#Shinaff

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

Sometimes I just really like to think about post 4-5 and Shinon trying to comfort Janaff after the battle because of how horrifying it was for the laguz. Him thinking it wouldn't be enough anyway bc he's a beorc so his comfort is meaningless bc he can't rly understand what Janaff or any laguz feels about that situation, but Janaff knows that coming from Shinon it doesn't matter if he can ever understand it or not bc it's genuine. If he didn't care or wasn't worried about Janaff, he wouldn't even bother. I like to think that for Janaff that would mean more by itself than whether or not Shinon could actually understand and relate to horrors like that.

[askthesancheztwins]

"Hey, I'm Diablo. This is my twin Ricardo. We went through a lot of trouble over the years but now the Glopnar said we should have an ask blog."

"Who you calling "Glopnar" you shinaff? Anywho ask away!"

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

im not saying that they’re meant for each other, but i am saying that they’re literally meant for each other

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

I REALLY REALLY LOVE THIS OKAY they could’ve given him a personalized one toward Janaff but they didn’t feel like they had to (he does have personalized supports with Naesala and Tibarn and there are a few impersonal but-directed-at-certain-people-i.e,-wonky-RD-style-supports). Technically they could’ve had him In The Middle of His Development like with Tibarn, where he holds back from using “sub-human” in their C support, but he doesn’t even have to correct himself in their A support because he says laguz with no hiccups.

In PoR they don’t have supports, so it makes sense to show that development with a character he hasn’t interacted with, but they didn’t write him in as stumbling and calling Janaff “sub-human” because he already corrected himself in doing that in PoR in their A support, and if they had him do that here then it would be like implying their A support never happened. Since they can’t tell just based on the support dialogue here who he supported in PoR, they didn’t have him have to “rebuild” his developed relationship with Janaff. Their relationship is “already formed” in the sense that he uses the same dialogue he would with other characters from the previous game.

With characters that weren’t playable and thus couldn’t have supports with him, he’s forming those relationships for the first time. Those ones still need to have development. Shinon is still mildly back and forth in this game as if referring to laguz as “sub-humans” by habit (remember, he only started trying to fix that when he met Janaff, and by then he was 27, so... at that point it would a habit he needed to break that had been going on for a very long time). He corrects himself though, even using sub-human but then correcting to laguz in the next sentence.

They could’ve just shrug emoji’d his dialogue and gave him new dialogue with Janaff, but they wrote it in the same way he would refer to someone he was already pretty familiar with. They could’ve changed it so that he was treating Janaff like he was in their C support in PoR (or slightly better than that, seeing as how in his C support with Tibarn he’s not actually rude to him but just stumbles in referring to him as a sub-human), but they kept a more familiar line for Janaff and he doesn’t mention Janaff being a laguz at all.

Technically since this is RD, he’s already had some of his development so he’s not in the same mindset as he was in early PoR, so his C supports with Tibarn, Naesala and Caineghis don’t portray him as being disgusted by laguz.

Granted, all his B support dialogue is just super sassy and it’s great LOL. That’s not even a matter of who he’s talking to. He’s sassy to everyone.

I just really appreciate that they didn’t invalidate a potential existing support for him by restarting his development with Janaff despite that he’s still working on backtracking bad habits with other characters. It would really suck because Shinon only has three supports in PoR and two of them let his existing character shine (being a mentor and a friend), while only Janaff’s actually develops him and would actually fit right in with his characterization in RD. With the way he behaves in RD, it’s almost like he was written with their A support in mind because he acts like the person he became in their PoR A support during the course of RD.

Also, they were one of the ones planned to have a full A support dialogue together before that idea got scrapped for the game, so I’m really happy they didn’t just act like he didn’t know Janaff know. By the end of their supports in PoR they’ve stopped arguing or being rude to each other, so I’m really glad they didn’t just go backwards with that. 🙏

bonus:

rd support system failing to make sense tho LOL

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

How is path of Radiance? Like the characters, writing, the plot.. I heard really good things about Elincia and getting good writing for female characters is so rare in FE games I want to try it now

I'm gonna take a wild guess and ask if it's @randomnameless you heard the Elincia stuff from LOL.

What I will say first about the females before getting into the other stuff is that the females are handled perfectly. They get the same amount and kind of development as the males and aren't there just to be male gaze eye candy. Petrine is the closest thing I could say is like that by appearance, but her personality doesn't match what they do a lot more often nowadays, and she's not a bad character (she's a good villain if nothing else). The females are treated very equally to the males.

PoR also kinda has a "no character left behind" deal where you can continue getting bits and pieces from everyone you recruit, either via base conversations or boss conversations (outside of just supports). Usually in FE after you get a character to join you, that's it and all you get is supports for development, but PoR continues to reuse those characters in various base conversations (including ones that phase out in story importance, like how the Greil Mercenaries are story important but most of them lose importance midgame).

One other good thing though about characters losing importance is that they all do. Aside from the very very main handful, you get sections where different characters get spotlight. For instance, the GMs are the first section of the game, but later on you start seeing more of Begnion's cast, and then you start seeing the bird tribes for a while and so on. Importance is split between a wide range of characters and it gives a whole bunch of them actual story relevance even if they're not in the immediate main handful.

The characters are all stellar because they're all very different and not single-trope based. These days we get one or two tropes and/or aspects about a character (like Boucheron in Engage gets lost all the time and he cries a lot from reading books/generally cries often, and that's... pretty much his whole personality. Citrinne is rich and doesn't know how to give gifts that aren't expensive and wants to protect her people and that's it) and just have to accept that it's their entire character.

There's also a lot of reading between the lines to understand all the characters and not just taking things at surface level. For instance, most people HATE Makalov because he uses people's money and gambles it all away, but he consistently tries to better himself. He ultimately fails in both games to lose that bad habit, but he does regularly bring the idea up of trying to lose that addition and tries to be a better brother for his sister. Just because he fails at actually breaking his bad habits doesn't mean that's it, clean cut, that's all there is to him. He's not my favorite personally, but imo he gets a lot of unjustified hate. He has a gambling addiction but he does have a lot of self awareness and knows when he's being a scoundrel. He doesn't like it, but he knows it's part of him.

For the story and plot, both are fantastic. Everything is connected, even between both games, giving the sense that the game was made with a sequel planned before it was even released. The game literally ends on a cliffhanger ffs lmao. The story starts as just the GMs doing their job, then they get hired to guard Elincia and have to take a journey to do so to gain enough army strength, but once you get about halfway into the game, it starts getting a lot more serious and kind of grows with Ike in a way. Like, he grows more into being a leader and understanding how to manage his mercenaries, but the story progresses with his maturity and becomes in a sense a more mature story.

There's also the way racism is done that's really well handled, in which a good chunk of the cast, including very main characters in both games, start out extremely racist (Tibarn and Reyson are among the most racist, human hating characters in the first game for a good half or more of the game, because the halfway point is chapter fifteen (there are thirty chapters total including the prologue, IF you don't count that chapter 17 is four parts long). Over time they all change and grow at their own pace. Naesala is even a tricky one because he seems like he's still not quite a villain but not really an ally by the end, but he actively drops the term "human" in favor of "beorc" once Reyson informs him he's in service to the Crimean army to repay their deeds in protecting his sister. Even more minor characters like Jill and Lethe take it at their own pace and Jill in particular you get base conversations with repeatedly, where she grows as a person in every single one. She joins you in chapter 12 and is still relevant in her own way through chapter 20, i.e. through base conversations.

Also, I really love that all the characters come together by the end and piece the plot together together, as a group. It's not just the main character and another one or two people who are suddenly like OH I UNDERSTAND. They literally have group conversations to work things out and add their own insight to bring the plot together. For example, there's a conversation with Caineghis, Tibarn, Ike, Soren, Titania, Elincia, and Ranulf where they're all discussing Ashnard and his motivations. They all use pieces of what they've learned individually throughout the war to tell everyone else what they know, and they piece it all together.

It's honestly kind of fascinating to see even now, at least for me, considering FE games don't do that anymore. Usually you get a few characters total who are main characters (like Awakening, how you get a handful of characters who have any plot relevance whatsoever and nobody else gives their two cents about what's going on, despite being part of a large army). It really gives each character individuality and purpose, where it doesn't feel like they're just a number in your army. It feels like another person in your army. Even if not all of them are directly in your army/playable, they still integrate with the story.

Supports are pretty great too because you can glean a lot from just small supports. If you've been following me long enough you knew he was going to come up sooner or later: HURRAY, SHINON, WHOOOO. 🥳🎉🎉🎉 Shinon has a pretty rocky B support with Janaff, but it's so valuable for both of their characters. Both of them think the other is stupid for not knowing "something totally obvious lelzies", but they end up having a good discussion about it and learning from each other, despite Shinon being grumbly grumble bag because he's talking to a yeehaw half-breed who was rood to him last support when he was minding his own business (Janaff had never seen him before but Shinon didn't like the way he was talking to him, so being the idiots they truly are had a ten second verbal battle of "if i wanted to i could kill u, just so u r aware lel"). It ends with Shinon like ugh ugh why am I doing this tho, and he skedaddles and Janaff is all huffy puffy because he wanted to ask more questions about beorc (humans). Their A support is a fountain of goodness for both of them/their characters because you learn a lot about Janaff that I think you otherwise would never even consider. This time it's Janaff who just happily opts out of the conversation after realizing Shinon isn't so bad and he enjoyed learning from him, and Shinon is the one who is like hey wait come back... except last time Janaff was aggravated when Shinon peaced out. This time Shinon is actually interested and intrigued and wants Janaff to come back because Janaff has seen more of the world than him and he wants to hear more, but he's nice about it (there's more development than that, but I'm summarizing to give an example of how supports go in this game).

Can you tell I adore them by the way I make fun of them so intensely? Thank you.

Imo the writing is good enough that I can reread the whole game even despite playing it over 20 times. Sometimes I do just play it for gameplay and skip dialogue, but there are plenty of times I read the whole script over again. The characters are very full of personality with depth and growth. Very few are kind of left in the dust, like extremely late game randoms like Calill and Largo who have no reason to exist except to give you a sage in case for some wild ass reason you did not train any of your three mages by that point, and Largo being the only Berserker class character in the entire Tellius franchise, which is a wah wah when you realize he's not even playable in RD. Probably Tellius' biggest wah wah what's the point, honestly.

Have you seen my posts about Ashnard that get littered around my blog regularly? When I complained about Houses' failures for making an intriguing villain? To put it simply, Tellius has characters like him, who are Happy and They Know It, aka A Villain and They Know It, and then you have villains who have actually unfortunate backstories (yeehaw spoiler for RD just in case you don't know who it is, but it's actually set up in PoR very, VERY sneakily, and you realize it's all there after you've beaten both/beaten RD at least twice because unfortunately there is a chunk of story/plot locked behind a second or higher playthrough in RD, some of which also requires very specific gameplay to have happened). No, I'm not talking about the Black Knight... though he is probably the worst written case of a villain in RD, when he was perfectly handled in PoR. Granted, he also has second or higher run locked story. In fact... so does Soren's entire identity lol. RD really just said replayability or bust.

As much as PoR is my second favorite game, I actually still think that in general it's the absolutely best written story/plot with the most diverse and detailed characters. Tbh I'd go so far as to say it's the actual best, because most FE games lack either in story, plot or characters, or even just lack in tolerable females/female designs. PoR doesn't miss a beat with any of those, and tbph I actively despise PoR Lethe but don't at all mind or dislike her in RD because there's actual growth there and her personality toward the main cast is basically a 180.

RD doesn't handle the group discussions, and adding in as many characters to the story as possible all the way throughout, as well as PoR, but it does try and it does give you various armies to work with to learn about a good chunk of them. It's definitely behind PoR in terms of the three things I've brought up that you asked about (the females aren't sexualized or treated poorly, but I'd argue that Micaiah was a point of contention when the game first came out. Think, Three Houses discourse except it was Ike fans versus Micaiah fans on a significantly tinier scale. Other than her (and Lyre being very annoying imo and having no redeeming traits lol), there wasn't really anything distasteful and the females as a whole weren't mishandled.

Really the worst part about people wanting to try the game is that it's approximately ~300 USD to buy a used copy of the original game, and RD isn't particularly cheap either. You'd be best off playing it on an emulator, but you also unfortunately need at least somewhat decent specs or a gaming computer for RD for it to run well, and POR can run okay on a bland computer but it might look/sound laggy. From my experience when using an emulator for it (since sometimes I like to fuck around with cheats because the debug stuff is so fun in that game), the sound is the worst in laggyness and it's just otherwise a bit slow. It might be doable, but at least much more so than RD. Just might not be a seamless experience, sadly.

If you can play it smoothly either via emulator or have the extra money to dish out (or if you find it up for a cheap enough bid online, or someone does an oopsie and puts it up for a steal), I'd definitely say try to grab one and play it for yourself. It's still awesome to watch a playthrough of if you have no decent access to it, but it's also very fun to play.

Also, it's a super good game for newer FE fans because it's not that difficult. I know lots of newer fans who only know casual and classic as options are a bit deterred from playing older games with no casual mode (FE12 and up have Casual, so anything from Shadow Dragon and backwards doesn't have that option, though SD has the benefit of having save points, like two per map, and RD lets you save at literally any time on any map as long as it's your turn). This game is at least a tolerable difficulty even on normal mode, so if you're really unsure, you can play your first run on easy mode and it should definitely not be too difficult.

There's also an added bonus of a way to tell if you might do well or ill in battle with any character at any given time and that's through the biorhythm, which you can see on the character's menu screen when you shift through their screens. It's a feature only in the Tellius games, but it adds the bonus of determining battle outcomes for every single unit and changes every turn throughout the battle. It's not an absolute, but it's helpful if you're looking at a unit who has a fifty chance of hitting, because if they have a poor biorhythm they're almost definitely not going to hit. If they have a perfect biorhythm, they have an even better chance of getting that hit.

So honestly, if you're struggling to pick a game to play that's older and doesn't have the safety net of Casual mode to help you see the story while not being worried about gameplay messing up getting to watch your favorite characters' development, I'd say pick up PoR and play on easy mode on your first go to make it much more comfortable. It's literally great for newcomers and/or fans who have never experienced classic mode not being a choice, and it has story/plot/characters to match the enjoyment.

Just because it's my second favorite and not my number one doesn't mean I won't advocate for it the most heavily! My favorite is still lacking in a fair bit of things PoR has and has wonderfully done.

Tbh, looking back on it too, even now my opinions on things are still growing and changing. I looked back on my recent ongoing run and went wow, I wonder how I felt about Naesala before chapter 16/17 on my first ever playthroughs, because I actually understand his point of view a lot better even without needing to consider the spoilers I'm now aware of. Just seeing what's in front of me, I actually think Naesala comes across as more likeable of a character than Tibarn and Reyson start out as, then it shifts the other way where they're more likable and he's not, and then it evens out lategame/by the end. After that RD is a rollercoaster with a resolution for a lot of characters, Naesala especially (especially especially if you bring him with you into the last portion of the game, which is a multi chaptered endgame with a set army/characters of your choice from throughout the entire game) that makes playing PoR again even better, because there's a lot of hindsight that was planned in PoR and dropped throughout.

Even if I wouldn't say RD is definitely as fascinating as PoR, it does answer a whole load of questions and makes replaying PoR much more reasonable if you otherwise saw little to no reason to replay it. Since I talked about PoR here it's kind of impossible not to include RD in terms of PoR's story since they are wholly connected, but even just by itself PoR is a perfect experience for story/plot/character balance.

Also, Ranulf is a cat. A blue cat. And he's funny. And he's kind. And he's sweet. Why hasn't he won CYL yet? Why does he not have even a single alt in Heroes yet? There will never be true justice in this world.

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

Sometimes I want to read my friends' fics bc like... friends! Their fics! But then like... my brain reminds me the only fic I read is dmcl.

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

Dimi seeing Claude in a sunflower hat and looking away bc Claude is truly too gorgeous...

...and THE BOUQUET... listen i know it's all premade stuff for heroes journey but LLLLISTEN the idea of claude giving dimi a sunflower bouquet (it's yellow, like them!!!) and dimi blushing as he takes it and HIDES HIS FACE WITH IT

embarrassed fuzzy and warm dimi gives me dopamine

even when it's not canon dmcl it is still peak dmcl

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

uh-oh she's gushing about shinon again and it's super long

So you guys know I love Shinaff. BUT!!! I would like to explain to you part of how that came to be, i.e. how Janaff's supports with Shinon were both different and important!!! In other words, a direct exploration of his development involving laguz and how he's turning out for the better post Janaff A support and RD (and how it makes the most sense to have their A support slotted between the beginning of PoR and the end of RD for a full progression of his development)!

First of all, Shinon only has three supports; so unlike most characters, every line counts and needs to hold more weight to his conversations.

Rolf and Gatrie's supports portray different sides of him: the mentor and the friend. What we see in these supports is stuff we essentially already knew about him, but we're given more depth. The thing to note here is, again, we already knew these things about him. This is the man we started with.

What we don't get in these supports is proper development. Janaff is the only support he has that gives him that. Janaff's supports with him are the only ones that gives him any self reflection and improvement. This isn't necessarily a bad thing for the other supports, but it's more that it props up these ones a little bit more.

Also, when you get to RD, Shinon comes off as though he's already gotten this development. He feels like he's grown as a person. While that makes sense, from a player's perspective, we didn't really see that development in him (like we would have with characters like Ike, Mist, Soren, etc)... unless you supported him with Janaff.

In RD, Shinon has Gatrie and Rolf as bonded by defaults. These are basically internal bonds in RD - ones that aren't needed by supports. You can carry over support data from PoR to RD, and characters will receive a bond with the character they A supported. For some, like Ranulf and Ike, these bonds will be there regardless of if they got an A support.

That means that even without supporting them in PoR, Shinon will bonded to these two by default. Janaff is his only other support, so if they reach an A support and that data is carried over to RD, he now has his full list of supports bonded to him. Mind you, that's a liiittle bit of a big deal (and kinda cool to me!) as nobody else can do that (or almost nobody, since I'm not totally positive what Stefan and Volke's situations are and would have to check on that in my game, as the only other characters with an extremely low amount of supports).

So why do I say that's important? Because the only character he won't have by default as a bond is Janaff. You have to go out of your way to get their support bond (and when I say out of your way, I mean it pretty literally if you don't normally use one or both of them, due to how PoR's support system works). Janaff is the only character Shinon has to build up a bond with from scratch, which is something the player has to decide to do.

Gatrie and Rolf are the base - the bare minimum. It's given to you, no questions asked. Shinon doesn't have to develop as a person to have those bonds. When Janaff arrives in 3-7, if they were A supported in PoR (and your data was carried over), he and Shinon automatically have their bond show up in the bond list on each of their profiles as of the turn Janaff is on the map. This also means they can get a double A support, which is, again, something Shinon has very few options for.

Without Janaff, Shinon doesn't get that extremely direct development. In RD it's assumed all the characters had development of some sort (example, Shinon is much more chilled out and takes a much more active role in watching out for the GMs and making sure they're properly funded). However, with the way Shinon's development toward laguz went, you'd think something must have happened for him to change his mind.

However, it's an uncontestable fact that Ike stated everyone in the GMs decided to stay knowing full well they'd be fighting for the Laguz Alliance:

"I told the others they could leave if they didn’t want to work with laguz, but everybody decided they’d rather stay. Don’t worry about it, Ranulf."

If they didn't want to work with laguz (Shinon and Soren would be the primary candidates he brought this up for), they didn't have to go. They didn't have to take part. They didn't have to be there. Shinon decided to stay despite fully aware they would be the only beorc there. That's development already... but if he supported Janaff, it starts to make more sense and feels like a proper linear path for his development.

"But DCB, he was racist toward Lyre!" Sure! He's not perfect and there's still room for growth. In fact, Shinon started out calling her a sub-human but referred to her as a laguz when Gatrie was the only one left to hear him, so he either:

is trying to keep up appearances in front of laguz he doesn't like, using sub-human to their face but not using that term in private anymore (or to laguz he doesn't hate, i.e. Janaff in their A support where he catches himself about to use that term. Though he wasn't quite ready to say "laguz" yet, he stopped himself from using "you sub-humans" and instead said "you guys").

slipped up in using sub-human (from habit*) and called her a laguz when speaking to Gatrie because he's becoming more used to using that term regularly. That is to say, it's becoming more natural for him to say.

If you got his A support with Janaff, it makes sense that he slips up sometimes still but is trying to speak more properly about laguz. Getting out of old habits is hard. Feeling differently about something you've had a steady mindset for (in his case for 27 years as per his support with Janaff) is hard. There will be slip ups.

*It's possible Shinon uses "sub-human" as an insult aimed at individuals he doesn't like while not meaning it toward others (i.e. he doesn't like Kyza and Lyre). Yes, this is a big flaw! He could very well be using a racist term to express distaste toward someone specific but not mean it toward the whole of laguz. It's still racist and shouldn't be done, but the fact that he turned around and said "laguz" only a couple sentences later (if that) means that something is kicking in and some gears are turning.

Again, if you look at his A support with Janaff, he wasn't even at the point of using "laguz" at all! If you consider their A support part of his linear development, he starts as he is in PoR, supports Janaff and goes through their conversations while seeing laguz differently now, and ultimately ends at respecting Janaff. Despite this, he's not ready to use "laguz" yet because he experiences with laguz to date, prior to Janaff, had all been presumably negative enough for him to develop this racist mindset.

Linearly, that brings us to RD. He's suddenly fine staying with the GMs and fighting a war on behalf of the Laguz Alliance, even when he was directly given an out. Next, we have him refer to a laguz as a laguz - something he wasn't able to do yet in PoR.

Does the linear progression stop there? Not if you supported Janaff! Following those things, again, when Janaff arrives in 3-7, their bond will show up in their profiles. These bonds are separate from RD support bonds in that they're basically saying these characters were bonded before the events of RD and thus have special bonuses near each other, regardless of if you support them in RD.

So where does this lead us? Well, like in PoR, we start to lose focus on the GMs as a whole and only end up with focus on a few of them. Our next line of progression can only come from supports again. These are notable and extremely important if he's supported with a laguz.

If it's Janaff you support him with in RD, he gets one of his standard support quotes in battle. Maybe you're thinking that sounds unimpressive and unimportant... but this means he's responding to Janaff as someone he's familiar with and not treating differently from the others (which is not the case when responding to several others, which I'll get to). Normally you'd expect him to treat a laguz differently, but he speaks with Janaff like he would to any beorc.

It gives off an air of familiarity - like they already know each other, are passed all that nonsense and aren't even thinking about it anymore. This is, of course, the case regardless of if you supported them in PoR (but again, I find their PoR supports to be important in terms of a proper, full linear progression of Shinon's development, which is something not every character actually even gets, i.e. they don't get a fully fleshed out and ongoing development story between both games if they're not a main character).

It's almost like it's considering that you may have gotten their PoR supports. It has to leave it up in the air as to whether or not you did, because it'd be odd if he was suddenly treating Janaff like they weren't as familiar with each other after getting their PoR supports. In other words, by default, their relationship in RD is not as bad as it starts in PoR in their C support. It feels like they've already supported and are closer now to be at this point.

So why is it important that he acts no different with Janaff than anyone else? Because he does act different near laguz kings. He's given special, personalized lines to the laguz kings and refers to them sincerely as laguz. Important to note is that the laguz kings only become playable in part four (Tibarn and Naesala) and Endgame (Caineghis).

These are characters he would have absolutely no chance at having any development with in either game prior (even if you consider time spent in PoR, Tibarn and Naesala are not playable until the final chapter and you can only pick one of them. Caineghis, plain and simple, is not even an option). That means his supports with them are the very beginning of their relationship.

This is by part four. There's been development since part three in his character that we don't see. He's now openly referring to them as only "laguz" (remember, he was back and forth earlier in RD). He treats them with respect.

"But DCB, of course he does! They're kings! They're powerful!" But the Shinon we started out with in PoR wouldn't have cared less. To him back then a sub-human was a sub-human. Even as allies, he wouldn't have respected them (re: his C support with Janaff). Instead, here, in RD with these supports, he can talk with laguz directly, refer to them as such, and give them respect.

He also doesn't start out being intentionally racist toward them. He's at the point, by the time he can support the laguz kings, where he skips right past the active "sub-human" bullshit.

What do I mean by that? Well... I mean with Tibarn, he almost says sub-human but catches himself and doesn't just say "you guys" like he did with Janaff in their A support (which came before his C support with Tibarn if you consider his development linear and including Janaff). He corrects himself, and instead uses "a king" - similar to his "you guys" pull back, but outright referring to him as a king is actually a step above that (and again, this is their C support).

King Tibarn. It seems like a sub-hu– I mean–a king such as yourself can hold your own.

He's learning! He's growing! He's maturing! He's realizing he can get out of that mindset! All his experiences prior to PoR, based on his supports with Janaff, would imply he's only ever known that he has to protect himself against them. He never got to actually meet one. When he did, it was hard to pull himself out of old habits for new experiences. He was trying for Janaff, but he wasn't quite there yet. Here, he does something very similar.

With the other kings, he just outright refers to them as kings with no stumbles.

Hey, Lion King! Of anybody here, it seems like you’d be just fine.

Raven King, you seem all right. No need to be babied, I hope.

Mind you, the latter is pretty standard Shinon in personality. It's unrelated to Naesala being a laguz. However, both are these are completely respectful as a person talking to another person.

For his B supports we have:

I thought you were the all-conquering King Caineghis! And yet, you mess up. Bizarre. You better stay by me.

Hawk King, whew, even you mess up sometimes. Kinda makes me nervous. You better stay by me.

Raven King–your fighting? Not good. Just…stay by me and let me handle this.

Bizarre, he says, that one of the strongest people he knows is having trouble. He's actually surprised. No comment about how sub-humans suck or anything, not here!

Similarly, even Tibarn messes up sometimes. He's surprised. He expects basically perfectly from Tibarn (so this presumes he has positive expectations of him from what he knows of Tibarn).

Naesala's fighting isn't good? Well what does PoR Shinon care! Let him die! But that's not RD Shinon (and remember, these quotes could've been anything else considering he got specifically personalized quotes with these three, and personalized quotes for RD supports are somewhat few and tend to be for specific pairs).

Stay by me, he says! The same things he'll say to anyone! To any beorc and to any laguz. Again, personalized quotes did exist and they were there for certain pairs. Those pairs got special quotes specifically for their relationship). He didn't avoid saying "stay by me" just because they were laguz.

Mind you, his support quotes with these three are much more respectful than usual Shinon. He's very, uh, hilariously Shinon (there is a word for this, however at this time I cannot think of it 😔. I am not thinking of sarcastic, I am thinking of... something else. Granted, these lines are directed to Reyson and Rafiel, who technically can't fight... so I'll give him a break on that one) in most of his quotes, and some don't sound particularly respectful ("Prince ___, it’s really hard to watch you fight. Why don’t you stay by me and let me handle this?").

Now for the A supports (and BOY HOWDY I'M EATIN' GOOD HERE)...

You know, I’m not one for making friends and being nice. But, Caineghis, I gotta say, you are one bad laguz. In a good way! Hang in there.

I gotta admit… I didn’t like you when I first met you. But, Prince ___, I hope you make it through all this. I was wrong about you.

You know, I really don’t care who lives and who dies. But, Hawk King, for a laguz– hey, for anyone–you seem pretty decent. I hope you make it.

You know, I never thought I’d say this, but… King ___, I’m thinkin’ you should live. Don’t ask me why! Just a crazy notion. Maybe I like you?

Not one for making friends and being nice in general, with beorc, but he's befriending a laguz? Well now! What would PoR Shinon pre-Janaff say!

If you need me to explain the lines to Reyson and Rafiel to you, I have no hope for you at this point. If you can't read "I was wrong about you" and understand what that means, you might need to go back to school. In fact you definitely do.

For a laguz - no, scratch that because that doesn't fucking matter anymore - for anyone - you seem pretty decent (<-- this is the way Shinon talks to everyone).

Maybe he likes Naesala? Maybe they're friends? Maybe he just admitted he's fond of a laguz? Maybe he just said he likes a laguz??? Gosh jolly, early PoR Shinon is rolling in his grave!

So uhhh, what does this have to do with Janaff? Well, like I said, I feel like their supports slot perfectly into Shinon's development that's going to exist anyway. It's like the middle part of it that you get to see but also may miss out on. It's like jumping from PoR to RD and wondering what on earth happened in between to bring Shinon to that point... and if you consider his A support with Janaff, it makes sense that that's what happened. It fills that gap, and it also slots in perfectly with where he is in his development as a character between two games.

Timeline:

PoR start - Shinon hates laguz. He seems to hate them for reasons unknown. Greil dies; Shinon leaves. Chapter 18 is reached and Shinon is recruited back into the GMs. Despite that the GMs are now working with the Crimean army which has actively allied itself with the beast and bird tribes, Shinon whatevers his way through that fact and rejoins. He'll tolerate, he guesses. Fam is here.

Cue Janaff supports. New birb, who dis, except he's rude! Yes folks, it was Janaff who was rude first (his lines were also very Janaff... who is very like Shinon, so it makes sense that would get a negative reaction from Shinon even if he was a beorc). Shinon is set off and now thinks he was right to hate laguz. Look at this annoying birb face and his dumb lil hat!!! Better threaten to kill him just to be safe...

B support, they're having a conversation and learning from each other because Janaff came over to apologize. He knows he was in the wrong to nag at Shinon just for being an unfamiliar face. Shinon is still pissy though because it's a goddamn birb with a hat!!! Their conversation is a mix of ugh fuck this annoying guy to actually talking things out... and Shinon admitting why he hates laguz - because he's always needed to protect himself from "those half breeds". Sounds like his only experiences were very negative, so he ends up racist. Well, Janaff was also racist until very recently for similar reasons, and he used to think all beorc liked to kill. He, too, had misconceptions that bred a racist hatred. Now, though, with Shinon talking to him, he's realized he was wrong about beorc and is open to seeing things differently. Shinon backtracks, realizing he's having this conversation with the birb with a hat and wonders why.

A support, they talk more and it's getting better... and Janaff not only admits to relating to Shinon - which is a nice touch because they're two sides of the same coin who are both still very much learning about each other's races - and mind you Janaff was racist at 110 years old so he's been doing this shit for a while! It was because he talked with Shinon and learned more about beorc that, on top of what Ike did for Leanne, he's being more open minded now. Janaff, understanding where Shinon is coming from (ignorance and misconceptions), is much more polite and kind to him. Shinon, in response, backtracks when he almost uses the racist term "sub-human" so as not to offend Janaff, leaves off here respecting him and, when Janaff has to leave because the support is over, calls him back because he wants to hear more about the world from him because Janaff has lived for so much longer. Maybe the birb with the hat isn't so bad at all after all!!

From here the GMs fight with laguz allies until the end of PoR. Two or three years pass idk shit's inconsistent I guess, and we get to RD.

By this point Shinon has already been in an army that allied with and fought alongside laguz, and maybe that's tempered his feelings. When given an out from joining the other GMs in their aiding of the Laguz Alliance, and as the only beorc, he chooses to stay with the group.

At this point he's back and forth with "sub-human" and "laguz". There's definitely improvement, but old habits still get out sometimes. Still though, he's progressed from "you guys" to outright using "laguz".

The laguz kings join in the fight against Ashera. Shinon can support them, getting personalized quotes specifically for them (and for the herons). With Tibarn, he catches himself and corrects what he almost said - something he did once before with Janaff as per this linear timeline. That's the only instance left of a mistake in his wording. By now he's not using "sub-human" at all (B and A support with Tibarn or C-A with Caineghis or Naesala), or he's freely and without stumbling using "laguz" with no "you guys" esque backtrack.

This is obviously only one aspect of Shinon's development, i.e. the development of him growing out of racism similar to Janaff, and there are more aspects to him that did develop and grow throughout both games, but this post was specifically to highlight the importance of having Janaff there as part of his growth. Without it, it's like a blank, empty spot in his development where you don't know how it started happening and to such a degree (how did he go from outright using sub-human to using laguz at all? It feels like there had to be something in the middle of that growth, and without Janaff's supports it's just missing.

With them though, it's quite clear how he reasonably went from sub-human to "you guys" to laguz with some slip ups (ones that he corrects himself with if he actually respects the person, in this case Tibarn. He didn't bother correcting it with Lyre and Kyza because he didn't like them, which again, is still a flaw, but that was prior to his ability to support the laguz kings. It would be more reasonable to say he's starting to grow out of using "sub-human" just to specific people as an insult by this point.

Mans ain't perfect, but he's trying and he's working on it. Why is that without Janaff involved in his development? I 'unno, I guess he just had some random offscreen development between the games. With Janaff though? It actually works, fits and makes sense. It feels like that part of his development is meant to be there, as it compliments his development going forward.

that's it that's all i had to say bye now

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

Hiiii, I just wanted to say Thank You, legitimately, for all of the very very good shinon posts you've made (you've hit the nail on the head why I like him so much as a character (also I'm playing through por for the first time and gd the growth in RD was so visible to me right away (for him and jill, but seeing soren act as he has legit surprised me and now i am going 'i can fix him' towards soren). Also! I am a big fan of Shinaff as well <3

Do you have any thoughts or posts on Zelgius, Tibarn, or Naesala? I'd love to hear more of your thoughts and with those 3 being....well, themselves, I'm very curious :3

THANK YOU FOR READING THEM ALL. Also THANK YOU for loving him!!! I'm so happy to know someone is seeing his growth from both games.

I actually recently met someone in another fandom who told me they've always been a Shinon fan and grew up around people who were also fans so they never even realized how hated he is in the fandom. I was like DAMN, wish I grew up with you guys lmao. It's so hard being a huge fan of him when people don't bother looking past a single trait, but will excuse it in Soren just because he's the resident gay twink (and idk that he's even gay more than just Ikeromantic LMAO).

I love Soren but he's arguably worse than Shinon in the bad habit department that everyone hates Shinon for, given that his reasons for being kinder to laguz is only for Ike and not for personal growth, whereas Shinon's growth is because he's realized he's been wrong and again, also why I argue his supports with Janaff are so incredibly important to him. It's like the mid development that's missable in a given playthrough, but so important as the bridge between games.

I know I had an ask once about Jeritza and Zelgius that I believe @reneethegreatandpowerful sent, but I can't find it now and I've had so many asks that wading through them, tags and all, was fruitless LOL. Otherwise I might have said some things about Naesala here and there, but not really Tibarn. When it comes to Tellius I don't talk much about the overly beloved characters because other people do it all the time anyway.

I do find both of them interesting in that Tibarn was pretty nasty originally, and when I recently replayed PoR I realized that nowadays, if I'd been playing for the first time, that I would have leaned more toward Naesala's arguments at the laguz gathering. I think because back then, my first time playing, I was basically just a kid (I mean this was in like 2005ish? I was very young) so I kind of was lured in with thinking Naesala was "bad" at first (I came around to him eventually, but little me didn't use her brain in video games as much as I would've liked her to when she was in grade school LOL).

That's a really generalized point overall, but mainly just to give you an idea that yeah, I think about them! I just don't write about them as much because Shinon needs the help more LMAO.

If you have any specific questions though I'm totally fine with answering them!

Also fuck yeah for the Shinaff fans. We are smol in number but we are powerful in brain. >:3

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

Still kind of confused, but I think I might have a similar phenomenon. For example, I don't really care about Mario and Peach all that much, but still feel that Mario x Peach is right and proper. I don't think that's quite the same as what you're talking about, but it's all I got, haha.

I'm a bit confused about the definition of hateship, but I don't hate Jarcaiah, I like it. Not necessarily in a very romantic context, but I think they're an interesting duo and like to put them together. It helps when it's one of my nonsensical Jarod redemption AUs.

Which make no sense, because he would never, ever reform. Dude is just too evil. But that's why we like him, right?

And would you stop liking the same things as me!? XD I like Hubernie, too! Not as much as Edelbert, but I am fond of it.

Yeah, that's basically what I mean! It's kind of like, I just accept it and see it as canon in the sense of, say, if I wrote a fic, it would be probably be there. If I was writing a Mario fic about whatever, Mario and Peach would just be together because even though I'm not really into it as a ship, I consider it something that's there and definitely not something I dislike enough to just ignore it.

Hateship isn't referring to the shippers! It's about the ship itself and is two people who hate each other (and typically in the sense that it doesn't get better, where they always hate each other at least in canon) but is for whatever reason someone's ship.

A redemption AU is interesting for him! I think it's possibleeeeee... but not something he personally would consider trying to do since at least in my mind, I don't think he considers himself evil. I think he sees himself as correct. Knows he goes overboard and stuff but considers what he's doing to be the right thing, since Daein was pretty horrible in the last war, so maybe to him this is their just desserts and they're getting what they have coming.

If you remember, the people of Talrega were pretty awful people. They may have been distressed, but they absolutely despised the Crimean army and blamed all their woes on them, and not the actual author of the war who caused all of it. They said some pretty nasty things, including the lady who vowed revenge for generations to come if she couldn't do it, and even made her sister go hungry instead of accepting food from the Crimeans. In Jarod's mind it's possible he's proud of being from Begnion and being a soldier there and just thinks this is what the citizens deserve, because the citizens were also pretty awful during the war. Obviously it's not that black and white, but maybe to him it is).

Also, I feel like Alder wouldn't have been so loyal to him or "felt a kindred spirit in him" if there wasn't anything there beyond just pure evil. A redemption arc could be interesting for Jarod because I think he actually saw the Daein people as scum who deserved what they got. Not sure if he needs redemption for killing some of his own soldiers though considering... they were also doing the same shitty things LOL.

He probably wouldn't reform himself at least regarding Daein. We don't know what he thinks of Crimea as far as like, would he kill their people and such too? Since their militaries are technically allies and the Crimean people aren't seen as "bad", etc, a sort of reform could be possible for him as just like... being better to others. To Daein people though, yeah, I think he'd always despise them and consider them below him.

BUT REALLY THOUGH LOL, he's just so funny when he's being an ass. I can't hate the guy when he's throwing out hilarious one liners like that.

Idk man, if it means us liking the same things means I can convert you to Shinaff, I'm all for it. :P

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

Seeing all the nice tag comments on my Shinaff comm makes me want to write them more. ;v; Maybe more ppl will like them and maybe ppl will stop hating Shinon bc they will understand him better. ;v;

[dimiclaudeblaigan]

Ah, thank you for answering my silly ask!

Hmm, I think I might understand. I ship a lot of things where I feel strongly about one of the characters but don't really care about the other. But it sounds like you're more logical in your approach, thinking about actual dynamics and chemistry. I'm just like: Oh look, it's my fav. Who can he be cute with?

I like Pelleas, too. :)

Also, I saw your Tellius tier list too, and I have a bone to pick with you about Jarod x Micaiah! Hahaha, just kidding.

Unless-

Sometimes I just take ages to answer simple things lol, sorry about that!

I love pairing my faves when I find a good ship for them, and then there are some others that I don't ship or pair with anyone like Oscar. A favorite, but I have no romantic ships for him and see him as more of a family man with the GMs and not interested in romance. He has his brothers and extended family, and he even told Kieran in their PoR supports that he intended to stay with the GMs and continue to fight with them as a mercenary forever because that was what made him happy.

Typically for me ships pop up out of chemistry and that's when I find them cute. Take dmcl for instance. Dimitri was my fave when I started shipping them, but I've always liked Lorenz as a character and through his development more than Claude. I ended up liking Claude more after shipping him with my fave because it made me think deeper into his character and gave me more chances to interact with his characterization. It made me appreciate Claude as a character more, and I originally just shipped him with Dimitri because I enjoyed their chemistry and the possibilities it had. Prior to them I liked Dimileth, but Claude had my little ship brain gears going with Dimitri (and it doesn't help that like 90% of official Houses artwork sticks them together. Not my fault IS treats like them they're attached at the hip LOL).

Then you have the ones that sprout off of development via interaction, like Shinaff. Dumbasses basically threatened murder to each other when they first met! RD's supports are a combination of both impersonal and personal, but Shinon uses his generic lines for Janaff, indicating familiarity (versus Tibarn, Naesala and Caineghis as other laguz whom he actually has personal lines directed at and are people he couldn't interact with in PoR. In fact, most of his personal support lines are directed at laguz and are all positive). If you didn't get their supports, his first interaction with Janaff is wholly negative, but his first support line in RD is positive. Because of that I like to consider it the next step in their support chain, so post A support in PoR but C support in RD, rather than just no support in PoR and a brand new support chain for them in RD (and it helps that RD carries over supports, so they do get an internal bond that gets listed in their bios if they've carried their A support over). It feels more natural that way for me, especially since Shinon only has three supports in PoR. I also love how they were both originally racist and overcame that, and since Janaff overcame it first before meeting him, he helped Shinon overcome it by talking with him.

Tbh I'm a bit weird with ships I think because I even ship things for characters I just don't even care about much if at all, or I might ship something as "that's cute/that could work" when I don't actually care much for the ship itself? Sometimes I can explain it in depth depending on the ship (ex. Fogado/Yunaka is among the "I ship this because of what it could bring but I don't really care about it enough to make/request content for it), and sometimes it's like Bernadetta/Hubert where I'm like I ship this but I don't care at all if it's present or not. Mind you, I like Hubert as a character and Bernadetta is one of my most despised characters in the whole franchise, so... I'm weird when it comes to ship chemistry I guess LOL.

Unless... Unless... you have a hate ship you like? LOL. My "what" list is a combination of "where on Tellius did this ship even get thought up and why is it here" and "I have no idea how you could ship this", but also "I think this is a hate ship" LOL.