#at one point the game shows you where the geoglyphs are and in which order you should go look at them

[lulu2992]

What's your favorite order to kill the Heralds in and why? <3

I don’t really have a favorite order, simply because I wish I could have not killed them 😅 In my first playthrough, I did John-Faith-Jacob, and in my second, Jacob-Faith-John, but I still started with the Holland Valley. I only went to the church for my Atonement when there was nothing left to do in the county.

That said, I think that what the game wants us to do is either Jacob-John-Faith (because of the Horsemen of the Apocalypse and the Seven Seals) or John-Jacob-Faith.

Dutch says to go to Fall’s End first because it’s the heart of the Resistance, and Holland Valley is also the mildest region since you mostly deal with regular cultists, not super soldiers and mind-controlled wolves or hallucinations and Angels everywhere. I kind of regret going to the Henbane River so early in my first playthrough because this region really took a toll on me. The Whitetails Mountains felt less intense in comparison.

In a way, John is the least powerful Herald and the easiest to take down (as frustrating as that dogfight can be) and, from what I understand, anyone who joins the Project has to meet The Baptist first, so I think it makes sense for the Deputy to do the same. After Jacob’s death, Wheaty motivates the Whitetails to end Eden’s Gate, but in my opinion, his speech implies that the fight against the cult is far from over, so killing The Soldier last seems a bit weird. Then, while her brothers each take only one Deputy, Faith captures two people, one of them being the Sheriff who, when she’s been defeated, says it’s time to go after Joseph, so taking down The Siren last feels right to me.

Also, in the Holland Valley, no major Resistance member dies, but in the Whitetail Mountains, one person is killed (Eli), and in the Henbane River, the Deputy loses two allies (Virgil and Burke), so if you play the regions in this order, things get more and more violent as you progress. And if you do John-Jacob-Faith, Joseph’s eulogies also get increasingly sad: he doesn’t cry for John, cries a bit for Jacob, and cries a lot for the last family member (Faith in this case).

Anyway, I think Holland Valley-Whitetail Mountains-Henbane River is the most logical order. Then, it makes sense to me to do either John-Jacob-Faith (for gameplay reasons) or Jacob-John-Faith (because of the prophecy).

[loz-furbies]

Breath of the Wild / Age of Calamity / Tears of the Kingdom Zelda, part 2/2

Role in the story

BotW, AoC and TotK stand out among the LoZ games in that they're specifically Zelda's stories in a way only Spirit Tracks can rival. Or Skyward Sword also did a similar thing where you first try to figure out what the deal with Zelda is, but I'd say that in that game Link's own journey to becoming the hero he needs to be is just as important, while BotW Link's is feelings about his adventure are more implied that explicitly shown in his games. While the actual story of BotW and TotK is pretty similar to most loz titles as far as Zelda is concerned (she is in some kind of trouble through the whole time and only clearing the game can help her, and she has minimal impact to the actual gameplay of the final fight), since we get to see so much of her own story, her contributions still feel a lot more meaningful than just doing something fancy in a cutscene after the player has done all the actual work. And despite being absent for the whole game, Zelda still has a lot of presence, since searching cutscenes about her is the main quest, and so many side characters talk about her.

I prefer Zelda's story in BotW over TotK, because in BotW she has internal conflicts and character development, while in TotK she is more about dealing with the external conflict that the plot throws at her. Or you can say that she is unsure about what to do at first and has grown more confident by the final Dragon Tear cutscene, but I don't think this was motivated by any personal growth about her. Also I'm not a fan of how the Master Sword just shows up on its own in the past, because it makes it feel like she's just acting on someone else's plan and the whole draconification is pushed on her. The scene where she eats the secret stone is really good, but I would rather have had her also intentionally pull the Master Sword to her after she comes up with the dragon plan to give her more agency about the whole thing.

TotK also has the issue that while the scene where Zelda sacrifices her humanity in order to restore the Master Sword is incredible, when it comes to gameplay impact, it comes across as underwhelming. Like this is a reincarnated goddess who gave up her all and has been pouring her strength for a billion years into this sword as a culmination of the dramatic flashback story, and what you get out of it is... a base power 30 weapon. I get why it is like this for obvious balance reasons, but from a pure story perspective, there's so much narrative weight on the Master Sword that at this point it should be able to one-hit-kill anything that isn't Ganondorf.

Showing the cutscenes about Zelda in mostly random order is a somewhat risky way to tell the story. I got a satisfying story in both BotW and TotK, but I figure that your opinion about Zelda might be coloured if the first BotW memory you see about her is the one where she acts rude towards Link. But I do like how any of the memories being optional naturally plays into the ending of the game where Zelda asks if you remember her; how well the player knows Zelda probably factors in how they feel during this scene, so I'd say that each player gets the ending they deserve.

Meanwhile in TotK I feel that after getting the geoglyph where Zelda makes the decision to turn into a dragon, the rest of them become less meaningful when the mystery about where she disappeared has already been solved. And speaking of which, I really wish the game handled the mystery about Zelda in the present time better because all red herrings about her become incredibly awkward when Link already knows where she is. I can still sort of buy that he wouldn't want to discuss this with Penn, but the main story missions really should have had an alternate version if you already did the Dragon Tears quest. And puppet Zelda in Hyrule castle towards the end doesn't work too well either, like what am I expected to feel about this suspiciously behaving Zelda when the game has already made it clear that it can't possibly be her?

Also it should be noted that as has become somewhat of a tradition, Zelda also gives you the Bow of Light in BotW. Which feels a little superfluous there since it's not really related to the rest of her story, but whatever. She also takes part in the TotK final battle as the Light Dragon, though she's not a very active participant when she just automatically carries you higher when you fall down enough, and later she has no memory of her time as a dragon anyway. But it's nice that she was included in some way at least.

AoC tells a similar story about how Zelda goes through failing to awaken her powers to confidently wielding them in a battle, but it feels completely different since the player is present through these events instead of seeing them in a flashback cutscene. And I would argue that Zelda just flat out is the main character of that game, sure you start as Link but Zelda already becomes a playable character in chapter 2, and story-wise Link is feels very much like an afterthought.

AoC makes her a badass fighter like all the other characters, which is totally at odds with the rest of her characterisation, but it's just something you have to accept for this type of game. And of course it would have been super disappointing if she wasn't playable. I like her Sheikah Slate and Bike movesets, but I never liked the bow for too complicated for me to handle (and somehow the bow tutorial is like the hardest level in the game?)

In the golden ending of TotK the sages pledge their loyalty to Zelda, and the scene cuts to a flashback of the ancient sages doing the same for Rauru. Honestly I don't really get what they're trying to say with this; Zelda doesn't have any kind of character arc that would need to culminate in her becoming a leader or accepting help from others, and while the ancient version of this can be taken as everyone joining forces to fight evil together, at the end of TotK the world has already been saved so I don't see what the other races would get out of, I dunno, reinstating the monarchy that fell a hundred years ago? And the sages are already personal friends with Zelda anyway so the whole scene just feels weird.

Relationships

In addition to having a lot of development to herself as an individual, this Zelda also gets to have a lot of relationships with various NPCs that are worth mentioning.

As usual Link is among the most important relationships for Zelda. Zelda and Link obviously have the connection that they both have a predestined role in the Ganon thing, and the fact that they have such different starting points (Zelda struggles at her job while Link is pretty much already ready for his) gives them an interesting contrast. And when they eventually start getting along better they’re probably the only people who can understand each other’s situation properly.

Out of the Zelda and Link duos I've seen, I think this one has the most well defined relationship. For comparison SS Zelink comes second, and while I do like them a lot and I think the game makes it clear they care about each other as people, I don't think there's much else to their relationship than "childhood friends". Or like stuff that makes them unique among the many anime childhood friends. Meanwhile in BotW we get to know some actual specifics about their relationship (at least from Zelda's side), primarily about their shared fate. Zelda being jealous of Link's success at his job is a notable part of the story, and this comes up a lot. In her diary she describes how she is unhappy about the king appointing Link as her knight, how she is unnerved about how he is so silent and unreadable, and how she speculates about how he must despise her for her failures. And her jealousy doesn't just affect her own self esteem, but also impacts her behaviour when she lashes out at him for just doing his job.

Once Link saves Zelda from the Yiga clan, she becomes more friendly towards him, apologises and puts an effort in getting to know him more. I think it's a cute detail that the first thing she learns about him is how gluttonous he is. Eventually Link confides in him about the pressure he feels about his duty and Zelda presumably talks about her own fears (or at least she writes in her diary that she wants to and I assume she eventually did). So I really like that they get to connect at a very personal level and open up about their insecurities, and the game explicitly points out this connection.

I do have some issues with how the turning point of their relationship where Link saves her from the Yiga clan is executed. Like the reasons Zelda starts to see Link in a more positive light is because he did the one job he had as a bodyguard, like that comes as a surprise to her. On an intellectual level sure I can get that it's different for her to know that Link's job is to protect her from theoretical danger and actually experience that moment, but I don't think the story works in the moment. The scene itself is pretty weak, like Zelda writes in her diary how Link put himself in danger for her sake, but it's just two Yiga footsoldiers so as a player it's hard to relate to the idea that Link was at any kind of risk.

Age of Calamity changes Link's character significantly in that he finds the Master Sword during the game after he has already been appointed as Zelda's knight, and this also changes their relationship to a less interesting direction. As someone who is on track with fulfilling their role in the grand plan, Link still works as a foil to Zelda who struggles with hers, but all of this is depicted as Zelda's frustration at herself and all the the envy and animosity towards Link is missing. In general Link is pretty boring in AoC and most of what he could be able to contribute towards Zelda have been moved to Impa. But I do like how consistently he acts as her bodyguard in AoC, there are multiple scenes where he moves in front of her to protect her. Which of course is very appealing to someone who really likes the princess-and-knight trope.

Ultimately I think Link and Zelda make for a good couple not just because they have so much shared history together, but specifically because both are canonically kind of weird. Zelda makes people eat frogs, and Link is someone who eats rocks. I prefer to imagine that even before the Calamity Zelda could fully be herself around Link. And in TotK it's clear she has a high opinion of Link, considering how much she brags about him to Rauru (which was a super cute scene).

Since we've been taking note of any hand holding instances between Link and Zelda it should be noted that there's some of those here as well, though none of them are what I'd classify anywhere near romantic. As the bodyguard Link drags Zelda by the hand when they run away from enemies, and the ultimate hand holding game TotK also gives one hand holding moment to Zelink too (though Link holds hands in pretty much every important character in that game). And we also get a little princess carry moment at the end so that's cool.

While I don't think any of the games confirm that they are canonically a couple, I think there's a lot that points in that direction. Kass relays his teacher's observation that Zelda was in fact in love with Link, and while this is third-hand information and either Kass or the teacher could have misunderstood something, but that just feels like a really strange thing to put in the game especially when it isn't challenged in any way. Then there's the TotK house debate which has been discussed to death, so I'll just state the often listed things that Link can only sleep in the bed of this house, and if Zelda lived alone she wouldn't have as much need for a private study. And also the process of elimination: the game doesn't really give Link any other house where he would have lived during the years between BotW and TotK.

The previous Zelda dads have been pretty boring (either just generically nice or lacking any proper characterisation), so I welcome King Rhoam to this group. He's a pretty hated character for obvious reasons, but I like him because even though he was a terrible father, as a character he is interesting. The story also has more bite to it if everyone isn't just besties with everyone, and Zelda's distress feels more personal when her inability to awaken her powers doesn't affect just faceless masses and instead the constant reminder of her failures has a face. There are many scenes where he impedes or belittles her research or forbids it altogether, and in general the two appear to have a pretty formal and distant relationship.

Many in the audience want Rhoam's head on a stake for his horrid parenting, but I'd say that in canon Zelda is more willing for reconciliation, at least if AoC is anything to go by. According to his diary, Rhoam had been a strict father ever since the queen died (so Zelda was six) and there is little material on them actually having any positive interaction, but I figure there must have been something at least, or at least Zelda appears to value his approval. I do wonder how Zelda feels about her dad after the events of BotW since she probably got to read his diary and Link must have told him about the "old man".

In TotK Zelda gets more competent parental figures in Rauru and Sonia. It's a shame the game itself doesn't bring this up, but at least there is an interview that compares Zelda's parents to them. Through the power of magic and plot convenience they instantly sense that Zelda is trustworthy and become incredibly supportive of her. It really makes a huge difference for Zelda when she gets some actual guidance for unlocking her new magic powers, and unlike her BotW experience where she's constantly reminded of how necessary her contribution is to saving the world, this time she is told that this is not her fight and she is allowed to focus on her own issues. She eventually becomes a part of Rauru's inner circle and anti-Ganondorf team. I really like how Rauru treats Zelda, in that he consistently acts like the adult in the relationship and always remains supportive, but also doesn't baby her either and lets her make her own decisions.

While the other Beast Pilots primarily have a notable relationship with Link, Urbosa is more about Zelda as a mother figure or a "cool aunt" type. Urbosa is consistently supportive towards Zelda; she consoles her when her powers fail to awaken, was present to help when kid Zelda almost passed out from praying in cold water, puts her hand on her shoulder when she's stressed, and tries to do something about her strained relationship with Link. It's clear that the two are very close and go way back and Zelda has opened to her about her feelings. Zelda also acts more relaxed around Urbosa, like in the cute scene in Champion's ballad where they laugh together about having to put up a formal act in front of an audience.

Zelda also writes that she was surprised that Mipha was quick to learn to control her Divine Beast, whatever that means. Other than that Zelda doesn't share much of a specific relationship with Mipha, and Zelda's situation isn't contrasted with Mipha's at all even though both are princesses who are in a conflict with their king father. Even if Zelda does share personal and character-focused cutscenes with all champions, in general there's not much to say about her relationship towards the non-Urbosa Beast Pilots; while each of them has their own unique feelings about Zelda, from Zelda's side it's more just that she considers them her friends.

AoC Impa is in a similar boat. Impa's title in the game is "Royal advisor, loyal friend", and she indeed is included in many of Zelda's scenes where she's troubled over her lack of progress with her powers. Third-wheeling the Zelink from a shipper's perspective, but makes sense from a narrative perspective to have someone for Zelda to play off so she doesn't have to monologue for an entire cutscene since Link (or Terrako) doesn't talk as usual. So Impa gets to deliver some important pep talk to Zelda, so she can continue to trudge forward despite all her failures. Still this is mostly from Impa's side and I don't get a lot out of Zelda outside obviously seeing Impa as a friend.

Mind you even if I don't think Zelda's relationship with Impa or the Beast Pilots is particularly special, I'm not really complaining. Like there is effort to put them in character focused scenes and have them have some sort of connection with each other, and in almost any other LoZ game they would be a high point in Zelda's relationship list. It's just that the bar is way higher with this iteration of Zelda, so stuff like this becomes even worth mentioning.

The TotK sages have disappointingly little to do with Zelda, even though they should have known each other for years. We get nothing from Zelda's side towards any of them, and the sages are primarily concerned about the environmental disaster affecting their homes (which okay is fair) and Zelda is just a footnote in their story. Only Riju brings up Zelda being her close friend, and is the only one to refer to her as Zelda, while the other three use princess Zelda.

AoC gives Zelda her own companion character in Terrako, which I guess is fitting if you see her as the main character of the game. Unfortunately for me Terrako inhabits the character type that I categorically dislike and is my least favourite character of the franchise, but is still relevant enough that it warrants a mention here. And if Zelda has to have a mascot, making it a little robot is a good pick. We even get to see a flashback where kid Zelda builds Terrako, which of course ties well into her characterisation as a scientist. Through the story Terrako is present in Zelda's important moments encouraging her, and Terrako being (temporarily) destroyed just before the grand finale is the final big moment for Zelda where she repeats her resolve to win the war. And of course the true ending of AoC has Zelda set out on her own with just Terrako, which I guess helps to really sell her as the main character of her own life (compared to if she left with her whole friend group or a bodyguard).

Purah is brought up together with Zelda a little; apparently Zelda used to cover for her when her research got too explosive back before the Calamity, and Zelda took part in the ancient Sheikah technology research and writes in her diary how she thinks it's best not to try to argue with Purah. But since being a scholar is such a big part of Zelda's character, I really wish her relationship with Purah was more developed. She doesn't get much out of Mineru either other than a mention that she visited her and rode her construct.

We also get to know about how the public perception of Zelda, in BotW Rhoam tells about how there are rumours spreading about her inadequacy, but in TotK there are NPCs in every corner of Hyrule who have something nice to say about her. I think this is cute development, and I find it believable too given how much of the talk about her is how she actively goes around helping people.

[citrusella-flugpucker]

An idea about ways to change the way the geoglyphs quest works which will Totally Please Everyone™

...What do you mean, you can't please everyone?

So, I said in December that I wanted to make a post about a game mechanic change in Tears of the Kingdom that could make everyone happy with regards to the delivery of the geoglyphs' story points.

I, for instance, liked finding them in whatever order and did not find it negatively affected my experience of the story, but some other people found they didn't like that the "correct" (read: chronological) order wasn't enforced.

I had an idea that could fix that, and it centers on a lot of conditionals, and to start off, I'm going to describe it using one already extant story progress condition a lot of people probably have never encountered. (But plenty of people probably have.)

You get this text box if you manage to arrive at the pedestal while having not started the regional phenomena main quest. (Even if you got the paraglider. It's linked to starting Regional Phenomena.)

(I spent two hours trying and failing to glitch into the room with a clip from above before finally giving up and trying precarious ascend instead because I didn't wanna steal a shot of this off a YouTuber. Everyone clap

Also, I was going to include other images but brain doesn't want to alt text right now so)

So, anyway, the idea I had is that you see this sort of text box (not that EXACT box, it's only an example), but only in certain scenarios. Imagine, if you will:

Prior to arriving at geoglyph #1, everyone--if they try to interact with another geoglyph--sees a message like, "You don't yet know how to interact with this." or something.

Then you get to #1 where Impa is waiting for you as she does in the actual game (this is where all the other images would have gone if I included them here XP). She gives you the spiel, you go up in the balloon, and some of her text is changed from the actual game in a way that suggests that when you examine again and actually have it work, you realize it involves recall, yada yada (the actual interaction with the tear doesn't change from canon, I just wanted the text to change so there's a story reason you "know" what to do now). Impa shows up after you view it, as she canonically does.

Here's where things are really changed up: While she still brings up going to the Forgotten Temple, she very much telegraphs to the player that if they go there, they will get answers as to the order, so that people will be even clearer than the actual game that they can find the map and order there (though maybe not being that direct about it when presenting this dialog to the player as it would be to say "there will be a map and pictures there"). Then, like in the real game, she suggests Link make his way there as well... BUT then a dialogue option comes up.

Will you meet me at the Forgotten Temple as soon as possible?

[Sure!] [I can manage on my own. 🅱]

And then, just in case you were spamming B, pressing that will trigger a confirmation.

Are you sure? I suspect there is important information about the geoglyphs there.

[Okay, I'll come.] [Maybe later. 🅱]

No matter which one you select, the quest is added regardless just like normal (albeit perhaps with slightly different flavor text depending on whether you agreed to the meeting or not).

If you hit B and reject all attempts to go "immediately" then the game works as it does currently: The quest is granted, all geoglyphs instantly respond to you in whatever order you approach them in, Impa goes to the Forgotten Temple, etc.

If you ever hit A on the top option, the quest is granted and you're not immediately transported there or anything, but until you arrive at the Forgotten Temple, a flag is set and all geoglyphs respond by producing a Not Yet box saying something like "You remember that you promised to meet Impa in the Forgotten Temple."

So you head to the Forgotten Temple. Regardless of whether you agreed to come or came later, just like in canon, Impa's there, you find the map and order on the wall. Some of the in-game interactions happen, but instead of Impa suggesting you take a picture (or perhaps, instead of her only suggesting you take a picture), she says something that allows you to have the order be enforced. Maybe it's writing from a book she read about the geoglyphs or something, since it's established in canon she read about the Dragon's Tears somewhere. Maybe it's connected to you taking a picture with a quest ❗ on it with the Purah Pad (though this would require you to have completed a different quest first to get the camera. oof.). But somehow, this order is imparted to you so that Link himself knows it in game.

If you reject the enforced order, you're still free to take a picture like in canon, but the flag preventing you from investigating geoglyphs is cleared and you can access them in any order just like if you'd rejected going to the temple immediately when Impa asked at tear 1.

If you agree to enforced order, the flag preventing investigating the glyphs at all is unset, and a different flag that says you chose to enforce the order is set instead. Then, if you approach a geoglyph that's not next in chronological order, the game presents a box saying something to the effect of "This doesn't look like the next geoglyph..." Maybe it's not a strict enforcement, and so when you get this box, you also get dialogue options of "Look anyway." or "Leave it alone for now." Just in case you agreed to the enforcement and then went "wait, I don't like this".

Also considered the idea that unlocking the sensor on the Purah Pad would grant you, in addition to shrines and compendium entries, the ability to track geoglyphs (maybe with changes in which geoglyphs it alerts to, dependent on if you're in enforced order or not--i.e. unenforced alerts to all, enforced only alerts to next). But that also felt like it might be too handholdy? IDK.

Anyway, this is my attempt at a best-of-both-worlds between people who want to be guided through parts of the story in a specific order and people who really don't care/don't think the variable order is a detriment and maybe just want to hit things efficiently while they're crossing the map doing other things.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk

[lesbovalentine]

wait guys can i be a little hater about totk i haven’t done that on here. and like for the record i’ve been having lots of fun with it even if i haven’t been able to play for a while. but also

idk how to do a read more on mobile. idk if u even can i didn’t use mobile when i used to make posts more. like five yrs ago. ill add that when im on my laptop next soryyyyy

anyways NUMBER ONE. sticking with the nonlinear storytelling. i think it worked for botw, felt immersive with link uncovering things about his past on his own, etc. i don’t understand the point of it here and i think it takes away from the story lol. especially with the dragons tears where they like try to foreshadow and they try to show u characters and a storyline but succeed in actually letting us know the characters hardly at all and all foreshadowing fails because you can get them in any order which also brings me to the end cutscene of minerus temple which for some reason is just 70% recapping what the dragons tears said? then the temples didnt feel very rewarding to finish just because you didnt learn anything new unlike the divine beasts you just got nearly identical scenes for all the dead sages changed only by speech patterns and approximately 3 lines from the new sage. id rather just have a scene with the new sage then the sameee cutscene with zelda every time. and i truly believe the scene after the last geoglyph dragons tear wouldve been way more impactful for me if id gotten the last few in order. i felt a drive to advance the plot for about three days and then nothing. because there is SO LITTLE plot it feels like. you get these fragments here and there and while ive been loving to explore this changed hyrule its like. i was so excited for new plot especially bringing back ganon back into the mix after so long and all we got were crumbs. come on now.

SECOND speaking of plot what was with all that emphasis on the sky islands in trailers when its the DEPTHS that r so much bigger. and there is like NOTHING about them in the plot of the games — they’re just an extension of the sky islands and overworld, really, in everything but aesthetic appearance, and they’re never relevant in the story despite how huge it should seem that there is clear evidence of zonai civilization there which is for some reason identical to whats in the sky? everyones like omg look in the sky and only josha cares about the underground in a sidequest that means very little.

THREE everyones already said something about the disappearance of guardian tech and its already been countered with a “well they must have dismantled it all to avoid it being used against them again” and thats all well and good but the complete lack of mention despite working closely with the sheikah tech researchers is INSANEE whered the massive divine beasts go?! its like the events of botw never happened no one talks about it ingame!!!!! no ones ever like well ever since we cleared all those broken down guardians from the field by fort hateno, or we’ve been using the old tech to learn from to create this new slate that is nearly identical in function to ur old one but we’re gonna for some reason always act like this camera or sheikah sensor r totally new and exciting. ???