#awoiaf lys

[sarcasticsweetlara]

How House Rogare affected Larra's life and views and Westeros.

Obviously, House Rogare was greatly wealthy and full of clever people, they owned a bank and made trade agreements not only with the Targaryens but with the Martells as well, though obviously Aliandra did not have children with Drazenko as she must surely have married again after his death, maybe to a Wyl in order to show her subjects that Dorne will not bow to the Targaryens.

Larra was the youngest of Lysandro's trueborn children, and from what we know about all her legitimate siblings is that they were good warriors and seemed to value knowledge as Larra's oldest sister Marra owned many books and a library.

Even after the Lysene Spring it seemed Larra's brother Moredo and her sisters Marra and Lysara were fine and wealthy enough to receive Larra in her last days before her death.

I will not say they were pure with no ulterior motives, but that they were clever with their business.

Viserys' marriage with Larra emphasized they were all in with the Valyrian Customs as after all they had involved themselves not only through marriage but by finances.

Daeron the Young Dragon knew about the marriage of his uncle Viserys with Larra and at some point his plan was to do something similar and wed a wealthy noble either from Lys or Braavos (of Valyrian descent) whose family would not represent a threat to Westeros but still powerful enough to aid them in wars, just like Larra and her family did in the beginning; or who knows, maybe wed a Rogare but making it known he would not tolerate being fooled.

...

I think maybe their sigil was a mermaid to symbolize their international trade and their alluring courtesans' uncommon appearance, as they were said to have white blond hair, which is said to be rare even among Valyrians.

Larra herself had a willowy appearance as well as white blonde hair alongside blue-violet eyes probably. This means that among the Lyseni the Rogares were quite unique.

Larra knew she was in a foreign land in which they were not exactly patient with foreigners, and as I said before, Valyrian seems to have had no influence nor similarities with the Westerosi Language and its dialects are of course different to it as well.

We don't know the details of her whole relationship with Viserys, but we know that life in King's Landing must have been really hard for her to drive her away in the end, like it happened with Mellario of Norvos.

...

The Rogares raised Larra in a completely different way of how she was expected to behave in Westeros and the maesters may have ignored her subtle ways of assimilating and seen her retaining of her Lysene side as something bad thus making her more unpopular, just like they did with her mother-in-law Rhaenyra.

In a certain way Larra reminds me of Catherine de' Medici in that their lives were deeply marked by scandals and that at first both courts disliked them and that both of them married second sons who no one expected to become monarchs, if Larra had stayed in King's Landing she probably would have risen and helped her children, as well as introduce a new fashion and maybe Aegon IV would not have become so rotten, Aemon would not have felt he needed to make up for his brother's acts and married and had kids and Naerys would have been happier and maybe have had a better marriage.

Larra as a queen would have been so iconic and it would have helped later with the marriages done at different times of her great-great-grandsons Valarr and Daeron had with Kiera of Tyrosh and even make the court more inclusive and progressive, granted, it would have taken time but it could have worked.

As queen she could have created her own court, a difference between being the queen consort to being the wife of the Hand of the King (though we can say obviously that for a while as Aegon III seemed to have been absent as king, Viserys and Larra were the unofficial "First" Lord and "First" Lady of the Realm) and involved herself more with the Velaryons, Celtigars and Rhaena's daughters, as well as the old allies of the Blacks and slowly gain her own allies and loyalists. Larra's own father Lysandro reminds me of Piero di Cosimo de' Medici, Larra's intelligence helping Viserys II would have made the Kingdom prosper.

As a queen Larra's words would have had more weight and thus gained more respect and truly discipline Aegon IV in a more efficient way than Viserys did, and by having her mother by her side Naerys' life could have been calmer, Naerys could have inherited the crown Larra would have used, and maybe even name a surviving child of hers after Larra. Naerys would have loved wearing the crown of her mother frequently to show she was proud of the woman who gave birth to her, and that Westeros owed a lot to Larra Rogare as she had been first the Second Lady of the Realm as the wife to the Hand of the King and later the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms who had been so resilient through all her life in King's Landing.

...

Maybe Larra did try to keep in touch with her children but failed to keep going in the end.

For those who say Larra is a random person who appears out of nowhere, remember her family is the reason Viserys was able to get back to Westeros, it may have been far away from ideal circumstances but in the end it helped House Targaryen with making alliances with Essosi and reaffirm their Valyrian otherness; maybe in another world Viserys could have traveled willingly as a man to Lys and met Larra there and then get married under both a Lysene ceremony and a Westerosi Faith of the Seven ceremony.

With this marriage House Targaryen was showing Essos they could have more unions in the future if they were willing to support the Targaryen monarchs as well.

Also, this way the Rogares helped the Targaryens in not having to rely ever again on certain family from Oldtown as the Rogare Bank was wealthier, thus showing House Targaryen would not be lenient with them, and Lotho, Larra's brother founded the Bank of Oldtown.

Whether you like Larra Rogare or not, we can not deny that her existence does influence House Targaryen and Westeros, and if she had been able allowed to still communicate with and visit her children, things could have been vastly different. Her death also impacted her family as they had now officially lost her without any hope and she had been buried away in Lys, and now they could only hold on to the memories Larra had left them, and in the case of her children to paintings, the stories of Viserys II, Aegon III and Daenaera and maybe the own recordings of Larra.

House Rogare may have received and given refuge to Aegon IV and Aerion, as well as also presented them Rohanne and Kiera as possible brides for Daemon Waters and Valarr and Daeron Targaryen (son of Maekar I and Dyanna), as most likely they had Valyrian blood that may have or not have been Rogare blood; also, maybe one or the two of Larra's sisters Marra or Lysara married into Westerosi nobility to gain more leverage, and Marra probably was the great-grandmother of Aelinor Penrose, while Lysara was probably wed to a Velaryon, Moredo to Bethany Hightower probably as Samantha Tarly did not try to do anything to them, and Drako Rogare probably was wed to Ellyn Baratheon (as she is not mentioned living in Westeros when the fates of her sisters are revealed) in an effort to bind themselves together, and the Rogares also could have presented Serenei to Aegon The Unworthy as an affair as Serenei could have ended up living with the part of the Rogare family that had been sent to the Brother Perfumed Garden.

Aerys II maybe could have also hoped to wed a Rogare to his son Rhaegar at first.

House Rogare does have a big impact on the story.

[horizon-verizon]

Whereas Lorath, Norvos, and Qohor were founded for religious reasons, the interests of Lys, Tyrosh, and Myr have always been mercantile. All three cities have large merchant fleets, and their traders sail all the world’s seas. All three cities are deeply involved in the slave trade as well. Tyroshi slavers are especially aggressive, even going so far as to sail north beyond the Wall in search of wildling slaves, whilst the Lyseni are famously voracious in seeking out comely young boys and fair maids for their city’s famous pillow houses.

A World of Ice and Fire, pg 263

[stromuprisahat]

“Why not” think about the fact of the matter and what this entails and the culture of westeros. we need a point of conflict here or we’ve got no storyline

Okay, wow. I've reblogged quite a lot of posts today, so this took some searching... but I suppose you're referring to this one.

Well, I'd say that's the thing with trying to make Alicent sympathetic. I don't remember much from AWoIaF, and I haven't read F&B yet, but I have Alicent pigeonholed as The Bitch, who wanted power through her children. That's why not in the books.

Show!Alicent is dropped into king's bed by her own father, made to pop up few kids and then fight for her son's succession so they can all survive. There's no objective reason not to approach her childhood "friend" and work together. There is a rift between them and handling the Lords wouldn't be easy, but common goal etc. ...

They have all the dragons.

They have four more children to marry off.

Aegon's not interested in ruling.

Rhaenyra's kids' parentage is questioned mostly by Alicent and ser Cunt. They have dark-haired ancestors from both sides.

The animosity between Alicent and Rhaenyra's mostly about Rhaenyra not knowing Alicent was forced into her position. The other way's about Rhaenyra lying to a person she thought she can no longer trust.

Except now it looks like Alicent's also jealous, because Rhaenyra's life isn't nearly as miserable as hers. I guess she'd need to get over that bit to cooperate... That could be a more low-key plot. Plus dealing with the outside enemy in disagreeing Lords, who think their oath no longer applies as soon as the circumstances change.

[allovesthings]

“‘Crows are all liars’ Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. ‘ i know a story about a crow.”

So first of all, we know from reading the books that we should listen to Old Nan because her stories are usually the closest thing to the truth of the Others so I want to know if the crow/Bloodraven isn’t actually tricking/lying to Bran.

Second of all, can we have that story about the crow ? Is it a member of the Night’s watch ? Maybe it is a story about Bloodraven and his 1001 eyes (I was hoping she could have met him on his way north to the wall but I checked awoiaf but he went there by boat so he never went through Winterfell..but then I realised in Dunk and Egg there is so many rumors about him that could have been turned into stories so who knows)

All of that to say GIMME ALL OF THE STORIES. I want to know.

[beneaththeshadows]

Larra Rogare.

Lady Larra of Lys, this one here is quite old but I decided to post anyway. One character that I'm weirdly invested and hope to see more about her struggles. Her necklace is lowkey based on egyptian necklaces

[aegor-bamfsteel]

How long does it take to travel to King’s Landing from Dragonstone?

I wanted to focus a meta on a seemingly minor detail that, if you look into the likely circumstances surrounding it, reveals an important piece of characterization of Da3ron II that I don’t think has been discussed. AWOIAF says, regarding Da3ron’s reaction to his father’s death: “[he] departed Dragonstone within the fortnight after learning of his father's demise and was swiftly crowned by the High Septon in the Red Keep.”

If Aegon IV had died, and then Da3ron had arrived from Dragonstone and been crowned within 2 weeks (equal to a fortnight) of this death, that would’ve been understandable. However, the “and” signifies that Da3ron was crowned after the fortnight; it took within a fortnight of being told of Aegon’s death (not Aegon’s death proper, just when he heard the news) for Da3ron to pack his things and travel from Dragonstone to King’s Landing. The implication is that the journey from Dragonstone to KL takes nearly two weeks by sea. I was so puzzled at the idea that the Targaryen’s home castle was so far away from their capital (that they chose to build in that location partially because it was that close to Dragonstone) I checked the Errata of The World of Ice and Fire to see if it was a misprint in the way Myriah Martell’s name was; it was not. Da3ron took nearly two weeks after hearing of his father’s death to arrive at King’s Landing, and was “swiftly crowned” only after. Which leads me to ask, how many miles by sea does it take to travel from Dragonstone to King’s Landing?

According to a map of Westeros and assuming that it is to scale, someone worked out the distance as 420 miles/675km by sea; it is 100 miles/160km from Dragonstone to Sharp Point on the mainland, and then 320 miles/515km of traveling west along the coast to King’s Landing. It is not mentioned what type of ship Da3ron took (galley, longship, carrick, caravel, etc; all of which travel at different speeds based on how they’re built, with longships being the fastest and galleys the slowest), how experienced its crew was (although since Dragonstone is known for its navy, you’d think they would be experienced), or if the winds were favorable, so I’m going to estimate the slow, average, and fast speed of arrival from Dragonstone to KL based on the sources:

If Westeros is anything like our world and the equator is located south of Dorne, then the prevailing winds would blow from east to west (easterlies) south of the Neck and from west to east (westerlies) north of the Neck. Dragonstone and King’s Landing are located south of the Neck, so the prevailing winds would be trade winds/easterlies; in other words, Da3ron would’ve had the wind on his side leaving Dragonstone, which would’ve increased his speed by as much as 1 knot/1.15mi. Travelling at less than 4mph/3.5knots per hour generally meant a sailing ship was travelling with unfavorable winds, so we can assume Da3ron never reached below that speed.

Ideal Conditions:

Under ideal conditions (favorable winds, a skilled crew) a sailing ship could average around 6knots/6.9mph over a trip (pre-modern vessels could “sprint” up to 12 knots, but this wasn’t sustainable). This translates to 168 miles per day, assuming sailing in the day and night (which Da3ron would’ve had to do at least on the first part of his journey to Sharp Point, as he’s sailing the open ocean). 420mi/168mi/d= 2.5 days, or 60 hours at maximum speed

Assuming Da3ron took a caravel, the maximum speed of which is 9mph or 150 miles per day, it would’ve taken 420mi/150mi/d= 2.8 days, or 68 hours at maximum speed

I doubt Da3ron took a galley, considering it is a slow ship most often used for war, but non-ironborn nobility in Westeros do seem to have more of them to their name (Cersei, Stannis, Alyn Velaryon use them as flagships) than other ships, so I’ll put these numbers in to show that even at the slowest built ship Da3ron should’ve made better time. They are on average about 3/4 as fast as caravels, so at maximum might reach 6.75mph, 112mi/d, so 3.7 days or about 90 hours at maximum speed

Average conditions:

The average sailing ship could go around 5knots/5.75mph; this translates into 73 hours or 3 days 1 hour on average

Average speed for a caravel is 4.5mph or 90-100mi/day. The lower range indicates this trip would take 112 hours, or 4 days 16 hours; the upper range is 101 hours, or 4 days 7 hours on average

Average speed for a galley is about 3knots/3.45mph; this translates to about 122 hours, or about 5 days on average

Slow conditions (slowest possible with still-prevailing winds):

As explained before, going less than 3.5knots/4mph via sailing ship meant generally unfavorable winds. Assuming the absolute slowest, the ship could expect to make the trip in 105 hours or 4 days 9 hours

Using the ratio that a galley is about 3/4 the speed of a caravel, its slow speed might be 3mph, which translates into 140 hours or 5 days 20 hours

In conclusion, assuming that Da3ron did not stop at any harbors along the way and traveled at a consistent pace, he should have arrived in King’s Landing within one week, not two, of learning of Aegon’s death. Even at the slowest pace, taking the slowest method of water transport, the trip does not equal 6 full days of travel. 

It’s possible that, like Corlys Velaryon at the 101 Great Council, he brought the full Dragonstone fleet to King’s Landing to support his claim to the throne if he feared it was in danger (which makes sense in that he took so long to arrive, but was “swiftly crowned” after), but that would’ve lengthened the trip to 6 days at most (since a navy can only travel as fast as its slowest ship, the galley), and certainly not to nearly two weeks, since time is clearly of the essence in thwarting a potential coup. The idea that it took so long to prepare such a navy after hearing of Aegon’s death seems like a stretch considering the old king’s slow physical decline (see below)

A more benign argument is that after he reached Sharp Point, he did stop during the night, but assuming a night is 8 hours, that means even if he stopped every night along the journey (a ridiculously inefficient plan that practically defeats traveling by water, but to stretch out the time let’s pretend he might’ve done it) would’ve made the trip 76 hours or 3 days 4 hours at the fastest, and 172 hours or 7 days 4 hours at the slowest. Again, even at the slowest pace, with the slowest method of transportation, and now with long stops, it still would’ve taken barely more than half the time Yandel noted Da3ron actually spent to depart Dragonstone and arrive in King’s Landing. And how many days did he really need to pack his things and leave? I doubt nearly a week was really necessary...

Of course, that Da3ron might’ve taken a slower ship and stopped every night from reaching Sharp Point on ignores why he’s journeying to King’s Landing in the first place: his father just died and he is going to be crowned king, unmistakably the most important event of his life. As the crown prince, he has access to the fastest ships and most experienced crew. This is no time to stop to rest and leave the realm without a king (especially if you believe that others are plotting to take the throne, as Da3ron’s actions after arriving regarding Daemon Blackfyre and his father’s Small Council indicate). There is no technical reason why a journey that should’ve taken 3-4 days instead took nearly 2 weeks. The only possible reason for such a massive delay is a character-based one: that Da3ron did not wish to arrive in the capital so soon. Waiting that long almost undoubtedly meant he was not there for the funeral (given Aegon’s condition at death, it makes me think he was buried shortly after; in addition, the news of the death would’ve had to have reached Da3ron before he could depart, which would’ve taken 1-1.5 days by raven), which would’ve been the best opportunity to show filial piety, or at least pay respects to the old king from the perspective of a successor. Da3ron wore his father’s crown allegedly to prove his legitimacy, but the gesture seems rather empty after taking so long to come to the capital that he missed the funeral, and the coronation itself was the only event described as “swift.” It makes it seem as if he did not care for his father, purposely avoiding the capital until all mourning was done and then claiming his crown. This might have been the case given they were estranged the last years of Aegon’s life, but no matter his personal feelings, it would’ve been politically wiser if he were to come to King’s Landing as fast as he could, especially given the doubts of his legitimacy and his paranoia over claimants to the throne. The very tense succession of Viserys I to Aegon II officially took place on a single day; understandably such a short passage of time wasn’t possible in Da3ron’s case, but potential problems in a succession makes Targaryens act faster, not slower.

What makes matters worse is that Aegon’s death was obviously not sudden in the manner of Viserys II’s. TWOIAF’s description of his demise includes, “he was grossly fat, barely able to walk, and some wondered how his last mistress—Serenei of Lys, the mother of Shiera Seastar—could ever have withstood his embraces.” Serenei was Aegon’s mistress for at least a year, and undoubtedly a man who was barely able to walk does not have long to live. Toward the immediate end “his limbs [were] rotting and crawling with fleshworms”; there was even debate over this condition: “the maesters claimed they had never seen its like, whilst septons declared it a judgment of the gods” in addition to palliative care “Aegon was given milk of the poppy to dull his pain, but elsewise little could be done for him.” It seems like the final stage of Aegon’s illness could’ve taken weeks or even months, if there was time to discuss its cause and for worms to start eating his rotting limbs, or for final treatment and a damning decree to be issued. The health of the king is obviously politically important, especially to his heir, so I think it’s unlikely Da3ron wouldn’t have known about this final illness. Certainly by the time Aegon was unable to rise from his sickbed, Da3ron should’ve been able to tell the end was near; he very well could’ve reached King’s Landing before Aegon’s death, let alone before his funeral. That could have altered the course of Westerosi history if he arrived in time to contest the will that decreed all of Aegon’s illegitimate children be legitimized. 

It’s important to note that it’s never explained why Da3ron was unable to undo Aegon’s deathbed decree. The Greens were able to successfully contest Viserys I’s will that Rhaenyra succeed him and instead crown Aegon II, once they got the majority of the Small Council on their side. In real life, Henry of Blois was able to release his brother Stephen and the rest of the barons from the vows they swore to uphold Empress Matilda’s ascension to the English throne, on the grounds that her father king Henry was wrong to make them swear the oath because it would threaten the stability of the kingdom (in addition to bribing the royal steward into alleging that the old king had changed his mind about the succession and nominated Stephen instead, which at least worked for William the Conqueror regarding Edward the Confessor’s will). It would’ve been even easier for Da3ron to contest the will because Aegon was in horrific pain due to ill health and given milk of the poppy, a drug that is known to “fill one’s head with clouds”; Da3ron could’ve said that Aegon was not in his right mind when he made the will and that any deathbed decrees should be discarded. If only he had come early enough to King’s Landing to plead his case before Aegon’s death, or failing that, to try to force a reversal through the High Septon or the royal steward shortly after, things might’ve gone better for him later in his reign.

To conclude what is a much longer meta than I expected, Yandel claimed that Da3ron arrived in King’s Landing from Dragonstone within 2 weeks of hearing of his father’s death. Through estimating the speed of certain ships and the distance between the two castles, we can determine it should have taken at most 6 days and in all probability more like 3-4 days if he conducted himself with any sense of urgency. But instead, he chose to arrive so far after Aegon’s death that he probably missed his funeral, which, coupled with the haste with which he was crowned, shows a lack of respect for a deceased father that goes against the teachings of the Faith of the Seven, the moral authority of Westeros (and probably fed rumors of his illegitimacy). Even worse, the nature of Aegon’s illness was so slow that Da3ron could’ve made it to King’s Landing in time to change or contest his will if he had bothered, thus getting rid of his potential rival’s legitimization. I can only infer that Da3ron’s actions were not motivated by political necessity (and in fact could’ve hurt him politically and socially), but by hatred for his estranged father. I don’t blame Da3ron for loathing a man who abused his mother and tried to start an unprovoked war with his wife’s family. However, I don’t think the characterization of him putting political necessities above personal feelings can hold water, at least where his own are concerned (the feelings of others under his guardianship, such as those of Aerys I, and perhaps those of Princess Daenerys and Daemon Blackfyre, might be different matters). Nor do I believe that he should get a pass for making politically unwise decisions due to personal grudges when Aegor Rivers, who also had long-term vulnerabilities (disgrace at 2 weeks of age, the execution of half of his family at 6 years, invited into a court that hated his family...and that’s before the Blackfyres start getting cruelly murdered) is reduced to a one-dimensional villain for behaving similarly.

[butterflies-dragons]

I was reading about Marillion in AWOIAF and there it's mentioned that after throwing Lysa from moondoor, Petyr told Sansa that it's Marillion killed her. Didn't Sansa witness Petyr throwing Lysa? Plus she was horrified about her lying about his complicit in Lysa murder.

Following Lysa's orders, Marillion escorted Sansa from her room to the Eyrie's High Hall, where Lysa attempted to throw Sansa through the Moon Door.

Before LF's intervention, Marillion was playing music to hide Lysa's intentions to kill Sansa.

Littlefinger let Lysa sob against his chest for a moment, then put his hands on her arms and kissed her lightly. "My sweet silly jealous wife," he said, chuckling. "I've only loved one woman, I promise you."

Lysa Arryn smiled tremulously. "Only one? Oh, Petyr, do you swear it? Only one?"

"Only Cat." He gave her a short, sharp shove.

Lysa stumbled backward, her feet slipping on the wet marble. And then she was gone. She never screamed. For the longest time there was no sound but the wind.

Marillion gasped, "You . . . you . . ."

The guards were shouting outside the door, pounding with the butts of their heavy spears. Lord Petyr pulled Sansa to her feet. "You're not hurt?" When she shook her head, he said, "Run let my guards in, then. Quick now, there's no time to lose. This singer's killed my lady wife."

—A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII

As you can see, Sansa knows that LF killed Lysa, she witnessed it, but immediately after killing Lysa, LF told Sansa that she should tell everyone that it was Marillion who killed Lysa.

[nooneeverlookedforagirl]

Could Rhaegar Have Gotten An Annulment?

Follow up to “Could Rhaegar Have Two Wives?”

I was writing a reply to a comment on my fic (shameless self promo here), and decided to share it. Again.

We don't have a lot of information on annulment in Westeros. Robert presumably would have killed Cersei once Renly revealed the twincest, and out of all the Targaryens we know of, roughly 102 of them (source), only one ever set aside his wife.

That king’s name is Baelor, and this man locked his former wife in the Maidenvault along with his sisters to prevent them from tempting men at court. Why could he get an annulment?

"I said some words and gave her a red cloak, but only to please Father. Marriage requires consummation. King Baelor was made to wed his sister Daena, but they never lived as man and wife, and he put her aside as soon as he was crowned." ~AFFC Jaime IV

A second example of this is Sansa. Tywin thinks that Sansa could have her marriage set aside. Why does he think this?

She is old enough to be Lady of Winterfell once her brother is dead. Claim her maidenhood and you will be one step closer to claiming the north. Get her with child, and the prize is all but won. Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"

"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is." ~ASOS, Tyrion IV

A third example, Tommen and Margaery.

Jaime sighed. "Then let them wed. It will be years before Tommen is old enough to consummate the marriage. And until he does, the union can always be set aside. Give Tyrell his wedding and send him off to play at war." ~ AFFC, Jaime I

A fourth example, in the opposite direction, but particularly important in that involved the future king, and even it could not be set aside.

In 240 AC, a year after Prince Duncan's marriage, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Shaera each eluded their guardians and were secretly married. Jaehaerys was fifteen and Shaera fourteen at the time of their wedding. By the time the king and queen learned what had happened, the marriage had already been consummated. Aegon felt he had no choice but to accept it. ~ AWOIAF

So if a marriage is consummated, then it cannot be set aside, and if a marriage isn’t consummated then it can be set aside.

Rhaegar and Elia clearly consummated the marriage, because they had two children. 

There was no one, not Aerys whose granddaughter “smelled Dornish” or Tywin who wanted his daughter in Elia’s place, that claimed Aegon and Rhaenys were not Rhaegar’s children. Indeed, Rhaegar says that Aegon is "the prince who was promised" and says that "his is the song of ice and fire."

Argue for a moment that Rhaegar could claim that not only were the children not his, and he’d never touched Elia. He would have needed to find the "High Septon or a Council of Faith" to set aside the marriage. Rhaegar went from Dragonstone to the Riverlands to Dorne, and the High Septon is in Kings Landing.

Say he stopped by to get the marriage annulled before setting off? Well, another problem. The High Septon can say no.

"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is." ~ASOS, Tyrion IV

Tywin would simply have told the High Septon not to let Sansa have an annulment. 

We also know that the High Septon can say no to the king.

Having been wed in 160 AC to his sister Daena, the king proceeded to convince the High Septon to dissolve the marriage. It was contracted before he was king, he argued, and had never been consummated. ~TWOIAF

Who was the king? Aerys. Not Rhaegar. I don’t see him being pleased about the High Septon setting aside a marriage that he had brokered, and Aerys’ wrath is well known. What High Septon wants to be burned alive?

This narrows it down to a few options:

1) Rhaegar claimed Elia's children weren't his and that he had never slept with Elia, and convinced the "High Septon or a Council of Faith" of this behind his father’s back and against the Mad King’s wishes.

2) Rhaegar never got an annulment.

We can argue about Rhaegar perhaps lying to Lyanna about being married, or both of them being on board with no marriage, but the end result is the same.

If you want to argue that they might have married under a weirwood in the sight of the old gods, I suggest you look to the marriage of Maegor the Cruel and Alys Harroway. Queen Visenya married them in a Valyrian ceremony, because the Faith refused to marry them. 

Check out the prior post in this series to find out why that was a bad idea.

[willfulbeautya]

Lyanna Stark and the Possibility that she’s a Greenseer

I would like to preface this headcanon by saying that this is borne out of my own imagination + analysis of the text + hours of conversation with @prphecybound​. There’s a very high possibility that I’m completely off the mark and of course, you don’t have to agree with me on this. But as far as this interpretation is concerned, I’m adapting this headcanon in all of Lyanna’s main verses, and things will have to change. I may have to drop threads which are no longer relevant because of the changes introduced by this headcanon, so I thank you for your patience and understanding in advance.

TLDR:  Right before the tourney at Harrenhal,  Lyanna Stark had a run in with a wildling who possessed the greensight. This was the first time she heard of the “prophecy” and she was told to “follow the path of blue roses”. During the tourney, after he found out that she masqueraded as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Rhaegar Targaryen crowned Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty and laid a crown of blue winter roses on her lap. On the way home to Winterfell from the Riverlands, the She-Wolf contracted a fever. It took some time for her to recover, and she had fever dreams and green dreams while she suffered through her illness. The green dreams would continue even after she regained her health. 

I’m in danger of repeating some key points that I’ve already discussed over and over like a broken record, so I’m just going to list them and you can ask me questions about them ( if you have any ), in which case I’ll probably talk your ear off:

PS. You can skip through the bullet points to get to the important parts!

Lyanna is the Knight of the Laughing Tree. I think this is as good as canon at this point.

Rhaegar found Lyanna out. As a sort of acknowledgment, he crowned her The Queen of Love and Beauty by the end of the tourney at Harrenhal. It doesn’t go any deeper than that ( a.k.a. they’re not secretly in-love,  sorry ).

The Mad King also found Lyanna out and ordered for her arrest. I’ve written extensively about this here, but pretty much the mad king was triggered by the KOTLT and couldn’t let shit go.

In connection to the above, here are some of the popular beliefs about Lyanna and her character that I don’t really buy and will NOT be adapted into this interpretation:

Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar to escape the betrothal with Robert. While I don’t think Lyanna was the most eager to be married to Robert Baratheon ( or to be married at all ), I also don’t think she ran away with Rhaegar to escape her betrothal. She could have run away, point blank period. But with a married prince? I don’t think so. ( Considering too, that Lyanna’s initial reservation against Robert was his inability to keep to one bed. Based off of that alone, I don’t think Lyanna would willingly participate in infidelity of any kind. In this separate essay I will – )

Lyanna was not dutiful. True to a degree, if only because she was not raised to be dutiful, exactly. She won’t inherit Winterfell, unlike Brandon. The expectations of her were quite different compared to the expectations of her brothers. Her purpose was to marry and have children and that’s that. So yeah, she’s not exactly as committed to duty like Brandon could have been or Ned was, but that didn’t take away from the fact that she adored her family and she had a strong moral compass.

Lyanna was selfish. I see this around a lot and it’s the most mind-boggling of all. This was the girl who, at 14 years old, was ready to throw down against three grown squires to defend the honor of her father’s bannerman. She later fought in a tourney and won, and asked the lords that the squires served to teach them manners. If she would go that far to defend a sworn bannerman to House Stark, who was not just being bullied but also discriminated upon because of his culture, then I’m pretty certain she’s the type to stand up to injustice without regard for herself. In that similar vein, I don’t think she would besmirch her family’s honor on a whim, knowing how seriously she took the meaning of that honor as made clear by her defense of Howland Reed. 

Now that we’ve gotten all of those out of the way, it’s time to dive in into the void.

As is already previously established by canon, all Stark children are wargs. I know this mostly pertains to the six children of Eddard and Catelyn Stark, but there’s literally no reason why it could not extend to the generation of Starks that came before them. Brandon and Lyanna for example, possess the legendary “wolf-blood” of the Starks of old, and thus are tied very closely to the Stark mythos of being descended from the First Men. According to AWOIAF, “Greenseers had the greensight and were wargs as well.” While not all wargs are greenseers, we have evidence in Bran that the greensight is definitely alive and well in the Stark line ( and in the North, as evidenced by Jojen Reed, a crannogman, and Brynden Rivers a.k.a. Bloodraven, whose mother was a Blackwood ).

Following this logic, I don’t think it’s extremely far-fetched to say that Lyanna might have been a greenseer. The ability in Bran was triggered by his fall, whereas it almost came too easily and too naturally to Rickon. Rickon and Bran shared the same dream about Ned’s death ( which they predicted even before Maester Luwin made the announcement ), and Rickon also knew when Catelyn and Robb left that they would never see them again.

In Lyanna’s case, I don’t think she knew what she was ( I don’t think the Starks ever realized how closely they were tied to what’s left of magic in the world ). She knew she was said to have the wolf-blood, and I’m guessing that that had something to do with her temperament ( a trait she shared with Brandon ). By all accounts, Lyanna was wild and brave; she thrived off of independence and did not do well with restrictions. She rode horses like she was half a horse herself according to Roose Bolton, and maybe that’s because she understood horses like no ordinary human could?

I’ve already headcanoned that my Lyanna was a warg, so I’m going to take it a step further and say that she was a greenseer as well. No, she’s not as good at it as Bran, mainly because it was not a talent she cared to develop. She knew how heavy the weight of the prophecy hung on Rhaegar’s shoulders, and she would not want to carry the same burden.

I need to write a drabble on this and I will, but basically, here’s how I see it playing out: right before Harrenhal, during the year of false spring, Lord Rickard Stark’s men caught wildling raiders not far from Winterfell. Now we all know the northern tradition that whoever passes the sentence should swing the sword, and as Lord Paramount of the North, Rickard had to be the one to do it. Lyanna and Benjen caught wind of this execution and went ahead of their father’s men to see the wildling raiders for themselves before they went on the chopping block. This was mostly at Lyanna’s insistence, and Benjen was happy enough to follow where his elder sister lead.

When they reached the field where the execution was to be held, they saw the wildlings manacled inside a cage ( not unlike the one that held Jaqen H’ghar and his two companions ). One of them, a wilding woman, saw Lyanna and Benjen and knew exactly what they were: wargs. But that was not all. Lyanna caught much more than a passing interest from the wildling woman who beckoned the she-wolf closer. Against Benjen’s wishes, Lyanna went, and when the woman seized her arms, the wildling’s eyes rolled back inside her head so far that all Lyanna could see were the whites of her eyes. And then the woman spoke:

Beware, child. The endless night is near and it will swallow the world. You must bring forth the song of ice and fire and pay in blood to stay the cold that never ends. You must follow the path of blue roses where it leads. One day the mountain will crush the sun and the lion will bleed the streets dry. One day –

( This sucks but bear with me. I’m not George R.R. Martin )

Before the wildling could utter more, Lord Rickard arrived and caught Lyanna speaking with the wildling. Needless to say, he was not happy, and grew ever more incensed when the wildling leaned in and whispered something in his hear. Lyanna never figured out what the wildling said and her father never felt inclined to share. Lord Rickard also decided that since she and Benjen were already there, they might as well stay and watch the execution. They both did. They held hands, but they didn’t look away.

Anyway, cut to Harrenhal. Lyanna was just given a crown of blue roses by Rhaegar Targaryen, and the wildling woman’s words were ringing in her ears. On the journey back to Winterfell, Lyanna who rarely ever got sick, caught a fever along the way and started to have odd fever dreams. In these dreams, she saw a castle burning. Dragons were flying all around, trying to escape the fire, and in the middle of the chaos was a girl dancing round and round, with flowers in her hair.

Lyanna dreamed of the same castle, now in ruins, and a short woman with floor-length white hair stooping against a cane. A harp was playing somewhere and the woman was weeping, calling out for someone named Jenny. She also dreamed of a sandstorm, with the air whipping around her face in tumultuous gusts, smelling of blood and roses.

The she-wolf dreamed of a great many things, not everything she remembered when she finally recovered from the fever. Afterwards, the dreams would continue, and though not as vivid as before, there was always a sense of urgency in them that she could not explain. Sometimes she would dream of a night sky, viewed from below, as though she was lying down on a stone floor looking up. In the days leading up to her encounter with Rhaegar Targaryen in the Riverlands, she would dream of the Isles of Faces, which was where she knew she had to go to, to make sense of whatever was happening to her. She would meet Rhaegar there eventually, and along with him, the Ghost of High Heart, whom she already had visions of prior ( the short woman with floor-length white hair ).

It was the Ghost of High Heart who eventually convinced Lyanna of the role she had to play in fulfilling the prophecy of The Prince Who Was Promised / Azor Ahai. Combined with the words of the wildling and her own green dreams, it became difficult for her to deny that she was somehow involved in the foretelling that Rhaegar was so obsessed with. The Ghost also repeated something the wildling had said to Lyanna prior, which was that she would “pay in blood” to fulfill her role, which Lyanna interpreted as her imminent death.

You might be thinking “well, that’s stupid” and yes, it kinda was. The thing with Lyanna though was that she really did not have anything going on for her aside from a betrothal, which she was not feeling every keen about. This prophecy though… was something bigger than herself, and was something which can potentially save the realm from an ominous threat. The KOTLT incident showed us that Lyanna had a strong sense of morality, and also a penchant for risky yet grand gestures of bravery. Saving the world was the kind of thing that she would not even think twice of doing, no matter the cost to herself.

Things Lyanna did not foresee: Brandon’s reaction to the news that she was missing and Brandon’s fast assumption that it was Rhaegar who took her. At most, Lyanna expected they would notice her absence and would assume she ran away from her betrothal, but for her brother to accuse the crown prince and storm the capital while doing so… did not occur to her. Also, IMPORTANT: Lyanna and Rhaegar had no idea about Rickard and Brandon’s death until after the Battle of the Bells, when Gerold Hightower finally found them in TOJ and asked Rhaegar to return to King’s Landing. By this time, Lyanna was already pregnant.

Whether or not Rhaegar and Lyanna were right about the prophecy… doesn’t really matter here. They could be completely wrong. Dany could be the TPWWP and not Jon. Heck, it could be Aegon ( if he truly was Aegon lmao ). Basically, this was just how they interpreted the prophecy, and they both paid in blood for it. Since they’re alive in mine and Bubbles’ main timeline verses, the blood is of their loved ones, which was infinitely worse for both of them than if it were their own blood.

Is this a ship now? Well, no. At least not during TOJ, and heck, not many years after that. Lyanna was miserable in that tower and I can’t imagine Rhaegar was all too happy either. They’re doing what they thought they had to do, and Lyanna was going into it thinking she would die. All things considered, that might have been her preferred outcome, now that she knew just how much blood she had to pay to assume the role that would make the prophecy come true. The only real consolation in the aftermath was Ned’s forgiveness and the fact that Jon was kept alive because her brother loved her enough to give up his honor for her. But even then, it was a bitter consolation, and Lyanna would spend all her life trying to make up for her mistakes. 

[sarcasticsweetlara]

Lysene Fashion and Culture: Serenei of Lys and House Rogare

I like to think the Lysenes emulate Old Valyria by combining their own culture with the culture of Old Valyria.

Like clothing, my headcanon is their clothing is a combination of Assyrian Clothing and Ancient Greek Clothing.

At the same time I think even if the most Valyrian descendants are spread there they always have people from other ethnicities.

An example would be Serenei of Lys, if she indeed had the green eyes Shiera had, then it could be either because Serenei's family is mixed - whether it is her dad's side or her mom's side - or because of a magical reason (like the icy blue eyes of the others and Brynden Rivers' red eyes due to the connection of the First Men to the Children of the Forest) as Serenei was said to have been a witch, or because it was a simple genetic effect of blue eyes being able to be passed down as green to the descendants of people with blue eyes.

Also, Serenei could have ended up living with the Rogares who lived in the Perfumed Garden and that's how she eventually met Aegon IV.

...

Also, it would have been lovely to see Larra Rogare as queen and present herself at court with her own mix of Lysene and Crownlands' fashion.

Larra would have had an iconic style and I think if given the opportunity of trying to get used and accommodate at King's Landing Larra Rogare would have had a better impact on the raising of her children (my theory is that maybe Larra had no option but leave if she was raising her children under the Lysene culture and that Larra was already ill so she wanted to get a better treatment as obviously she did not trust the Maesters and needed more aid) as she would have been there for them and they would not have felt they had overcompensate by being too religious like Aemon and Naerys or just indulging in sloth as Aegon IV did, and even if Naerys did indeed show religious leanings anyway Larra would have accepted it, as unlike the Westerosi the Lyseni do not have trouble with their people worshipping different gods and yes that involves the Faith of the Seven, and in exchange Naerys would not have had to rely so much on the Faith and stood up for herself more.

In an effort to do homage to her family, Larra's elder sister Marra could have taught her children the dialects of Low Valyrian (Lysene, Tyroshi and Myrish) and eventually her great-granddaughter Aelinor spoke them as well as High Valyrian.

As it was said Marra had books, and Lysara seemed to have been politically active and ambitious, Larra also may have been an erudite who liked to learn more about the world and that was made the Maesters dislike her as well as Larra challenged everything they represented.

Granted, they were robbers but that does not mean all of them were ignorant; Larra's hardship with the Westerosi Language was due to it being so different to the Valyrian language, remember the languages Larra was able to speak were dialects of Low Valyrian.

Also, her wedding with Viserys must have happened when they deemed he was old enough to have children by seeing if he ever had 'certain dreams' during the night as his marriage with her had not been consummated until 134 A.C. when Viserys was twelve; Lyseni weddings surely involve Assyrian elements as well as Greek elements, Larra and Viserys' marriage was accepted because they had shown with Larra's pregnancy that Viserys was now able to have children and at that time they needed an heir - yes, I know Little Laena was technically the heir of her uncle Aegon III, but his regents did not like Laena's parents: Baela and Alyn.

Larra even wanted a Blessing Ceremony for her brother-in-law.

And in the end, her descendants became kings and queens.

[horizon-verizon]

In history, culture, custom, language, and religion, these three cities have more in common with one another than with any of the other Free Cities. They are mercantile cities, protected by high walls and hired sellswords, dominated by wealth rather than birth, cities where trade is considered a more honorable profession than arms. Lys and Myr are ruled by conclaves of magisters, chosen from amongst the wealthiest and noblest men of the city; Tyrosh is governed by an archon, selected from amongst the members of a similar conclave. All three are slave cities, where bondsmen outnumber the freeborn three to one. All are ports, and the salt sea is their life’s blood. Like Valyria, their mother, these three daughters have no established faith. Temples and shrines to many different gods line their streets and crowd their waterfronts. Yet the rivalries between them are long-rooted, giving rise to deep seated enmities that have kept them divided, and oft at war with one another, for centuries—to the undoubted benefit of the lords and kings of Westeros, for these three rich and powerful cities, if united, would make for a formidable and dangerous neighbor.

A World of Ice and Fire, pg 261

[dyannawynnedayne]

Magic User Slapfight: Round .5

Serenei: art by warp-speed, AWOIAF Page

The Waif: art by The Mico, AWOIAF Page

BRACKET LINK

[janiedean]

masha-russia(.)tumblr(.)com/post/106925435839/daenerys-is-azor-ahaiprince-that-was-promised What do you think of this?

oh god

the old gods save me

a) last time I interacted with that person she was arguing theon deserved getting castrated and tyrion would have deserved it too because she appreciated *sexual purity* in people and all the while she liked tywin. k. I mean I don’t hold that user’s opinion in very high regards

b) I had an entire meta post about why jon was AA wait a moment let me find it and see if I can c/p it

AH OKAY HERE IT IS I’m putting it on the side

grrm usually does a thing which is, ‘when he TELLS YOU SOMETHING REALLY REALLY HARD AND MENTIONS IT ALL THE TIME that thing usually doesn’t happen’.

case: every death not on page and everything cersei says. affc: OH HEY DAVOS IS DEAD HIS HEAD IS HUNG OUTSIDE MANDERLY’S CASTLE adwd: hey bro we killed someone else in your place you’re going to find rickon byadwd: hey mance is dead!jon: …. I’m not sure it’s himadwd: SURPRISE IT WASN’T HIM ACTUALLY!cersei: I’M SURE THIS THIS AND THIS HAPPEN BECAUSE I SAY SOactual reality: all the contrary happensarya: well I left sandor dying on the road he’s definitely a gonermonk on the quiet island: I AM STILL ALIVEarya: sometimes I still hear his voice& so on.

now, never mind tyrion’s sage advice about prophecies (Prophecy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head). What we have in the text is dany seeing R and elia and the following dialogue happens:

“Aegon. What better name for a king… He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire”; “There must be one more. The dragon has three heads.”

AA prophecy:

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him

+

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

+ tpwp prophecy as melisandre & others put it

You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the worldfails with you.

+

Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy. Not that I would trust it.

+

Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.

now, either you think that AA is a red herring and tptwp is the real deal or you think tptwp = AA, the prophecies say exactly the same shit about either, so it’s a lot more likely that AA is tptwp and/or viceversa, or that AA is a red herring but tptwp is not. that stated, in order:

prophecies can’t be trusted 100% and no one interprets them well, which is what tyrion’s implying and what everyone does in these books since until now no one’s ever manage to understand one correctly

if GRRM tells you that someone is SOMETHING without immediate proof/verification, he’s most probably lying or red herring you around

R has elements from which he could deduce that if he didn’t have three children for three dragons the long night would come, which was why he started getting ready for it and was that bent on having three children. now, what is he saying in that vision? that AEGON is tptwp. now, as per above, if R thinks aegon is tptwp he’s definitely wrong because aegon is not and whether the one with jonc is fake or not (I think not) he is not AA or twptw. one out. rhaenys is dead, regardless. and what was R’s deal? getting the third head of the dragon in the world… for which he started a civil war. ops. let’s leave it one moment. anyway, R’s prophecy says for sure three things: the apocalypse is coming, you’ll need three dragons to stop it with three riders who should all be targs, and one of his children is AA/tptwp.

obviously, we could say that dany works anyway because she’s a targ so maybe R’s prophecy was wrong. which is most probably half true, because dany’s of course one of the heads of the dragon. but, she isn’t tptwp. why?

because she’s already been brought up by the narrative and everyone that the narrative explicitly brought up is NOT for now tptwp. it’s not aegon. it’s not stannis. and since in affc grrm took the time to put his red herring around with the language question and so on… sorry but it’s not dany. if she was dany, no one would have brought her up as an option, because that’s… not how the narrative works. like, literally, in asoiaf I’ve never seen anything that explicitly stated (that wasn’t dany owning dragons obv but that was the established plot point from the beginning) actually become a thing. you get hints. you get parallels you can theorize on. but like, if the narrative tells you davos dies offscreen davos doesn’t die offscreen, if cersei thinks marge is the younger and beautiful queen she’s wrong and if aemon thinks tptw is dany, she’s not. it’s a red herring. why?

interlude: there’s a thing named occam’s razor which basically says the simplest explanation is the most likely and if your theory needs to be extra elaborate to work, it’s probably not true.

if we follow occam’s razor (which a lot of narrative does because the more convoluted is a theory the least likely is the reader to buy it), we know: that tptwp has to be a thing, that he/she is related to rhaegar and should be one of his children, that he/she has to die among smoke and salt and blah blah blah and that prophecies are half-trained mules and that in order to have three kids R started a civil war, so that third kid must be damned important, and that it’s not R’s second child because R thought he was, and that it can’t be the first since he’s dead.

now: who is actually R’s offspring which has not been mentioned openly in the book until now, who has never ever ever brought up by the narrative itself as a possible AA/ptwp candidate, who has showed up in melisandre’s flames when she asked to see AA thinking she’d see stannis, and, most important, whose canonical death PERFECTLY matches the AA prophecy if you don’t interpret it literally?

The dead man was Ser Patrek of King’s Mountain; his head was largely gone, but his heraldry was as distinctive as his face. [from awoiaf: Patrek is clean-shaven and windburnt. His knightly raiment are of white and blue and silver, his cloak a spatter of five-pointed stars.] Jon did not want to risk Ser Malegorn or Ser Brus or any of the queen’s other knights trying to avenge him.

Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun howled again and gave Ser Patrek’s other arm a twist and pull. It tore loose from his shoulder with a spray of bright red blood. Like a child pulling petals off a daisy, thought Jon. “Leathers, talk to him, calm him. The Old Tongue, he understands the Old Tongue. Keep back, the rest of you. Put away your steel, we’re scaring him.”

Couldn’t they see the giant had been cut? Jon had to put an end to this or more men would die. They had no idea of Wun Wun’s strength. A horn, I need a horn. He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. “No blades! ” he screamed. “Wick, put that knife …”

… away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. “Why? ”

“For the Watch.” Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. [NOTE: tears are made of… salt…] “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold…

… and, who has the show confirmed as being r+l?

guys.

it’s jon.

it’s always been jon and it’s always going to be jon on his own. dany will be important af, whoever else rides the third dragon is gonna be hella important (I have a theory which is probably wrong but whatever grrm will have to pry it from me), but tptwp/AA is jon. and R said ‘his is the song of ice and fire’, not ‘the song of ice and fire is for tptwp and AA’. like. it seems fairly obvious textually to me that there’s no way it’s anyone but jon snow, who by the way in theory has had his nissa nissa moment with ygritte if you take it sorta literally and in a lot other ways if you take it very imaginatively.

you’re totally welcome to think it’s both of them, but according to me it’s just him, never mind that dany is all targ, he is half stark and half targ…. so…. ice and fire. like. it’s so trasparent I just can’t think that there has to be something even more complicated to it. *shrug*

GUYS.

guys.

if AA is a red herring or not, or whether AA = tptwp….

it

is

jon

snow

like he died, he came back to life, he’s rhaegar’s son, it’s confirmed, it’s

jon

snow

[samwpmarleau]

Talking of white Dayne's and by extension the skin colour of the dornish and rhoynar. what did you think of the art in AWOIAF. Nymeria looked as pale as Mors, and Cassella Vaith looked Targ!!!! The yellow toad was in a picture with Rhaenys, and yet you'd never know they were from a different peoples.

I think the quality of the art was exceptional, but I, too, am disappointed with the lack of skin tones they have. Almost everyone in that book is like the choices you get for studio apartment walls: “ivory” or “off-white.” Cassella’s depiction is especially bizarre, because the Vaiths are Dornishmen from the deserts, which means they should be the darkest. The text itself says desert Dornishmen are “burned brown by the hot Dornish sun,” yet Cassella is described as “a willowy maid with green eyes and pale white-blond hair.” So either one of Cassella’s parents was from Lys or something or she was dark-skinned just with light eyes and light hair. Still, I feel like neither of those scenarios were necessarily the case, it was just GRRM wanting Aegon IV to have had an affair with a Dornishwoman, but a “white” Dornishwoman.

Mors was white, because before the Rhoynar arrived the Dornish were Andal and First Men, but Nymeria definitely was not. Fortunately, most people fancast a POC for her and the Martells. But still, fans shouldn’t have to be retroactively fixing things — AWOIAF is the official companion book, yet the art in it seems to have a physical aversion to portraying accomplished nonwhite peoples as nonwhite.

Same shit different day, I’m afraid.

[sarcasticsweetlara]

I know Sonoya Mizuno is a good portrayal of Mysaria, but I think Aline Fontes is a good fancast of Book! Mysaria in her expressions and beauty.

Aline has that catlike vibe I always associated with Mysaria who is unapologetic and does not feel guilty for being ambitious.

Also, since Aline is Brazilian she would obviously have a different accent to the rest of the British actors, similar to Mysaria who is a Lysene living in Westeros.

[horizon-verizon]

All this is also true of Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh, those three quarrelsome daughters whose endless feuds and struggles for dominion have so often managed to embroil the kings and knights of Westeros. These three cities surround the large, fertile “heel” of Essos, the promontory that divides the Summer Sea from the narrow sea and was once part of the land bridge that joined that continent to Westeros. The fortress city of Tyrosh stands upon the northernmost and easternmost of the Stepstones, the chain of islands that remained when the Arm of Dorne fell into the sea. Myr rises on the mainland, where an ancient Valyrian dragonroad meets the tranquil waters of a vast gulf known as the Sea of Myrth. Lys is to the south, on a small archipelago of islands in the Summer Sea. All three cities have claimed part (or all) of the lands between them, which we know today as the Disputed Lands, for all attempts to fix borders between the domains of Tyrosh, Myr, and Lys have failed, and countless wars have been fought for their possession.

A World of Ice and Fire, pg 261