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yellowbluemoonshine · 4 years

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One of my triggers is when someone says that villain cannot be or deserve to be redeemed. Like they acknowledge the tragic circumstances, but they say like the villain show no remorse for killing innocent people or just want to destroy everything. I really don't like people saying they want the villain have some naruto's redemption. But I feel like they missed point of why many of us want it. The villains never had a choice unlike endeavor or afo.

Agreed.

I think some people dont understand the meaning of redemption. Redemption means facing with what you did, taking responsibility and this is the best thing that person can do. To me, there is no such thing that great villain or best villain, something like improving yourself to be better villain cause being a villain is literally comes from choosing to not improving yourself to be better person. People dont choose to be evil or bad, they learn all bad things from their environment. They just simply dont choose to be better person and thats the flaw of "villains" have. Choosing to do wrong things usually comes from lack of goodness, lack of empathy.

Like, Overhaul was abandonded and traumatized by it. He was used as a tool by Yakuza. They used a child. And Overhaul became a yakuza and he truly wanted to pay his boss for taking him in. But what makes overhaul “bad” guy is not choosing to be yakuza cause he was groomed to be, his flaw was choosing to not changing. He could’ave emphatize with his underlings and could connect with them. He could emphatize with Eri cause Eri is just like her, she was abandoned and taken by Yakuza. Overhaul went to school and had people around him, instead of obsessing with past, he could open himself to new people. he could gain new different perspectives, he could at least try. Overhaul didnt suddenly decide to destroy little girl, he learnt those horrible things from Yakuza but when he could choose to be better person, he didnt.

There is a reason that Shigaraki is meant to be parallel with him. Unlike Overhaul, Shigaraki didnt go to school and he didnt have people around him, he was isolated but when he met with other people, he chose to care, listen their needs.

This shows that Shigaraki choosing to change but there are villains who doesnt want to change. I dont know that what kind of person Overhaul would be, if he had better life or if he could ever change for better but for now, he doesnt seem to want to change and story didnt give any hint about it.

There is a reason that some characters get redemption but some do not. The characters/villains who dont get redemption or who dont want to change is not cool or “loyalty to their evil cure” or something like that. They are people who choose easy ways cause redemption means taking responsibility and trying to be better person, improving yourself as person is not easy at all.

Murder is bad, wrong, yes but we all are humans equally and people dont just suddenly decide to doing worst thing. And sometimes, people dont have too much choices, sometimes they can be in hard situtions, sometimes they do things to survive, many reason can be, we cant know that. So yes, murder is bad but that doesnt mean that murderer is bad person.

The thing that many people ignore is anyone could do those horrible things. Lets say, you are in hunger game. If you dont kill, other person will kill you. Many people would choose to kill. Or lets say, if you dont kill, they will your family or you are hungry and if you cant kill that person, you wont get food. blah blah. Point is what importance is not the degree of crime.

Most important thing is How aware is the perpetrator of what he is doing? Under what conditions did he make this choice? when and where did he make this choice?

Abuse, rape, murder. These things are all bad things (i wont talk about rape cause i dont have enough information about it cause it mihgt relate a lot of things.).

For example, Endeavour abused his family, Shigaraki killed people. Many people wouldnt care abuse or bullying cause “its not like they died”, most people tell them to get over it and they ignore all the effects of abuse. (This is actually what bnha focus on. Abuse.) Well, of course killing is pretty bad though.

Now, we can ask the questions.

-What Endeavour did?

Violence towards his family

When Endeavour made this decision?

He was grown man, basically when he was an adult, an age that you are responsible for your actions cause you can see the difference between right and wrong and you are capable of holding yourself

Under what conditions did he make this choice?

He did work so hard to be No 1 hero but he failed, um, he has money, access to a lot of things, good education so of course, when you worked hard and you dont get results, you will be so upset, it would be hard. But we can say that Endeavour wasnt even really in hard sitution at all.

What kind of choices he made?

He chose his ambitions over well being of his family. So basically he made very selfish decision with his own will for the sake of selfish desires and it resulted with other people’s getting hurt and Endeavour didnt even care about that.

How this selfish decision affect other people?

His wife became unstable and stayed in hospital for 15 years, she is still in there

Shouto lost his all childhood, he was traumatized and still having flashbacks from his trauma

Fuyumi had to act like a parent since her young age, Natsuo has anger issues cause of all this stuff

Touya/Dabi literally dealing with mental issues, identify disorder cause of abuse effects

So basically, Endeavour is fully responsible for what he did.

Btw for the people who dont know, this is a crime in real life, he should be arrested but look at what he got. He decided to change, like 6 months ago or something. Except of his hero job, he apologised and left the house for them and thats it. Rei and Fuyumi already is ready forgive him cause Rei wants his children to be happy cause Endeavour took that hapinness from them, Fuyumi just wants happy normal family cause Endeavour took that normal family life from her, Shouto is forcing himself to forgive cause to be able to be hero, he needs to work with his father and his all family wants this. From people’s eyes, Natsuo seems “someone who couldnt get over past” just because he didnt forgive his father or just because he didnt act like nothing happenned, he gets social pressure from it. This probably didnt happen, if Endeavour wasnt prohero.

Now, lets look at Shigaraki.

What Shigaraki did?

Murder, kidnap, threatinning, violent behaviours without hesitations

When Shigaraki made this decision?

Lets look at how it all started.

When Shigaraki chose to kill people?

when he was 5 years old? when he was 7-8 years old when Afo manipulate him to kill people? or when he became an adult and continuing this murder?

Point here is; children cant be responsible for crimes for a reason cause they dont have ability to understand what is right what is wrong.

so when he killed his family; it was accident except his father.

But with his father, it was self defense. Many people want to believe that it was intentional but its not, his father hit him and he reacted to violence, thats it. There is also other fact that children can not able to hold theirselves, especially like when you just watched all your family s death in front of your eyes.

So, logically he can not be responsible for his family’s death.

When he was 7-8 years old, Shigaraki is making a decision here and from this moment, he continues the murder but what kind of decision he is making? Under what conditions did he make this choice?

He was traumatized and he is dealing with abuse effects, his anger, negative feelings that he has no idea to how to deal with, he didnt get any education, he doesnt have people who will give him a different choice or people who wil give him some kind of affection, he is literally with Afo all alone, isolated, dont know what to do, doesnt know what is right and Afo says him “you have two choices”

1- suffer lonely forever like this while others are having fun but just you know, you will be disappointed for me-the person who saved you, if you stay like this

2- destroy anything you dont like and make me proud

This didnt happen right when he was 7-8,

Shigaraki is with Afo since he was 5, he listened those words for years and he hold himself back. Then the decision Shigaraki make was first one, he hold himself, until the moment holding himself is not an option. This is why he became a murder. Let me remind you, he was 7-8 so he still wasnt responsible for killing at that age.

so you can say, now Shigaraki became an adult so he can choose but we all know that people dont grow, if they dont have a chance to grow.

People kill to survive, this is not to justify murder, this is understanding of that sometimes some people can not really make choice in some situtions.

If a person is not given growth conditions, children cannot grow.

Shigaraki may have grown biologically, but mentally, he was not given the opportunity to grow. What makes us humans human is our interaction with other people.

If we do not interact with anyone, we lose our identity or in the case of Shigaraki, our personality does not occur. If Shigaraki has not grown, how can he be considered an adult?

We know that many terrible events such as trauma and violence can cause long-term damage to people's brains regarding mental health. So, how can Shigaraki's trauma be responsible for what she does, given his mental health?

We know that it is impossible not to lose mental balance in conditions of Shigaraki, it is impossible to grow, it is impossible to protect his mind against manipulation at the age of a child. So how exactly could Shigaraki cope in these conditions?

This is the problem. He cant not be able to handle it. Impossible.

You might say you could choose not to kill, but while the only adult who was with him showed him that it was true, and how he could otherwise deal with these feelings he had accumulated in him, what else could Shigaraki do?

Shigaraki kills without hesitation because killing is all he knows, the only thing he has been taught.

That's why Shigaraki's interaction with his team is important because it was the first time in his life that he met different opinions and people.

So he started to heal throughout the series. He chose to improve, to be a better person. So this character can get redemption.

And he feels guilty about what he does, but he does not show it by crying, he shows treating his own life as nothing and harming himself. Shigaraki may have begun to develop herself, but it does not mean that his trauma will cure magicly and he will suddenly getting away from Afo manipulation, he cant because he still hasn't given her another choice. No one was able to show him another way to survive both without suffering and having to kill. That's why it's important for a hero to reach out him.

Yes, Shigaraki killed a lot of people and they didnt deserve it, of course but whether he killed one person or killed million people, he had no choice. Everyone wants this character to pay the price because they want to blame someone for those much death, whereas like Afo and Ujiko who made Shigaraki suffer, those who choose not to reach Shigaraki when they can reach like Gran Torino etc, are more responsible than Shigaraki for what they did because they choose. But Shigaraki is just putting into practice what he has been taught, thats all he knows.So people really want to blame someone, they should blame people who could do something about it but choosing not to, they could blame the people who hurt this kid for their selfish reasons, they shouldnt blame the kid who is just reacting his pain cause he doesnt have a choice, he is not making a decision and people REACT.

Shigaraki can not understand his actions of how he effect other people / effect of his actions cause he is hardly be able to see them as an indiviluas, thats what happens, when you live your life as isolated. Shigaraki cant care other people s life while his own life was treated as worthless, they literally ignored his pain, even when he was a child. Shigaraki cant emphatize with people in society who have good lifes cause he never felt a safety his all life, there is no way he can understand their comfort. So basically, in those conditions, its not that Shigaraki doesnt want to emphatize with them, he CANT.

(This is why he asked Deku cause he is trying to understand at least to be able to improve himself for better which is the most important thing).

This is why people like Afo, Ujiko, Hero commity, Endeavour, they are worse than people like Shigaraki, Dabi, Hawks, Toga etc cause those people who created these “monsters” with their full will for the sake of their selfish desires. They are more responsible for monster’s actions than monsters casue they are the one who groomed them, rebuild their mindset.

That was also the subject of the Frankeinstein story. The monster may have killed a lot of people, but who created the monster? How does the monster become guilty when there are people who can teach him the truth, but don't choose to teach it, while the monster doesn't know what it's doing is right and wrong? However, he was not taught better. So how can he choice better, if he hasnt taught better? HE CANT.

As many as people want, may think Shigaraki is making a choice right now and that he's a bad guy, but in those circumstances, it was impossible for Shigaraki to choose a better option.

What do you expect to happen when you close someone in a room for years, stop him from talking to people and subject him to constant violence?

Do you think that person will not react to this violence?

Do you expect that person to behave like human while that person lives away from all kinds of human conditions?

Under these conditions, it is nonsense to expect better than Shigaraki.

In other words,

murder is apparently worse than violence, but an adult like Endeavor, who chooses exactly what he is doing without caring about the harm to other people, is fully responsible for what he does. Shigaraki, on the other hand, cannot really be held responsible for what she did, as it is impossible to act otherwise under these conditions.

So i understand that people are upset with death of people which is normal, those people who were killed by Shigaraki didnt deserve it at all but people need to understand that Shigaraki didnt have better choice, path than this. People say “this doesnt justify” cause they are scared of that the person will get away from what he did but point here is he doesnt get away from anything, he is victim whose all choices and humanity taking away from him so treating this victim as villain who just should defeated is NOT justice. If people want to blame someone, they should blame the people who are TRULY responsible for this, not the victim whose humanity stolen from him. Thats the point here.

By the way, not everyone has to be like Shigaraki. Shigaraki is already a character designed to be the ultimate victim. The reason it parallels with Deku is not because they are both heirs, but because they are both essentially the same kind child. But not everyone could be this kind, they could react worse and they might not have adapted to change that much. Shigaraki is just a tragic example of even you are the kindest person in the world, in terrible conditions, you would be just like Shigaraki or probably worse. He is a tragedy character, symbolize the victimhood that shows untentionally with most unpleasant ways. (Toga, Dabi, Shigaraki etc they all symbolize effects of violence though, they are not choosing a decision but actually just reacting the violence they endured, thats all, maybe i can make analysis about it later.)

Redemption is not about deserving or not. It's about wanting to be a better person but facing your creations or not. And if a villain receives redemption, it already shows that he has this potential from the very beginning, potential to be a good person, actually he was not as bad as that was thought, that is. Well at least, well-written redemptions work like this. In other words, villains such as Joker or Ujiko that will not receive redemption have nothing to admire. Choosing to be a villain until the end of your life is not something to be proud of, it is something to be ashamed of, because this is proof that you don't want to improve yourself.

I was just gonna say “i agreed” and make it short but i guess, i am kinda bored and this post became my rant, lol. Thank you anon btw.

#endeavour #shigaraki tomura #child abuse #abuse #bnha abuse #shimura tenko #mha redemption #anon

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tumblunni · 7 years

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OH MAN GEEZ IM FUCKIN EMOTIONAL ALREADY black butler: book of circus spoilers below:

oh god, the ways they expanded the story for the anime are SO FUCKIN SAD I kinda like that they made it so you actually do see the circus crew kidnapping children this time. I mean, I dont think its made to make them any less sympathetic, but it definately reminds you that the playing field is even here and they’re morally complicated rather than just poor innocent victims of mr evil protagonist. Also its REALLY GORY and REALLY PSYCHOLOGICAL HORROR

Its so messed up, seriously These poor kids are being sent to kidnap other kids, by a creepy asshole murder pedophile fuck. And they dont know WHY theyre kidnapping kids, they don’t know what happens to the ones they hand over. And they’re all JUST FUCKING KIDS, they’re fucking children who’re all heavily disabled in different ways and LITERALLY owe their life to this horrible villain man. And they dont know why they were saved and why these other kids are.. going.. somewhere else. And they really dont know whether to trust their ‘father’, but its pretty clear they all have their suspicions that the kidnapped kids might be dying. But they dont have anywhere else to go if they disobey their father, and he’s fucking with their heads so they all feel like they’re the only onw with doubts and they cant even question it or everyone will turn on them and they’ll get kicked out on the street again and never see any of their siblings. And they all VERY MUCH know what its like to be dying on the streets. And this time they’d had a chance to know what its like to have prosthetic limbs and medical help and be able to eat three solid meals a day and wear pretty clothes and have a family. Having all that taken away will hurt even more than if they’d never known what it’s like..

So I sympathise with them, I really do. And I really believe they could have been rescued, and could have been redeemed, and ultimately we shouldnt be blaming them for what they did, only blaming the man who forced them into it and gave enough illusion of choice that they were able to feel guilt about it... BUT STILL that was REALLY FUCKED UP AND DISTURBING AND SAD AND DISTURBING AND SAD

seriously they PUT ON A FINAL CIRCUS SHOW for every single kid they kidnap part of it is about luring them in so they trust them, but also it seems they take it way too far for it to just be that. They almost got caught because they spent so much time doing their performance for this poor lil matchstick seller girl! and its equal parts heartwarming and DISGUSTING because this poor kid is like.. I dont even know if they drug their victims or if she was just going insane from having to see them killing the policeman that tried to save her they’re just horribly gorily fighting the policemen, stabbing a fucking knife through some guy’s eye, and the kid is sitting there having a complete mental collapse, laughing as if this is all part of the show. And we get this twisted vision of her point of view, seeing the nice clown man doing a funny show smacking mr teddy bear with a mallet, as the dead body of the policeman falls at her feet. And then they bundle her into the carriage and thats just the end. We dont find out what happens to the kidnapped kids, any more than the kidnappers know... We just got to learn so much about this poor kid, and that poor policeman, and have a bunch of heartwarming moments of them becoming friends, and then she just turns the corner for like five minutes and the policeman is like ‘wtf is that flute music’ then sees a fuckin ENTIRE CIRCUS IN AN ALLEYWAY and gets stabbed through the goddamn eye trying to reach the kid in time. And she’s so out of it that she couldnt even see him. His last thoughts were probably seeing her glassy eyes staring right through him... And we know that he had a daughter that this street urchin reminded him of, and we know she had a sick little brother who really needed the money the policeman gave her, and an abusive mother that’ll probably be forcing that poor brother to go out panhandling now her daughter is gone.. And just... GAHH my fucking emotions my sadness and also A LOT OF FEAR so much blood

and I KNOW HOW IT ENDS i know that the kids don’t fuckin go to a happy place with a nice new dad and ‘father’ only spared those few kids so they could be pawns he could manipulate into capturing more kids, and test subjects for his evil science team’s freaky bullshit and they dont even KNOW that they’re test subjects! they dont know that their prosthetic limbs are MADE FROM THE OTHER KIDNAPPED KIDS WHO NEVER CAME BACK god, im already imagining how they’d fuckin animate the poor ringleader guy throwing up as he realizes his arm is made from someone else’s bones and then he just DIES they all just die horribly in service of this disgusting fucking child murderer pedophile that they thought was their father half of them never learn that they were the villains all along, the other half get to know it just in time to despair utterly as they’re killed off too

and evil bastard’s trump card that kept them all obeying him it DIDNT EXIST he fucking held it over their heads that their other siblings were still out there somewhere, at his ‘orphanage’, and they had to work with him so he could send money back to them so they could all be happy too when really he’d killed them long ago, and for all we know they could be the ones that joker’s prosthetic arm was made from T_T and ciel’s fuckin only chance to do something to help the people he completely failed who all died hating him and thinking he’d betrayed them, that they were the good guys and he was the villain... that last chance was a fucking lie he tried to save the ‘other kids’ and the fucking ‘orphanage’ was an empty abandoned building full of nothing but maybe a stray doll they left behind before they were all horribly murdered so we just end on our protagonist being the absolute villain of this arc, and the actual villains being sympathetic kids, and him laughing like a madman as his last chance of redemption blows away on the wind

oh, and he fuckin personally murdered a bunch of kids too, even though he didnt kill all his villain friends with his own hand. he found some of the kids in the lab that were test experiments, the few who hadnt been killed yet. the few who’d had to watch potentially HUNDREDS of friends be dragged kicking and screaming to that operating table, and see every second of them being eviscerated into pieces. And ciel just sees himself in them, they’re all so catatonic that they cant even see him and all he can see is himself and he knows from personal experience that a kid can come back from that, but he knows how much of a monster he’s become and he thinks the kids would be happier if they could die as they are instead of losing themself so he just sets the whole building on fire and i end up crying for him even as he’s committing a horrible act! fucking moral ambiguity: the show

and god, even this episode’s goofy friendship fun parts were horrifying too! it starts off with the whole ‘ha ha ciel doesnt know this kid is Doll, cos she ~looks like a boy~ when she’s not in costume’ random stupidness but its still cute cos she’s being so kind to the newbie, and you can learn a lot about her character from it how she’s trying to be all smiley and goofy and giving him candy and saying how she’d never even tasted it before, and now he can stay here and be her lil brother and never get hit by anyone and never go hungry and she knows the goddamn price she has to pay for all this, and she wants to keep ciel innocent of it she doesnt know he’s already just as corrupted, and he’s really a spy sent to take them down and then just DEAR GOD THAT SCENE THAT IS NOT OKAY but it was absolutely fucking necessary I think, to keep the moral ambiguity and not make us just hate ciel forever she fuckin.. accidentally triggers a ptsd flashback in the poor kid he’s never been homeless before so he doesnt realise its a group bathroom, and then freaks out and tries to run. but she’s just teasing him as part of her cool big sis persona, and doesnt realise he has an actual reason to be scared. So they end up fighting and she accidentally reveals the scar on his back to everyone the fucking brand that was burned into him when he was kidnapped and enslaved and the episode just ends with our usually unflappable protagonist curled up in a ball under a towel, shaking and crying and his only comfort is the demonic butler he’s using to enact his revenge, and all he says is just ‘you’re better than this, you’re a badass’ ciel never really has any form of actual sympathy, does he? the only person who knows about what happened to him is this morally ambiguous monster minion guy. and the whole hook of the series is that we never really know if Sebastian actually gives a shit about ciel or any of the other humans, or if he’s just waiting for the poor kid to fuck up and leave an opportunity to devour his soul. I wanna believe that Sebastian does have some sort of fatherly affection for ciel, or at least they both care about each other in a sort of.. mutually evil way. But even if thats true, its not like sebastian is gonna really be any good to talk to in a time like this. he;s just gonna sass ciel for showing weakness. he just has this fuckin motivational speech of ‘yo ciel youre a fuckin evil bastard, remember? get up and continue your evil bastard ways’. and somehow it actually kinda works and actually kinda feels affectionate in context :P BUT STILL SERIOUSLY POOR CIEL he could have turned out a lot better than this if he had someone in his life who could actually give him a goddamn hug but I guess thats not really what he wanted, even though its what he needed instead he wished for the power to enact revenge on the one who killed his family and enslaved him and he set off on this long horrible path of becoming an evil bastard to track down this other evil bastard when he’s only fuckin ELEVEN and he’s happy to throw away his soul, and doesnt care if sebastian betrays him in the end and he burns in hell forever, as long as he can stop that evil bastard from doing the same thing to more children and this arc is so fucked up cos he failed so horribly to stop some OTHER evil bastard from doing the same thing to more children and he’s become so twisted and antiheroey and cynical that he missed his chances to redeem those poor other twisted kids, and maybe he could have done better in stopping the real villain if he had.. and the only fuckin thing we got out of this arc was that the bastard kidnapping these children was a copycat criminal of the one who did it to ciel, so we at least finally have one clue that might lead to a resolution someday but EVERYONE DIED and ciel’s even more fucking traumatized! and he’s jumped off the deep end and become full antihero evil bastard and all the character development he had during the arc has been negated and fuckin completely reversed cos of how it ended and he lost a bazillion friends and he was betraying them the entire time, and they died resenting him, or resenting him AND learning that he was right and they’d been working for the villain all along, and then he couldnt even save their other siblings cos they were long dead and just THIS FUCKING ARC IS SO FUCKED UP GAHHHHH

I guess sometimes you just wanna watch depressing cinema, yknow? I do hope that someday this series actually ends with at least a bittersweet ending, not an equally fatalistic one that means everything was all for nothing. i want the poor circus kids’s deaths to actually mean something...

Also, randomly and incidentally, I want the giant creepy pedo incesty shipping fandom to die in a fire. Before I even started watching it, Black Butler was famous as ‘that pedo anime’, everyone acted as if Sebastian x Ciel was canon and they kept teasing it in every episode or something. BUT NOPE. NONE. NICHT. NON. NAG YDW. Where the FUCK did they even get it from, seriously?? We don’t know if Sebastian is gonna betray ciel or not in the end, but im PRETTY FUCKING SURE that he doesn’t have a boner for a fucking ten year old! I know the idea of a demon servant is a common romance novel thing, but seriously wtf is wrong with you... I know I’m mad that this arc ended so horribly, but still I feel like the various moral ambiguity discussions are super interesting and I would have regretted if I’d never read any of this manga just because of some awful fanbase members.

ANYWAY IN SUMMARY bunni cry over episode

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