#anti tlou2

[palipunk]

given that Google is pretty unreliable nowadays, can you explain why TLOU is anti-Palestine? I remember the games being very insularlly focused on the USA. (I don't know shit about anything, lol)

Neil Druckmann was the creative director and co-writer of the Last of Us part 2 and is the current co-president of Naughty Dog. He wrote and produced the TV show as well and his hatred towards Palestinians was a point of inspiration with the story.

He was born in Israel and was raised in a Israeli settlement. He recounts that the killing of two Israeli occupation soldiers by Palestinians (within the occupied West Bank I might add!) is what sparked a lot of his hatred towards Palestinians. It’s a whole sob story about how he wanted vengeance on Palestinians and how he later “regretted the impulses”. It’s not something you can really ignore in the show or games because it is baked into the writing.

Here’s the vice article that talks about the Israeli politics in the games:

And I really recommend this one by @akajustmerry about the show and pinkwashing:

[aeirithgainsborough]

the addition of joel’s attempted suicide and him telling ellie it wasn’t time that had healed his wounds makes part 2 all the more rotten btw. in the context of just part 1 it added to the theme that runs through the game that you have to find something to hold onto and make life better even when everything seems dire. it’s extremely topical (as joel said about the puns) for ellie. joel knows she’s going through the same thing and that’s partly why he told her. it was also his way of expressing to her he loved her and she expresses that back when she says ‘im glad it didn’t work out’. if we just think about part 1, it’s a scene that fits well with the source material and adds something. later when joel saves ellie and then lies, we can really easily track why he saved her and then lied. yes for him cus he loves her but mostly it was because he’s been there and he knows how it feels to struggle with the guilt you survived and how easy it is to slip into the feeling of everything being pointless and wanting to end it all cus what’s the point in carrying on. he sees it in ellie. that’s why he tells her the story and that’s why he saves her. because it got better for him. it may have taken 20 years but it got better. he found what he needed to make life worth living and he wants ellie to have that too. he knows it’s out there for her, especially if they can go somewhere like jackson and she can watch movies and learn guitar and just be a kid.

but when we think about part 2, this addition just feels mean. they’ve added to joel’s trauma, they’ve deepened it. he was so lost and broken when sarah died that he wanted to end it all. life felt so pointless to him. and despite how bad it was to lose a kid, despite how scary it was for him to open himself up to ellie, to open that door into parenthood again, despite how painful it was and the memories it dredged up, he did ultimately choose to open that door. and there’s such cruelty in adding that depth, knowing they are gonna cause him that pain again! that they are gonna take a kid away from him again. that he opened that door and he found something that made life worth living, and they are going to crush him again with it. it’s cruel to ellie too. first of all bcus she’s deeply depressed and suicidal because of all she’s been through and everyone she’s lost and the guilt that they died when she didn’t (she never says so explicitly, but contextually it’s there, especially in her later statement that she should have died in that hospital) and they never let her progress from that. despite the life she has in jackson, despite the people who love her, she’s stuck where she was at 14, thinking her life doesn’t matter and not understanding at all why joel saved her (because her life always mattered; because it’s one worth living). secondly it’s cruel because they take the one thing away from her she loves above all other things, leaving her ultimately scared and alone, with nothing and no one. that thing she needs to find to live for - she never gets that. it renders joel’s intervention to save her life pointless and that feels worse in the context of the ‘it was me who missed’ addition. ultimately, within the narrative of part 2, they both would have been better off if joel hadn’t opened that door again and ellie had died on that table (joel wouldn’t have experienced the pain of loving again and then been beaten to death like a dog in the street and ellie wouldn’t have lost everything her friends her family her dad her fingers her connection to joel her mother’s knife) instead of ending up broken and alone. and that’s not only really sad and bleak, it’s really cruel. it’s mean. it’s the antithesis of part 1 completely and utterly.

[rise-my-angel]

They really shot themselves in the foot with casting this man as Joel. Look at him. Hes a dork. He's just some goofy kids lame dad.

Whats season 2 going to do to turn us against him? He's just minding his own buisness in Jackson. Losing at boggle and eating chef boyardee. He's a goober.

[reiryugazaki]

I put off playing tlou2 up until recently just to get a firsthand account of everything and I can't sleep so let me say some things. I deeply resent everything about this game. I hate how it's an all hurt no comfort fan fic of a game. I hate how every moment of lightness or happiness is a flashback intended to twist the knife and remind you of what's been lost by Ellie/Abby/the player. I can't even enjoy the flashbacks with Joel because it's so obviously there just to go "wow, isn't it so sad? Isn't it so fucking sad how happy Joel and Ellie were here? Isn't it?" There are no genuine present day moments of hope. And how it tries soooo much to make you go, gee this Jerry guy sure was nice. He was a neurosurgeon and a firefly, an objectively good person who'd never hurt a fly. Except well, he would kill a 14 year old girl and is never able to even fathom the idea of giving up his own daughter. But nevermind that. He helps animals. He liked to collect coins! He wasn't a criminal so his life had value! I sure do feel bad for shooting him now! Except I don't. I couldn't give a fuck about Jerry or Owen or Mel or the racist caricature that is Manny and anyone else that's connected to Abby. I am incapable of caring about this massive cast expansion. Abby is only likable to me when she has absolutely nothing related to Ellie/Joel on her mind. And even then her principles are so weak, but that's somehow meant to come across as her being empathetic and open to chaning her mind. 2 days. 2 fucking days of hanging out with a pair of kids she considered the enemy and would've killed without remorse or hesitation before. But oh, these kids SAVED her. That's different. Maybe Seraphites are PEOPLE? Whoa. The attempts at humanizing her because, oh, she's afraid of heights! How vulnurable! She still collects quarters like her dad did! She's already so bonded with Lev in such a short amount of time! It's just like Joel and Ellie! As if Abby didn't hold onto revenge and hatred for 5 years and have the audacity to not even feel satisfied with killing Joel. Or roping her friends in on her revenge quest while betraying one of them. Give me a break. And I don't even necessarily hate Abby because I don't think there's enough of her as a character for me to hate. I hate that she represents this game that has so little ties to the first. I hate that Neil took advantage of our attachment to Joel and Ellie for the purpose of telling his little story about violence and revenge when that had shit all to do with the first game. Everything about this game is so BITTER and HATEFUL towards the two characters we bonded with in the first game. It's so fucking edgy and gritty, like a shitty reboot. It's torture and trauma porn and a misery simulator and UNFUN with too many fucking cinematics. With the context of the HBO adaptation, I just can't help but wonder what the fuck caused Neil to turn on Ellie, and agree with her having a "violent heart."

[cock-holliday]

Kind of expanding off of this post but a likelihood even more bothersome than Neil forgetting his own source material is that this was his original intention all along, and the story was only saved by his lack of complete creative control over the original product.

At this point, the core of the story is now placed in part 2, not the original. What I thought was intentioned ambiguity becomes more and more indicative of Neil not being allowed to say the quiet part out loud…until part 2. Moral quandaries from the original were merely setups for blatant and unsubtle messages. The original asked thought-provoking questions, and it seems clear that the team behind the game may have had different answers, or at least embraced the possibilities of multiple conclusions. Part 2 says there is only one answer: Neil’s answer.

*spoiler warning*

Suddenly the original is not presenting the player with grey areas anymore, it is simply the setup for a conclusion. Even the marketing now positions this to be the case, as it is difficult to find a copy of The Last of Us that is not labeled “The Last of Us: Part 1.” The HBO show has even shifted aspects to cater more specifically and blatantly to the messages of Part 2, which are as disheartening as they are childish.

The Last of Us questioned what people would do to survive, it questioned what lengths people would go to for their loved ones, it questioned what choices people would make based on their own traumas.

Part 2 tries to say that violence and hate are as inherent as love and hope, and effectively inescapable as part of “human nature.” Except it IS escapable. For the antagonist. So Neil’s own message is lost in hypocrisy. Part 2 tries to say that any and all violence is proportional. A girl killing her would-be rapist is as violent as the person who attempted to prey on her. A girl killing someone in self-defense is as violent as killing someone out of hatred. All violence is equal regardless of motivation or context or power dynamics. A system is the same as an individual. A military force is the same as the rebels fighting against it.

All violence is condemnable, nuance is lost. And the only absolution for your part in the violence is to suffer. Unless of course you seek out peace sooner than your opponent.

Joel committed violence to survive. He committed violence to save Ellie. He is only absolvable through death.

Ellie committed violence to survive. She committed violence to avenge Joel. She is only absolvable through the loss of everyone she loves, unspeakable trauma, the loss of fingers—and by extension her ability to play guitar, something that kept her connected to the person she was closest to—and must be relegated to her plainly stated worst fear: ending up alone.

Abby committed violence by avenging her father and killing Joel. She committed violence by killing and hurting Ellie’s friends. She committed violence by participating in occupation and torture of those living beyond her border wall. She committed violence by brutalizing Tommy. She committed violence by betraying her friends. She is absolved by…getting a found family.

The game tries so hard to be highbrow but doesn’t follow its own logic. It can’t decide what is excusable and what is condemnable but god does it fucking try to excuse or condemn rather than suggest that there isn’t a clear answer.

Joel and Ellie are consumed by guilt. They, particularly Ellie, are forced into situations against their own moralities, but are expected to pay the narrative price as if they did their acts out of evilness anyway.

Abby is not remorseful for anything she has done, but decides she wants to move forward (having already achieved her goal of revenge early in the narrative) and now is permitted to walk away. If revenge is evil, why is Abby allowed to have it? If violence is all bad regardless of context, why are only some punished by the narrative and not others?

If an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, why is the person who wasn’t seeking revenge blinded?

Neil tries to make a point about violence removed from context, motivated by his OWN views of violence removed from context. The why suddenly doesn’t matter. The why isn’t protecting someone, it isn’t protecting yourself, it isn’t an attempt to remove shackles of oppression, it isn’t a push for freedom, it isn’t to escape occupation. It is simply “human nature’s propensity for violence.” It is cynicism and a reductive stance on people as a whole.

Violence is not permitted to be a tool for controlling masses and a tool for liberation and a means to survive and a necessary measure for protection and a way to exert power over the defenseless all as commingling realities. No, violence is simply “bad.” A child predator is simply “the dark side of humanity” and not a specific dynamic born from a combination of factors. A child killing said predator in self-defense is also suddenly the girl’s “dark side” and not the exercise of violence as a method of escape. They are equal. Because violence is bad. A military beating down its citizens for control is just bad because violence is bad. So the people who overthrow the military occupation are ALSO bad because violence is bad.

Suddenly game 1 is no longer a multifaceted view on the potential paths of post-apocalypse, and a mind-probing posing of questions about morality and justice. It is a buffet of “bad people” doing “bad things”, with the inevitable second shoe dropping in part 2 which says: and so they will all eat each other.

[loversandantiheroes]

As much as I love Pedro and his turn as Joel, I just can't get excited for the rest of tlou bc a) I know what happens and I just don't want to see that, and b) tlou2's thinly veiled zionist bullshit would put me off even if I did. And it bugs me so much because it's just not that fucking hard to find a logical continuation of the story the first game sets up that doesn't devolve into a shitty pseudo anti-revenge narrative that seemingly forgets the entire theme of Ellie's agency and kills a beloved central character in service to its own bullshit message.

[darklinaforever]

I'll say it all my life, The Last of Us didn't need a sequel !

Everything was wrapped up perfectly, with a good open ending, where the ambiguity is left on Ellie either believing or not believing Joel's lie.

I personally always thought that she guessed that Joel was lying and nevertheless accepted this lie because she love him and because it's more easier like this. Joel must, meanwhile, as well suspect that Ellie has doubts after his questions. But the two preferred to sink into this lie.

Besides, it doesn't seem to me that a second game was originally planned. (tell me if I'm wrong)

The second game meanwhile is just shit. A mistake. Not because Joel dies (I see you coming), or because of his message about the revenge cycle that must / should end.

Simply everything is very badly executed / structured for me.

There are good ideas, yes. But everything is treated in an extremely shitty way once again.

Also, don't even get me started on Abby's character... Not to mention her stupid relationship with Lev out of nowhere.

And it makes me sick to see so many people elevate this script shit to a masterpiece...

The first game was a masterpiece. Not his sequel. And it's certainly no better than the first game, which in my opinion (and that of others at the time of the game's release, now considered like the first part) did not need a sequel.

Well, that was my rant.

[stonelions]

having finished the show, my ultimate (and most generous) take on TLOU HBO, the take that encompasses all my other takes, is that TLOU (the version co-created by the now uncredited Bruce Straley) is a surprisingly complicated interactive narrative, one that unfortunately doesn't lend itself well to the time constraints of a 9 episode television season.

this is exacerbated by the show being a highly unfaithful adaptation which not only adds unnecessary new plotlines, but fails to compensate for massive, retconning alterations to the characters and major story beats, an offense that's compounded by two showrunners hellbent on hammering out any ambiguity with shoddy exposition in place of worldbuilding, and conflating melodrama with moral complexity.

it would be a monumental task for any writer to maintain even part of the emotional impact achieved by the immersive, participatory experience of playing the video game, and instead of trying to do that, Druckmann decided to seal off every space that might allow interpretation outside his own authorial intent. and that's... just kind of a lousy thing to do to your audience.

[ragnarssons]

the way they went out of their way to make joel an explicitely suicidal man who just got over/kinda healed from his suicidal thoughts/tendancies but they'll still go through with *waves around* ANY of tlou2 is actually quite triggering to me

[sillyguyhotline]

like honestly the thing i dislike most about tlou2 is how it treats ellie’s character arc and response to her trauma and i think that the parallels that the showrunners have drawn between her and david in the show are explicit proof that they genuinely do not have any ability to differentiate between different forms of violence and the ways in which they can be justified. there is no question that all of the violence ellie takes against david and his crew is retaliatory and done out of necessity, or done because if she didn’t hurt them first they would have hurt her. she is a 14 year old in a cruel world with someone she cares about to protect, and everyone else in this world is fighting to keep their lives on the day-to-day just like her. the violence she chooses to take is not just a consequence of the world that she lives in but a requirement in order to stay alive. and she doesn’t take pleasure in this violence! she never kills or hurts anyone out of enjoyment or sadism, she kills them because she fucking has to. and yet when david, the rapist and predator, accuses her of having a “violent heart” for daring to fight back against a gang of adult men trying to kill her, the showrunners state that he’s supposed to be exposing an uncomfortable truth and that his words ring true in some way. they fucking don’t! a child defending herself is not comparable at all to the adult preying upon her, but because she’s using violent means to do so she’s treated like she’s just as bad as them. and this is why i think that the way tlou2 frames ellie is just fucking shitty, because in that story as well the violence she takes is not founded from a simple desire for pleasure or gratification. it comes from a lifetime of watching her loved ones die, of being reminded time and time again that everything can and will be taken from her and she has no choice but to sit and watch. her violence is an attempt to reclaim what’s been taken from her after the person she loves most has been killed and she’s been pushed over the edge. the story ends with her having everything taken for her and ending up alone because she’s sacrificed everything for the sake of pursuing violence, and while this makes sense with the theme it’s completely incongruous with her character because that’s the issue she has been facing throughout the entire series! she only ends up stagnating as a character because her violence is not taken into the greater context of her development. this issue is also present in the attempt to compare her character to abby’s because they have very different reasons for pursuing violence but they’re treated the same by the story. ellie’s story revolves around revenge, but although abby’s story starts with revenge it ends up with her learning that thoughtless violence is bad and compassion is valuable. abby is rewarded by the story because she’s able to learn that violence is bad and move on from that while ellie is punished because she never moves on. but ellie was never at a point at which she was joyfully killing people and taking pleasure in their torture! she doesn’t have the opportunity to learn from her violence because her priority never was simply to kill people for the sake of it, it was to secure closure for the damage she’s sustained. the only reason abby even is able to move on is because her revenge plot succeeds and it brings her closure. the way that the story continually treats violence like a universal constant and the source of all the characters’ problems, instead of taking the time to evaluate the reasons that motivate this violence, is so deeply frustrating. victims are treated just as bad as their abusers for fighting back because the issue is perceived to be the violence and not the beliefs or power dynamics behind it. just. ugh

[theghostbeaters]

Not gonna watch the hbo last of us but from gifs and posts looks like they are making ellie way more evil then in the game? Keep seeing a post saying she "lights up like the fourth of july" when Joel murders someone and everyones like "yeah so good they know ellie so well" like bruh do yall remember the first game? I remember if I even looked at an enemy the wrong way I would hear "Jesus joel!". I remember her wanting to puke the first time she kills someone in the Apts, and stabing a dude to not get killed but then saying "I thought we were just gonna like hold them up or something" when Tess and Joel pop them in the head. She just got out of a safe zone she doesnt get "hard" till much later in the game. It's clear they are changing her so they can do the shitty tlou 2 storyline they have a hard on for so that sucks. 🤷‍♀️

[aeirithgainsborough]

‘do you want ellie to just be a prop for joel’s story’ you say, as though she isn’t treated as literally that in tlou2, the game ur defending lmao. ellie is nothing BUT a prop in that narrative. a prop for abby’s story which neil was so desperate to tell but knew not as many ppl would buy if joel and ellie weren’t there so he shoved them in without care or regard for their journey in part 1 or their development. a prop for neil’s torture porn narrative he was determined to do at the detriment of ellie’s character and development, her choices are used not in service of her arc/growth or bcus they’re in the best interest of her and who she is, but to increase her/our suffering and for shock value. her not speaking to joel for 2 years isn’t some great character choice for ellie ‘id be more scared without you’ williams, it’s to make her torment and regret when he dies worse that is literally why he dies the day after they agree to try instead of being given time to get their relationship in a better place before he dies. ellie ‘im scared to end up alone’ williams leaving dina and jj to carry on her absurd revenge plot isn’t a choice in the interest of giving her the character arc she deserves, it’s a choice designed to literally leave her broken and alone with nothing so the revenge bad message can be ham fisted at us as though we wouldn’t have known if they hadn’t told us lol. ellie has no arc. she has no development. the game isn’t about her immunity which was so important to her, it barely mentions it, ironic bcus that’s what she’s so mad at joel about and then it’s so irrelevant to the plot, hence why I’ve always said it would have made more sense for her anger to be about him lying but they never make her bring that up when it was a far bigger betrayal. it’s not about her realising her life always mattered. she doesn’t grow whatsoever from the trauma based martyrdom mindset she has in part 1. she’s the same at 19 as she was at 14. she’s stagnant. and that’s literally bcus she’s nothing more than a fucking prop in a story that let the plot lead the characters instead of the characters leading the plot like what arc is there to defend here? the whole game even has this running theme that ellie is on this rampage cus she’s a mirror of joel he taught her anger and violence (which is wrong! but that’s another post) and now look at her she’s just like him! the narrative doesn’t even let her be a fully realised person she’s just what joel’s *made her* even after his death but sure she’s not just a prop and she gets her own arc in part 2 lmao give me a fucking break.

[rise-my-angel]

I think being forced to watch Joel make his way through the hospital instead of doing it as the player makes it so much more impactful. The slow somber music, the muted sound effects, the tracking shots of bullet casings at Joels feet, and the disassociating look on his face. As opposed to an over the shoulder playing sequence where you're focused on aim accuracy.

I think it humanizes Joels descion far more this way. Makes his choice even more understandable. This isn't a ruthless, anger fueled bloodbath. This is desperation pushed to a razors edge. It's not cruel, or heartless, it's just as painful for Joel as it is for everyone he shoots.

If season 2 really is the 2nd game, they have truly made an impossible task at forcing us to see this act as anything but inevitable. We aren't doing the killing as a player which lets us distance ourself with Joel's desperation and look at the carnage with a degree of desensitization. We the player, feel nothing about these actions until the end.

But we see it on full display in the show the while journey, we see its not fueled by selfish motivation. It's that protecting the ones you love isn't heroic or even vengeful. It's so painful Joel disssocates until he has Ellie in his arms.

He does what needs to be done, and it's going to be impossible to now tell us, that this was the act of a monster. It may feel like that in the game, because we did it and we felt nothing behind the screen for these people. But Joel in the show does.

We hear it in the music and in the way it mutes the loud carnage we had to listen to in the game. We see in his face and the way it doesn't show full shots of his actions.

This isn't angry or selfish or vengeful. It's painful and desperate. And we can finally see how much Joel had to separate from himself in order to pull it off, because only when he gets to Ellie does the sound come back. Beacuse so does he then.

If they tried to frame Joel as bad for season 2 foreshadowing this is the worst attempt at later season set up I've ever seen.

[cock-holliday]

Still talking about it, but ultimately, what was the point of any of it then? I’m clinging to the idea that Bruce and others’ influence at (and eventual swift departure from) Naughty Dog is indicative that there IS still meaning in the first one, but the idea that all of this is the natural conclusion renders so many powerful moments from the first game meaningless.

Ellie is characterized by her snark and wit and humor as well as her stubbornness, as well as a shining burst of hope and positivity. Joel, and by extension the player, would be foolish to think her optimism and hope are out of naivety though. But now, through both game 2 and the HBO show, the moments that prove that her desire for hope is in spite of what she’s been through out of conscious effort and not because of being sheltered becomes recontextualized to show she was silly for ever expecting a better outcome.

The pivotal moment of Ellie’s arc is the winter chapter. She has struggled against Joel’s helicoptering (which is only out of his OWN fear of losing her) and insistence she can’t protect herself, but now is on her own. She proves her capabilities, she shows her knowledge and grit and the grim reality that she is VERY aware of the world she lives in. She’s brave, she’s determined, but she’s also terrified. She’s a child. And at the conclusion of the arc, she kills the antagonist in defense, but also in rage and desperation and agony of everything she’s been through. She isn’t cruel. She is kind. She is kind to Joel, she is kind to Sam, she is kind to people and animals and things but has to do what she has to. And it hurts her.

Her optimism takes a blow. Her hope takes a blow. She becomes withdrawn and doubtful and is very very VERY clearly trundling towards the conclusion that after everything, she has to give her entire self to make up for the loss. Which is WRONG. Her conclusion is wrong! Her conclusion is from guilt, survivors guilt, from guilt from what she’s been forced to do, from adults placing sacrificial significance on her. She didn’t ask for this. It just happened to her, and the only shred of agency she has is in walking towards what could be her demise.

What powerful messages about hope and loss and trauma and trying to find the good in circumstances riddled with trauma an ambiguous ending is. And how subversive it would be to let her heal. Let Joel, her mirror in many ways, heal.

But no. Her trauma is actually the indication that even a sweet lovable young person is not free of evil. No, she should not be made out to be “pure”, this does nothing for her character and would hinder her growth too. But to make her out to be simply a slave to the “darkness of humanity” is…cruel. That taking agency is actually a sign of her violent impulses is cruel.

And ultimately what is the point? She’s not permitted much time with Joel in Jackson to heal. She doesn’t get to live peacefully with him. Her friends die or leave her, everyone who is still alive is scarred physically and mentally and will be a forever reminder of what she’s lost. She can’t connect to Joel in the one way she still could cling to throughout the second game.

Like what is the POINT? “After all we’ve been through. Everything I’ve done. It can’t be for nothing.” It WASNT! Not when she could heal, not when she could move on, not when she could learn that she is not responsible for humanity and the fate of the world does not rest on her shoulders. But she doesn’t get to heal. She gets to be blamed along with Joel for dooming humanity. All her understandable but unnecessary guilt turns out to be necessary, but with no resolution. There is nothing she can do to make it up, and nothing she gets to do to move forward. She loses everything.

And her only way forward is just surviving or dying. She can’t ever thrive now. She can’t ever heal. The farm portion of game 2 made that clear. Even away from everything there’s no escape. So there is no REASON to be hopeful or optimistic. The end of game 2 tries to suggest that NOW she can move forward but clearly she can’t! The second game makes her out to be a fool for being hopeful. Makes her naive for being kind and optimistic. Then punishes her brutally when the story forces her to abandon that hopefulness. That’s so fucked up.

[thatblackdress]

Always amused when I see something like, “Joel had to die because ~realism, it’s just not ~realistic for him to survive much longer, the gritty realism makes the story” in response to someone finding TLOU2’s story direction disappointing.

But then if you analyse the improbability of the vaccine/nonsensical choices of the Fireflies in TLOU1, you’re also told, “you’re not supposed to focus on the ~realism, you’re ruining the story”.

Like please make up your mind, what is it 💀

[darklinaforever]

When a professional demonstrates how fireflies are slammed to the ground... If the fireflies managed to get a cure / vaccine with their fucking stupid method, it would literally be a miracle.