#alg mandarin

[rigelmejo]

Updated 6/8/2025 - List of Comprehensible Input Chinese Resources:

Comprehensible Input Wiki - this wiki includes tons of Comprehensible Input Lessons linked for many languages. I go back to this regularly. Go to the Chinese sections for Chinese.

Vidioma.com - a person made this site to make it easy and convienient for people learning Chinese to find CI Lessons for their level of understanding. I think they were trying to make something similar to Dreaming Spanish's site to help encourage learners to start/continue by making it easy and in one place. Time watched is tracked on the local device you're using it on, there's no account sign up, and the website makes no money - it links youtube videos of youtubers that teach Chinese.

r/ALGMandarin Wiki - includes playlists made by learners of the content, sorted for beginners.

r/ALGhub Aural Resources List - includes comprehensible input lessons and learner podcasts for many languages, go to Chinese - Mandarin section.

Lazychinese.com - Su Qing made this website, her youtube channel is Lazy Chinese. Like Dreaming Spanish, it is Comprehensible Input Lessons on a website where paying a subscription will unlock more lessons. This website is still growing, the payment goes directly to Lazy Chinese and the teachers making the lessons. (As it is still growing, I recommend also checking out each teacher's youtube channels too, for example I love Xiaogua Chinese channel).

r/ALGhub What Is Automatic Language Growth? - page that explains ALG if you want to to it. (My quick summary is ALG is using only comprehensible input lessons that contain ONLY the target language, until you can use materials for native speakers, avoiding thinking about the language such as anaylzing/translating in your head/using translations and explanations, and waiting to speak and read until you feel you have a good grasp of listening skills. So 600-2000 hours depending on the language, ALG Thai courses typically recommend waiting 1000-2000 hours, Dreaming Spanish typically recommends waiting 600-1000 hours. Note: ALG is stricter than Krashen's input hypothesis that "we acquire language by having meaningful experiences we understand in the language" and therefore CI is not a synonym for ALG. ALG is comprehensible input, but comprehensible input is a much BROADER category than ALG. ALG was invented by Marvin Brown, who felt it is ONLY comprehensible experiences in the language we acquire language from, and nothing else is necessary or beneficial. Brown felt the other activities were detrimental to success. Brown also felt speaking early, or any explicit study and analysis of ANY language would damage ultimate ability in languages. This is the controversial point - as many other teaching programs that include Comprehensible Input Lessons still feel there's a place for grammar study and translations and explanations. Most learning programs for learning a language, do not worry that explicit study will damage their ultimate result, and do not care when one begins to read or speak).

Dreaming Spanish Method - includes the roadmap I'm often referencing, Dreaming Spanish Method is the ALG method, just a bit more lax. Dreaming Spanish also says to avoid explanations and translations, but to look you at them if curious then it won't hurt. Dreaming Spanish says you should wait to read and speak 600-1000 hours, but if you need to do it earlier then do, or if you will give up unless you do them early then just do them. (This is basically why I prefer going to r/dreamingspanish, their more lax approach to the ALG method means I can find more learners who are using Comprehensible Input Lessons alongside other study activities or study history, which is more compatible with my own experiences).

*personal note: think ALG's ideas are a bit extreme. I do not think explicit study, translations, speaking early, or reading early will create an insurmountable block for most people's language goals. I am not doing pure ALG. If you feel like doing pure ALG though, it will work. There's plentiful examples on r/dreamingspanish of people doing pure ALG to successfully reach B2 level, and people doing additional things that contradict ALG and successfully reaching B2 level. Dreaming Spanish's method and roadmap are a slightly more lax approach to ALG if you'd like to try it out without completely following the ALG rules, and you can find many people to connect with who also did ALG somewhat but not purist in that learning community.

My recommendations are: no matter who you are, the linked resources above are ALL useful for Practicing Extensive Listening. You'll need to practice listening to improve your listening skills, and many of these resources will have easier options for beginners and intermediate learners to practice with. These linked resources also are great ways to learn words/grammar in visual context with no translations, and learning more is always useful. If you enjoy learning from context, you may find these resources suit how you like to learn. So I think anyone studying could find these useful.

[dicky-karma]

ALG Mandarin Online營運超過一年，有許多老師無償、無私地貢獻他們的時間和腦力。三月中旬，Mario就要去當兵了，國家更需要他，ALG就就要少一個生力軍。最後一堂課，所有學生都上線來給Mario踐行。天意、榮恆、惠心師父、樂福、當輝，全員不逃殺，通通現身嚕～ https://www.instagram.com/p/CpRFm1DPrvJ/?igshid=NGJjMDIxMWI=

[frumusetesisanatate]

Prepara masti cosmetice la tine acasa!

In tratamentul cosmetic pe care ni-l facem singure sau la un atelier cosmetic, se include si masca ce trebuie sa fie aplicata pe obraz si pe gat. Mastile pot fi: minerale, vegetale, biologice. Ele se aplica pe obraz, dupa ce acesta a fost in prealabil curatit, inmuiat prin baia de aburi de plante, astfel incit punctele negre pot fi scoase cu usurinta, prin apasare cu un tifon steril, cu cele doua degete aratatoare. Se maseaza apoi obrazul cu miscari si ingrediente potrivite tenului: normal, gras, uscat, mixt.

1)Mastile minerale

Mastile minerale sunt alcatuite din prafuri anorganice ca: talc, oxid de zinc, oxid de titan, carbonat de calciu, carbonat de magneziu, caolin, sulf. Acestea sint bune pentru tenurile grase si acneice, cu porii deschisi, mai ales in perioada de crestere — adolescenta — cind survin derajamente cutanate de ordin endocrin. Exista totusi persoane care au aceste manifestari pina aproape de 30 de ani, mostenind unele deficiente glandulare.

2)Mastile vegetale

Mastile vegetale sunt din plante ca: spanac, urzici, praz (pentru tenurile acneice). Ele au o infatisare gelatinoasa, fiind in combinatie cu amidon de orez, celuloza, albumine.

3)Mastile de fructe

Mastile de fructe se fac din toate combinatiile de fructe carnoase: cirese, caise, capsune, fragi, zmeura, pepene verde, pepene galben, banane, piersici, portocale, mandarine etc. Se spala bine fructele (fragi, capsnne, caise, pepene galben si verde, piersici,' cirese etc.) Se zdrobesc si se aplica direct pe obraz (20 minute).'Se spala obrazul cu apa minerala.

4)Mastile biologice

Mastile biologice sunt sub forma de crema sau de gel si contin substante care activeaza procesul de vitalizare al celulelor. Contin hormoni, vitamina E si vitamina A, propolis, laptisor de matca, alge, namol, extract de castraveti, colagen, miere de albine, gin-seng, gerovital etc.

5)Masti pentru ten uscat

1 galbenus de ou, un virf de cutit dc miere de albine, 1 lingurita de brinza de vaca. 1 lingurita de miere de albine se mesteca repede cu putina drojdie de berc (cit o nuca). Se unge obrazul cu untura de peste, se maseaza bine, apoi se ap’ica o masca de parafina solida, topita si racita cit sa o poata suporta pielea. Dupa 20 de minute se indeparteaza si se aplica o compresie calda de infuzie de plante (musetel, rozmarin, sal- vie, petale de trandafiri, menta). Se repeta ungerea obrazului si se aplica din nou o compresa calda. Se pot combina doua din plantele amintite. Untura de peste, desi are un miros specific, neplacut, contine vitaminele A si B, si ajuta la regenerarea celulelor epidermei, improspatind tenul si hranindu-1. Se poate inlocui, daca nu dispunem de ea, cu ulei de masline caldut. E o masca ideala pentru refacerea tenului dupa ce a fost expus, la mare, la soarele prea puternic.

6)Masca, pentru un ten ridat si obosit

Se prepara dintr-o laptuca oparita, frecata cu o lingura de lapte si o lingurita de ulei de masline. Se tine pe obraz 30 minute, dupa care se aplica comprese cu infuzie de musetel.

7)Masti pentru tenul gras si acneic

Se aplica pe obraz o masca de tifon imbibata cu iaurt (este buna si pentru pielea arsa de soare). Un morcov ras se amesteca cu o lingurita de zeama de lamiie; se aplica pe obraz si dupa 20 de minute se tamponeaza obrazul cu urmatoarea solutie: o lingura de cimbru se opareste cu 2 linguri de apa clocotita si se strecoara. Ridichi rase, se storc si cu zeama lor se spala obrazul, tinindu-se 10 minute nesters. Citeva bucati de praz se oparesc si se aplica caldute direct pe obraz. Deasupra se asaza un tifon, ca o masca, spre a nu cadea prazul. Se tin 25 minute, apoi se spala cu musetel. Prazul si ridichile contin sulf si combat cosurile.

8)Masca pentru combaterea cosurilor

O ridiche neagra se rade si se stoarce printr-un tifon. Ceea ce ramine se incalzeste si se faramiteaza ca un piure. Se aplica caldut pe obraz, timp de 20 minute. Se spala obrazul cu zeama de ridichi, timp de 10 minute tinind obrazul ud. Se spala cu apa in care s-a dizolvat bicarbonat (o lingura).

9)Masca contra urticariei

2 g salicilat de sodiu si 2 g bicarbonat se dizolva in 250 ml apa fiarta si racita',  tamponeaza pielea din cand in cand, in timpul zilei si seara.

10)Masca pentru indepartarea cojilor de pe obraz

Se bate un albus spuma si se adauga 2 linguri de malai. Se freaca intii usor obrazul cu aceasta pasta, apoi se aplica pe obraz, timp de 20 de minute. Se spala la sfirsit obrazul cu ceai de musetel caldut si se unge usor cu o crema hidratanta neutra sau cu lapte demachiant pentru ten gras.

11)Masti-lotiuni pentru un ten pistruiat

1/4 1 apa fiarta si racita se amesteca cu 15 picaturi de tinctura de benzoe. 1/4 1 lapte se fierbe cu 100 g hrean. Se strecoara si se aplica pe obraz Insa, daca nu ai posibilitatea, timpul sau rabdarea necesara pentru a prepara la tine acasa iti recomand: SET DE INGRIJIRE AGE REVERSIST

Setul conține: Gel exfoliant 80ml Serum 30ml Loțiune hidratantă 30ml Cremă de ochi 15ml Click pentru reducere   Masca de fata cu galbenele

Descriere Produs O mască intens hidratantă infuzată cu Gălbenele, pentru pielea uscată și deteriorată, care ajută la calmarea și hidratarea chiar și celui mai sensibil ten. Dr. C. Tuna Mască de Față tip Șervețel cu Gălbenele este potrivită în special pielii Sensibile, Uscate și Foarte Uscate. Instrucţiuni De Utilizare Înlătură ambalajul și deschide masca. Aplică masca pe pielea curată și uscată. Lasă masca să acționeze pentru 10-15 minute. Înlătură masca de pe ten și masează ușor în piele excesul de produs. Click pentru reducere Read the full article

[thegracecoffey]

Peru

Its been a fast-paced month.  I arrived in Peru at 3 in the morning on a night bus, and my first hour was a very grumpy one, waiting in line to get my passport stamped.  Since then however, things have been very fast paced, over the past month I´ve traveled from the very north of Peru to the very south, and will be heading to Chile in a couple of days.  I will have taken 5 overnight buses this month, a fact I am strangely proud of.  The buses are really okay, if it wasn't for the mandatory showing of what are usually awful and violent movies.

Its been an exciting trip,with little planned other than to head south. My first impressions of the dry and littered desert in the north was that it rather looked like Tatooine. A Tatooine with an unusual number of old bug cars.  I spent my first week in the small surfing town of Huanchaco, which is a very chill surfing paradise, so what did I do there but learn to surf?  It was thrilling, and I could have easily stayed there for three years+ and become a surf bum, but before that idea became too tempting I returned to the cool mountains.

Huaraz is a city in the mountains known for its trekking, I loved it.  It wasn´t too touristy, and there were amazing hikes  to be had in all directions.  It was also my first experience with Peruvian markets, and I could have died from happiness. Sauces!  Spices!  Ceviche! More than one kind of cheese! Its thrilling to eat new and diverse things, and just the food alone here has made me fall in love with this country. There is also a large indigenous population in Huaraz, and their colorful woven clothing makes street life very beautiful.   Markets are wonderful, colorful places that are the heart of South American cities. In every city I visit, I go to the market to find new vegetables, fruits, and food, chat with vendors, and generally get a feel for the city.

After a thankfully brief stop in Lima I came to Cuzco, gorgeous and extremely touristy, its the stop-off for Machu Picchu.  Its rather funny, all of the "artesianal”” markets sell the same things, so all of the tourists are wearing the same cheap “alpaca” sweaters and woven backpacks, not that I´m any exception.  Also, strangely, I see more locals wearing north face brand things than I do in the Pacific Northwest.

I only stayed in Cuzco for a couple of days, because I took a trip to visit farmer friends of a former ALG recipient, Lily. They had a cacao and everything farm in the mountains north of Cuzco.  I was given the warmest welcome from this wonderful family who are dedicated to growing food and cacao organically and ecologically and also do reforestation work.  The few short days I had there were beautiful, I had hot chocolate from their cacao every morning, helped with the cacao harvest, and got to go through the entire chocolate making process. I shall outline it very briefly.

Harvest cacao. (Involving scaling huge trees with a curved knife on a stick)

Break it open and scrape out the fruit.  Eat plenty because the fruit is delicious.

Ferment bean inside fruit for four days.

Lay it out to dry for two days.

Sort by size for an even roast.

Roast beans for about 10 minutes or so, until they pop and are roasted through.

Take off the husks.

Grind the chocolate.

There you go! Pure chocolate.  Its extraordinarily similar to the coffee process.

On their farm they also grow coffee, plantain, peanuts, corn, mango, mandarins, lemons, and many, many other things. The cacao variety they grow is the old, traditional variety, non-hybridized. It gets smaller yields but is much more aromatic and delicious.  The care for their soil and plants is very evident and inspiring, and I plan on returning to their farm for a longer period of time when I return to Peru in April.

The past week I have been volunteering on the outskirts of Arequipa, the second largest city in Peru.  I have been helping construct a garden for educational purposes, which has mainly been digging and moving soil. There are a bunch of other travelers working, strangely a lot of French.  Its been nice, but I´m looking forward to traveling to Chile, where I will meet up with my friend Max to travel for a few weeks.  In March two of my sisters will be visiting, which will also be lovely.  

I love South America, I love the bustle, the color, and how sincere people are.  I love how there is someone selling popcorn on the street whenever you really need it. I love how many plazas and small parks there are everywhere.  I love how much human interaction there is, stuffed on busses, the vendors always yelling out about their wares.  I love the disorder and happy chaos and how chill people are about everything. I love tuk tuks, informality, bartering, the same bad music in all of the buses and restaurants, the mountains, the strength of family, how many selfies people take, the street dogs everywhere.

[rigelmejo]

Like... I think Automatic Language Growth is a successful route to learn a language and achieve one's goals (if they can enjoy doing it and stick with it)

I just do not think it's the only successful route.

I think all of the things ALG says not to do, are to explain why some learners end up with fossilized mistakes or imperfect language use when compared to native speakers. Most adults will have already done something ALG says not to do, so the ALG theory expects these imperfect results for those people. ALG expects imperfect results for most learners, even if once they discover ALG they stick strictly to it. I do not think the imperfect end result is a concern for most learners, it will not prevent them from reaching B2 or C1 in a language, it will not prevent them from reaching the goals they have. Therefore, I don't think there's a compelling reason to stick to ALG's rules.

At the most, ALG done "wrong" (breaking ALG rules) will just result in mentally translating more, less fluid ability to respond under pressure when speaking, and more concious thought when passively understanding or actively trying to produce language. Which, to a degree, will be minimized with more practice understanding the language. These results would not prevent anyone from eventually learning to listen, read, speak, and write in a language. It just means they may have less fluidity and more mental effort. But it will depend on the person "how much" those drawbacks matter, how much the drawbacks will even be present in a given individual, and if they matter at all.

I think if ALG's specific rules, as recommendations, end up being useful for someone then they can be adopted for that person.

If ALG specific rules end up being a detriment to someone getting motivated to study, enjoying the process, or actively causing issues then those rules should be ignored for that person.

Aka do what works for you, leave the rest.

[rigelmejo]

I want to rant for a moment. Which if you're following me, I hope you are used to this lol.

This is for the people using comprehensible input to learn Chinese:

Pinyin IS NOT ENGLISH. IT IS NOT ENGLISH TRANSCRIPTION. IT HAS IT'S OWN PRONUNCIATION AND DOES NOT MATCH ENGLISH LETTERS PRONUNCIATION. (Chinese is not pronounced like English, the sounds in pinyin do not match English sounds any more than French letters/pronounciation match the sounds of English - which if you don't know, NO French is not pronounced like English). This is a pronunciation guide for how pinyin sounds and is pronounced.

Pinyin is used in Chinese elementary schools. Pinyin is learned by native speakers, and used to type on phones and computers. Or Zhuyin is learned in elementary schools in Taiwan, and used to type on phones and computers. This is a zhuyin pronunciation guide for how zhuyin sounds and is pronounced.

If you are trying to do a pure Automatic Language Growth approach to studying, pinyin is just a transcription system used for Chinese! It is okay to start reading pinyin whenever you start reading hanzi. It is NOT English translation, or English 'estimation' of pronunciation. (Not any more than the French alphabet or German alphabet is 'English' - and be so for real, I know you know German alphabet isn't pronounced like English so stop pretending Chinese pinyin is pronounced like English). Native speakers see pinyin when they're in school. In some educational materials for native speakers, you'll run into pinyin! You don't need to avoid pinyin once you have gotten to the point in ALG where you're okay with yourself reading hanzi! Once you have acquired enough language to start reading, pinyin and zhuyin are just as 'normal' for native speakers learning to read as hanzi is. You will ultimately NEED to learn pinyin or zhuyin to type.

I am not saying to read Everything with pinyin above the hanzi, once you start reading. By all means skip the pinyin as soon as you are able when reading things. Hanzi is what books are written in, and websites, and you'll need to develop the skill to read hanzi ASAP. You'll want to LOOK at pinyin when learning new words/hanzi, as you'll need to learn how to type it and what sounds match up to the pinyin, or zhuyin, writing system. So learning material like Lazy Chinese's videos that include pinyin? Useful for teaching you how the pinyin matches to sounds, and how to type the new hanzi she teaches you in each lesson.

Pinyin is just an estimate of pronunciation, just like spelling in any language (English spelling is not a perfect guide for how to pronounce English words, French spelling is not a perfect guide for how to pronounce French words, and Chinese pinyin is not a perfect guide for how to pronounce Chinese, like Japanese hiragana is just an estimation - it doesn't capture some sounds in spoken Japanese). You should listen to how actual people are pronouncing words over what pinyin says (for example, some people will say pinyin 'ng' as 'n', or 'shi' as 'si', or 'r' as 'l'). You'll still need to learn pinyin/zhuyin to type and write things digitally.

This post is because I see so many people studying Chinese through comprehensible input, thinking they need to desperately avoid pinyin. I'm sick of it. Pinyin or zhuyin are going to be NECESSARY at some point if you want to know how to type anything!

And unlike English, and French, Chinese language IS very phonetically similar to pinyin's estimates of pronunciation. (For example in English letter 'a' is not ONLY pronounced like 'cat' sometimes it's like 'ate', versus Chinese initials and finals which are quite consistent 'shi' is generally always pronounced the same as any other 'shi' if we're talking Standard Mandarin and not regional accents). If you can learn pinyin or zhuyin, you can type so many words just by hearing them! It took some practice to hear Chinese sounds correctly (obviously) but I can type most every word I have learned in Chinese in pinyin and then select the hanzi I want, just because I've heard the words. I sure couldn't fucking say that about English or French, the way words sound in English or French might not match the spelling much at all.

I'm just... really sick of the misunderstanding that pinyin is a tool for language learners, and no native speakers use pinyin. Native speakers use pinyin or zhuyin, if they're young enough to be using phones and computers. Some native speaker children use pinyin for a little while.

Native speakers also use hanzi to read in all media, and to write on paper, so learn hanzi obviously. You'll need hanzi. Don't try to avoid hanzi.

Hanzi are often phonetic, so knowing pinyin 'qing' for some hanzi with 青 in it, will help you realize how to read, look up, and type: 情 晴 清 蜻 请 青 箐 請 鯖 . Now again, like English, don't assume pronunciation is exactly like the Chinese pinyin, listen to the actual words pronounced. But it sure is a nice regular spelling for typing to pick up and learn.

As someone who learned to read, I do think it's fine and good to move right to reading hanzi directly, or hanzi while listening to matching audio, as soon as possible. You'll need to develop the skill of reading hanzi. Pinyin spelling is fairly regular, and once you get the sense of pinyin's spelling/pronunciation, you'll be able to type most hanzi in pinyin just by hearing the word's pronunciation. You can skip textbooks made for foreigners that use only pinyin for tons of pages (or whole volumes - I hate these textbooks). You can get textbooks that include hanzi from day one (probably with pinyin or zhuyin provided for brand new hanzi so you can sound out the hanzi if you don't have provided audio).

My point is: Don't avoid pinyin just because you're trying to 'learn Chinese in only Chinese.'

I mean, unless you want, in which case sure fuck yourself over and come back in 5 years and let us know how not being able to text or find anything online is going. I'm all for people doing whatever they want. It's your life. Maybe it will go so well, and you'll be able to come back and insist to learners everywhere and native speakers to stop learning pinyin as one learns to read hanzi. Maybe you'll have some awesome benefit to show us, that is acquired by avoiding pinyin. Maybe you come up with a new writing system that's more accurate and easier to write, like the Korean hangul writing system, and it replaces pinyin, zhuyin, and hanzi worldwide.

[rigelmejo]

I'm looking for anyone sharing their experiences learning Chinese using comprehensible input and how many hours, what their progress was, what they learned to understand and say etc.

There was a guy Kevin who watched 2000 hours of cdramas, and before that did FSI Chinese and simple podcasts and... frankly he did not have much success. His comprehension after 2000 hours is worse than mine (after at most ~1000 hours study or reading, ~700 hours comprehensible input if we count shows I watched and more comprehensible stuff). His comprehension and speaking is worse than most people I've talked to and learners I've seen who are intermediate... maybe he's just not paying attention? That's all I can think. Like that he was maybe literally tuning out verbally what was being said and mostly only paying attention to visuals. Sort of like how when English speakers watch a show with english subtitles they just tune out most of the verbal language. Maybe he just tuned out the verbal language a lot of the time? Because his results were really bad... and then he moved blogs, and the newer blog doesn't exist. Despite the fact he did use FSI Chinese, took a beginner class, and watched Peppa Pig, so he should have had somewhat of a base to understand daily life modern cdramas and everyday language in everyday scenes... I would've expected some improvement in that area of understanding at a decent rate. Maybe he only watched old palace dramas??? Anyway I can't find his new blog as existing. So I can't determine if he ever had success... also the guy did not prioritize "comprehensible" input... he said at first he understood like 5% and just kept watching... (and again! Based on his beginner chinese knowledge from prior sources he should have understood at least 25% of a modern romance daily life drama! Unless he was only using dramas not set in the present???)

Truly I do not know how a person can make so little progress unless they're tuning out. Any traditional study learner I've seen has made more progress, any traditional study as a beginner (with the amount of experience he had) who then switched to reading and watching cdramas (and looking up words once in a while) made more progress! Progress I expected him to be able to make. (Any Refold japanese learner who only did anki for the basics, then immersed a lot, pretty much did what he did as they also had basics beforehand, and there's multiple successful Refold learners who rarely used anki past the beginner stage and rarely looked up words...)

The only other people I've seen use comprehensible input... one is on r/dreaminglanguages and he's only done 150 hours so far, that hes given an update on. He's making good progress though! Very similar progress to thai AUA and ALG students. But I'm now farther than him so I am on a road untravelled wishing to compare what I'm doing to someone who's already done it.

Pablo from Dreaming Spanish is studying Mandarin with comprehensible input. I found this video he shared. But I don't know spanish. So Im holding onto cognates with french and english and seeing how well his progress is going:

I'm trying to figure out how many hours hes studied so far, and what progress he's made in terms of things he can understand.

Anyway please send me links if you know of anyone who got farther!

[rigelmejo]

Okay I've been playing with the Mandarin From Scratch blog post's ALG language acquisition equation, from a paper by Marvin Brown about ALG.

y = C(1-e^(-kx/L))

Below the cut, a bunch of me messing with the ALG equation and comparing it with Dreaming Spanish estimates to try and figure out WHAT is an accurate estimate of time it will take to learn a language with comprehensible input.

Y is understanding/fluency, which their goal is to get to 88%. I wanted to look at how many hours it would take me to reach 88%, then something over 90%, then something approaching my estimated "ceiling". Average ceilings were 95% - after which point students struggled to improve further. So I set mine as 0.95.

(Note: they say their goal for students is to reach 88% fluency/understanding, but I am not sure if that's B2, or lower, or higher. My goal is around upper intermediate/B2 so that's kind of fucking important for me to know... I want to be able to read, listen to audio, watch shows, and eventually have conversations about anything on my mind in at least a basic way - which would be B2 conversationally and possibly higher comprehension for passive skills)

C is the ceiling.

y is how much language they know (1 = native). If you have a ceiling, then y would never surpass the ceiling.

x is how many hours they have understood.

k is the acquisition constant: .0018

e is the natural logarithm base: 2.718

I plugged in a few potential amounts of hours I could study:

It looks like if I aim for 1500 hours, I'll hit 88% fluency. This seems a bit low for my goals, considering thats only 600 more hours from where I am. But it sure would be nice if that's all it took.

When I solved for x instead I got ~1448 hours.

If I aim for over 90% comprehension, then it looks like I'll hit that around 2000 hours.

If I solve for x, setting understanding y =0.90, then it would take ~1636 hours

And if I wanted to get as fluent as I possibly could? Which would be around 95%, assuming I have some ceiling like ab average learner, then 2600 hours will get me close to as much as I could hope to be fluent.

If I solve for x and set goal fluency y to 0.94, then it would take ~2530 hours.

This is significantly LESS TIME than FSI estimates - which would be 3520 hours of some form of Chinese study. I do have 1500 hours of prior study if we don't count comprehensible input. So 1500 hours prior study, plus the comprehemsible hours I currently have 913, would total to 2413 hours so far... so with FSI Estimate, I have to get ~1107 more hours of Chinese study (in some form) to reach B2/upper intermediate.

The ALG estimate assumes NO explicit study, and the Ceiling value in fact decreases with significant explicit study. So who fucking knows, maybe my true ceiling would be 88%. Or something.

I do find it interesting that ALG estimates it's going to take me 1448 hours to 2530 hours for "fluency" of 88% to 94%. I suppose wherever I stopped seeing progress, would indicate when I hit my true "ceiling."

These are both lower estimates than Dreaming Spanish gives. Dreaming Spanish predicts for English spealers they'll need 3000 hours of comprehensible input in Chinese to reach B2. Dreaming Spanish, like ALG, assumes the learner is only learning with comprehensible input and no explicit study. So I am curious why Dreaming Spanish's estimate is ~500 hours longer than ALG's.

And if 95% fluency is ONLY B2 that doesn't seem to make sense... Marvin Brown estimated his own fluency at 95% and guessed most people who explicitly study can never improve past 90% - so many C1 learners would be 90% at best, according to Brown. Brown taught Thai, so he had exceptionally good Thai, and he considered himself 95% fluent. So 95% being only B2 would seem... low.

B2 fluency I would consider like... 80-90% maximum. But 1500 hours for an English speaker learning Spanish is only going to get them to B2, based on all the results people have shared (C1 for English speakers learning Spanish through comprehensible input seems to take 2500 hours). And I imagine ALG's equation estimate would say less than 1500 hours for Spanish... hold on I'm going to plug in some more numbers.

Okay ALG estimates the L number, language similarity, to be 0.4 for European languages like English to Spanish. So plugging in the numbers for an English speaker with a average ceiling of 0.95 to achieve as high a fluency as they can (arouns 94%) would take: ~1011 hours

But we know, from all the progress updates people post on reddit.com/r/dreamingspanish, that at around 1000 hours most people are only a B1 level. Maybe B2 in comprehension, but not able to speak at a B2 level for another 500-800 hours (500 more hours of input, and 300 hours of some combination of reading and or speaking practice).

A blog post from ALG World may have answers for us. A Thai learner shared that he studied about 1150 hours at AUA Thai School, and his comprehension was good but he could barely speak, his grade for comprehension was 70% (this is for Thai not Spanish, and so 70% for 1000 hours is pretty average... Thai is expectee to take 1800 hours of comprehensible input to reach 88% comprehension of the language). He said after another 1.5 years living in Thailand, he finally felt he could speak about whatever he wanted, "My speaking ability followed along the same curve of development as my listening had, at a gap of about 800 or 900 hours." So lets give him a total of 1150+900=2050 hours to express himself however, with some writing practice with a tutor as part of those later 900 hours.

So perhaps it took him 2050 hours to reach B2 overall, including speaking skills, which is closer to what I might expect from Dreaming Spanish's results. However, this guy never mentions if his comprehension improved from 70% to something better/higher... and I have to guess 70% isn't B2 in passive comprehension yet. Since he had around 1000 hours as an English speaker learning Thai, and 1000 hours for English Speakers learning Spanish only gets them to B1....

Unless we make the guess that 1000 hours in Dreaming Spanish actually makes listening skills B2, and 1500 makes their listening skills higher than B2. So that assumption would mean 1000 hours of an English speaker learning Spanish through comprehensible input results in passive B2 skills, active A2-B1 skills.

But then... does Thai even take much longer? 1000 hours perhaps got that guy to B1 skills in listening, and A2 skills in speaking, and then his 900 hours later got him to B2 listening skills and B1+ speaking skills? Resulting in more hours needed for Thai, which is what we expect.

Perhaps, making a guess, if he had done 1800 hours as recommended by ALG to achieve 88% fluency, then 900 (or double so 1800 hours) continuing to engage with Thai in his life, so 2700-3600, he would achieve C1 listening skills and B2 speaking skills. Which is closer to what Dreaming Spanish predicts for English speakers learning a language like Thai or Chinese. And perhaps its where Pablo got the estimate of 3000 hours, double the roadmap. He learned Thai through ALG, and that influenced his estimates I'm sure.

I think the real answer is... the ALG formula probably underestimates, or it's percent fluency value needs more work. I think the formula needs to more clearly define what percent fluency values match up to A2, B1, B2, C1. But I know they're not going to care what I think lol ToT

For fun:

Lets calculate using the ALG formula, and Dreaming Spanish values, and figure out what percent fluency actually matches B1 and B2 and C1. Which in Dreaming Spanish is 1000 hours, 1500 hours, and 2500 hours, from users mentioning in progress updates the tests they could pass at different hours of comprensible input.

I'm going to set L to 1 just because it may help me get the percent fluency levels to something more realistic for B1, B2 and C1.

I feel like I'm reverse engineering whatever Pablo did to give his roadmap estimated hours.

Okay so for 1000 hours for Dreaming Spanish, we get a fluency percent of 79%. This seems like a value that might be realistic for B1. B1 is what a DS learner can pass after 1000 hours (although for some people their passive understanding is B2 and their speaking is A2)

For 1500 hours Dreaming Spanish, we get a fluency percent of 89%, which is somewhere in the 80s range, we know 1500-1800 hours for many Dreaming Spanish learners (if they read and speak a bit) is enough to pass a B2 test. (With some people's passive comprehension higher and closer to C1, and some people's speaking closer to B1)

For 2500 hours of Dreaming Spanish, we get a fluency percent of 94%. People pass C1 level around 2500-3000 hours into Spanish comprehensible input.

So for Spanish:

B1 is 1000 hours, is lets say 75-79% fluency

B2 is 1500 hours, is lets say 85-89% fluency

C1 is 2500 hours, is lets say 91-94% fluency

What would it be for a language unlike one you know already? Well fuck. I would need to start messing with the L number. I tried 3 instead of 1, and the hour estimates are way too high.

My guess is that if Pablo used this formula, he used L=2 for languages very unlike ones you know. Because L has to be 2 when I plug in the hour estimates on the roadmap doubled. (Which makes sense lol - double the time, double the L number)

[rigelmejo]

Mandarin Comprehensible Input, how many hours total of youtube lessons, and some other notes:

I found this site https://ytexplore.com/ that lets you find the total hours of video on a youtube channel or playlist, so I went through several Mandarin comprehensible input channels to see how much content they had. I looked through the Comprehensible Input wiki for these channels, and tried to pick channels that had more content and less non-target language used in their videos.

Comprehensible Input Youtube Channels At least some lessons on these channels are suitable for beginners, upper beginners, and intermediate learners.

Lazy Chinese https://www.youtube.com/@comprehensiblechinese Total hours of video: 25.80

Acquire Mandarin https://www.youtube.com/@acquiremandarin Total hours of video: 23.08

Blabla Chinese https://www.youtube.com/@blablachinese7526 Total hours of video: 46.43

Comprehensible Mandarin https://www.youtube.com/@ComprehensibleMandarin Total hours of video: 181.10

ALG Mandarin Online on Magic Ship https://www.youtube.com/@ALGMandarin Total hours of video: 104.92

Jiayun Mandarin https://www.youtube.com/@JiayunMandarin Total hours of video: 3.42

Simply Chinese https://www.youtube.com/@SimplyChinese Total hours of video: 1.76

Story Learning Chinese with Annie https://www.youtube.com/@annieluo1307 Total hours of video: 25.97

You Can Chinese 语感中文 https://www.youtube.com/@youcanchinese3992 Total hours of video: 12.37

CommonsenseChinese https://www.youtube.com/@CommonsenseChinese Total hours of video: 7.32

Comprehensible Taiwanese Mandarin https://www.youtube.com/@ComprehensibleTaiwaneseM-cd3rg Total hours of video: 3.44

Jun - Stickynote Chinese https://www.youtube.com/@Stickynote.Chinese Total hours of video: 4

Little Fox Chinese - Stories & Songs for Learners (Little Fox Chinese also has graded readers on their website https://chinese.littlefox.com/en) https://www.youtube.com/@LittleFoxChinese Total hours of video: 171.90

If you watch all of the content above, you'll have watched: 611.51

Children's Cartoon Channels The content is audio-visual and children's cartoons tend to mostly be language about things going on in the story, so it can be used by beginners if they need more visual content. Probably more suitable for intermediate learners.

Peppa Pig Mandarin (165 videos) https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIBGRuWcCrZ7cuLwdQN9kqmxyUmZcN-jt&feature=shared Total hours of video: 14.64

简中 Little Chinese Learners [Simplified Chinese] https://www.youtube.com/@littlechineselearnerssimpl4680 Total hours of video: 12.41

熊熊乐园 Boonie Cubs Full show playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4egc7s5z_o&list=PL7Mo6zwP_iN2dpTb78hAzfGnDWHiW99NB Total hours of video: 11.71

Shimajiro Qiao Hu Full show playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMyYSBfFp63EKlH__aaASmIHtaCYtyKec Total hours of video: 29.80 hours

Total hours of all listed cartoon channel playlists: 68.56 hours

Additional resources that can be used as comprehensible input once a learner is upper beginner or intermediate:

Some of these have english in the transcripts or on the videos, just use as a listening resource if you are trying to do purely comprehensible input. Also, some of the spotify podcasts have some episodes locked for only people paying membership.

Maomi Chinese Podcast https://open.spotify.com/playlist/17W0woUfmMw4mpSZIAlWvG

Learn Chinese Through Stories Podcast (The easiest episode names start with 1, then 2 as more difficult, then 3) https://open.spotify.com/show/04re9FvL1xviHGWvXKoAhZ

Learn Chinese Through Vlogs https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLToqbzfhNVNqwSTxzmT9idncllckh25Zg Total hours on youtube: 1.1 hours

Talk Taiwanese Mandarin with Abby, Intermediate Chinese Podcast (HSK 4-5+ / TOCFL BAND A-B) https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIy2zw_HVkZ9wFezMg_fW_2b70ktYXjvb Total hours on youtube: 18.36 hours

Talk Taiwanese Mandarin with Abby, Upper Intermediate - Advanced Chinese Podcast (HSK 5-6 +/TOCFL Band B - C) https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIy2zw_HVkZ_WjG8vBVOHIdbpTJ9nefNH Total hours on youtube: 9.71 hours

Mandarin Corner Audio Podcasts https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7VdqFXO0LzfkppQUNIgbd7hSrYsRJHFn Total hours on youtube: 35.73

Chinese with Da Peng Podcast https://open.spotify.com/show/4Xgf5VBTn1azv5yFOX1EPI

TeaTime Chinese Podcast https://open.spotify.com/show/6mJNegfDGmNaG1mWJtZJed https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhRGJL8iF6uQ3-R-HRblNT2fMd-OoMfJi Total hours on youtube: 28.13 hours

Talk to Me in Chinese Podcast https://open.spotify.com/show/31VvYsaas7ijlHhR2dqB25

Chinese Podcast with Shenglan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUy2LT9PiME&list=PLiciRgVuKV1AXFuGYkHSBp3ENbiNfzGq1 Total hours on youtube: 30.44 hours

Dashu Mandarin Podcast https://www.youtube.com/@dashumandarin/ Total hours on youtube: 198.35 hours

For curiosity's sake I ran some other comprehensible input lesson youtube channels through ytexplore.com to see the hours of content they have.

Comprehensible Japanese Total hours of video: 28.33 hours (Comprehensible Japanese has a website that has more videos for a subscription)

French Comprehensible Input Total hours of video: 153.38 hours

Dreaming Spanish Total hours of video: 190.41 hours (Dreaming Spanish website subscription has more hours of content)

Comprehensible Thai (Out of all the channels I looked up, this comprehensible input channel has the most hours of lessons by far and the only one where I can see a learner using just this and then content made for native speakers once they understand enough. The other channels I looked at either have way too little content on their own to get to 1000-1500 hours, or require a paid subscription to get close to enough hours of lessons) Total hours of video: 1,254.92 hours

Comprehensible Russian Total hours of video: 50.18 hours

[rigelmejo]

Putting my thoughts together regarding Mandarin pronunciation.

ALG purists believe if they get a lot of comprehensible input, and wait to speak for 1000-2000 hours, they will have great pronunciation. whosdamike on reddit posts updates of him learning Thai through ALG, and reports that his pronunciation is usually clear but sometimes people correct very badly pronounced words, and he is recording speaking samples but likely will not post them until 3000 hours to show the progress over time. I am curious about this because Thai has tones, similar to Mandarin, and I'm wondering how the fuck learning pronunciation goes if you don't ever purposely study the tones...

Youtuber Metatron Academy who studied Mandarin using the traditional methods, so he studied tones consciously as he learned each word, mentions that people who speak A2-B1 Mandarin sometimes speak tones exaggerated for a while, as they get used to remembering to say the tones. I totally get what he's talking about, I exaggerated the tones in words the first 2 years I was studying, and I would agree it's a very common experience beginners/lower intermediate learners go through.

Me as my own case study - I studied tones consciously for about 2 years, then decided to just 'listen' to new words pronounced when I encountered one in reading and then continue reading. Then decided to listen a bunch and continue listening. I stopped noting the tones new words were over 2 years ago. I can hear the difference between chengren (admit) and chengren (adult) but I could not tell you the tones those words are. I no longer think of the words in terms of 'what tone do they use'. I used to score very well on dong-chinese.com's tone trainer, now I score 50% as if my ability to determine the tone I'm hearing is lost. I really struggle to conciously identify the tones a given word uses, in terms of actually labelling it. But I can distinguish words with different tones if I'm listening (for example: ma - mom and ma - scold sound clearly different to me, chengren - admit and chengren - adult sound clearly different to me). Frankly... if I had to guess, which is just a random guess based on nothing concrete, I suspect I can hear tones better than 2 years ago but I'm no longer labelling them as 'tones' in my head, words are just getting categorized in my mind like 'read' (pronounced 'red') and 'read' (pronounced 'reed'), aka 'spelled the same but pronounced different' and of course as different meanings. I suspect my pronunciation is much better than it was 2 years ago, especially the initials and finals. But since I have no mental label for what 'tones' any words are, maybe my tones are worse now? I imagine my final speaking results will be somewhat similar to whosdamike. But I have 'traditional study' which ALG purists think would damage accent, so maybe I'll have worse pronunciation than whosdamike.

If I recorded myself speaking, would anyone be willing to listen and let me know what aspects of my pronunciation sound worse? As in, let me know if I'm messing up the tones (2+ years ago I used to mess up and say 2nd tone at the end of most sentences, and say 1st tone as 2nd tone a lot). Let me know if there's a particular initial or final I'm messing up (I used to fuck up qu/chu a lot 2+ years ago). I suspect I fuck up hen constantly (as I overthink what fucking tone to use for hen as I know it's 3rd tone, but it changes to 2nd tone because of tone sandhi before other 3rd tone words...). I don't want any feedback on grammar lol I suspect that sucks.

[rigelmejo]

What is Automatic Language Growth?

For some reading material on what Automatic Language Growth theory is, see this article from Mandarin from Scratch, ALG in a Few Words from Dreaming Spanish, and Marvin Brown's book about ALG. Marvin Brown is who theorized Automatic Language Growth.

I do not agree 100% with ALG theory, it has not been tested much (like many language learning theories). It's claims have not been studied enough. Students who have done ALG certainly learn the language, so it is at least a successful approach (among many approaches people successfully use). Pablo from Dreaming Spanish is an example of ALG successfully working, he did ALG classes to learn Thai, and his lessons at Dreaming Spanish have resulted in many people learning Spanish to a decent level (see r/dreamingspanish for various learners progress reports and results).

I would suggest if anyone is curious about trying Automatic Language Growth to either:

1. Check out Comprehensible Thai on youtube. Since there is enough comprehensible input lessons for Thai to go from nothing to functional in the language. Thai is where ALG programs started, so there's also multiple language schools that do ALG in Thailand and online that offer lesson sessions. On reddit, user whosdamike has documented his progress learning Thai through ALG. So there's someone you can specifically look at, to see the potential results and path to progress. Note: r/ALGhub is very dogmatic about strictly adhering to ALG, and its possible a school focused on ALG specifically will also be quite strict about adhering, if you choose to take ALG school classes.

2. Check out Dreaming Spanish. They have a free youtube channel, and more paid lessons on their website. Their website has a guide on how to do an "ALG like" approach with the material Dreaming Spanish makes, and a Roadmap to help you gauge your progress. I would say Dreaming Spanish suggests learners do an ALG approach, but they do offer suggestions for if you want to read or speak earlier than ALG recommends, and they do not worry about "permanent damage" from prior study (as MANY Dreaming Spanish learners already have some experience learning Spanish before they find Dreaming Spanish).

On reddit r/dreamingspanish has a lot of people sharing their progress, and you can find many people who reached B2 and some who reached C1 level in Spanish. You'll find some did a "purist" stricter ALG approach, and some just used the Dreaming Spanish Comprehensible Input Lessons along with other things. So you can see their progress and what they did, and decide for yourself how strictly you want to do ALG or if you want to include other things like some people do. The r/dreaminglanguages and r/dreamingspanish subreddit have various people doing a study approach similar to ALG, while still including many people who deviate to some degree. So those subreddits will all be more welcoming to you if you choose to do something outside of ALG/against ALG ideas. Whereas the r/ALGhub is very dogmatic and assumes all people are very strictly adhering to ALG ideas, and will reject any suggestions to deviate.

As a note, r/languagelearning can be quite hostile to learners doing strict ALG, and learners doing the "purist" Dreaming Spanish route. So you will not get much discussion about ALG on that subreddit.

3. Check out Comprehensible Input Wiki, and use the Comprehensible Input Lessons linked there as a starting place to look for more stuff you understand the main idea of, in the language you're learning. You can use the Dreaming Spanish roadmap as a guide for how to study in an ALG way, if you want to try out an ALG approach.

If you don't care to specifically do ALG and just want to use primarily comprehensible input to learn a language: you can just use comprehensible input lessons, learner podcasts, and graded readers, in combination with whatever other study materials you want to use. Many people on r/dreaminglanguages are pretty much finding enough CI lessons, graded readers, learner podcasts, and cartoons for toddlers to learn the basics, then watching/reading/listening to stuff they understand the main idea of in the target language, and doing some other stuff depending on the person.

Time to learn a language: regardless of if you do an ALG approach, the Dreaming Spanish Roadmap and FSI Estimates to Learn a Language (count by class and self study hours so 40 hours for each week estimate), are both good guides for estimating how many hours of study to aim for to reach your goals.

Dreaming Spanish Level 7 is around B2 if you practice speaking 100-200 hours and read 1 million+ words, which the roadmap recommends. FSI Estimates are around B2 as well. So for languages similar to ones you know, estimates to B2 are around 1200-1500 hours. For languages extremely different from ones you know, B2 is around 3000 hours (Dreaming Spanish) to 3520 hours (FSI Estimate). Keep in mind that these estimates may be a bit shorter than the average, so some people can expect to add 500-1000 hours. So for pretty much any language, estimates range from ~1200-4500 hours you'll expect to put in. Regardless of if you take the Dreaming Spanish comprehensible input estimate, or the FSI traditional study estimate. Regardless of if you learn a language similar to one you know, or very different to one you know, you can expect at least 1000 hours must be put into learning. So keep that in mind when making a study plan and goals.

(A note on estimates: Dreaming Spanish estimates that if a language is Very similar to one you know, and/or you have learned a language before, then the roadmap estimates can be halved. So it's possible a French speaker learning Spanish would only need 750 hours to learn Spanish to B2 level. Or if an English speaker who learned French, and then learned Spanish then Spanish may only take 750 hours. So you can reduce the estimated hours to learn a language down to several hundred hours - instead of a thousand or more - if you already know a Very similar language).

[rigelmejo]

chinese listening experiment, other notes (because there's a lot floating in my head lol)

Tones:

I am curious how someone doing Automatic Language Growth completely, from the beginning, develops their ear for recognizing tones and their ability to produce them with no explicit instruction. whosdamike on reddit does a lot of wonderfully detailed updates about his journey using the ALG approach to learn Thai - following the recommendations ALG has, and taking ALG classes in Thai. He hasn't mentioned tones much, I just find in this update he did: "My ability to distinguish tones is improved since 1000 hours, though certain words still give me trouble" and he mentioned when he speaks words into google translate it shows the correct word he meant to say, and "When I shadow a native speaker and compare tone profiles, the shape of my tones matches very closely."

I am at a point where, for chinese words I understand when listening, it's obvious to me which word I heard. Definitely when it's in context such as in a sentence, but for common words (most ~3000 probably) this is also true when I listen to a 'minimal pair guess the tones' video on youtube like Grace Mandarin makes, I always know which word I heard. I definitely think, similar to in english knowing when I hear 'red' the color versus 'read' the past tense, I just know which word I heard. Or 'know' versus 'no', I just know which word I'm hearing in chinese. Words I have learned in listening, with the same pinyin and different tones sound as different to me as "Lead: The metal (lehd) vs. to guide (LEE-d)" in english.

However, I cannot for the life of me GUESS consciously which pinyin tone I should put on a word I heard. I know whether I heard chengren (admit) or chengren (adult), I hear the difference as these words sound VERY different to me now (as different as 'read' present tense versus 'read' past tense sound in english), but if asked to specifically tell someone which tones I heard, I can't tell them correctly. I cannot identify correctly if I heard 1, 2, 3, 4, or neutral tone. I struggle immensely to label what tones I've just heard. Maybe native speakers struggle to label the tones they heard, and I don't have a problem. But I definitely am worried about my inability to correctly identify the tones I've just heard in something. It means whenever I try to read a word based on a pinyin I see, I'm worried I'm reading the tones wrong and worried I am assuming I need to make a totally different sound then I'm supposed to. This is not a problem with words I know well from listening, as I mentally know what it sounds like and I'll say it that way instead of relying on pinyin.

I am worried whenever I do speak more, my tones will just be fucked. I am worried I will speak wrong, say words in a way that is not understandable. I am worried if I consciously think about how I should pronounce a word (so look up the pinyin with tones) I'll butcher words when I say them, by saying the wrong sounds because I've misinterpreted what X tone pinyin mark stands for in terms of sound. Basically, if I consciously try to make a certain tone sound, I do it wrong like 50% of the time. If I consciously try to identify and label a word's tones, I label wrong 50% of the time. I am not sure how to fix these issues.

Pronunciation:

A lot of talk in ALG discussions, and on Dreaming Spanish, are about if a long silent period and 'no prior damage' (no prior explicit study of the language) will result in a better pronunciation that is closer to a native speaker's.

I do think a period where you listen to the ACTUAL sounds of the language, and listen to the actual pronunciation - instead of text only approximations of the language's sounds that use your native language to compare - will result in better pronunciation. I think better listening skills will also result in better pronunciation - as you can clearly differentiate more sounds of the language, I would imagine you also can tell whether you're producing the right sounds better.

I personally don't necessarily think listening to the actual sounds of the language, requires a silent period where you don't talk. I do think if you talk early, you may make some mistakes you'll later need to unlearn, once you get enough listening skill to notice you made mistakes initially.

A LOT of people who do an ALG approach believe a silent period is required, since that's part of the ALG theory. Dreaming Spanish roadmap guides learners to have a silent period for 1000 hours, to ensure a better pronunciation. There's a LOT of examples of Dreaming Spanish learners on r/dreamingspanish, who spoke early and their accent improved over time, who spoke after 1000 hours and had bad accents that rapidly improved over a few dozen hours, who spoke after 1000 hours and had great accents immediately, and who spoke after 1000 hours and still had poor accents after hundreds more of hours of speaking.

Based on all of that... I think to get as close to a native speaker's accent as possible... it partly comes down to personal skills. Waiting to speak may HELP make your accent more understandable when you start speaking, and getting a lot of listening skill before speaking may HELP make your accent more understandable when you start speaking. And practice speaking more, may help some people improve their accent. But not everyone improves until they sound like a native speaker.

caddberrie on youtube has excellent pronunciation, in terms of clearly speaking in a way that is understandable, in all the languages I've heard her speak. Including her speaking as a beginner in Chinese. Way better than I sounded at HSK 2. I think she must 1. probably have a good study plan for learning pronunciation early that works well for her in languages, and 2. she may just naturally be good at emulating pronunciation/sounds. Some people are just better at it.

[rigelmejo]

I've been on an Automatic Language Growth and Dreaming Spanish kick lately. But I want y'all to know I do not believe the ALG hypothesis. I do not think a person must study the way Dreaming Spanish guide suggests.

I am just testing out some of the claims Dreaming Spanish makes, such as the roadmap milestones in X hours, and I'm trying to study the way they suggest so I can give it a fair shot to give me the expected results in the expected timeline it claims (which for me an English speaker, is 2 times the DS Roadmap hours for a language like Mandarin). I figure I'll study the way it suggests, engaging with comprehensible input and just focusing on understanding, avoiding conciously thinking about the language and avoiding output for now, to see if I get the results DS suggests I will.

I do not think ALG is 100% right. I think it's just a theory that Marvin Brown had, and I'd need to see more proof to ever be convinced it's correct 100%. I think it's fine to apply the ALG guidelines to classes/programs like ALG Thai that expect you to engage in the material while following such guidelines. Since those classes can only "promise" expected results, if engaged the way they tell you to engage with them. (That's not to say doing their classes different would fail - just that your results will be more individual and unpredictable, compared to doing as the class instructs you).

I think comprehensible input (learning through experiencing a language in situations you understand) is fully compatible with explicit study of language. Steven Krashen's input hypothesis, which is that you learn through understanding meaningful experiences in the language (get comprehensible input), is compatible with explicit study. Krashen thought explicit study helped develop your inner "monitor" to notice if you made mistakes, to correct your own mistakes. Just like how in your native language, learning explicitly more about grammar helps you fix issues like "runned/ran" "swimmed/swam" "their/they're/there" as you go through school. So basically that's what I believe - that all forms of language studying, all study activities, have served some purpose for some person who finds use in them.

There is a use in explicit study. It's up to you to determine if and when to explicitly study, to serve your goals. Or to take a class that decides it for you. Some will explicitly study early on - with textbooks, translations, tutors, etc. Some will explicitly study later - with conversational partners correcting them, tutors correcting grammar mistakes in speaking and writing. Or learning about specific topics IN the target language - textbooks and classes will define/explain new words in simpler words even if it's all in the target language. Some kind of explicit instruction about the language will eventually occur.

Every language learner WILL get comprehensible input eventually, if they engage with the language enough - either in textbooks, graded readers, lessons tailored for learners like Comprehensible Input lessons or learner podcasts, OR in just reading/watching stuff for native speakers and talking/writing with other people. Eventually, everyone does this in languages they use. So it will happen, and it will help.

I am not the kind of person who wants to throw out whole learning materials and write something off as useless or bad. I truly think people should do WHATEVER WORKS FOR THEM. And it will be different to some degree, for everyone. So I don't think "refold" is some perfectly correct language learning method, or ALG is perfect and the "only way to truly learn a language." But I've seen a lot of people who do think that :/