#but bc im kinda seeing the sentiment that like. youre misogynistic if you dont like her or hate that part of her character?

[yuridovewing]

if i may be a little mean… i think the reason spottedleaf’s feelings come across as a “retcon” is because the erins didn’t care enough about her on her own to outright have her say “yes i love fireheart back”

[tweedfrog]

im sorry, but reading ur last couple posts it kinda sounds like you think Ned should have been more overtly racist and bc he wasn’t grrm is racist, but on the flip side giving arya prejudice thoughts also makes grrm a racist and a bad writer? like grrm for sure has dodgy bits but you’re giving him a bit of a no win scenario here. if he had made the targs black like originally planned do you think that would have been better or worse? (1/2)

ok im going to address this point by point because there is a lot of reaching and misunderstanding here

1. I am not here to present a ‘win’ scenario for GRRMs writing. I am discussing the shortcomings of the way he writes racism and yet uses racist tropes. A lot of these are as you state ‘no win’ scenarios because he decided to craft a world where racism exists while having extremely few characters of colour in important positions, AND while using racist tropes. There are many no win scenarios simply because of this tension.

2. I dont want Ned to be a more vocally racist character? And please point out where I said that Grrm was racist because Ned wasnt portrayed as having overt anti-dornish sentiment? I stated that because GRRM created a world where racism exists everything now has to be analysed bearing that in mind. It’s the same as stating that because misogyny exists in universe male characters are possibly (and likely) somewhat misogynistic and their interactions with with women and the way they treat female characters must be analysed in such a way.

Me stating that anti-dornish racism could have been a possible reason why Ned reacted less vehemently to the deaths of Elia and her children is me analysing it within the frame-work that GRRM set up. I’m using this to point out that when white authors add fantasy racism into a story they dont see the raicst implications of what they are writing because they dont understand the way racism impacts almost everything in real life.

For example in our world when non-white children or women go missing or are murdered their deaths are much less publicized than when white women or children get murdered or go missing. So yes racism affects the way that people are treated in such scenarios and when you decide to include fantasy racism in your story you have now included all of this extra stuff and need to do work to make sure that what you are writing does not perpetuate or enforce racism.

3. I literally never said arya having racist thoughts made GRRM a racist and bad writer. I have no clue where you got that. I used Aryas remark to highlight how anti-dornish sentiment clearly exists in the North because 9 year old children dont develop racist ideas in a vaccuum.

4. Where did I ever state that everything that happens to the martells was a micro aggression? I’m also confused as to where you got the word “micro” from??? Because idk about you but things like characters not really caring about the rape and death of a non-white woman and the deaths of her biracial children, a child being shunned because they “smelled dornish” and dornish women being hypersexualised in the narrative are some pretty macro aggressions.

5. Finally you deciding to ‘not discuss the essoss stuff’ is missing one of the main points of what I am trying to say. GRRM’s writing isnt racist because sometimes bad things happen to the Martells. The combination of his writing of the dothraki as savages with no introspection when compared to the free folk, the brutal killing of many martells for shock value, the contrast between the way he portrays Lyanna and the way he portrays Elia, the exotic/erotic trope he uses when writing dornish women, the fact that he hasnt named the princess of dorne while all her male counterparts have recieved names AND backstories and the fact that he made a white character the centre of the essoss plotline and a whole host of other decisions combine to make his writing....kinda racist. If it happened one time it may be a coincidence. If it happens about 10 times its a pattern.

Would it be racist if the Starks were written as inuit and then split up? Probably - given the history of murder and brutal seperation indigenous families have faced! Would making the more visibly indigenous stark children plainer while making the more white passing stark children better looking be racist? Probably - considering the way that eurocentric beauty standards are still upheld! With GRRM his issue is that he doesn't use 1 or 2 racist tropes in isolation. That could be a mistake. He uses several in succession.

Regarding the Targaryens being Black I think that if he wrote them in exactly the same manner (unlikely given how he treats other characters of colour) it likely wouldnt be racist but that the fandom probably would take it as an excuse to be racist.

So now that weve gotten through all of that straw-man criticism about my “take” I’m actually going to suggest some ways that he could have still written about fantasy racism without accidentally perpetuating it

1. If he is going to brutally kill off Elia he needs to AT LEAST have more discussions surrounding her death. Who Elia was as a person (dont just make her a sad cardboard cut out - I want to see some background on who she was outside of being an abandoned wife and mother). One story about Elia by Oberyn isnt enough. I also want to see more societal shock about Elias death because theres a weirdly small amount. The rape and murder of the crown princess shouldve been an extremely huge scandal and should have horrified many more people.

2. Theres no real way to kill off two non white children and have their white sibling be a prophetic hero without dicey implications so Aegon needs to survive and be the actual Aegon and not a secret blackfyre. We dont know if he is a secret blackfyre or not so this may just be a case of the fandom taking an excuse to be racist and running with it

3. Have more Dornish characters that dont die brutally for shock value (Elia, Oberyn, Quentyn). Furthermore when you only have 2 povs of dornish characters,,,,and you kill one of them off, yes that is not a great look

4. Dont introduce the only WoC pov in the whole damn book nipple first and as a blatant play on the brown seductress when she has legitimate political concerns and greivances

And thats only the dornish characters! With the dothraki and most of essoss just.....anything aside from what he’s done would be better. But of course im sure none of this is actually racist writing decisions. No its simply complex characterisation of course!!1!