploring them as actual love-interests or even allies.

 Then why build this arc in the first place? Because of the themes and the juxtaposition, as I mentioned earlier. Even if we look at their names, there's something interesting there. We have the Dark Lord and the Lady of Light; the Lord of Gifts and the Lady of Gifts; Artano and Artanis; the Lord of the Rings and the Lady of the Ring; the Black Master and the Mistress of Magic; the Black One/Master and the White Lady; the Shadow in the Forest and the Lady of Golden Wood. I don't know, I just feel that the idea of exploring this comes from the right place and was done quite well in season 1. Of course some may disagree and that's their prerogative.

[layzeal]

i think your plea to keep 'shit' out of the main tag is worthwhile, but i don't think most people will understand what it means. to each person, the unacceptable looks slightly different. something that you consider to be drama-causing and shit-stirring to another person, esp a younger person, it isn't, or might even be the opposite. esp when it comes to generational and interpretation differences in language and perceived tone. then it's a big game of 'but what'd i do? i didn't mean it' because people really do stir shit about the most banal things, how could the poster have known they would meet the Number One Discourse Creator on their simple non-confrontational post? or it could be a different game of 'so what, there's no rules against starting a controversial conversation' and they're also right. we can't honestly dictate who does what in the main tag - so long as it's on topic, who actually has the authority to decide what's 'shit' and what's worthy of being seen? you don't have to respond to this btw, i just felt hopelessness at your post. if only!

you know, you're right!! i agree with you! i've just now realized my post would likely make people with like, anxiety disorders or ocd very hesitant to post in the main tag. my intention isn't at all to police what should or shouldn't go there, but for people to think twice before posting something like "ugh x character/ship is so bad and annoying 🙄 here's my bad faith interpretation of why anyone would ever like them and if you do you're ugly and stupid" or "x character/ship is actually the only good thing in this and anyone with anyone bad to say about them is an idiot who never learned how to read" which is a very specific type of discourse bait that, while perfectly fine to post in their own blog, putting it in the main tag for everyone to see? it'll just drive people away from it

but ofc not every post that feels uncharitable or too charitable for a character/pairing is going to be discourse bait, this is fandom and everyone should share their opinion, and posting in the main tag means finding more people that you can talk to about that! it's nuanced and ofc what i consider discourse bait isn't going to be the same another person does, and it's just something we'll have to learn to live with

but that's just all i'm asking for. a little bit more care and consideration, not even for my sake (i don't check the tag that much anyway and cab just block people), but for the sake of the new people arriving who will struggle to get notes on their art and writing if interested parties will have to scroll through rage-baiting hot takes every 5 posts you know?

[wenellyb]

i wasn't really in the mcu fandom before tfatws and wow. coming across bucky stans has been like getting slapped with a live fish even tho i should have seen it coming. i hope bucky's characterization keeps going in ways that piss off his ridiculous racist stans. funnily enough, i felt the show finally made him an interesting character.

Hi Anon!!!

Let me tell you Anon! Bucky up, because I couldn’t agree with you more. Yes to everything you wrote. Especially about pissing off the stans.

I'm not saying this lightly, but they are the worst. The worst.

I've rarely seen this level of disconnection to reality in a fandom (expect maybe the Reylos) and I still love Bucky's character but sometimes I see some posts and I want to ... break things. They manage to make EVERYTHING about Bucky. For them, anyone around Bucky is bad and Bucky has never done anything wrong a day in his  life.

I was just surprised because I had never experienced this before, because when the Sambucky ship was smaller, the nonsense was coming from outside the fandom...But now we’re seeing it from Sambucky shippers as well, like what???

Here's a non exhaustive list of stuff Bucky stans have said, there’s so much more:

- I’ll start with the wildest post I’ve ever seen from a stan:

Screenshot from  @mshunnybunch

- Whenever there’s an accomplishement for Anthony or Sam/ they manage to make it about Bucky and ask why didn’t Bucky or Seb get it too?? They did it when it was announced that Sam Wilson was getting the shield, thy did it when it was announced that Anthony had been signed for a Cap 4 movie, 

Screenshot from @stacee-not-jaxx

- They did it when Anthony was nominated to the HCA Awards for his Captain America role and not Sebastian:

Because no...the nomination couldn’t possibly be because of his talent, right?

- They never congragulate Sam or Anthony, or any costars their only reaction is: What about Bucky, why weren't there any announcement for him too? And when you tell them that this moment should be about Sam/Anthony, they invent the most insane lies like " Sebastian was promised a Solo movie, we have been waiting for 10 years.”

- They treat Sam as the bad guy but never acknowledge when Bucky f*cks up, or when he’s rude."Sam is so awful to Bucky, he treats Bucky like he was responsible for his acts as the Winter Soldier" When did Sam ever do that btw?, “Sam was awful for saying “cyborg brain”

- If you ask them why they always imagine Sam taking care of Bucky and never they other way around, they snap.

- And when you point out that in a healthy relationship one partner shouldn’t be the other’s therapist, they can be a confident but not a therapist, and that Bucky should see an actual therapist... they snap.

- They don’t respect tagging

- The racist posts that were flooding about Ayo, but never mention how Bucky betrayed Ayo’s trust.

-They imagined their own version of MCU Bucky and do not care that it doesn’t match what we have seen on screen.

.- “Uwu why is everyone calling out Bucky’s behavior in the police scene`?”..But then they don’t even think about how Sam must have felt and how the scene was about Sam, not Bucky.

- Comparing Bucky's experience to Isaiah's... Yikes

- Called Sam “petulant and childish” for asking Bucky why he cared so much about the shield since it had nothing to do with him.

- Let’s not even talk about how a lot of them talk about Steve.

- Whenever they make a racist post, instead of listening and ameninding it, they get defensive, start saying things that are actually worst than the original post.

And when they are being called out  on all of this their response is: uwu why does everyone hate Bucky??`? newsflash, it's not Bucky we hate, it's his stans.

I'm a Sambucky shipper but when I see a f*cked up Sambucky post I either call it out or block the OP, but Bucky stans don't do that, they just rally and write rants about how “not all Bucky stans are like that”, and that we shouldn't be generalizing. And I know that because my asks are always open. Here are the asks I get whenever I mention the problem with Bucky stans, these were sent a couple of months ago bty, just using them as an example:

So apparently calling out sh*tty/racist behavior is policing now... So this is basically how the Bucky fandom is, and the so-called “normal” fans remain silent which leads me to wonder where they stand.

And to be clear, I received these asks when I made a post about how I don’t like it when the fandom focuses on Bucky and sidelines Sam. I wasn’t even hating on Bucky or anything so...

This is why I cannot deal with Bucky stans. They live in an alternate reality where a different TV show was airing, and where emitting even the slightest criticism towards their character or their fandom is “hate”... Bucky is always the victim not matter what happens and so are they.

And then there are the  And the “regular fans”, the unproblematic ones, instead of calling out the problematic Bucky stans, come in my asks to complain about how my posts are “anti-Bucky”. Spoiler alert: They’re not.

In the end the people calling out f*cked up posts become the bad guys because they are " generalizing", but they never challenge or call out the problematic blogs directly. So excuse me to "generalize", but if a problematic or racist post in you fandom doesn't bother you, I'm going to assume that you lowkey agree with it. If you don’t have a problem with the toxic stans but you have a problem with people calling out the toxic stans, then I have bad news for you.

If the toxic stans really were a small portion of the fandom, then the problematic posts would be challenged a little more.

I love Sam Wilson as a character but, believe me, I have always been a pro Bucky Barnes blog back in 2016/2017, I was sharing petitions for a Winter Soldier solo movie, but the Bucky stans sometimes make me want to stay away from the character because they are just unsufferable.

The only stans who come even close to the level of toxicity of Bucky stans are Tony and Kylo Ren stans, but at least Kylo and Tony are awful characters on their own...but Bucky stans manage to make a great character with a lot of potential like Bucky despicable.

TL:DR: I love Bucky & hate the stans.

End of rant.

[modernvintage]

mmm maybe don’t encourage smut in a fandom for a kids show whose main characters are mostly minors (julie, carrie, flynn, nick, carlos, and the boys are all minors, and willie is likely to be a minor as well) and whose cast features several minors (madi, jadah, sacha, sonny) though, not to mention a lot of people in the fandom are minors.

Initial response: Haha, oh you have sent this to the wrong blog, my friend.

Grown-up response: Let’s have a chat.

Look, I get it. Kids need to be protected. There are creeps in the world, etc. etc. I am not suggesting that we all go hog wild and start chatting up minors with evil pervy intentions and go buy a van with "free candy" written on the side. I run a JATP fantom olds chat that is specifically only geared toward those 21+ because it's important for adults and kids alike to have safe and happy fandom spaces to engage. Nuance is good. There's a time and place, yadda yadda yadda.

But I will die on the hill that people in fandom can make whatever the hell they want within fandom.

Look. This whole purity police/culture thing that's happening in all fandom is bad. Bad bad bad. Even if it has good intentions (don't you care about the children, Vinnie?! The children!) this shit can go off the rails in .02 seconds.

Where's the line, hmm? Can't write smut because "omg minors might see it!". Then you get people saying what ships are ok and which aren't (already happening, btw), and that you can only write fic or produce art about "approved" subjects, and who the hell makes that list?

I do not believe in hierarchy in fandom. I am a fandom old. The only people who can tell me how to fan are the content creators (to an extent), and they can do that with a cease and desist letter and a whole bunch of lawyers; thankfully we have AO3, so I don't really worry too much about that shit anymore. Fandom has shifted. I subscribe very much to the AO3 method of fandom-ing. Which is...

Tag your shit. You want to write explicit, porny, smutty, filthy fic with minors? Tag it. You want to write ooey gooey coffee shop AUs that are adorable fluffy masterpieces? Tag it. You want to write an end of the world, gritty, bloody, gory apocalypse horror AU? Tag it. Whatever floats your boat, fam. Tag it. You don't have to agree with it.

If people of any age - including minors - want to take a swing at writing sex scenes for JATP, they should go for it. And they should tag it. And those who don't want to read it, shouldn't.

I'm also decidedly not of the opinion that omg sex is bad, btw, which we're ehhhhhhhh skirting a little close to and that makes me uncomfortable. Minors should have a chance to explore their sexuality and learn and grow and mature in a way that is safe for them to do so and fandom can offer that by being an extension of a fantasy and not a real life scenario. It's why tags exist. It's why content warnings exist.

Minors have to be responsible for what they consume on the internet. The internet cannot 100% successfully cater to minors or any other person of various interests and comfort levels, even with the use of tags and content warnings. Personal responsibility and accountability have to coexist with tagging and content warnings.

Fandom does not exist in a vacuum, even for minors. Fandom doesn't go away once people turn 18. People have to self-govern and curate their own experience. People can assist in this by tagging their shit.

And I really, really implore you to consider the effects of your likely positive intentions. You just want minors to be safe and that's cool. As an older member of fandom, I want that, too. But I will still exist and contribute to the fandom that I desire, the same as anyone else should. We, as a fandom, as individuals, should never ever cater to one demographic. We can't. Because then you become exclusionary, and fandom is for all.

And quite frankly? I think a lot of the whole minors debate, especially in JATP, is virtue signaling. It's also really closely intertwined and sometimes twinged with misogynoir/misogyny. The minors on the show are teenagers. There are interracial couples. Not everyone is straight. Teenagers have sex. Teenagers explore their feelings and physicality and that is part of growing up. JATP also tackles a lot of other issues exceptionally well in canon, including grief, home dynamics, and sexuality. And, actually, I don't really agree that JATP is a kid's show. It can be enjoyed by kids and adults alike. I don't see anyone saying that it's not ok for the show and fandom to explore ... being a teenage runaway or fighting with your parents because they don't agree with your sexual identity, which occur in canon and are potentially hard for minors to understand and digest. The fandom has run with both of those examples and I don't often see anyone clutching their pearls about it. But I do see fans policing sex. Why is that? The sex is usually happening between interracial couples, too, and I don't think this fact can be ignored, either, when we're discussing it.

I do have to laugh at the irony of receiving this kind of ask since I purposefully do not engage with a majority of the JATP fandom, because, since it's inception, it's been grossly puritanical. I attribute that to a younger audience of mostly girls who haven't yet come to terms with how society wants to control them, and are therefore mimicking this behavior in their own personal lives and online. But I also think it's a huge culture and demographic shift generally, because I've been a part of fandoms of teenage girls and young women before, and it's never been policed like JATP is.

Anywho. It's ok if fandom talking about underage sex makes you uncomfortable. But what is not ok is for you - or any other fan - to tell other people what they can and can't do in fandom.

So I guess...why do you feel the way you do? Why do you think you're justified in making this decision for an entire fandom? What personal experiences have you had or not had that have informed this decision? What have your experiences been like in fandom? Have you considered all of the different ways this could snowball out of control? What are your honest intentions?

I am asking because it's possible for minors to have a safe and enjoyable experience in fandom where they can grow and learn their own likes/dislikes while underage sex fics exist, while adults run and interact and engage in the same fandom. These things can coexist.

And if you don't like it...you don't gotta read it. If you're gonna write it, tag it. That simple.