#and the reason ashton hasn't been brought up is simply because ashton didn't play a huge role in the ep 95 talk dkfjsdf

[pocketgalaxies]

Hello! I hope I’m not bothering you. I just feel confused about what I keep missing in episode 63, and I’m wondering what characterization or moments of detail I’m missing out on about Orym purposely enabling Delilah’s revival, or letting it happen? I had totally misremembered and thought that Hunger of the Shadow killed Bor’dor and so Orym nodding was a “We need to do this” that had multiple interpretations and Consequences. I had always thought it was a really ill-timed “He needs to die” that happened before Laudna used Hunger to kill Bor’dor

but after rewatching the whole fight, I realized Hunger of the Shadow only knocked Bor’Dor unconscious. The failed death saves came from Prism’s punch and Wither and Bloom. And it turned out Orym’s nodding thing came after Hunger of the Shadow and Delilah’s heart started beating again and not before like I had thought, so now idk what it is that Orym did that lead to Delilah’s return? I keep rewatching the fight trying to figure it out but I’m not seeing it 😭 Liam on 4sd and Beacon discord said that after Orym clocked that Delilah was probably back he thought that Delilah would be helpful against the Vanguard (this aged well :’D), but Orym’s suspicion that Delilah returned happened as Laudna was killing Bor’Dor and got “30% scarier,” not before Laudna decision to kill Bor’Dor or Hunger of the Shadow. I’m trying just to figure out how he could have “let” the revival happen before the fact? Because it’s a common topic of discussion among critters but now idk what it’s referencing?

I guess an argument could be made that nobody stopped Laudna before she did hunger of the shadow, but again I don’t think anybody was thinking of Delilah? My personal interpretation was that on Laudna’s turn in initiative, the party simply saw Laudna attacking Bor’dor and didn’t discourage it because guy had just betrayed them and dealt 10d4 acid damage to everyone— and not because they saw any strategic benefit in Laudna attacking. When the purple eyes in the Form of Dread appeared, I had just thought that was a manifestation of Laudna’s hurt at being betrayed again and tying it to Delilah (but that’s just my interpretation). Taliesin definitely clocked that eye color, look at his face 😂 But I can’t see how the characters knew beforehand that Laudna was specifically intending to make a move that would revive Delilah? And that this was a move that was strategic to enable? And Orym didn’t even suspect Delilah until Bor’Dor’s death with wither and bloom.

Are the purple eyes why critters keep bringing up Orym? But then that has nothing to do with the Nod that is moreso getting brought up. And wouldn’t Ashton get equal mention before Ep95 aired because they both didn’t stop Laudna on her turn?

The timeline beats I’m getting are that it’s Laudna’s turn in initiative after she counterspells Bor’dor’s attempted polymorph. On her turn, she does Form of Dread wit the purple eyes then casts Hunger of the Shadow, dealing damage and knocking Bor’Dor unconscious. Then she feels Delilah reawaken within her through the heart beat.

It’s now Prism’s turn and she punches Bor’Dor, autocritting and taking off 2 death saves.

Laudna’s form has been darkening and at this point, the mourning veil appears over Laudna. Liam notes that Orym has been watching, silent. Ashton also sees all of this and drops their rage. When it’s Laudna’s choice whether to end Bor’dor, Orym nods. Laudna is barely present and is cycling through her own trauma and memories at the moment, then she makes her decision and uses Wither and Bloom to kill Bor’Dor. Familiar purple flame and green light that Ashton and Orym recognize manifests as flowers bloom and Bor’Dor form cracks and withers.

So Delilah had already been revived before Prism punched Bor’dor and Laudna dealt the last death save, so I guess I just feel confused about what is Orym’s connection to Laudna bringing back Delilah?

The nod was endorsement to kill Bor’Dor. At that point that’s what the conversation was about, whether or not Laudna was gonna kill him. Delilah had already been revived

Like yeah Orym saw some potential advantage with Delilah once he realized what had happened, but he didn’t seem to cause any of it? But it’s a point constantly brought up, so I’m feeling confused about how it happened.

Sorry this got long. I tend to ramble

hi anon, thank you for being respectful and curious in this message, instead of coming at my throat. i appreciate it more than you know! i will do my best to explain this perspective

in the time between laudna's resurrection and bor'dor's death, the presence of delilah was questionable at best. they had "sundered" her in laudna's mind palace whitestone, pike seemed to think delilah was no longer present, and delilah was completely quiet for that stretch of time. i think a lot of people were waiting for the other shoe to drop, but there was also the idea that maybe she really was gone, or at least significantly weakened.

chronologically, here's what happened during that fight. bor'dor reveals his true alliances and turns on the party. per liam's statements in 4SDx14, orym decides that bor'dor cannot be allowed to live, because of the danger that any ruby vanguard member poses to the general public and other innocent lives. laudna says this:

she casts hunger of the shadow. prism does a bit more damage. then, as bor'dor falls:

the "faint shimmer of a mourning veil" explicitly mirrors the pre-resurrection form of dread and definitively reflects delilah, suggesting that delilah's influence is visibly returning. then, liam says this:

("you just see this" is where he nods.) per liam's statements in 4SDx14, orym realizes that laudna has opened the door again for delilah to reemerge, but he also thinks, "yeah, we're gonna need that." (liam's words, not mine.)

laudna casts wither and bloom for the hdywtdt, with the following description:

please draw your attention to the statement that the world has broken her and that she was trying to keep this dormant until she couldn't anymore. she is barely there, she has lost herself. more on this later.

with this information, it's inaccurate to say that orym caused delilah to come back. she already came back, as we can see with the chronology above. i will admit that i didn't realize the nod came after the veil, and i think that's an important thing to clarify. i will also say that most of us never fucking said that he caused delilah to come back in the first place, but i digress

this is a total sidebar but i think there's also an important distinction to make between orym deciding bor'dor needs to die because he poses a danger to the civilians around him (again, per liam's statements in 4SDx14), vs. laudna deciding bor'dor needs to die because he betrayed her. one is calculated and intentional with an understanding of the big picture and its consequences. the other is deeply personal and impulsive and blind to the consequences. this could be a separate post but suffice to say i think that when you're approving of your friend killing someone, it matters why they are killing them, and it matters if their "why" is different from your "why" because it will affect them differently than it would've affected you after committing the act. because of this, it could be argued that letting laudna kill bor'dor negatively affected her psyche more than if the roles were switched and laudna let orym do it, because orym could see the bigger picture and laudna was simply coming from a place of pain. it was a huge character moment from orym, i think it's fascinating, and i don't think it was wrong from a storytelling perspective even if it could be argued either way from a morality perspective. so i'll just leave that there.

anyway, the reason this is all relevant, is because it is a reflection of what orym says in ep 95, which is "you're right. why do i need the help of some dark force?" intended to suggest that she shouldn't cast judgment upon him for using a dark weapon when she uses the dark magic given to her by delilah.

what many people have tried to bring up about this statement is the issue of choice and agency. orym picked up otohan's blade and decided it would be meaningful to him, and also empowering from a mechanical standpoint, to wield it. which is fine, for his character story! laudna might not like it, and fearne might not like it, but it's something he did, and it's interesting! but the sticking point is that such a level of intention and purpose is simply not present in laudna's story. it could be argued endlessly how much of every laudna decision is actually laudna vs. how much of it is delilah, but regardless of what you think, it is plainly true that, in the high stakes and game-changing choices, at least some part of it is always delilah.

and per marisha's description above, laudna was trying to keep that dormant within her for a long time. it wasn't until bor'dor that it was unleashed in full. and in that moment, delilah's process of overtaking laudna completely was kickstarted. that isn't to say that delilah would've never come back if bor'dor didn't die the way he did, but it is to say that it happened earlier than it otherwise would have, and it's been a slippery slope of dwindling agency and psychological power-hungry manipulation ever since then.

the point of the argument is that it doesn't feel fair when laudna says "how dare you use that dark blade," for orym to throw it back at her and say "the same way you dare to use delilah." because orym wanted to use the blade for its power no matter the cost, and orym thinks delilah is useful for those same reasons, so for him perhaps they can be equated. but when delilah came back in ep 63, laudna didn't want her to. it broke her and it happened in a moment of terrible pain and anguish after weeks of trying to keep her at bay, and she hasn't been able to stop it ever since. and she's been getting mixed messages from orym and everyone else the entire time about whether she would be more useful if she just gave in entirely. but nobody seems to like what she turns into when she gives in even a little bit. nobody seems to understand that they are gravely underestimating how corrupt and dangerous laudna will get if they let this go unchecked for the sake of gathering more power to take down ludinus.

at the end of the day we're just people who think laudna is an interesting character with a vastly complicated psyche that dictates why she made a choice like this, and we were pointing out something that orym said that felt unfair to those nuances. in response, people have been painting us out to be demonic and illiterate misogynists who are stealing away laudna's agency and blaming her entire warlock pact on orym who's just doing what's right. forget being unfair to laudna, that's unfair to the equally interesting arc that liam is creating with orym, of an ambiguously levelheaded, hypervigilant, war- and grief-driven soldier. we should all know by now that liam is not interested in making infallible characters, but you wouldn't know it based on the amount of backlash being thrown at us for pointing out that hey, maybe that one thing orym said was flawed.

anon, if you've made it this far, please continue to be kind and ask questions of others to understand their perspectives. i appreciate you.