#and also was known to converse a lot with rhaegar and was at the wall for mance’s childhood etc etc

[mummer]

ik aemon primarily raising mance exists SOLELY as my own headcanon but the idea of aemon saying kill the boy let the man be born to egg and then mance and then jon is making me cuckoo bananas in ways i did not think possible.

[janiedean]

PLEASE tell me about sam >> the world and the rock band au.

OKAY SO:

 sam >>> the world was... originally a thing I wrote for an exchange which then I scrapped bc it got too long and I never finished it, but basically the concept was jon gets robb’s will before he’s elected LC and he accepts being kitn except he goes to sam like PLEASE SAM BE MY HAND OR I CAN’T DO THIS, and then sam was going to proceed on solving Each Single Problem Jon Could Have starting from being friends with theon to finding sansa in the vale to finding arya and sandor to basically really solving everything and it was gonna be jon/sam but eeeeh I quit when sandor showed up bc I lost track of the plot T_T HOWEVER, I WOULD LIKE TO FIND AND QUOTE YOU A BIT WHERE BASICALLY SAM DRAGGED THEON WITH HIM TO THE VALE BC HE WAS SURE THEY’D KILL HIM OTHERWISE WHERE THEON RECOGNIZED SANSA AND TOLD SAM IT WAS HER WHICH IS2G WHEN DND HAD THE SAME THING HAPPEN WITH POD AND BRIENNE IN S5 I SCREAMED BECAUSE I WROTE THIS SHIT IN 2013 OR 2014 AND I SAID WHAT I SAID

“Go, go,” Baelish says, and he looks pale as a sheet as well. At least he didn’t have anything witty to say, Sam thinks before grabbing Theon’s arm and leading him outside the room.

“Stop,” Theon tells him a moment later. “I don’t – I just need some air. I don’t think – I won’t.”

“All right,” Sam agrees before leading him towards a half-open window in the hallway.

“I’m sorry,” he says as Theon takes deep, heavy breaths.

“For what?”

“I didn’t even – how did you know?”

“Don’t you think that Ramsay Bolton would have spared me the details?” Theon whispers. “I threw up. Then. And he – he also threw at me handfuls of red hair covered in blood. I told you I could play along.”

Sam thinks that he’s going to be sick.

“But – I need you to listen to me,” Theon whispers then, his voice still shaking, as if he’s forcing himself to say what he’s about to say.

“What?”

“The Lord Protector’s daughter.”

“Yes, what about her?”

“That’s no bastard. She’s Sansa Stark.”

For a moment, Sam is sure he’s heard wrong.

“She’s who?”

“Sansa. She dyed her hair and she’s older than – well, the last time I saw her, but I lived at Winterfell for nine years. Do you think I wouldn’t recognize her?”

And it does make sense. Sansa disappeared from King’s Landing when Baelish went to the Vale, didn’t she? Sam is pretty sure of that.

“And – you saw her when I was telling that story. She looked sick. As much as I felt.”

Oh gods be good. He’s right. Sam wonders how a simple mission suddenly turned out complicated – and if Theon hadn’t been there he wouldn’t have even known, would he?

He thinks about his options.

And then he hopes that he still has some courage left and that he hadn’t exhausted it when he killed an Other.

“All right,” he whispers. “I have no idea of why she’s here, but if she wants to come with… do you think you have it in yourself to go down the mountain twice in one day?”

Theon goes pale all over again. Sam had noticed that he could barely keep his eyes open the first time.

“What’s the plan?” he asks.

“I’m asking her. If it’s true, and if she’s here against her will… well, I already know I’m not getting Baelish’s men. And I’m sure that if I came back with his sister Jon – I mean –”

“You don’t need to call him His Grace,” Theon says, and he sounds almost amused. Barely. As much as someone like him can sound amused. “I couldn’t call Robb like that either.”

“Fine. Jon would like that better than an army, I think. So, do you think you can do it?”

Theon shakes his head again and then looks up at him. “I don’t think that I’d ever want to do it again, but just the fact that you asked first makes me think that I can try it.”

Well then, Sam thinks, that’s settled.

like excuse me but what the fuck

rock band au: okay so I had written this rock band au for jonc/brynden for that last prompt meme I took which I should finish one of these days but like then I was doing this chalenge and I ended up writing a sequel for it where they’re touring with theon who’s like the opening solo act for their band and him and jaime argue in the changing room also theon is with robb who’s the long suffering agent and theon wants jaime to hit on brienne who’s like going to all the concerts and it’s actually finished but I really need to revise it and see if I can put it together with the other one, at the end of it theon and robb had a moment™ backstage while jaime and brienne got together post-concert but here have a snipped or more:

“You know that girl that always is in first row, Lannister?”

“I do, Greyjoy. I very well damn do, and is there a reason you’re gloating at me now?”

“Just saying,” Theon says, and Jaime thinks, don’t finish that sentence, don’t finish that sentence, don't finish that sentence, “that while the time for groupies is over, I mean, supposedly so, considering that you invite her backstage every other moment and that she’s been at each single show of this tour, maybe you could invite her.”

“Can it,” Jaime groans, “no way. I’m not —”

“And why not? Come on, I’ve opened for your band for the entire last month, we drove through half of this bloody fucking country and I know for sure that you’re the only person in it that’s not getting any, and seeing your pretty face, it’s honestly baffling.”

“And since when do you care about how much I’m getting? Are you volunteering?”

Theon laughs, dark hair falling all over his shoulders as he fixes his leather trousers in front of their shared changing room — yes, this venue is so shitty that they have to share rooms in between bands, and fine, Theon’s technically a solo act but he does have a band, and he hopes the others are not being too cramped because their room is so small they can’t even change at the same time. He nods, pleased with his hair, definitely, and then goes to grab a black shirt from his bag and puts it on without closing it. Guess this is the night where he plays with his shirt open making sure his poor manager dies of frustration.

Robb Stark is a saint, Jaime thinks sometimes, because to manage this guy, you really need to have an insane amount of patience.

Good thing that they never needed one and Jon always took care of it, but still.

“I mean,” Theon says, “in the ideal world, I would, but alas, I know that it’s not meant to be. For one, I’m not your Kinsey scale one —”

“How the fuck do you know that?”

“What, that you’re a one or that I’m not it?”

“Both, for —”

“I mean,” Theon goes on, “you obviously aren’t a zero or you wouldn’t stare at your bassist’s ass, and honestly also at your guitarist’s, and I wouldn’t exclude, you know, that you three might have had a go at it at some point —”

“That never happened!” Jaime protests, not that he hasn’t entertained that thought once or twice, but still, he doesn’t bat for that team, as a general rule. He just hates that Theon has apparently figured him out that easily.

“Regardless,” Theon goes on, “you’re a one, but if those two are your type, considering they’re both older than you and ginger and blue eyed and I’m not either of that, I think I’m not it. Also, no way you like pitching.”

+ throbb snippet

“So,” Theon says, as he drags Robb towards the back exit, “I might have told Lannister that I’d leave him the changing room for the night.”

“… What,” Robb says, following even if he’s trying to slow him down, “he finally decided to fess up to that poor girl?”

“Oh, that’s to be seen, I just gave him the chance to,” Theon shrugs, “which is why we’re taking a cab and going to the hotel at once.”

“Wait,” Robb says, “we should —”

He never finishes the sentence because Theon presses him against the wall and kisses him and fucking hell, Robb would like to just give in and let him and actually he would like to grab Theon’s shoulders and press him against the fucking wall, except —

“We should wait until the Kingsguard is done,” he breathes, “you agreed to sign those records, but it has to be with them. And people paid for it.”

“Oh, of course, ever the correct person —”

“Theon, I’m your fucking manager, you picked me, it’s not like you can exactly skirt around — obligations,” he groans when Theon sucks a bruise into his neck.

“Right, right, so you’d rather stay here and wait two hours instead of running to the hotel with me? We could make it, you know, if Jimmy Page and Robert Plant could —”

“It’s not the fucking seventies,” Robb groans, wishing Theon would just not press, even if fuck but now he really feels like he’s going to come in his trousers like a fifteen year-old and the fact that he’s definitely been wanting to kiss Theon at least since then is not helping, and yet —

“Really? I missed that memo.”

+ jb snippet

“Sure,” she says, reaching out to grab it, and then she swallows — “You know,” she said, “you sounded… more intense today.”

“Did I,” he says. “How?”

She shrugs, her large shoulders barely slimmed by the black band shirt sporting his face that she’s wearing, and fuck if it was weird being the face of the merchandise, except that it had to happen.

Fucking Targaryen.

“I’m not quite sure,” she says, “just… there was a difference? In the good sense, though. You felt… more immersed, not to say that you’re not usually, it’s just… I don’t know, I felt like crying more than once.”

Oh.

Well.

“Maybe,” he sighs, “I had a conversation with Greyjoy before that made me realize a few things,” he goes on. “I suppose. I don’t know,” he shakes his head, “I just… you’ve been listening to us since before Rhaegar fucked off, and I just — I guess it just sank in that I’m not going back to my former job anytime soon.”

“Can — can I say I’m not sad that you aren’t?”

“You can,” Jaime shrugs, “it’s just, it felt a bit too much. I never signed up for that.”

“But you sing those songs a lot better than he did.”

“Not the first person that told me that, today.”

“But it’s true. He just — he was good. But you just have a whole other delivery.” She blushes, guileless blue eyes staring into his, and he thinks of how she told him that his songs made her survive high school and some kind of ridiculous bet her supposed friends made about her fucking v-card and he just — fuck. She’s so nice. She’s the kind of nice person you wouldn’t presume listens to his fucked up lyrics, and yet.

And yet she does.

[snowstormjonerys]

 So I read a couple theories and this one by @muttpeeta stuck out to me and I started thinking about a couple of things.  And yes, the original leaks might be true but I am a delusionist optimist at heart but here goes.  Putting this under a read more because it got long:  Don’t read further if you don’t want spoiled to the ending of the show.  

First off, let’s just consider the fact that they released these for Mother’s Day of all days and they’re pitting the Mother of Dragons and the Mother of Evil against each other for the Battle of the Mad Queens ON MOTHER’S DAY means nothing.  I see you HBO.  I see you.  

I want to discuss the style of the photos first.  They are a renaissance type portrait and were done by Ignasi Monreal who also does a lot of artwork and concept art for Gucci (check out their work; it’s amazing).  

The art for this is very interesting a lot of ways but first we are going to talk about the most important thing:  the fact that Dany’s hand is covering her belly in a protective manner.  First off, this is a very specific type of Renaissance portrait referred to as the “pregnancy pose.”  !!!!!!!  So yes, Dany is very likely pregnant.  Cersei is also holding this pose in her picture and she is known to be pregnant.  

This “Portrait of a Woman in Red” by Marcus Gheeraerts II.  This style of portrait was often done to signify the woman’s role in providing an heir. “ At a time when a wife’s principal role was to bear as many healthy heirs as possible to perpetuate and extend a family’s name and influence, such a portrait would act as a form of visual evidence of anticipated dynastic success. At the same time, the childbirth process was potentially so hazardous that the portrait might also act as a record of the features of a beloved individual who could shortly die.” (x). 

So there’s the good in it:  Dany is very likely pregnant and if the Spanish leaks are to be believed then Cersei is not really pregnant.  Every single thing about her is false.  She is a fake; passes off her bastards as fake heirs; she lies about everything and she is very likely not actually pregnant.  She is the REAL MAD QUEEN.  

Conversely, everything about Dany is good.  She has freed slaves, helped defeat the night king, is the mother of dragons, and there is not a bad bone in her body.  She is very likely truly pregnant and therefore can produce a trueborn heir to the throne. Therefore Dany is NOT the mad queen.  Basically if this is what happens, Dany is revealed to be pregnant with Jon’s child.  

What I think would happen then is that Dany and Jon would decide off screen that they are better off alone and away from everyone as they and their child would never be safe.  How do they know this?  

Dany spent her childhood in exile and was sold off into slavery.  Why?  Because Robert Baratheon wanted her dead.  Jon Stark spent his life thinking he was a bastard because he was the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.  He would have been murdered had his identity been found out.  Their world has rules.  In the Game of Thrones, you Win or you Die.  What if the only way they win is if Danaerys “dies”. 

What I propose is a fake death for Dany, in that part of the leaks might be true. Jon stabs Dany and fakes her death.  Drogon carries her off. To the North, beyond the wall to Jon and Dany’s waterfall.  Jon “takes the black” and goes North.  Tormund actually factually said to Jon the north is in you.  And Jon gives Ghost to Tormund saying the south isn’t right for him.  

Because really, really, really, why was the waterfall scene in there at all.  

“We could stay here a thousand years and no one would ever find us.”  

“We’d be pretty old.”  

They would grow old here together with their child.  Make a home and a life in the far North where no one would ever find them.  Where their child wouldn’t have to be in exile. Or in fear where someone would try to murder them.  Let’s face it:  Both their childhoods were not happy because men or women in power wanted them dead because they were a threat to the iron throne. 

Dany, if pregnant, would not care one bit anymore about the Iron Throne.  Her entire focus would change to protecting her child.   They could live in the North.  Where they’d be safe.

Where they could live out their lives loving one another and their child(ren).  They could easily have filmed this away from everyone’s watchful eye.  Just Emilia, Kit and a handful of crew.  No standersby.  They could have filmed it at the same time as the waterfall scene.  

Because really in context of everything else that has happened this season, that scene is really quite gratuitous and in a show where perfectly good content is cut all the time for time limits, it’s hard to believe that this scene is in there for no good reason other than to give us a beautiful make out session at a waterfall.  It must be foreshadowing.  

Lastly, the frames of the picture caught my eye.  Other than their house sigils, Dany’s has ice around it and Cersei’s has fire.  A Song of Ice and Fire might well also be played upon with the Mad Queen/False Mad Queen theme here.  Cersei’s is covered in fire and fire is even in the background behind her.  We have all heard that she dies at King’s Landing, likely by fire.  So it’s funny that the Dragon Queen who has long been associated with fire has ice in her motif of this Mother’s Day card photoset.  Why ice?  The white walkers are finished and have been.  So icy north backdrop doesn’t really make sense.   These were released May 1st.  This just strengthens my thoughts on all the above.  

And it would make good on the “A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing.”  They would never be alone.  They would always have each other.  Dany, Jon and their little Targling.  

I know I am probably delusional and will probably have my heart broken all over again if the original leaks are true.  But all this just stuck out to me and I thought I’d share.  

Also if we get a better ending than those original leaks, then I will gladly wear my clown mask for all to see.  lolz  xoxoxo 

[doumekiss]

sacred things (a song of ice and fire fanfic)

Lyanna/Howland // G // 1488 words // Lyanna goes to Howland’s wedding 

For @ladybingley

Howland was surprised when he heard news that the Starks would come to the wedding, as the house to which the Reeds were sworn in they always received a raven with an invitation, yet it had been more than a century since the last time a Stark had stepped on Greywater Watch. The boat arrived at dusk. When the boat was close enough Howland saw that the news were false, after all there was only one person with the surname Stark on the boat. But at least it was the only Stark he really wanted it to be from the moment he heard the news. He left the side of his parents and the other nobles to go to the water's edge and offer his hand for her to leave the boat, he had not agreed to do this but he was sure that his parents would not disapprove after all he was being a good host. The smile on his face could also perhaps be mistaken for that of a good host, though in reality it was more the smile of someone who is genuinely happy to see a specific person in front of him again. And Lyanna's smile was the same. "Welcome to the Greywater Watch Lady Lyanna," he said. "It's good to be here" Lyanna said. "Allow me to introduce you to my father and mother. Milady, these are Lord and Lady Reed " "Nice to meet you" "It's our pleasure to have a Stark here, especially you. Our Howland has told us a lot about you since Harrenhal "Lord Reed said. Their eyes met for a moment, and Howland tried to pass with that look that yes he had talked about her, but not about things that should not be public, things that only he and Prince Rhaegar knew. She seemed to understand. "All an exaggeration, I assure you" "Milady would like something to eat now, or maybe go to your room?" "Actually, first of all, I would like to go in your godswood, thank the gods for the safe journey before it gets dark. Howland can show me where it is, right? " "Of course, Howland accompany Miss Stark" Lyanna had three traveling companions, all of them servants of the Stark house, two were assigned to take the luggage to the castle, another to serve as guard to Howland and Lyanna in the woods, but when they reached the entrance Lyanna said to guard she and Howland would go on alone from now on, he seemed to hesitate for a moment, but did not argue. They walked together thinking it should have felt strange, they'd only known each other for a week and then spent more months apart, but somehow didn’t feel it. "So I'll meet your betrothed at dinner?" Lyanna asked. "I'm afraid not, she lives on another island, she'll be arriving with her family in the morning" "Pity, I wanted to talk to her, see what she looks like" "You can talk to her tomorrow" "Yes, but she will already be your wife when I do this, not your bride" "She's still going to be the same person" "Maybe not, others keep saying that marriage changes you, maybe it's not just foolish talk in that case ... are you getting married here?" She asked as they reached the front of the Heart Tree sitting on the rocks below and pointing to Howland sit next to her. "Yes, obviously" "Not obviously, I grew up thinking that I was going to marry in front of a Heart Tree but it's a wedding in front of a Septuagint of Seven that awaits me" "Maybe you could have both, they have Godswoods in the south too" "One marriage with Robert Baratheon is bad enough, I don't need a second" He laughed. "So at what time will the ceremony be?" She asked. "In the morning ... a part of me still can not believe that tomorrow I will be a married man" She looked at him looking melancholic for a moment, then she smiled and said : "You could run away easy if you wanted to. It would not be at all difficult for a man to do so" "And where would I go?" "I don't know, you could cross the sea and go to Esos, or see everything beyond the wall. You could have adventures and live a life that they will write songs about. Could be fun " "Maybe, but I don’t want to run away. I like this place, these people, my bride. I can't say I love her yet but I like her a lot, I'm sure that love will eventually come " "That's nice. I doubt that I will feel this way on the eve of my nuptials with Robert Baratheon " "Who knows, a lot can happen in a few months" "I'm well aware of that. I was surprised when I heard from your engagement, you did not mention anything about being promised when we were in Harrenhal " "Because I wasn't at the time... my father had me at the age that most men have grandchildren, shortly after I came back from Harrenhal he got sick, and he said that one of his regrets was not to have seen me married, he got better but who knows next time, he is old and weak and he wants to see me married before he dies. It seems selfish not to give him something so small "

"A marriage is never a small thing Howland... Prince Rhaegar has sent me letters" "What ? Does your father know that? " "No, Rhaegar sends them through the Connington household, I told my father that I made friends with one of Lord Jon's cousins when we were in Harrenhal, he did not question that. For a while I was sure he was going to open one of the letters and find out but he never did and now I'm sure he will never, the conversations and feelings of girls have very little interest for Lord Rickard " "I worry about your involvement with the prince" "There is no involvement, we just talk" "He crowned you queen of love and beauty instead of his own wife" "He wanted to honor me, and you know why" "He could find a way to do this that would not end up with his wife humiliated in front of everyone" "Maybe his methods were bad, but his intentions were pure. That counts for something right? " "I'm not sure. What does the prince say in his letters? " "Not much, he usually focuses more on me, he asks me what I like to do and my thoughts about things, it's so different from Robert's letters, he always talks about everything he does, who he won in such and such tournament , I wouldn't even answer his letters if my father did not force me to" "Did you tell your father that you feel that way?" "Yes, and he does not care. His ambitions for connections to the south are his priority, not my heart " "I'm sorry, this is not fair, I wish I could do something" "You're listening and you're not saying I'm a foolish little girl for not wanting to marry the splendid Robert Baratheon, that's more than most would do" "It doesn't feel like it's enough" "Then you could take me away from here and save me from a very boring life as Lady Baratheon, we would cross the sea, I would be a swordswoman and you my loyal squire. We would see every city there is to see and we would be ridiculously happy together " "Would you ask me that?" "Not if you're happy with your life, you are happy right Howland?" "Yes, I am, but-" "So like I said there's nothing to ask, my dad always says I'm a very selfish girl and he isn't wrong, but I'm not selfish at that point" "Okay, just so you know if you asked me I'd say yes, not without hesitation, but for you I would go" "It's very easy to say this when you know you don't have to prove it. But thank you, I'll probably spend my years as Lady Baratheon imagining the adventures that a Lyanna even more selfish than me would have with you " "I'll imagine it too" They stood for a minute in silence, just enjoying each other's company and imagining a life that would never be. "I think we should go back, it's going to be dark soon," Lyanna said. "Alright" Howland said standing up. "You will not tell anyone about Rhaegar's letters, right?" "Your secret is safe with me. Along with all the others " "Good. And you’re not you going to tell anyone I tried to steal from your betrothed on the eve of your wedding? "Lyanna said and laughed. "This one is safe, too" Howland said and laughed, but inside he had an uncomfortable realization that if Lyanna had actually tried, she would have been successful.

Also available on ao3 

[nightqueendany]

What Does Jon Snow Know About Daenerys Targaryen?

Translation: Does Jon know enough about Daenerys to believe she’s someone who can’t be trusted AND/OR that she’s someone he thinks shouldn’t hold reigning power over the North?

AKA Is there even REASON for there to be a “Political Jon” in the first place? (aside from Jon apparently being in love with his sister which would be basing theory on theory {political Jon is true because Jon loves Sansa} which is the logical fallacy “Begging the Question”)

Let’s start with the basics.

What Jon would know of Daenerys aside from what Tyrion writes in his scroll?

Jon should know that Daenerys is the daughter of Mad King Aerys and that she was exiled as a baby and grew up in Essos. While we do have the scene of Sam reading to Aemon about Daenerys, Jon does not show up until the very end of that scene so it’s unclear if he heard about her freeing slaves in Essos. He would know Aemon is her great-great-uncle and that her brother Rhaegar kidnapped and raped his aunt Lyanna (allegedly).

That’s essentially it. Daenerys is never mentioned around book Jon so to ascertain Jon’s impression/thoughts of Daenerys, we only have Season 7 to go off of.

Without further adieu, here we go:

(another obnoxiously long-winded one, I probably ramble on a bit too long but whatever, read if you like)

7x02

Tyrion’s scroll  -

Queen Daenerys Targaryen, First of Her Name, invites you to Dragonstone. My queen commands the combined forces of Dorne and the Reach, an Ironborn fleet, legions of Unsullied, a Dothraki horde, and three dragons. The Seven Kingdoms will bleed as long as Cersei sits on the Iron Throne. Join us. Together we can end her tyranny. I appeal to you as one bastard to another. For all dwarves are bastards in their father’s eyes. - Tyrion Lannister, Hand of the Queen.

What can Jon surmise about Daenerys from Tyrion’s letter alone?

1) She’s powerful. She would have to be in order to command a Dothraki horde. Jon might not know much about the Dothraki, but he certainly grew up with stories of them. Lewin mentions Dothraki boys and how they learn to shoot a bow from horseback to Bran so we can assume Jon knows what they are, how fierce of warriors they are, and probably, that they’re a patriarchal society. With Daenerys being a woman commanding them, she’s got to be pretty damn special.

2) She has already won the allegiance of the Reach, Dorne, and the Ironborn (at least, some of them). The Reach and Dorne are easy to guess why they sided with Daenerys: because they hate the Lannisters/Cersei. However the Ironborn is the oddball. The Ironborn are “known” for their failed rebellions and wanting to distance themselves from the Iron Throne. And yet they’ve sided with Daenerys. That, in the least, tells Jon Daenerys brings more to the table than just revenge against Cersei. He may not know what that is yet, but he knows there’s something there, something other than Cersei, that would draw the Ironborn to her. Again, there’s something *different* about her.

3) She may have miraculously birthed dragons into the world again. It’s not written anywhere how this is done. That’s why the Targaryens went without dragons for 150 years though obviously there were eggs around. No one knew/remembered how to do it. Yet apparently, Daenerys figured it out and now has dragons. So she is *possibly* magical... like him.

4) Daenerys chose Tyrion as her Hand. Jon knows Tyrion is a dwarf and how people look on him. And as Tyrion reminds Jon in the letter all dwarves are bastards in their father’s eyes. Last Jon saw of Tyrion, he was just a bookworm and kind of a drunk, his only claims to fame being he was the Queen’s brother and a dwarf. Yet Daenerys chose him as her Hand anyway. She didn’t have to do that. She could have just kept Tyrion on her council for being a Lannister and picked someone else not related to her enemy as her Hand. But no, she chose him. This is likely the most telling thing Jon could learn about Daenerys. Knowing she chose Tyrion as her Hand, Jon can see Daenerys is someone who looks past a person’s outward “faults” and values them for who they really are, regardless of what society thinks of them. This right here was likely the deciding factor in Jon choosing to actually meet with her in person.

7x03

1) Jon and co are asked to hand over their weapons before meeting with Daenerys - Jon could see this as an intimidation move, a test to see if he’s “compliant”, a power play, what have you. Perhaps it’s meant to make Jon and co feel vulnerable, at Dany’s mercy, Jon doesn’t really know as he’s never met her, but it certainly rattles him. “My bannermen think I’m a fool for coming here,” he says and Tyrion doesn’t disagree with this statement. “If I was your Hand, I would have advised against it.” So Jon likely thinks Daenerys isn’t someone he wants to tangle with. If her own Hand is telling Jon he would have advised him not to come were he in Davos’ shoes, that tells Jon he may have made a mistake in coming. It’s not meant to make him feel at ease at all. So Jon goes in to meet Daenerys with his guard already up. To add to that feeling...:

2) Jon see’s Drogon. This clearly tells Jon Tyrion wasn’t lying about the dragon thing. They’re fucking real and really fucking huge. They could likely burn down Winterfell within minutes. Though Daenerys isn’t on Drogon’s back, controlling him, commanding him to fly over Jon and the welcome party, it’s yet another intimidation move, albeit unintentional. Again, Jon would likely be thinking about how powerful Daenerys really is. The evidence just flew over his freaking head. She’s powerful!

3) Daenerys is announced with all the bells, whistles, and titles and immediately assumes Jon is there to bend the knee. Jon clearly gets irritated during this conversation with Dany, telling her, “As far as I can tell, your claim to the throne rests entirely on your father’s name and my own father fought to overthrow the Mad King.” Jon likely thinks Daenerys arrogant for assuming he’d bend the knee to her without getting to know her, a bit full of herself for having to be announced with all her titles, entitled because she’s trying to reclaim the Kingdom when her family’s rule was overthrown, and likely that she has illusions of grandeur when she says “Together, we will save this country from those who would destroy it,” as if under her rule alone the Seven Kingdoms will be as right as rain. He’s not impressed by her visions of the future and he no doubt thinks her foolish for believing Cersei is the worst threat against the Seven Kingdoms when he’s standing there telling her it’s the Army of the Dead she should be focused on instead.

However, though Jon is clearly not impressed with Dany in this first conversation, seeds are sown of what she’s really like: She admits her father was an evil man and wants to be seen as different from him; she considers Jon a Stark worthy of holding the North for her though she knows he’s only a bastard; though she may want power for power’s sake, she also has lofty ideals about protecting people which *may* align with his own efforts. But of course, that’s yet to be seen.

4) Tyrion tells Jon that Daenerys stayed in Essos to “save people from horrible fates.” At this point, again, Jon has likely been on Dragonstone for a week or so and has probably now heard about her slave-freeing efforts in Essos. While Jon may not see the importance with what Daenerys was doing in Essos, he at least gets it from Tyrion that her true wish is to protect people. Though her version of saving people is not quite in line with Jon’s - Dany’s wishes more broad, wanting to rule and Jon’s wishes more narrow, just wanting to defeat the Night King - they do have this one small thing in common, regardless of how they approach the issue.

5) Daenerys gives Jon the dragonglass. Jon has just essentially ambushed Dany on the steps. It doesn’t appear as if it was a planned meeting between them. She’s just out there watching the dragons and watching the sunset and he comes to find her to speak with her alone. “You’ve been talking to Tyrion?” - that line right there tells us Jon wasn’t sent by Tyrion or summoned by Daenerys; it’s a completely candid moment between the two of them. Jon gets angry again and tells Daenerys he hasn’t changed his mind about not bending the knee - again, this likely makes him think she’s stubborn, entitled, difficult, shortsighted, any number of negative things.

BUT THEN Daenerys does something completely unexpected: she gives Jon the dragonglass AND alots him men to help him mine it. She doesn’t require Jon bend the knee for the glass and she doesn’t ask for any kind of payment from him. Though, yes, the dragonglass is virtually useless to Dany, at least with the White Walkers on the other side of the Wall, it’s still something Jon wants. It’s on her island. Supply and Demand. Dany could charge Jon a lot for this glass as he needs it and she has it. Gold would only help in her war against Cersei - buy some more ships, ship in supplies from Essos, etc. But she gives it to him for free AND she gives him men to help him - fighting men that could be spending their time on the battlefield instead of in the mines with him. In this moment, Jon may feel slightly defeated for Daenerys still *possibly* not believing him about the Army of the Dead and the Night King, but he also will be feeling grateful for her giving him the dragonglass free of charge. Daenerys knows next to nothing about Jon except he was named King by his people and he won’t bend the knee to her. But she gives him this anyway. She’s taking a leap of faith. Jon has to feel thankful to her. He’s not a punk. He knows Dany didn’t have to do this and he’s appreciative of the progress Daenerys is making toward an alliance with him. Again, Jon has done nothing to earn Dany’s trust aside from telling her of this mythical magical threat no one has seen in millennia. He offers her only words and an even bigger problem than she’s already facing. She offers him weapons. It’s an unequal exchange. Jon has to appreciate this selfless gesture.

7x04

1) Dany agrees to meet with Jon to see the dragonglass cave. This doesn’t really tell Jon much about who Dany is as a person as it could mean a lot of things: she’s just a nerd who likes looking at volcanic rock in caves, she’s got nothing better to do (actually pretty accurate), she’s genuinely curious about this substance found on her home island, she’s trusting - not requiring her Dothraki guard to accompany them and being alone with Jon - she’s got the hots for him (also pretty accurate), she’s open to the idea of accepting the Night King and Army of the Dead are real (also accurate). There’s nothing really negative Jon can assume about Dany by her agreeing to let him show her the caves. The most obvious things he could think are that she’s open, trusting, and curious.

Jon could assume Daenerys is attracted to him and that that’s the reason she agrees to go into a dark cave alone with him. But it’s not really Jon’s character to assume so highly of himself. PLUS - what’s stopping Jon from assuming Daenerys is trying to seduce him to get him to bend the knee? Again, he doesn’t know Dany. She’s young. She’s pretty. She’s single. What’s to stop her from trying to use her womanly charms to get the young Northern King who was supposed to be recently celibate (Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch) to bend the knee? If Jon tried actively seducing Daenerys, his plan could completely backfire - or just be utterly pointless - if she in turn was trying to seduce him. And if Jon *thought* of the idea of seducing Dany to get her to come over to his cause, he would have had to at least consider that Daenerys would think of the exact same plan to get Jon to bend the knee. But I’m going off on a tangent...

2) Daenerys tells Jon she would fight for the North IF he bent the knee. Now, I’ve seen a lot of Jonsa/anti-Dany blogs describe Jon’s look in this scene as “disappointed” and I see nothing wrong with that assessment. Dany gets Jon’s hopes up by saying “I will fight for you. I will fight for the North” - at this Jon looks like it’s Christmas. And then Dany drops the bomb “when you bend the knee.” Of course he’s disappointed. He thought he had convinced her of the real threat, the really important war, not her one with Cersei. And she does let him down. Yes, I think Jon is disappointed in this moment. What could this make him think of her? He could still think she’s entitled, for wanting ruling power over the North. He could think she’s shortsighted/stubborn for wanting to defeat Cersei first. He could also think she’s manipulative for getting his hopes up, stepping into his personal space, being close with him, using her soft bedroom voice, calling him a king. (and again, if Jon has thought of seducing Dany purely for gain and not because he genuinely likes her, he has to consider the possibility she’s doing it right back to him. One of her nicknames is “foreign whore” after all. And what do whores do? Seduce men for personal gain) If Jon’s feelings aren’t genuine, he’d be an idiot not to consider the possibility that Dany’s feelings aren’t genuine either.

Then Daenerys tells him, “Isn’t their survival more important than your pride.” Verbatim what he told Mance. The. Exact. Same. Words. While this could still make Jon think Dany is being shortsighted and entitled, he’s got to recognize the oddness of her word choice. It’s not a common phrase. It’s not a thing people just...say. The coincidence of her words have to freak Jon out a little bit, even if he didn’t like what she was saying. So it has to at least put him back in that mindset he was in with Stannis threatening to burn Mance. No, Dany hasn’t physically threatened him or his people. But she’s offering something he wants - protection - and in order to get it, he’d have to give her something she wants - loyalty. This has to at least a little bit, start making Jon mentally weigh the pros and cons of having Dany as his queen. He doesn’t want his people to end up like Mance’s people at Hardhome. That’s what he’s trying to avoid. So to avoid what happened to Mance’s people, he’s got to be considering not making Mance’s mistake. So there’s that also.

3) Their encounter in the caves ends and Tyrion and Varys deliver the bad news that Olenna has been murdered and Highgarden is sacked. Daenerys orders Jon and Davos to stay with them on the beach and then she contemplates flying to King’s Landing to burn down the Red Keep with Dragonfire. Jon looks a little exasperated at this, especially when she says “you will stay.” Again, this likely furthers his belief that Dany is entitled, used to getting her way. When she mentions burning down the Red Keep with the dragons, Jon could be thinking Daenerys is ruthless - but he wouldn’t be thinking she’s completely uncaring though because she did just tell him she would help him, if he bent the knee. There’s a very delicate line there she’s balancing on. And he wouldn’t be thinking Daenerys is mad like her father, because she takes no pleasure in this decision and it isn’t unprompted. Cersei attacked her ally. Daenerys wants to retaliate. It’s a natural reaction in war to want to retaliate against one’s enemies. Hell, it’s the entire reason why Jon nearly punched Ramsay’s face off - anger and retaliation for killing Rickon and raping Sansa. Cersei (her armies at least) captured/killed Dany’s allies. She wants to attack Cersei right back. It’s not madness.

Hearing Daenerys talk about wanting to fly to the Red Keep - Jon again, likely thinks Daenerys a bit ruthless. But she’s still not on a level with Cersei - Cersei has remained protected within the confines of the Red Keep, letting Euron and Jaime do her biding. But Daenerys wants to join the fray herself. Normal queens wouldn’t do that. “What kind of a queen am I if I’m not willing to risk my life to fight them?” Jon may not agree with Daenerys’ plan, but he likely respects her as a fellow fighter. This could be an attractive quality to Jon when he thinks about the Great War. It wouldn’t just be him alone out there facing the Night King as he faced Ramsay’s cavalry. He would possibly have her beside him. And that would be a comforting thought. Again, Daenerys may be ruthless, but she takes responsibility for herself and her people, just as Jon does. 

4) Daenerys asks Jon for advice. This is an incredibly telling moment between Jon and Daenerys. Jon means nothing to Dany. They have a very shaky alliance at this point at best. They’ve met in person all of three times. But Daenerys still asks Jon what he thinks she should do about the Cersei problem, over her own Hand. Jon begins to tell her “I would never presume...” but she still asks for his advice anyway. She wants him to tell her the truth.

For all those people who think Jon picks up on some kind of “secret language” people speak to Daenerys with - flattering her, telling her she’s special, painting her as a savior, blah blah blah blah blah - this move from Dany completely destroys all of that bullshit. Jon has offered Daenerys no praise at this point. The only thing he has told her that could be seen as even a neutral statement is “At the very least, you’re better than Cersei.” That’s not a compliment. He has not flattered her at all at this point. But she turns to him for advice anyway.

If Dany were wanting to be flattered and pandered to in this specific moment, the person she should turn to is Missandei - the slave girl she freed and saved from her masters. Missandei would likely have the most praise to lay on Dany and would tell her something to make her feel good in this moment. If that’s the way to Daenerys’ heart, then Jon is the person she would seek advice from the least. But she asks for his input. That move right there tells Jon she doesn’t want to be pandered to. She doesn’t want to be flattered. None of that shit works on her. He’s only told her the brutal truth at this point and that’s what she’s looking for. Jon doesn’t tell her she’s special or flatter her in this moment. He warns her what she would be seen as if she flew off to King’s Landing. For Daenerys to seek Jon’s advice and then take it to heart (she never attacks a civilian population), Jon has to be thinking that he and Daenerys are similar in that respect. She values the truth as much as he does.

Jon scoffs at Sansa when she says “You’re good at this you know. Ruling. You are, BUT you have to...” - Sansa giving Jon a “compliment” before she tries to tell him what she really thinks of him and his ruling style. Daenerys doesn’t want useless compliments either. She wants the truth. Even if that truth comes from someone who is virtually still a rival to her. Jon has to respect Dany for this. He may not agree with her thought process, but as one leader to another, he would respect this.

5) Daenerys leaves Dragonstone to attack the Lannisters who sacked Highgarden and he learns from Missandei that she used to be a slave whom Daenerys freed. This doesn’t necessarily tell Jon anything he didn’t already know. He’s kind of left in charge of the island - at least a few of the Dothraki are there to protect him and follow his commands as we saw on the beach scene with Theon. Tyrion is with Dany and Varys isn’t there on the beach with Jon when he meets Theon. Missandei doesn’t step in either, letting Jon have complete control of the situation. This is Daenerys putting a lot of trust in Jon. She puts her trust in him when she asks for his advice and then she puts even more trust in him by letting him have basically free reign of her island when she’s gone. If Jon really were Dany’s prisoner, she would take him to the mainland with her and keep him guarded while she fights the Lannisters. But she doesn’t do this. He’s left to keep mining dragonglass with his new Dothraki bros. The Dothraki are, again, a patriarchal society. Why would Dany leave some of her men with Jon, a king, a fighter, all the things Dothraki would respect in a khal, if she didn’t trust him? Jon has to see all of this. He may not completely agree with what Daenerys has left to do, but he would see how trusting she is of him. That, or he would think Daenerys doesn’t see him as much of a threat anyway and that she has complete control/the loyalty of her people. Likely, he’s thinking both.

7x05

1) Daenerys returns from the Loot Train Battle. While some in the fandom don’t think it very telling that Jon is waiting for Dany when she returns, I think it’s very telling. I mean, he’s out on a cliff, Dany’s other dragons are still on the island. He’s alone. He’s vulnerable. In the 7x05 commentary Dan Weiss says Dany is like 85% sure Drogon won’t eat Jon - meaning there’s a chance he still might. Yet Jon is there waiting for Dany anyway. He shows his bravery (or stupidity) and stays, pets Drogon (YOLO, I guess...? Or sorry, YOLT as Jon’s on his second life), and then he banters with Daenerys about the dragons being gorgeous beasts. Notice Jon smiles as he says “wasn’t the word I was thinking of but....” He’s comfortable enough around Dany to laugh and attempt a little banter. He’s just had a scare of his life - having a dragon rush him on a cliff - and he’s lived to tell about it. His adrenaline is going. This wouldn’t put him in a calculating and manipulative mindset. And again, even if he were trying to manipulate Dany, he wouldn’t tell her “No I’m not” when she asks “You’re not sure how you feel about that” - in reference to her battling the Lannisters. He’d say something like “You did what you had to do and I respect that,” to get on her good side. But he’s still butting heads with her. If Jon is trying to seduce Dany, he’s the worst seducer in the world.

2) Sometimes strength is terrible. Daenerys doesn’t use flowery words around Jon...or ever really. So he’s got to appreciate her honesty. He may not agree with her worldview on the surface, but he can’t deny the similarities between the two of them. Daenerys points this out to him: “How many men did your army kill taking Winterfell back from the Boltons?” Again, Jon may think Daenerys a bit foolish for thinking the Seven Kingdoms will be better off under her rule, but still, he can’t argue with her logic. It’s the same argument he used in order to justify taking back Winterfell. After all, who appointed Jon protector of the Free Folk and protector of the North from the White Walkers? No one. He promised the Free Folk safe passage south. He never said he would protect them after that; he only asked they help him when the Night King came. That’s it. Jon took it upon himself to be their warrior. Daenerys is doing the same thing with the Seven Kingdoms. If she’s foolish, then he’s foolish too.

3) Jorah returns. So far Jon has seen Daenerys interacting with Missandei, Tyrion, Varys, and her Dothraki. Aside from her friendship with Missandei, he hasn’t really seen anything other than the regal side of her. Then Jorah shows up. Shipper goggles aside (if Jon isn’t jealous of Dany and Jorah’s relationship), he at least is now privy to this softer side of her. Right after she calls the dragons her children and is a little vulnerable, she then reunites with Jorah and she’s got tears in her eyes. If Jon was thinking Daenerys is nothing but a cold-hearted, ruthless, entitled queen before, these interactions would have to change his mind and make him see there’s more to Daenerys than meets the eye. Jon knows who Jorah is, having served his father in the Night’s Watch. He knows Jorah was once wanted for selling people into slavery - yet Daenerys’ whole plight in Essos was about freeing slaves and Jorah is loyal to her. So Jon must be able to put it together that Jorah has changed - so much so that he’s even gained Daenerys’ love and affection (in whatever context). Jon has never seen Dany as emotional as when she reunites with Jorah. This, right after she’s told him “We both want to help people. We can only help them from a position of strength. Sometimes strength is terrible.” These interactions with Daenerys, her showing him her belief system, showing him they’re not so different, and her affection for Jorah, would make him see that there’s this softer side to her, a caring side.

4) The letter from Sansa. Jon tells Daenerys at the beginning of this conversation “I need to go home.” Daenerys, not put off by Jon’s anger, puts things back into perspective for him. “You say you don’t have enough men.” Jon’s being a little bit of a hothead here, reckless, possibly suicidal. He and Daenerys know he doesn’t have the men to face the army Jon’s described to her. If what he says is true, he’s as good as dead. And when Jon asks her “unless you’ll join us?” she doesn’t give him an automatic “no.” She gives him a very legitimate reason as to why she can’t YET. She’s not even talking about Jon bending the knee here. That’s all gone. Daenerys hasn’t mentioned Jon bending the knee since the last episode, before she rode off into battle. When Jon starts to pile on more evidence for her - even if it’s questionable evidence - Dany forgets this bending the knee nonsense. It doesn’t matter anymore. She does want to help Jon but she tells him the truth - she’s afraid of what would happen to her lands and people if she weren’t there to protect them from Cersei. Whatever Jon was thinking before, he now knows that Daenerys is not beyond reason and her heart is in the right place. There are just obstacles in the way, preventing her from helping him right away. She wouldn’t go along with such an idiot plan if her heart weren’t in the right place. She wants to help him. She’s willing to delay indefinitely her war with Cersei in order to do so. And he knows this now.

7x06

1) I’ve mentioned this before in THIS post but when Jon tells Tormund “She’ll only fight beside us if I bend the knee.” That’s not true anymore. Their mission beyond the Wall proves that. Jon hasn’t promised to bend the knee to Dany when he returns from the mission with the wight. Yet the whole point of the mission is to get Cersei to agree to a truce so Dany can come North without putting her people in the south at risk. Why would Jon think she won’t fight with them unless he bent the knee with this whole truce plan in place? At the very least, Jon’s just being forgetful here. At the most, he’s possibly already thinking (unnecessarily) that he’s going to bend the knee to Daenerys once he gets back from the mission.

Or, you know, it’s just a really really stupid and glaring error in the writing of this episode. Which is also entirely possible.

2) Jon thinks of Daenerys to come and help them. At this point, yes, she’s the only one who can help them when the entire army of the dead is after them. BUT, to even ask for her help, Jon has to be hopeful that Daenerys would come save them at all. And then she actually does. I’ve mentioned this before but I’ll repeat it again, Daenerys has never given Jon a reason not to trust her. He wanted the dragonglass, he got it. He wanted to figure out a way to make people believe him about the army of the dead, Tyrion thought of it and Dany didn’t stop the mission. He asked her to come save him and the fellowship of the wight. She saved them. She has done literally everything Jon has asked of her.

Of course, again, Jon could be thinking, “hey, maybe she likes me.” But if Daenerys is already doing what he’s asked of her, what would his motive be to further try to seduce her and get her into bed? He hasn’t slept with her yet or been terribly affectionate with her. But she’s done what he’s asked anyway. If he were seducing her, wouldn’t he want to keep dangling the carrot? In dog racing, you have the little motorized bunny for the dogs to chase. You don’t stop the bunny for the dogs in the middle of the race and let them play with it! You keep the bunny running until the finish line. So if Jon were trying to get Daenerys to fall in love with him so that she would do what he asked, wouldn’t he keep himself slightly distant, feeding her small bits of hope of a relationship, but holding out until the very end, when the Night King was defeated?

And if Daenerys asked Jon to sleep with her...he could give any number of excuses not to. “I was a man of the Night’s Watch and I’m a virgin, I want to wait until I’m married, I don’t want to dishonor you, we should be married first, I want you to meet my family first, etc.” Literally so many excuses that would make him seem even more honorable.

But I’m going on a tangent again...

3) Daenerys pledges to fight for Jon without requiring that he bend the knee FIRST. Again, Daenerys hasn’t mentioned Jon bend the knee in two episodes. Why? Because it’s no longer a requirement for her to come help him. She just needs her truce with Cersei to ensure her people in the south will be safe. That was established in 7x05. Dany coming to save him and pledging to help him - no strings attached - has to make Jon feel ridiculously grateful to her. And she just lost a lot. He now sees what she has to lose and she did lose. Yet she’s willing to risk the lives of her other two dragons, her two remaining “children” to continue to help Jon until the Night King is defeated. What else could Jon feel in this moment but immense gratitude? What else would he think of Daenerys other than she’s a generous and caring person who finally gets it. Jon would have no reason to think ill of Daenerys in this moment. He would have no reason not to trust her word in this moment. Again, as far as he has seen, she has done everything he’s asked. And now she is finally pledging to do the first thing he ever asked of her - help him defeat the Night King. He has no reason not to trust her AND no reason to bend the knee to her...other than that he thinks she’s better equipped to save/protect his people. Which she is.

7x07

1) Daenerys and Jon talk and she tells him for the second time that she can’t have children. He could think she’s mistaken and that she actually can get pregnant. He could think she’s telling the truth and that if he slept with her he’d be safe from getting her pregnant. He could think she does have feelings for him as it’s a fairly personal thing for her to divulge. If anything, he would be thinking about Daenerys’ softer side and that she does have things she cares about other than being a queen - she wants to be a mother. He could guess that she fears being like everyone else, being mediocre/ordinary, not making a difference in the world. He should think of her as strategic at least as she doesn’t want to jeopardize her people in the south and wants to ensure their safety first before going North.

2) Daenerys decides to sail with him versus flying on Drogon. The Emmy script tells us Jon wants to smile at this news. Now, if Jon were really manipulating Daenerys, is this something that would necessarily make him smile? If he felt it was going to lead to his having to sleep with her (as in he doesn’t want to and it’s going to be like a chore), he probably wouldn’t smile! You smile when you’re happy. If he didn’t want to sleep with her but now thought that he had to sleep with her because they were sailing together, though it’s part of his plan, he’d probably be feeling a lot of pressure - he’s got to preform well after all - he’d probably be feeling upset/sad/mad (some combination of the three) because he doesn’t want to sleep with her. He may feel slight relief that his master plan has *worked* and he’s going to be able to get her alone. But this wouldn’t make him so happy he has to hold back a smile. Jon isn’t some evil genius mastermind, like Baelish. He’s not mad like Aerys. He doesn’t take pleasure in other people’s pain, even if he thinks other’s suffering is necessary - planning to kill Mance for instance. He’s a guy with real feelings. If he felt obligated to sleep with Dany, it’s not going to make him happy at the prospect of it. He wouldn’t smile.

But Jon does smile...or tries not let his smile show. The only reason Jon would be smiling is because Daenerys agreed to his plan to sail together rather than flying by herself. And the reason her decision makes him smile is because he’s excited to be sailing with her. The prospect of them sailing together makes him happy. He’s not thinking about an obligation or a master plan he’s trying to put into place. He’s thinking about how the woman he’s slowly fallen for just agreed to stay close to him for the next month or so while they sail and he’ll get to spend more time with her.

And what Jorah said about it being more dangerous for Dany to travel with him on land, angry man with a crossbow nonsense...well, if Dany died on the way to Winterfell, Jon would be fucked. Her safety is paramount to him because otherwise, her armies and dragons go the fuck back to Essos. Why would they stay and fight for Jon when their queen is dead - due to his dipshit plan - when they don’t know him, don’t speak his language, haven’t seen him fight, haven’t seen his strength, and his own people won’t be very welcoming of them. If Dany dies, Jon loses his army. He has to see her safely to Winterfell since she’s not flying - which means sticking even more closely to her as he’s pretty much the best fighter around.

On a non-shipping level, Jon would think Dany’s agreeing to sail with them would mean she values their alliance, she values Jon’s opinion, and she wants to make a good impression on his people. Even if Jon isn’t in love with her - as a small portion of the fandom speculates - he would at least appreciate that. He would appreciate all the efforts Daenerys has made to 1) save his ass 2) save his people and 3) earn his people’s trust. Dany cares about how she’ll come across to the Northerners which means she cares about their voices, their thoughts, their opinions. And Jon would have to see that. Just as she values him as one of her vassal lords, she would value the rest of them. It’s what good queens do.

So regardless of whether Jon’s initial impression of Daenerys was bad not, his opinion of her would have had to change as she began making efforts toward an alliance and to helping him and his people.

Again, Jon likely thought of Dany as arrogant, entitled, and foolish when they first met. But through his interactions with her he saw that she’s not arrogant - she seeks advice from him when she doesn’t even know him well, meaning she’s sensible enough to know when to humble herself; she’s not entitled - she knows she needs to earn the Northerners trust which is why she’s finally agreed to come help in the war against the Night King; and she’s not foolish - she saw the real threat to the realm and she immediately answered his call to arms.

Once Daenerys pledges to Jon on the ship coming back from Eastwatch - really when she agreed to let the wight hunt mission happen in the first place - there’s no reason for Jon to “trick” or “plot against” Dany anymore, if he was plotting against her before that. Again, she has done everything he’s asked up to this point. She has never broken her word to him. It makes no sense for Jon to think that Daenerys would break her word on coming North to help them fight the Night King.

AND

On Jon pledging the North for Dany...

I’ve seen some people say he did it to “protect” Sansa...as if somehow he was making it okay for her to be named Queen while he’s gone and then the Northerners could rise up against Dany when they come to Winterfell...but that wouldn’t make sense. If Jon pledged the North to her and they rose up against her, it would put Jon’s people in even more danger because Daenerys would be well within her rights to execute any dissenters - namely Sansa.

There is really no reason for Jon to pledge the North for Dany unless he couldn’t actually really mean it. To do so, again, puts his people - his family - at great risk.

And if Daenerys has already promised to help Jon defeat the Night King and she’s done what she’s said she would do thus far, there’s no reason for Jon to bend the knee to Dany to get her to come North. She already has agreed to do so.

Worst Case Scenario - if Cersei didn’t agree to Dany’s truce, Dany would be forced to burn down the Red Keep to take King’s Landing quickly so she could become queen, ensure the safety of everyone in the south, and then march North - this would be a much shorter timeline then Jon deceiving Dany, them getting all the way to Winterfell, and then the Northerners raising up against Daenerys OR them getting all the way to Winterfell only to find out Cersei betrayed them and Dany leaving to deal with Cersei first, then come North again.

Jon bending the knee to Dany - whether or not he intends to betray her - was a much more risky move for Jon. Again, if things go to shit, there’s still the chance Dany would leave to deal with Cersei so her people in the south don’t suffer. why would Jon risk that? Risk that much more time being wasted not helping his people and not fighting the Night King?

The only reasons Jon pledged to Dany were because he truly believed her to be a fair ruler, the right ruler of his people, he believed in her...and he loves her (that’s not the only reason or the main reason, it’s just in addition to the others).

TL;DNR:

Political Jon is utter bullshit. Jon has no reason not to trust Dany. Jonsa isn’t happening. Everyone can suck it.

[masha-russia]

I'm sorry this is a little late, but I just read your write up of your GRRM Q/A. First of all, I wanted to thank you for it! It was lovely. I have a question: why do you think Martin consider Jon unloved by Ned? I never got that impression from the books. Do you think he just missed Jon being lumped in/it was lost in translation? (I just can't imagine why he would put Ned in on the same level as Tywin, Randall, and Balon, especially after all the sacrifices Ned made for Jon.)

Thank you :)

This is a good question. No, there was no error in the translation, and GRRM didn’t miss Jon’s name (Jon was mentioned directly after Sam, before Tyrion and Theon). As I’ve said in the post, this question caught my attention more than the others (because of the mention of Jon), and I locked my eyes on GRRM’s face to see his reaction. When he heard the question, he didn’t seem surprised or perplexed to hear the name Jon, he simply nodded and smiled, and said “happy families are boring”.

While it does seem unfair to put Eddard on the same level as Randyll, Balon and Tywin, the question was more centered on the sons than on the fathers, and how the sons dealt with their fathers’ rejection. 

And well, Jon didn’t have an exactly happy childhood, did he? He always felt he was an outsider in his family, that he did not belong in Winterfell - although he wished to. He was a bastard and treated as a bastard, and it hurt him a lot - his sense of worth, his self-esteem, his well-being. Jon never was and never will be a Stark, and he knows it. And the rejection haunts him:

He would be back in Winterfell with his brothers.Your half brothers, a voice inside reminded him. And Lady Stark, who will not welcome you. There was no place for him in Winterfell.

Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he'd heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror. He dared not go back to sleep.

"We're not friends," Jon said. He put a hand on Sam's broad shoulder. "We're brothers." 

And so they were, he thought to himself after Sam had taken his leave. Robb and Bran and Rickon were his father's sons, and he loved them still, yet Jon knew that he had never truly been one of them.

Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever?He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard's motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he'd lost.

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker.

Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir. It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell."

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he'd taken.

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place.

And Eddard is partly to blame for that. Lady Catelyn would have never loved Jon, but she was a woman, and had no power over his life. Eddard could have legitimized Jon, and raised him as Jon Stark (he could have removed him from the line of succession to please Catelyn, since Lords can decide and name their successors) - and Jon’s life would have been much easier.

And Eddard was cold ... There isn’t one single memory of affectionate moments between Jon and Eddard in their POV chapters. Eddard didn’t seem to be a warm person overall, but he was especially distant towards Jon. I am sure he loved him in a way, because Jon was Lyanna’s son and Eddard loved his little sister, but he didn’t express or show his love, and he loved the children of his own body more. Eddard didn’t give Jon the same attention and privileges he gave to his children, notably Robb. Jon and Robb were the same age, they were friends, but Jon could always see how differently they were both treated. For example Eddard was grooming Robb for command (as was expected for a first born son of course) but he didn’t educate Jon:

Lord Eddard had often made Robb part of his councils back at Winterfell.

Robb was part of the councils, not Jon. It wouldn’t have hurt anyone to teach Jon about politics even though he would never be Lord of Winterfell - Jon would have gained experience and could have advised Robb later in his life. Instead Jon was just excluded.

Eddard didn’t try to prevent Jon from joining the Night’s Watch either. He knew that it wasn’t a place for a young boy, but he let Catelyn had her way. And when Jon first discovered what the Wall was truly like he was very hurt:

Jon wondered if his father had known what the Wall would be like. He must have, he thought; that only made it hurt the worse.

Finally, when Cersei and Eddard have their famous conversation, Eddard mentions his many mistakes:

"I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine," Ned said.

And it strikes as odd that Eddard - who was a respected Lord and loved by his people - would think that, since there was nothing in the text about his bad decisions. I believe that these mistakes are all related to Lyanna, the Rebellion and Jon. Eddard knew Lyanna didn’t love Robert, yet he didn’t explain that to him or appeal to his father, and might have felt guilt over his inaction, knowing what resulted from it (Lyanna running away and the Rebellion). It could even be that Eddard knew that Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar and went with him willingly, but said nothing. And maybe he also wished he would have been a better father to Jon Snow.