#and like. someone Has to die narratively at the end of pt 2 to fully realize those stakes

[jcbs-posting]

the worst thing about realizing you have a great narrative opportunity to kill off one of your characters in a meaningful way is trying to argue w yourself about it and, through this, only making it more narratively interesting likeglkjdlfkjf

‘god, not them, anyone but them’ -> the weight of the meta emotional loss matches the stakes

‘but they’re connected to the people around them, they’re an essential part of the story and other characters’ -> the weight of the in universe loss matches the stakes, and enforces the themes of loss and the violence of systemic institutions and how losing one person effects all of us

‘they’ll leave behind someone who loves them’ -> and that person will fight for their memory now, won’t they? that will effectively set up act 3, won’t it? avenging your love (who did everything to save you, who gave it all up so you could still be breathing, and it isn’t fair, it isn’t fair that they fought for you and gave up their own life so you could stand here, alone) is often a more effective motivator than avenging yourself.

‘this isn’t supposed to be a tragedy’ -> bestie babe YOU are the person who put a dozen people in a government torture facility what the fuck do u think you’re writing

like girl help me ghlkjblkjsf

[the-magnus-archives-wiki]

Red string & Spiders

The Web is obviously gonna be important in season 5 and ive been meaning to dig into some of it’s threads (hah) for a while. Now, I know about Web!Martin and I admit that it’s a possibility, but i dont personally see the narrative taking that route. 

I don’t know that all these connections are intentional manipulations either, but I’m just gonna work under the assumption that they are and see where it gets me. Somewhere behind the scenes, Annabelle and the Mother are playing five dimensional chess and laughing at all of us.

This ended up being a bit long (1.5k words, whoops!) so it’s going under a cut.

123: Web Development. 

“You would have to write out, and post, in full, a horrible event that had happened to you, or someone that you loved.“ This sounds an awful lot like Annabelle is collecting statements, possibly scouting victims and potential vectors through which she can influence the Institute? She starts doing this in early 2015 and that brings me to

16: Arachnophobia & 39: Infestation

Carlos Vittery's name is found in the Chelicerae website. His experience happened in early 2015 and he made his statement in April. Investigating his statement is what brings Martin into contact with Jane Prentiss and sets into motion a chain of events that saves everyone during the Infestation. ie, he ends up living at the archives and stashes the extra fire extinguishers and the corkscrew.

Of course, Prentiss is also forced to start the wormpocalypse early after Jon accidentally discovers it when killing a spider.

147: Weaver & 80: The Librarian

It’s that damn lighter. From 147: “I realise that addiction is one of the strongest vectors of control there is.“ Leitner wouldn’t have been left alone if Jon hadn’t gone for a smoke, or just vaped instead. (Daisy helpfully mentions that he smokes Silk cut brand at one point -.-)

Of course, the lighter was delivered alongside the web table and destroying it is also what directly lead Jon to meeting Leitner in the first place. idk if the goal here would’ve been to actually get Leitner killed or if that was just a side-effect of pushing Jon further along his journey?¨

121: Far Away

The Web sends Oliver Banks to feed Jon a statement and encourage him to go full avatar. It’s just very kind and helpful, huh?

130: Meat

It helpfully points toward using a body part as an anchor when entering the coffin. This whole mess gets Jon marked by both the Flesh and the Buried.

Hill Top Road, pt 1

There’s A Lot Too Unpack Here

So they’re originally using this place to ensnare fresh adults and filling them with spiders. I think it is a place of power and essentially a production facility for the hollow type of spider person that Trevor encounters in 56. These might very well be the “spider husks” that got Daisy sectioned in the first place. 

Then there’s the whole mess with Agnes. I still don’t feel like I fully understand what went down there. Let’s look at these two quotes:

“she had destroyed the place utterly. And yet she remained bound to it, tied to it in some vital way.” (Eugene Vanderstock, 139)

“It let the Mother of Puppets bind me to Agnes, interweave our existences at some… metaphysical level, as it had with Fielding and the house.” (Gertrude, 145)

So we have ties that bind between Fielding/Hill Top, Agnes and Gertrude. The way Eugene talks about it, seems that being bound to Hill Top wouldn’t prevent her from realising her destiny, but being bound to Gertrude did. And while waiting for Gertrude to die, doubt crept into her and made her unfit for their grand ritual.

I still don’t understand why the uprooting of the tree at Hill Top is what spurred Agnes to finally end it though. It seems like that might’ve broken the bond between her and that place, which you’d think is a good thing? idk, maybe we’re not done with Agnes yet, or I’m just overthinking it.

Hill Top Road, pt 2

Season 5 babey!

“I can’t say much about exactly what happened within the walls of that house, but it seems the fight scarred the place in a way far deeper than simple fire. A scar in reality, that I believe has since been compounded by the interferences of other powers.” (Eugene, 139)

“There is something wrong with Hill Top Road. You know it as well as I do. Some strange scar on reality at the center of - whatever it is that the Spider is spinning.” (Helen, 146)

First, idk if it’s anything but this kinda reminds me of how Jon is marked by every fear. 

Second, episode 114. This is the episode I keep coming back to when thinking about Hill Top Road cause what the heck is up with this:

“I went to clean that house on April the 23rd 2009 which, according to all of you, is tomorrow. But it can’t be. That was two weeks ago. I’ve tried to talk to my friends about it. Those of my friends I can find, but they seem distant, like they don’t really know me. Everything is just... wrong. I can’t find my favourite coffee shop. And I don’t know who you people are.“

This whole episode reeks of alternate universe and I’m just ??? Additionally, the lady talks about the tree in the backyard, but it was uprooted in 2006, so even more AU vibes. Of course, it could be mental manipulation, someone altering her memories, but that seems like a weird red herring that Jon doesn’t even pursue. 

Alternatively, we’ve seen NotThem rewrite reality around a person and at this time the NotThem was bound to the Web table. I don’t think that’s anything, particularly given that the table was destroyed, but it’s a thought. (And NotSasha was very recently released back into the world so, hmm)

Ultimately I feel like the lady in 114 may have been a kind of experiment? A trial run to see exactly how they could harness this scar in reality, or to see if they needed to exacerbate it further? Whatever it is, I’m certain it’s gonna be Important™ in season 5.

81: A Guest for Mr. Spider

I don’t think baby-Jon was necessarily targeted beyond being a convenient victim. Him walking away from Mr Spider alive though, that may have made him interesting. I wonder if the Web being the first to mark him carries special significance and that’s maybe why it’s been assisting him? Its highly speculative but the Web did also mark Gertrude and it sounds like it may have been her first mark too. (Assuming the cat thing to be a joke)

Maybe it’s trying to use this to hijack Elias’ ritual somehow? Or to do a second ritual? Or the order of the marks has no significance and all it wanted Jon for was the Mass Ritual?

110: Creature Feature & 136: The Puppeteer

I feel like I know the least about these two. I don’t know to what extent they’re really connected but Neil Lagorio and the film angle seems like a big thing, and Annabelle’s presence makes me think it’s part of something bigger.

So Lagorio is supposed to be creating a spider animatronic but is actually housebound (you could even say homestuck). Annabelle shows up at his place and spends 5 months doing something before he dies. As news of his death break, a big spider monster kidnaps ~100 actors. It doesn’t feel like a big leap to say that he probably created (or was used to create) some sort of spider in the end.

idk what the end goal here is though, why did Annabelle send Lagorio’s original cuts to the Institute? Why is one body a year washing up on a beach? Are they just using them to lay eggs in, or as food? Just killing people isn’t very spider-y but I guess everyone needs to eat?

This whole thing is giving me ritual vibes but I don’t think that’s it? At least not your standard ritual.

Elias & 160

I feel like the Web has definitely helped us get to 160 but I don’t think Elias is directly working with it. They just seem to share the completion of the Mass Ritual as a goal. (Or maybe they are working together and Elias is getting played somehow, that’d be nice.)

Annabelle straight up says “Maybe I’ve occasionally been nudging something here and there to keep you safe, to keep everything on track” and she directly calls out his compulsion to read statements, which Elias’ ultimately uses to set it off. I feel like, if she wanted to stop it, she would’ve just found some way to kill Jon.

I don’t know if the final goal was just to piggyback on Elias’ ritual though, that feels a bit too simple, especially since Hill Top Road hasn’t been resolved. There’s probably some further, sinister plot at play that just needed the fearpocalpyse to be a thing. I don’t know what it is, but it’s gonna involve a big spider and Hill Top Road.

[fortunatelylori]

"Everyone who's crossed her she's found a way to murder." I can definitely see this going through Jon's mind if Sansa is kidnapped. Sansa and Arya were used as baragining chips in S1 for Robb but he chose not to go to KL. Also, when Jon found out "they" were being held there he initially was going to go but was talked out of it and chose to honor his vows. I think this will come back too. Conflict of the heart. "You'd think of little else if you had too." (tbc...)

I think Jon will be consumed by this at this pt. So to make the stakes higher I think both the WW and Sansa getting kidnapped (if this does happen) will happen simultaneously. While I think Sansa and Cersei will have another showdown and Sansa being in KL against her will check so many boxes I can’t just can’t figure out why. Why kidnap and not just murder? Why would she think Jon would come when Robb didn’t? Could LF might have told her something about their relationship?

Also, if both Cersei and the WW happen at the same time then both of them will be right as far as who to be concerned about. How do you see this plot unfold? What will Jon’s conflict be at this point? What will he decide? What role will Dany play in this? I would love your thoughts on this. Thank you!

Hey, nonnie!

I have to say … this kidnapping plot is slowly taking over my life. :))))) I’ve been thinking about it a lot actually. And while the more time passes, the more I’m convinced it will happen, the details of it are still a little fuzzy for me. 

So I guess I could start by saying why a kidnapping of Sansa by Cersei makes sense and what story boxes it would tick if it were to happen. After all, you don’t make a plot choice if it doesn’t help you achieve certain goals both thematically and in terms of story progression: 

1. It would bring Sansa and Cersei face to face again: this is VERY important for a number of reasons. Sansa was Cersei’s “little dove”, the girl she attempted to mold to her will but also despised because she saw her as being weak and naive. Their relationship is rife for dramatic exploration and I don’t know any writer worth his salt that wouldn’t want to tap into that, particularly now that Sansa has grown and developed and they could flip the dynamic on its head, showing what Sansa has learned from all of her tormentors, Cersei included. This is also important because Sansa needs to go back to her: “If I am ever queen, I will make them love me” mentality. Right now she’s vacillating and the question of her admiring Cersei hangs in the air, as per Jon’s observation. The simplest way for Sansa to fully reject Cersei’s worldview is by being faced with her once again, and choosing to the the Queen that people love, not the Queen that people fear. It’s kind of a play on being faced with who you might become if you choose one road instead of another, sort of thing.  

2. The Younger, More Beautiful Queen: this prophecy has tormented Cersei her entire life and it’s bound to conclude in its final act. If Sansa is the younger, more beautiful queen that will cast Cersei down and take all that she holds dear, it makes sense that she would be present for Cersei’s demise, whatever that might be. I say present because while Sansa was involved for most of Cersei’s tragedies, she was never the party responsible, she inadvertently found herself involved and I hope the pattern continues because I like the idea of prophecies not being played straight and that Cersei herself is ultimately responsible for her own downfall. 

3. Sansa is the princess in the tower with no prince to save her: for all the complaining that people do that Sansa can’t do anything for herself and she always needs saving, the sad fact of the matter is Sansa has never truly been saved by anyone. As she herself puts it to LF: She’s taken from monsters that murdered her family and given to other monsters that murdered her family. Her “rescues” are simply an exacerbation of her confinement. No one saves her. The one that comes closest is Theon but it’s Sansa that pushes him to that point and thematically speaking this action is linked more to Theon regaining his identity that Sansa Stark being saved. Also, her reunion with Jon did not truly bring liberation because she was still stuck with LF and also her trauma has made her close herself off and put herself in a sort of emotional cage. 

As you mentioned, Robb actually refuses to risk the ire of his men to go and try to save Sansa so she’s never truly a priority for someone, nor is she the goal, as the princess in the tower trope lays out. So to finally see someone make Sansa their priority and come to rescue her, despite all other consideration, would be a fulfilling arc. Particularly since Sansa keeps saying that no one can protect her. People have taken this to mean that Sansa doesn’t want protection because she can take care of herself. I don’t think that’s it at all. Sophie Turner said that when Sansa reunites with Jon, it’s the first moment of happiness Sansa has felt in years because she’s finally with someone who will take care of her and look after her. So I think Sansa is still looking for that prince to protect her and save her. She just doesn’t believe that exists anymore. So maybe it’s time she be proven wrong. 

4. Jon has a choice to make: Jon has been teased with a choice between love and duty since season 1 and he’s always chosen duty. But there were always extenuating circumstances to his choice. When he wanted to join Robb’s campaign, Joer Mormont pointed out that fighting the WW was more important on the grand scheme of things. Also Jon, at the time, was still the outcast, bastard of Winterfell, looking to forge his new identity. When he chose the NW over Ygritte, he had already made up his mind that he was a brother of the NW and that’s where his life was (he tells Ygritte: I have to go home now) and also justified by the fact that Ygritte violent tendencies pushed him away in any case.  However, in the end the loyalty that Jon showed to the NW was betrayed when he was killed by the very people who called themselves his brothers. When he came back from the dead, he was a man without a purpose or a plan (a weird thing for Jon Snow). It was Sansa that gave that to him, pushed him back into action so it would be easy to assume that whatever determination Jon might have now to fight the WW, protect the North and whatever else is inextricably linked to her. So what happens if she’s in danger? Will Jon’s choice between love and duty be as easy to make as it was in the past? I’d argue no. Because Sansa is not only his love, but his duty as well. He’s sworn to protect her time and time again and her safety and well being are paramount to him. So this time we’re going to watch Jon choose love and what a sight that will be!  

5. Tension must be added to the Jon/D*ny dynamic: And the parentage reveal is not enough. Because D*ny finding out Jon is a rival for the throne she’s been dreaming about since season 1 is a political matter. Her seeing him lose his mind over the possibility of Cersei hurting Sansa is a deeply personal one. I always found it interesting that D*ny wasn’t there to witness Jon’s interaction with Theon on the beach and see his reaction when Theon brought up Sansa. But I’m willing to bet good money she’ll have a front row seat to Jon Snow going berserk because “his sister” is in danger. It will probably be the last nail in the coffin for the already doomed Jon/D*ny alliance. Also, at some point, Jon is going to ride Rhaegar, I’m almost 100% sure of that. No way the writers are passing up the opportunity to have their number 1 hero mount a dragon or have this Dance of Dragons 2.0 end without a Jon/D*ny showdown on dragon back. So what better time for Jon to steal Rhaegal than when he needs to get to KL really, really fast?

6. Jaime and Cersei need to meet again: For one I believe that Jaime is the younger brother who will choke Cersei to death. For two, Cersei’s storyline is so marked by wildfire that it would be weird not to have the man most traumatized by wildfire be there to stop her from using it (which I believe will be the reason why he ends up killing her, paralleling his killing of the Mad King). Jaime and Cersei’s relationship is so toxic and tragic that it needs to end in the same vein, and “I don’t believe you” and a quick exist North ain’t gonna cut it. We know Jaime is going North to join the fight against the WW so the kidnapping plot might bring him back to KL, of his own accord or perhaps as Jon’s hostage. (he’s going to need some kind of leverage against Cersei, right? Who better than the only person left in the world Cersei actually cares about?)

7. The feelings reveal needs to happen somehow: At some point Jon and Sansa will need to confess their love for each other. So … what better time in terms of full emotional impact than after they’ve been separated and they thought they’d die/never see each other again? 

8. The writers need to connect the Winterfell/WW plot to the King’s Landing plot: I mean what is Cersei going to do for at least 3 episodes? Walk around the Red Keep counting the villages she’s taken back from D*ny with the help of the Golden Company? I mean, that would be the smart thing to do. Why march your armies into the North, in the dead of winter, with a zombie apocalypse underfoot? But then again, if characters acted smart and rational all the time, we’d have much more boring plot lines, wouldn’t we? The kidnapping of Sansa can bring the two narrative threads together. 

So both in terms of plot expediency as well as arc completion, the kidnapping plot neatly solves all sorts of issues as well as add drama and the all important cliff hangers GOT loves. 

As for how it will unfold … I think what we’re truly missing in order to see the full picture is the: Why? Why does Cersei kidnap Sansa at this juncture in the story? She could have already done it in season 7, when Jon was away on Dragonstone. It would have been a hell of a lot easier to do than now, during the Long Night, with dragons circling Winterfell and huge armies fighting zombies. Unfortunately, I don’t have a clear answer to this. Something needs to happen … some unforeseen plot development that convinces Cersei to send her men to capture Sansa. What that might be, I’m not sure. 

But it will probably also be the answer to your question about why kidnap Sansa and not just murder her. In addition to that, one other reason why Cersei wouldn’t just murder Sansa is because of the way that Cersei gets her revenge. If we look at her revenge against Septa Ornella and Ellaria Sand, we can see that Cersei is not content to only murder her enemies, she wants to dish out the same amount and type of torment that was inflicted on her by the parties responsible. I imagine she will want to do the same thing to Sansa. 

Could this happen simultaneously with the WW attack? Again, I don’t know. Feels like a lot to juggle but it could … Maybe the kidnapping happens during the WW final battle and Jon going to KL is the start of the Dance of Dragons part of the story line? Maybe Jon steals Rhaegal to go rescue Sansa and D*ny pursues him on Drogon? Just ideas at this point …

One theory I do have is that Cersei need not attack Winterfell to get Sansa. After all, Cersei did promise to help against the WW. That would mean that the Winterfell gang, at least in theory, will be waiting for her tropes to arrive. Any day now … Almost there … There they are! They show up, Winterfell opens their gates and boom, somewhere during the night, Euron (it would need to be Euron, wouldn’t it? he’s the only one crazy enough to attempt it particularly if Cersei commits to marrying him) and his merry men abduct Sansa. Now imagine the fall out from that decision, the guilt that Jon would feel that he allowed them to walk through the gates, the angst, the torment! That would be great! So? In his desperation, he steals Rhaegal (and possibly Jaime) and goes to KL. The reason why I’m so attached to Jon stealing Rhaegal at this juncture is that atop a dragon, Jon has more of a chance of getting out there alive with Sansa, than if he were to travel by boat. I mean he needs to take precautions, despite whatever Cersei might say/promise. He’s not a moron. 

As for what happens in KL,it’s anyone’s guess at this point because again we must return to that pesky: why. Although I have to say, that whatever might happen, it won’t be that pretty for Sansa. I don’t see any way it could be. In the end, she will triumph but it will be an angst riddled couple of weeks for all of us.  

If anyone has scenarios to share here, please feel free. 

Thank you for the ask, nonnie!