#and i'll feel very silly about this whole debacle

[werewolf-cuddles]

So, still thinking through the whole gender thing. Gonna be honest, not that much closer to figuring it out than I was last night.

I've looked into a few different labels, trying to figure out if any of them are right for someone who identifies mostly but not entirely as male. I don't think I'd call myself non-binary, that label feels a little too strong for me.

Demiboy might be more appropriate, maybe? Though genderqueer might also work. I'm still not entirely sure, and part of me can't help but worry that as soon as I find a label, I'll realize it doesn't fit and make myself look foolish again.

[susiephone]

So glad to see a fellow Tally/Shay shipper in the tag. Their relationship is just so good. Its such a gigantic mess. I felt so seen with my messy, queer, neurodivergent teenage female friendships, even if I needed until a reread two years ago until I acknowledged this this feels extremely queer and that is okay because I am queer too. Until then, all the female friendships I read were always just harmonic and nice and only ever threatened by boys, not these codependent, jealous messes.

The idea to center a YA dystopia around two girls who are deep friends with each other and maybe in love but are pitted against each other by the dystopian system (read: patriarchy, read: beauty culture) again and again is just absolutely amazing. I mean, there is a more traditional love triangle too, and its even well written enough to not drag down the series, unlike in most YA dystopias, but its not the center. At least not for me. For me, Tally and Shay are.

I could go on about them because I have thoughts (see: all the fanart and fics I have either already published or wait to publish until the trailer for the movie comes out), but the ask is already pretty long

first of all - i'm so sorry, i saw this message and fully intended to reply later that day i was like "oh i'll get to this after dinner!"

anyway! i was really struck by HOW different the love triangle in uglies is compared to other YA (especially YA dystopia). like the fact that tally doesn't definitively end up with either of them, and that neither boy turns evil (or at least antagonistic), and that both guys were good for her in their own way. but i especially loved that they both took a backseat to her friendship with shay, since that was by far the most interesting relationship in the whole thing

i'm cautiously optimistic about the movie (assuming it even happens). i personally think it'd work better as a series, but, well, after the shadow and bone debacle, i'm weary to trust any streaming service to actually follow through. i'm a bit worried about how mainstream actors who are all gorgeous anyway will be able to play the characters, and how they'll handle stuff like the specials' body modifications without looking silly (obviously there has to be an element of uncanny valley there, but i do worry it could look corny if they don't have a very good makeup artist).

i'm also VERY worried they'll make both tally and shay white. my personal hc is that tally is white and shay is asian, but tally could be any ethnicity, and shay was imo pretty clearly a woman of color. though i wouldn't be surprised if the movie cuts the parts that indicate that the pretty committee's standards are super racist- i wouldn't be surprised if they cut the themes of self-harm, too. (though tbh i'm of two minds about how that was portrayed in the books; i see what they were going for, but i do agree with some criticism i've seen that it could've been handled better.) any YA adaptation is bound to have some of its edge taken out. like the hunger games movies were pretty damn edgy in some aspects, but they're downright sanitized compared to the books.

one thing's for sure. if a movie happens and if they portray the tally/shay relationship at all competently, there will be an influx of shippers. i can see the angsty lyrics edits now.

[dlamp-dictator]

So... Limbus Company sure is a thing, right?

...

...

...

Okay yeah, I'm just gonna' rip off this bandage will quick, because much like Tomodachi Game, this won't be leaving my head any time soon until I actually type out my thoughts and finally purge them from my mind. And with all the controversy stuff still rattling around the fanbase I figured I'd say my two cents and thing finally have these nagging thoughts leave me for... well, until I talk about other things.

In any case...

Short Version: While I've personally stepped away from the game and company, I'm not too hostile toward anyone still in it. This is a silly auto-battler phone game at the end of the day after all. Rabid niche fandom or no.

Long Version:

Where do I even begin?

To put it bluntly, I'm annoyed. Mostly because when the whole debacle over Molar Ishmael came to light I had just finished the entire season 2 pass and purchased the premium. I was locked in and was just about to write up my thouts of the series when Project Moon, the developers of the game, essentially exploded with controversy.

For those wanting a quick and dirty summary (bearing in mind this is with minimal research), the summer event of Limbus Company had some character designs that were, to put it mildly, not what certain aspects of the fandom expected or wanted, this lead to a big amount complaints, review bombs, and depending on the source some actual riots in South Korea. This outrage was also along with the controversial Uptie 4 update that was essentially a big shift in the soft level-cap, and after the previously mentioned riots Project Moon had fired one of their popular and beloved artists in a way that was probably very illegal according to some South Korean labor laws. After this legal faux pas a necromancer decided resurrect all the other skeletons that were still hiding in Project Moon's closet and essentially had them conga line out of it with all the dirty laundry that has been stinking up the company from behind.

I'm being hyperbolic about the necromancer, but several staff and contracted artists were risking NDA to speak out about mistreatment and lack of professionalism within the company. Keep in mind that a lot of misinformation has been strewn about and everything in that above paragraph, my joke about a necromancer aside, should have massive air quotes around it and be taken with a grain of salt.

My overall feelings are both disappointment and mild shrug. This isn't really anything new in terms of mismanagement corporate nonsense. Artists getting screwed over by corporations, misdirected fan outcry and borderline doxing over assumed slights, niche/small fandoms of an indie game turning rabid over something that goes against their expectations. I've been in a lot of fandoms and seen a lot of nonsense, this is nothing new. That said, like every other time this happens I tend to back away from the series until things either calm down or public apologies are made. Neither seems to have happened yet despite Project Moon's insistence on pretending things are back to normal with their continued pumping out of content.

For those wanting my earnest opinions, here's a few small points I think about in regards to this:

General Thoughts: In general, those still playing Limbus either because they don't know or care about the behind-the-scenes stuff are... fine. EA, Activision, Blizzard, and other companies don't exactly die due to them doing a lot shady and immoral acts going public. This is nothing new. That said, if Limbus Company and Project Moon go under due to all the protests and revenue losses then that's egg on the faces of those dumb enough to mindlessly consume. I'll simply say if Canto 5 isn't absolute gangbusters then a lot of people are going to look very stupid for being stubborn.

Content Creators: Because this is absolutely going to come up in certain discussions I'll say my piece here. In terms of content creators my above point is the same. This game is losing revenue and profit with the only saving grace being its next big content updating having a chance of being good enough to bring people back. It's gonna' take a hell of a lot of effort to keep the game afloat outside of an extremely dedicated niche fanbase and whales, and know that niche fanbases turn rabid fast if people take or don't take certain actions. Content Creators that haven't flipped to a different fandom are playing with fire, and they've got a good chance of being incinerated if this game truly dies.

"Boycott": For those even speaking the word "boycott" please understand that it is a known fact that Tumblr can't boycott shit. Ever. I'd recommend just stating you as an individual aren't going to be posting about Limbus for awhile and move to other fandoms. This site does not care about your moralism or virtue when the biggest complaint is that Tumblr is wonky about porn and adult content. Especially about a month or two after the controversy, you're either playing this game or you're not. Unless you're from South Korea and have boots on Ground Zero proper I wouldn't recommend screaming about boycotts unless you've got a better game with a better gacha system to crawl to. That said, everyone should play Arknights instead of Limbus Company for now.

With all that said, I'm still not completely going to jump ship. There are still some things that could bring me back to this game. These would be the following: :

Public Apology: A public apology or admittance of all the skeletons in the closet, controversies, and other mistakes recently made would go a long way in rebuilding goodwill with me. As much as I would like see to see a rehiring of fired artists I know some of those folks might had broken NDAs to speak out and professionally that wouldn't be a good look to ignore, so maybe a quiet and private restitution for those effected would be a good way of good PR.

Uptie 4 Fixes: Namely making Uptie 4 a more reasonable thing in terms or game resources and time by lowering the cost of thread needed would be nice. Not a thing that'd completely bring me back, but something nice to make it more tempting.

Transparency: Any form of public transparency on what's happening in Project Moon would be nice. A willingness to pull the veil a little and show that things aren't completely on the up and up either by admitting that their little incidents have caused major profit loss or that their firing of certain staff as a kneejerk reaction weren't smart moves on their part will be as close to an apology as a company can get while still saving face. I'd definitely be willing to come back something like that happened and they've learned their lesson.

Okay, that's it for now. Just needed to get that off my chest. I'll talk to you folks later. Hopefully on more positive things. Maybe even about Limbus Company. Who knows?

[helenthelibrarian]

Some festive fun with our ineffable husbands:)

The Whickber Street Shopkeepers’ and Traders’ Association had nearly come to blows over the Christmas lights.  Nina had had THINGS TO SAY about the Christmas lights: she looked pointedly at Mr Brown of Brown’s World of Carpets as she remarked frostily about the overabundance of sparkly lights fulsomely draping the carpet store’s shopfront, and the feeble forty watt bulb arrangement dangled precariously from the lamppost outside her coffee shop.  “Nobody buys bloody carpets at Christmas!” she shouted. “If I got a carpet for Christmas I’d roll it back up and shove it in - “

“Now, now”, said Mutt, the magic shop owner.  “Season of goodwill, and all that.”

“That’s all very well, my good lady”, Mr Brown said, in a wheedling tone. “My January sale is the highlight of the Whickber festive season. Surely you don’t begrudge a little spotlight on my top-of-the-range rugs?”

“Top of the range? They’re even more threadbare than your moustache.”

Mr Brown bristled.  “Personal remarks won’t win the argument, I think you’ll find.”

“No, but I’ll feel a whole lot better, you tweedy old coot!”

Mrs Sandwich cackled.  She didn’t want any twinkly festive attention drawn to her own place of business, but she and her ladies relied very heavily on Nina’s coffee at the end of a working night, and they never turned down the free mince pies the barista put their way, so she was very firmly on Team Nina.  Besides, Mr Brown bored her witless and this meeting was shaping up to be particularly tedious.  

“Mr Brown, just sort yer lights out n make sure our Nina gets her full share of the light-up snowmen n the blow-up polar bear, or - “ and here she dropped her voice and whispered in his ear, “I'll reveal the true identity of the Whickber Street Knicker Nicker.”

Mr Brown cleared his throat. “Aha, well, no problem about the festive inflatables, Nina.  Nine o’clock tomorrow morning alright with you?”

Nina gave a thin smile. “Splendid.  I’ll see you in the morning.”

Mr Fell sighed.  He hated meetings, but after the debacle of the bookshop ball, he felt obliged to host this one.  Most of the shopowners had had their memories, ahem, rearranged after the demons attacked his shop, so they were delighted to visit his fancy antiquarian bookseller business for - as far as they were concerned - the very first time; Maggie and Nina, however, were a different matter.  He had tried to miracle a little memory loss in both of them, but they were strangely resistant. Crowley had suggested there was something not quite right with them; were they occult? “No, surely not, my dear. We’d have certainly detected them as such.”

“Well, it’s bloody awkward every time I see them, angel. I’m sure they blame me.”

“You did trap them in the shop. And you’ve never attended that anger management course we talked about.”

Crowley had said he usually had no reason to get angry except when Aziraphale did something exceptionally silly, which was all the time.  There was very nearly a row.

Aziraphale let it pass, however. “It’s nearly Christmas, Crowley. Let’s not fall out.”

Crowley growled. “Alright, but you’re off my Christmas list.  I haven’t written to Satan yet.”

“Santa.”

“I know what I said, angel.”

“Will you stay for the meeting, dear?”

“Not even at gunpoint.  I’m off to the pub.  If there’s any demonic activity I’ll be straight over. To the airport.  You’re on your own with this one.”

Aziraphale had spent the afternoon before the meeting decorating a buffet table with candles, greenery, glasses and china.  “There: positively Instagrammable! Whatever that is”, he said to himself.  The buffet was laden with canapes and finger food, a few bottles of sherry (not the best sort; he might be generous but he wasn’t an idiot), and some Christmas crackers. He found a few Christmas LPs - Jim Reeves, Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, all daringly modern - and placed them by the gramophone, ready for the post-meeting jollification.

Aziraphale was chairing the meeting, so it was the quickest one they’d ever had.  The sooner they were all on the sherry, the better.  “Well, everyone, if we’re all agreed on the Christmas lights, shall we call this meeting to a close?”

A grateful chorus of oh yes, please, rose from the attendees.  Maggie got up, stretched her legs, and took Nina aside as they joined the queue for the buffet.  “There was no need to be quite so rude with Mr Brown, you know.”

“Hah, he deserved it. And anyway, I’m hangry. What’s on the buffet? Anything suitable?”

Maggie picked up a plate and napkin. “Hmm, pickled onions, salad, garlic bread…”

“Any mini sausage rolls?  I love mini sausage rolls.”

“Oh yes, lots. Mr Fell’s outdone himself on the comestibles.”

Nina was about to pick one up, but Maggie stopped her. “I hate to say this, but I don’t think we can eat these.”

“WHAT? I’m absolutely starving.  What’s the matter with them?”

Mr Fell, fussing with the cheese and pineapple on sticks arranged into the shape of a hedgehog, overheard this.  “Oh no, my dear. Whatever is the matter?”

Nina burst into tears, an unfortunate by-product of having not eaten since breakfast and a particularly trying apprentice barista. She wailed, “They’ve got meat in them, haven’t they?”

Mr Fell’s face sank. “Ah, I’m afraid they do.”

“Well then, I can’t have them. And it’s Christmas!  And I’m very tired!  And Maggie’s present won’t come before the big day now because the delivery company is rubbish, and I hate sprouts, and - “

Mr Fell took her arm. “My dear Nina. Leave it with me. Have a sherry.  Not a big one or you’ll be squiffy in no time.”

He rang Crowley, who answered with, “Absolutely not, angel.”

“But you’ve no idea what I was about to ask.”

“If it’s anything to do with the meeting, the answer’s no.”

“Crowley, do stop it.  It’s about Nina.”

“Oh god, is something occult happening? I knew she and that missus of hers were dodgy.”

“Nothing of the sort.  I just want you to run along to Gregg’s for something.”

Crowley laughed incredulously.  “You what? Have you ever been in a Gregg’s? You, angel?”

“No, but they do have something Nina needs.  Now, here’s the list…”

By the time Crowley returned with his parcel, Nina was ugly crying into her third sherry.  Maggie was trying to console her, and Aziraphale was trying to separate an increasingly oleaginous Mr Brown and a furious Mrs Sandwich over the blinis.

Crowley never ceased to marvel at the chaos humans so easily manufactured without the least assistance from himself. This party was shaping up to be quite the pandemonium he had always privately hoped for but not had the opportunity to, um, assist, while Aziraphale was around.  He would tease him about this later.  In the meantime, he sauntered over to Nina and handed her a Christmas present.

“From me and Mr Fell.  Happy Christmas, Nina.”

Nina sniffed and wiped her eyes on her sleeve. “What’s this? It’s warm.  Ew, it’s not a joke thing, is it?”

Maggie tutted and then smiled. “Just open it, darling.”

Nina did.  Inside the Gregg’s packet was a perfectly baked, golden, meat-free sausage roll.  It steamed gently among its wrappings, smelling heavenly.

“Oh”, she said. “Oh.” And burst into tears all over again.  

“Do eat it, my dear”, said Aziraphale. “You’ll feel a great deal better.”

Nina ate it, savouring every last mouthful.  The sausage roll worked its magic - warm, tasty, infinitely better than any meat-based sausage roll. She licked a finger and scooped up all the crumbs of pastry.  At last, she smiled beatifically.  “Thank you.  Best present I’ve ever had.”

Mr Fell squeezed Crowley’s arm. “I think it’s time to send everybody home, you know.”

“Ok, this one’s on me.” And Crowley moved his hand upwards, and clicked his fingers.  The guests suddenly felt it was time to be getting coats on and moving along. There were cries of “Oooh, would you look at the time?” “Quite enough sherry for me.”  “Splendid do, Mr Fell!” “Happy Christmas, everyone!”

Crowley said, “Nina. Maggie. Do come for lunch on Christmas Day.  I’ve worked out the perfect menu for you.”

They looked delighted. “We’d love to.  Thank you so much.  You’re absolute angels.”

When they’d gone home, slightly unsteadily, Crowley said, “I think I’ve worked out why they’re so hard to miracle. You can’t persuade them of anything.  They’re always so damned rational there’s no amount of hand-waving will work.”

“Have you, my dear?  Do you think they’re occult, after all?  It is indeed very hard to, er, manipulate them, and believe me, I have tried.  Not soft in the head at all.”

“I’m sure you have. I said you were just enough of a bastard to be worth knowing.  No, I know what it is.”

“Do go on.”

“It’s simple.  They’re vegans.”

[foibles-fables]

FIRST... hawk and thrush

O' COURSE [froths]

who is more likely to hurt the other? Aloy, no question. In fact, Aloy already has hurt her--personal read of the entire Forbidden West debacle is Talanah displacing that abandonment and hurt onto Some Guy (for a NUMBER of reasons, though I won't let this ask meme turn into a whole analysis of all That, stay tuned).

who is emotionally stronger? While Talanah is much more savvy with the emotions of others, they both have their own issues. Talanah's come out as anxiety and fear of abandonment, Aloy's come out as anger and withdrawal. To answer the question, though, I do think Talanah would be able to navigate Aloy's high-emotion moments much better than the inverse.

who is physically stronger? Aloy wins this one by virtue of the diversity of her strength. But have y'all seen Talanah's thighs

who is more likely to break a bone?  Aloy, simply because she's up-close and personal with danger more often. We'll throw out Talanah's absolutely insane gameplay AI for the purposes of this meme.

who knows best what to say to upset the other?  Talanah holds all of those particular weapons, but knows to never use them, and never wants to use them.

who is most likely to apologize first after an argument?  Talanah. Because of both The Trauma™ and the fact that Aloy is stubborn as a mule (though she'll eventually readily admit if she was wrong. Eventually.).

who treats whose wounds more often?  Again, Talanah treats Aloy's wounds a lot more often because Aloy's still out there getting wrecked on the reg.

who is in constant need of comfort?  Talanah asks for it much more openly and freely, but doles out a very fair share of it to Aloy as well. Even match.

who gets more jealous?  Aloy. Can't be easy being with a noble who could have her pick of pretty much anyone in the Sundom--especially when specific jealousy itself is a WHOLE new emotion to wrangle after what has, so far, been a very solitary life. Talanah handles this with grace, though, and doesn't let Aloy get shitty about it.

who’s most likely to walk out on the other?  lol, lmao, we thought we knew the answer to this one, didn't we. Well. Thanks HFW. Aloy, still, though. So far, leaving is just what she's done. Hard habit to break, especially as Feelings and Attachment (in a very intimate sense) grow scarier and scarier.

who will propose?  Aloy aloy aloy aloy aloy ALOY!! Aloy aloy alooyy. This is very personal to me, you see.

who has the most difficult parents? ...we're gonna ignore how fundamentally depressing this question is for them by pointing out the fact that GAIA 1) is a delight and 2) absolutely loves Talanah.

who initiates hand-holding when they’re out in public?  Talanah. Makes Aloy blush all the way to her big dumb ears.

who comes up for the other all the time?  Before things between them are even Actually Real, Aloy finds herself talking about Talanah way too much in unrelated conversations, and is very confused as to why it keeps happening.

who hogs the blankets?  Talanah. Aloy's like a furnace.

who gets sadder?  Sadder, specifically? Definitely Talanah. Aloy's Bad Emotions tend to be much more reactive than pressing inward.

who is better at cheering the other up? OOOOH tough one. I'm gonna say Aloy, here, because she can effortlessly cheer Talanah up just by existing. But like I mentioned earlier, Talanah is also very good at dragging Aloy out of a bad brain spiral.

who’s the one that playfully slaps the other all the time after they make silly jokes? Talanah. They're both pretty quippy, but Aloy's are always a little more unexpected.

who is more streetwise? If we're talking specifically streetwise, Talanah. She has the unique combination of noble education, lifetime living very much amongst others, and also fighting in a whole-ass rebellion. Survivalwise, though? Oh my god it's Aloy. I'll remind everyone of how Talanah thought the best way to approach a Clawstrider attack was to trap herself in a rock crevice and get brutally stabbed.

who is more wise? They're both wise in very different and complementary ways. I'll leave it there, because the whole of the answer is something I've wanted to explore with proper depth in fic for a while.

who’s the shyest?  I don't know if I'd call Aloy shy, but she's way more socially-reserved, even as the years go on. Talanah handles herself fantastically in social situations (noble upbringing, knows how to navigate these spaces) and thrives in it, even if it's still exhausting for her afterwards. Still, her social battery has a vastly larger capacity than Aloy's.

who boasts about the other more?  Milu, Amadis, and Itamen already know the very explicitly canon answer to this one. ;)

who sits on whose lap? The thought of Talanah sitting in Aloy's lap rots my brain to its pulp nearly constantly, thank youuuu

[tuiyla]

Blaine says I'm drunk AND I'm sorry. Not "I did it because I was drunk." What Kurt was most upset about wasn't the touching, it was canonically that Blaine wanted to have sex while he was drunk and in a car instead of their first time being special. It makes sense that Blaine brought up being drunk in his apology bc it's what Kurt called him out on.

Make no mistake, I'm not saying what he did was ok. It was really bad and he shouldn't have touched Kurt no matter whether or not Blaine was drunk. But there's a huge misconception around his apology where people think Blaine/the show is excusing his actions bc Blaine brought up being drunk, when actually there was a reason for that.

He also doesn't mock Kurt? Wtf? He just says "who cares where we are." In the whole ep he keeps telling Kurt that it's not silly or stupid to want a special first time. And in that actual scene he talks about wanting to be spontaneous. He doesn't mock Kurt at all.

also like you said, "not talked about enough" is so inaccurate. It's one of the most discussed topics and is the biggest reason why people hate Blaine.

Sorry for venting. You don't need to post this or answer if you don't want. I just hate the misconceptions that so many people have ab this ep.

Since I really do not have many eggs in this basket and have said all I can, I'll be closing this discussion here but you took the time to write all this down so I'll be publishing this as well just to cap it off.

I really think all perspectives are valid here, because it is an upsetting scene but ultimately it is Blaine being stupid for which he apologizes and is forgiven. Kurt's feelings are so, so valid here, so is his hurt, but he as a character ultimately forgave Blaine for all aspects of the debacle. It was very shitty of Blaine to do any of it and I do think there's a devaluing of Kurt's wants but it's still a mistake to do that, part of the mistake that's later forgiven.

Like I said to other anon, people will judge this episode by different standards and I think that's fair. Personally, I judge it all as one big mess lmao and the saving grace is just WSS itself (well, y'all know which parts I mean). It's a messy topic and I can see why it's controversial.

Thanks all for keeping it civil, I wasn't sure what to expect when this convo started but I think we managed to keep it chill. I have one more ask about this but that opens the topic up to a more general Glee one so that's why I'll still be answering that even though I'm kinda "closing" this one.