#but he’s treated as a joke because he’s divorcing Shiv

[tenebrous-academic]

Okay but real talk —Tom becoming the American CEO. Nero finally pushes his wife down the stairs and is crowned Emperor. He succeeds at eclipsing the Roy family in a move that could only have been accomplished with Sporus at his side providing support and legitimacy. Because who in that fucking family ever looked out for him except for Tom?

[romulussy]

could you talk a little bit about why the kids are so estranged from Caroline? I never quite got the full extent of their relationship. I get that she was absent and emotionally unavailable, but what makes her a worse option for the kids when compared to Logan of all people?

i do think the absence is a part of it. imo caroline wants her children to love her and choose her, but i don't think she knows what to do with them when faced with the reality of being their mother. you can see it in return; she wants them there, and then when she gets them, she leaves. and it's implied a few times that this is a pattern ("spotty mother", "the family way" etc.), so i imagine that after a while the shtick gets old. particularly when you compare it to how the kids see logan as more or less omniscient.

but really, i think the biggest part of it is the logan roy of it all. there's this harriet walter interview where she talks about people looking at caroline and seeing her as a perpetrator, rather than stopping to consider what it might've been like as a woman trying to hold her own in a marriage with logan. and i do think that's true. like, logan wields so much power within the family dynamic and after what seems to have been an incredibly messy divorce, the estrangement doesn't surprise me. i don't think it matters if caroline is better or worse than logan, because ultimately the kids don't get to choose. they're stuck in the middle of their parents' mind games. sarah says in a post s3 interview that shiv in the last two eps is coming to the realisation that logan got to keep them not because he loved them more, or because he was a better parent, but because he wanted the win. they didn't matter, but making sure caroline lost did, etc. and again, i think that's true. if logan wanted to let his children go, i'm sure caroline would have got them in a heartbeat. but he clearly likes them close, and more than that, i'd say that he actively fueled the rift between the kids and caroline to, like. prolong the win, i guess? i mean, i don't think caroline just gave up after logan got custody. there are several instances that hint to her trying to keep up a relationship ("i moved back to bloody new york so i could see you, and i never fucking saw you!", the christmas "that was several times" discussion in return, the morocco kidnapping bit from the scripts, etc.) and i can 100% see logan wielding his power over his kids to ensure that they choose him, over and over again, regardless of how awful he treats them.

i also think there are different things that affect each individual relationship. we joke a lot about how caroline doesn't care about ken, but with kendall, i think he's just always been logan's. he's the chosen one, claimed and tainted and alienated from birth. i don't think caroline ever even tried with him.

with roman, i actually don't think they're estranged. at the very least, it's not like it is with ken and shiv. i'd even say that in a lot of ways, roman is caroline's first "win" in her marriage. second born spare, free for her to claim and all that, you know? it's a moot point eventually because logan sinks his claws in the same way he does with all his children, but i dont think roman ever stops being mummy's little boy. he's so forgiving of his parents and so willing to accept the scraps of affection that shiv and ken decline, it's no wonder that they appear to have the most contact. i've said this before but where his siblings resent caroline for leaving, i imagine roman was just happy whenever she came back. she doesn't have to try too hard with him and it allows them a certain conviviality that doesn't exist elsewhere in the family dynamic.

with shiv and caroline... where do you even start lmao. i think caroline sees shiv as logan's similarly to how she sees kendall as logan's, but while it's pretty much whatever with ken, with shiv she considers it a betrayal (think of return's "a bit of solidarity. twenty years too late, but never mind."). the choice might've been taken from shiv as a child, but it's no wonder she prefers to be estranged as an adult. when it comes to caroline and her kids, she and shiv have the deepest and most complicated relationship; there's this unique hurt and unique understanding between them and it's why their relationship is also the most vicious, which is to say nothing on how logan's influence has seeped into the crevices of it. frankly i think shiv just doesn't want to have to deal with it.

[catinfroghat]

I've joked a lot about tomshiv divorce era but honestly I don't see it happening so here's my actual predictions for tomshiv going forward (This is looonnngggg btw so if anyone actually reads all of this I love you):

Shiv will not tell Kendall or Roman that it was Tom who sold them out, that would require her admitting that she made a mistake and would make her feel too vulnerable, which she is not ready to acknowledge, especially in front of her brothers who have been consistently misogynistic towards her throughout season 3. Imagine the shame of having to admit as a woman in the Roy family that you were brought down due to marital issues.

She may try to keep up a facade with Tom and pretend she doesn't know it was him to try to keep the upper hand, but she is firey and impulsive so will probably let it slip at a time she knows will hurt him just for a taste of revenge.

Neither Tom nor Shiv will want a divorce but one or the other may threaten it as a form of leverage because they know the other person needs them to keep their current position, so may bring it up to get what they want.

Tom needs Shiv to stay close to Logan. Despite everything, Logan does love his daughter and would not stand to see her publicly humiliated by a divorce so soon after they got married (Remember their wedding was only around 3 months ago). It's also unlikely that Tom would be considered for a high position unless he had ties to the family, so he knows that if they were to divorce he would be out on his own.

Shiv needs Tom because she is acutely aware that her status as a woman means she will be judged for her personal life. Admitting that her marriage is a failure will reflect poorly on her and she knows it, however unfair and sexist it may be. I also think that she will use Tom's new position as Logan's favourite to her advantage in some way, maybe trying to get insider information from Tom. This could backfire if he figures out what she's doing or refuses to comply.

They may come to a new agreement where they treat their marriage more like a business arrangement than ever, with Shiv perhaps even agreeing to having children in return for them keeping up the facade of a functional relationship in public.

I think them having children is likely at this point, but I think it will be uncomfortably transactional. If Shiv carries or is already pregnant (which I doubt), it will solidify Tom's "villain arc" so to speak because forcing Shiv into such a misogynistic role when she seems so against being a mother would be undeniably awful, and considering raising a child in that environment is arguably worse.

BUT I also think a Shiv pregnancy would have unfortunate connotations in such a male dominated show, so I think the writers would be wary going directly down that route. It would also limit the amount of things Shiv could do in the story if she is pregnant, such as a possible return to her past as a party girl and addict as she spirals. Given the compact timeline of Succession, she would probably spend the rest of the series pregnant which would be shitty for a lot of reasons.

So I think it's probably more likely that they consider using a surrogate. It could double as an interesting exploration of how money and power can be wielded and the ethics of wealthy couples paying for someone else to go through the process of pregnancy and childbirth on their behalf so that they don't have to sacrifice their own lifestyle. Since the timeline is so short, the baby will probably not appear on the show but will function more as a symbol of the cycles of abuse in this family continuing long after the show ends.

If a split does happen, it will be negotiated in private, and will be a separation rather than a divorce. They may even live separately for a while, but they will continue to act like a couple at public events and maybe even within the family.

Both will use their private separation as permission to have gay sex (this is more a hope than a legitimate prediction but come on... at least one of them has to)

Anyway I think the healthiest thing for them both would to get a divorce and that's why it must never ever happen. There is much more failmarriage toxicity coming our way and it's going to be delicious.

[sigurdjarlson]

I want to see tom try to win greg back after going too far. I want too see him jealous and possessive, sure, but I'm also just really curious to see how far is too far for greg. he's been harassed, manipulated, assaulted by tom and he just bounces back. he's blackmailed and manipulated tom to, don't get me wrong. I just want to see the greg who got mad at the roy's for the sprinkles thing get mad at tom -- seriously -- for like...anything? and I want all of this to happen while shiv files for divorce because she's my skrunkles. tom's breakdown era on my s4 wishlist

I would genuinely be so interested to see a scenario like this play out and I don’t think it’s impossible it could happen in canon honestly

Greg does seem to bounce back but given how many times Nicholas has talked about the resentment he feels for Tom because of his treatment of him (and their unbalanced power dynamic) I don’t think he’s as unbothered as he comes across

Tom has treated Greg unarguably pretty horribly. Greg isn’t innocent either but Tom has been downright abusive at times. Greg uses that word himself actually to Logan. “Abusive workplace environment” or whatever

The selfless gestures that come after some of the worst of it don’t erase that.

And I think back to the infamous “Greg thinks he could do better than Tom” interview with Nic. Here’s the thing..when it comes to how horribly Tom treats him sometimes? He can do better. Greg doesn’t deserve that. No one does. If he was willing to leave the Roy bubble he could find someone better.

I of course want them to be toxic and codependent together so i don’t actually want Greg to go anywhere lmao. However would I blame Greg if he did? No.

Tom has gotten better but he’s still awful sometimes and sadly who knows if it’s enough to erase the shit he’s already done.

And also I remember Nic talking about how Greg looks at Tom who’s marriage is failing and who’s desperate and broken and he thinks “I don’t want to end up like you” He sees Tom for the mess that he is.

“He’s just scared and lonely I think..”

I think it’s also important to remember the one interview where Nic says there is a deep love there underneath everything…but also that resentment might overpower that.

Greg does love and care for Tom canonically but his feelings for Tom are also mixed with a lot of resentment and anger.

If Tom doesn’t continue to treat Greg more equally and just generally better. Greg is going to bite back. Whether it’s just by bailing completely or screwing him over I don’t know.

And Tom and him have been improving on the relationship front but Tom has a tendency to revert back to old behaviors when he’s angry or hurt.

The best example I think is the finale. Greg says no to Tom at first pretty much and it’s because of the way Tom asked. “I need you to be my attack dog” and the expression Greg makes and the way he unenthusiastically repeats it tells you immediately he’s not happy with the comparison or the proposal

He does not want to be Tom’s dog anymore. (The dog metaphor/motif returns)

He wants to be Tom’s equal and I think sometimes that’s hard for Tom to stomach because putting them on truly equal ground means giving Greg the power to leave him.

And he might.

Greg gets a lot of shit for his “I’m kind of a big deal now” but I don’t think people understand what he’s doing there. He’s not bragging for the sake of bragging. I don’t think he even really believes it. He’s negotiating. He’s saying no I’m worth more than being your attack dog, offer me something better or I’m out.

That’s what you do in this world. You build yourself up as more important than you are so people offer you better options. Doesn’t matter if it’s true. We’ve seen Tom do it a lot. He’s very peacock esque that way.

And Tom initially doesn’t respond well to Greg doing that. He immediately reverts to kicking the dog. “You’re a fucking joke.” And that genuinely pisses Greg off you can tell.

What Tom is doing is not a genuine moment of making sure Greg isn’t getting too cocky..which is how some people paint it? it’s to make him feel small and worthless and dependent on him again so he doesn’t leave or reject him.

He slips back into his worst habits for a moment. He’s trying to put him in his place. Beneath him. (It’s why he doesn’t acknowledge that he arguably did WORSE in front of congress)

You can tell it’s not this “I’m worried you’re getting too cocky” moment because he Tom is visibly angry when he realizes Greg is beginning to reject him. He says this out of anger. He lashes out.

If Greg knows he deserves better than to be treated the way that he does he might leave.

Except his bullying doesn’t work this time. Greg gets pissed and is still resistant to the idea.

So he has to change tactics and he does by telling Greg what he can gain from saying yes. He does when he reminds him that he’s the only one who’s looked after him

Greg only says yes when he’s at least kind of assured he’s not going to be Tom’s punching bag/lackey anymore. However whether Tom can stick to that I don’t know because like I said it would mean giving Greg the power to leave. (And Greg has already tried to leave which shows that he was pretty done with Tom’s shit even back then)

This is a dog who is tired of being kicked by everyone around him.

Tom could very well push him to his breaking point eventually. How he’d do that I’m not too sure. Maybe he starts treating him like he does in s1-s2 again (and it’s worth noting that even though he’s been somewhat better he still doesn’t treat him that great. He insults him constantly and I don’t think Greg appreciates that kind of “joking” around)

If he tries to interfere in Greg’s career? That might hit be the last straw because Tom has shown himself to be selfless when it comes to Greg sometimes but safe room shows there’s a limit.

A healthy reaction would be to let Greg go. He says explicitly he’s not happy here. Tom can’t let go of him and that’s why he flips the fuck out.

I don’t think Tom will ever be able to “if you love him let him go” because the harsh truth is he needs Greg.

He gets Greg to stay by praising him and offering him more but at first Greg is adamant on leaving to the point of blackmailing him (which he genuinely didn’t want to do)

The point im trying to make is Tom could still push Greg to his breaking point. Him betraying Tom next season seems almost inevitable (even though I think it’s overdone and too obvious but oh well) as Greg continues on his corruption arc

He might just do it out of greed too since this is a corruption arc and Greg has proven himself to be very self serving and focused on his own survival.

But also..I think people forget that it could be Tom who fucks Greg over too?

He’s capable of it. We know he is if he feels hurt or rejected. (Or maybe even if he has to choose between everything he’s built and being the new Logan and Greg. I can’t say with 100% certainty which he’d choose)

And the thing is Tom would expect Greg to stick around after because Greg does tolerate his shit a lot of the time. He’s tolerated Tom being downright horrific to him.

More likely though I think is he panics because Greg is trying to leave for whatever reason (or he sees Greg is going in another direction) and completely ruins/sabotages his prospects to keep him by his side.

Him sabotaging his career just so he won’t leave him might be the last straw.

It’s also worth noting I think it’s very likely he’d do the same thing if Greg got into a relationship. I could see him breaking them up if he realizes he’s losing Greg.

Thats a betrayal in a way. It’s selfish. Especially if it’s a situation where Greg finds himself actually happy.

In the end Tom is not a good person. Nether is Greg. They’re both getting progressively worse. So they both might screw each other over in the end. Who knows

The thing is….that doesn’t mean they don’t love each other. Because succession is all the more tragic when you acknowledge these characters do love one another and hurt each other anyway. God most of them don’t know how to love in a healthy way.

They’re all horrible people in the end though. There’s good there too in most of them (i don’t want to be too reductive) but it’s metaphorically beaten of them. There’s no room for love or morality in the life they lead. It can’t exist there. That’s the point of the show in a lot of ways.

Got a bit off topic there because I have been thinking about how the show will end for all these amoral bastard characters a lot lately and it’s definitely not the happy ending my soft heart wants aaa…that’s what fanon is for I suppose ;)

But yeah I think it’s plausible that Tom could eventually push Greg to a breaking point. (And I think losing Greg would absolutely destroy Tom)

Personally I’d love to see Tom broken and more or less begging Greg not to leave..and I’d be interested to see if he can convince him to stay once he’s hit that point

[lewyn-martell]

I'm the Ken & Shiv anon from last time...

I'm still in awe at the way E3 played out??

I was initially shocked that they were willing to do that to each other, but then Shiv did tell Tom that taking the fall for Logan was a good idea; and when Tom told her he was probably going to jail, she reacted nothing like she did at the end of season 2.

She likes her executive position at Waystar Royco, and judging from the almost friendly banter she had with Nate, she likes it better than politics.

And Ken likes being in the spotlight (Ewan's judgement of him was very accurate), and he genuinely sees the late-night-show styled roasts as playful jokes (since they don't hit him where it hurts and instead treat him as a generic "rich white man who wants to kill his dad") to the point that people around him are uncomfortable to watch the "roasts".

I was more surprised that Ken casted the first stone, mostly because I sort of knew Shiv had it in her to gut her brother. I also knew Ken is a very vindictive person, down to what he told Rava about the divorce lawyerings & bringing the team to her house in S3E1 / what he did to those girls after Angela rejected his VC offer & told him off / what he did to Logan after Logan tried to scapegoat him, but I didn't think what Shiv did warranted something like this: she rejected his offer, yes, but so did everyone else.

Somehow Ken perceived it as such an insult that he was willing to do this, and their conversation at the beginning??? "I think I'm right--I am right" followed by his half-assed apology, and then responds to Shiv's proposal for a truce with "Look at this. It's you now," and ends the convo with "I'm sorry for you, Siobhan"... Like, just because she refuses to kill Logan with him??

With Ken IGNORING HIS LAWYER'S ADVICE to storm in WR to play a certain Nirvana song to sabotage Shiv's speech and the late-night show thing, I've 2 observations:

1) I'm starting to see who he interrupts & treats as disposable and who he doesn't, the latter being family / useful friends / WR related people / women he's infatuated with at the moment.

2) Ken seems to like new-age tech much more than traditional media, especially the ones with a liberal view and are therefore antagonistic toward him & his family. He apparently saw Shiv as a through-and-through liberal and thought that she's somehow abandoned her ideals by defending Logan??

This line of thought clears up a few things: 1) he agreed with what Shiv said in Argestes and liked the idea enough to actually execute it, thus the "I'm the real you", 2) he sees Shiv as someone willingly taking Logan's side and someone who KNOWS the scale of the crimes and Logan's culpability (again, projecting much?), 3) he's feeling vengeful because he thinks that she's a hypocrite & she has no reason to be on Logan's side when she could be on his side.

And oh boy, Shiv just had to spell it out for him just EXACTLY why she didn't want to be on his side in her open letter. I don't know why Ken thought it was a good idea to do this to her when Shiv obliterated him in S1E2 when he asked her "what do you have against me" when she wouldn't back him for the CEO position.

Now the whole world knows why, and any potential liberal goodwill toward him is tainted by Shiv's words.

In a way, Shiv is Ken's foil and Ken loves her for who she is (and who he couldn't be) and Shiv hates him for who he is (and who she is not).

(also, I actually have multiple comparisons to draw between Rava & Shiv and how Ken treats them, but I think that's just me going off the deep end)

Hello hello great to see you again. As someone who is also in complete AWE of how the episode played out, I'm more than happy to try and get my thoughts in order to touch base with you.

I want to start by saying how much I adored the war-like aspects of the episode, with high tension surrounding the "battles", invasion of territory, tactical moves and strategy in general, I mean... Everything. Shiv is glowing with the opportunity (like you said, I also agree she enjoys it more than politics. This has always been framed by Logan as the the fight of their lives, after all), Kendall is still high in his histrionic meretricious manic phase and has Shiv as the central enemy (after dad, who is looming over them all), so not only I was ready for it, I was expecting it to hurt even more. We sure as hell know Kendall is vindictive and we also know Shiv can go low low to match it (god, I love them).

And yeah, about what you said that "it's not like what Shiv did warranted for it" like I know right?? But none of these kids' reactions are proportionally right and what we would expect more well adjusted human beings to act like. Shiv only said no, but it hurt him so much he not only said what he said that night, but he also channelled his other hurt feelings about his image that had nothing to do with her into fucking up his lawyer's whole strategy to go bomb his little sis' big day. (Yes, I definitely agree that the rich white man with daddy issues doesn't hit where it hurts the most, but I also think it still bothers him. He wants to be the hero of the people and he's trying to project the image of "any press is good press because they're talking about me" for his friends, but I couldn't help but see that it got to him, with how he was reacting in that party scene when he turned on the tv. I mean, he immediately thought he should go on the show and that sounded an awful lot like he wanted to defend himself. He even felt the need, maybe out of nervousness, to feel the "temperature" of the writer's circle right before it to see if they would lay it hard on him and tried to protect himself by going all "hurt me!!" to make people think he's not getting affected.)

Oh, I absolutely adored (and was tortured by) the fact that these kids just can't get in the same wavelenght (i.e. Shiv proposing truce and trying to reach common ground and Kendall answering with conflict). Shiv is at a supposed dawn of her time and both doesn't want to give it up and can't have the perspective Kendall has about her proposal (since he was in this position before) and Ken just doesn't give it to her because being real is a sin in this family. I think this disconnect and pattern of awful communication is a big part of Kendall rejecting all possibility of collaborating with Shiv on some level (like, any sane person who knew their sister was almost caving would try and leave the page open to try again. Armed with the right words and right time she could be his and he definitely needs it. But not Kendall, though. These people are egocentric and delusional), but also, yknow, the ever present vibe of permanent conflict between these kids and that he felt betrayed by her, specifically, saying no to this.

And it does intrigue me, how Kendall was so sure he would be able to get her on his side. What I imagine, and these are only half-formed thoughts, is that the liberalism of it (yknow, what you said about him possibly thinking she is a hypocrite betraying her so-called values that he "shares") for him and between them is only the surface of the tip of the iceberg. Because let's be honest how much does Kendall (and Shiv for that matter) care about it? Everything on the show points to "not much" being the answer, but there is a gray area of him (them) caring at least a little bit but not knowing how to care for it and, more importantly, doing it for the wrong reasons. Logan's conservatism is bad for business, Kendall is doing his sacred plan and he wants his ascension to be clean and up to the times (although it is true that he might think he genuinely cares to lie to himself about his true reasons for doing his move and as a crutch to help him keep saying he is doing the right thing). I can only see the view of this "betrayal" he felt that we're hypothesizing be about soiling their potential "climb towards the new age" and how, even though he saw some of the same drive in her, she is still under dad.

And it's actually great of you to mention the dinosaur cull line in Argestes because I immediately thought "where is my parallel gifset of Shiv saying that and Kendall saying back in season 1 about 'the dinosaur doing one last roar before the meteor wipes him out' in reference to Logan"?? He might have been dad's little bitch at that point, but I believe this moment, among various others, made him see his old self in her and thus we get to this ongoing shared identity struggle and "I'm the real you" "Sure, and I'm the real you" "Do you even care or it's all just ego?" "It"s you this time" and his certainty he could persuade her. And the pettiness and rancour comes out of her betraying the ideal that past Kendall would have, in his head, jumped to get a hold of (even though he completely ignores it took him a lifetime of unfulfilled number one boy feelings, years being jerked around the world with no reward, and the right self-excuse of being concerned about Logan's health before he decided to rebel).

I'm with you that it was naïve of him to not expect her to come against him full force after what he did. Kendall always thinks he can take far more than he can actually swallow or just doesn't think things through (another thing in common with Shiv hsbahahsbsha) and then the consequences of his actions come falling down on him. It remains to be seen how effective Shiv's letter will be with how the episode ended, but I think it's safe to say it's somewhat of a major hit for him, even though not quite as much as the FBI knocking on Waystar's door (lmao that was so funny).

Let me finish this by saying that while I'm completely on board with them destroying each other and doing some angry self-recognition through the other and continuing their clown on clown violence and mind games.... I keep wondering ever since I saw that trailer of Roman saying "I hear you tried to killed dad again, fatty. Do you have a fetish for nearly killing dad yadda yadda" who he is talking to. The editing of course says that it's Kendall and honestly it might very well be and it's what I'm thinking it will be. But there is a tiny tiny part of me that thinks it could be Shiv, especially when I think "who, between them, makes more sense for Roman to call fatty??". But this is more wishful thinking than an actual theory I'm behind (especially because it's not like Roman's insults have actual meaning). While it would be incredible to see a team up, what we are getting already makes me plenty happy.