#but i can't really explain why mythal would either

[zaahvi]

dirthamen and ghilan'nain's intertwined history — a theory

edit: if you read this, please check out the post-veilguard update i gave here!

the relationship between dirthamen and ghilan'nain within the lore has always been unclear but incredibly fascinating to me, and after these past few months of being haunted by it i think i've finally figured it out!

in this *very* long post i'll be breaking down their connections and piecing together theories to make sense of their dynamic and history, investigating the more puzzling elements of dirthamen's lore, and exploring how this all ties into the evanuris' eventual betrayal of mythal. i've kept this theory free of veilguard spoilers so everyone is able to read it!

—————

the connections

the reason why dirthamen and ghilan'nain's dynamic is often overlooked is because most of the ties they have to each other can be easily missed or are sometimes misinterpreted. there is only ONE codex entry that explicitly mentions them together, and while that is already widely discussed, there are many smaller connections between them. so here is everything i've found!

the bear mural:

this mural in dai shows a white antlered figure embracing a green bear. to me, it looks like the bear is being protective of the figure (judging by the fact that they are reaching up to it). the art style looks elven and it's used in a few locations, such as the skyhold barn...

...aaand at calenhad's foothold in the hinterlands:

and well well well, that's dirthamen's statue seated just above it...

so this mural seems to depict dirthamen as the bear and ghilan'nain as the antlered figure, specifically how the dalish may depict them in their legends:

dirthamen's sacred animal was the bear (x), (source is a dalish elf, this info is not found anywhere in elvhen lore)

ghilan'nain had "snowy white hair" and became the first halla (x), (source is a dalish elf, this info is not found anywhere in elvhen lore)

it should be said, the amount of actual elvhen lore we have is very limited, so these could in fact be true and not just misinterpreted by the dalish. though they've been twisted, dalish legends came from somewhere, and especially in ghil's example it makes complete sense to portray her as a woman with antlers and white hair when her sacred animal has antlers and white fur. and while dirthamen is mentioned only with corvids in ancient elvhen lore, they are mentioned as seperate entities than him, so the bear could in fact be the representation of himself. in any case, i'm proceeding with the assumption that this mural is indeed supposed to portray them.

so, as the figure is reaching out to the bear herself, i'm ruling out any possibility of the bear being hostile towards her. it looks like the bear is protecting her, from what? or who? above them is the moon, perhaps it's an indication that mythal is watching, and/or that the bear is protecting or hiding the antlered lady away from her?

———

mosaics in the lost temple of dirthamen:

the design of dirthamen's temple is really fascinating. there's elven imagery scattered all throughout, but mosaics of himself are completely missing. there are, however, mosaics of two other elven gods...

there are five green mosaics of falon'din... and two red ones of ghilan'nain. next to one of ghil's there is also this:

falon'din being there makes sense given that he and dirthamen were "twin souls", which we're not entirely sure what that meant, but either way they had some sort of deep bond. ghilan'nain, however... and this specific mural... less so. this art in particular really reminds me of this description of the bas-reliefs from the horror of hormak:

"The halla were different, wrong. They had too many horns, for one, and a harder, more rounded look than normal. A look that was almost insectile. And the horns themselves were longer and ridged. Organic, somehow."

so, why would dirthamen have put her mosaics in his temple? clearly they had some sort of connection, close enough that he decided to honour her within his own place of worship. you don't just put some other god in your temple for no reason, you know?

on why dirthamen's mosaics are missing:

my best guess is that they were defaced/taken down afterwards, either by his own priests or by invaders. the codex entry for the lost temple mentions madness caused by the secrets they held...

"We will not have it, will not have it! The secrets are madness in our ears, but they are ours The Highest One cannot take them from us. Only Dirthamen, our Keeper, only he And if he does not take the secrets They are ours forever."

...and unless dismembering your high priest was a holy tradition to dirthamen then yeah, it doesn't seem like they were entirely sane. for whatever reason, in their madness, they could have torn down the mosaics.

though invaders seem more likely here, simply because they would have just... done a better job defacing mosaics if they truly wanted to. and to remove only dirthamen's mosaics, and not falon'din's or ghilan'nain's.

"They will come for us in the night Those who could steal the words from our lips And our god no longer rises to our defense."

this part of the codex implies that there were attacks on the temple by those who would steal the priests' secrets, and that dirthamen would defend them against these invaders. when he was locked away, he couldn't defend them anymore, and so these attackers could have easily gotten in. interesting... breaking in and removing his mosaics but not falon'din or ghilan'nain's would indicate a hostility towards dirthamen himself, but not the other gods...

———

the sinner:

by now we've all seen this widely discussed codex entry:

"His crime is high treason. He took on a form reserved for the gods and their chosen, and dared to fly in the shape of the divine. The sinner belongs to Dirthamen; he claims he took wings at the urging of Ghilan'nain, and begs protection from Mythal. She does not show him favor, and will let Elgar'nan judge him." For one moment there is an image of a shifting, shadowy mass with blazing eyes, whose form may be one or many. Then it fades.

so apparently "taking the shape of the divine" was a crime bad enough that it counts as high treason and mythal referred judgment to elgar'nan for it, which is REAL bad. this sinner claims ghilan'nain urged him to do it, but why? one would assume the sinner didn't survive elgar'nan's judgment, and if you really wanted someone dead there would be easier ways to kill them... so to me this reads as an attempt to sow discord, either between dirthamen's worshippers or to paint them as troublesome and dirthamen himself as irresponsible in the eyes of the other evanuris? at least that's my takeaway here.

———

the next few are going to be smaller hints that basically rely on subtler location design and stuff like that. i could just be picking at nothing but it's worth mentioning either way!

ghilan'nain's grove and the crow fens:

there are two inaccesible areas in the exalted plains for which you need to complete war table missions to access: ghilan'nain's grove, and citadelle du corbeau. ghil's grove specifically leads you to two other areas: the dead hand, and the crow fens.

the crow fens are interesting because of dirthamen's connection to crows and/or ravens, as written in his dalish legend and by two of the runes from his quest:

"The revealed symbols show what appears to be Dirthamen, the elven god of secrets, on the back of a large crow."

"The revealed symbols show two ravens. One grips a heart in its talons, the other a mirror."

seems like the ravens are fear (heart) and deceit (mirror) while the crow is... idk, just some Big Bird he has. i guess.

so a location named after one of dirthamen's favourite animals right next to ghilan'nain's grove — and let's also go back to that other unlockable area, citadelle du corbeau:

there he is again! the structure is elven, maybe the citadelle was once a place of worship dedicated to him? it's interesting that it's in such close proximity to ghilan'nain's grove, and what's also interesting is the massive statue of fen'harel watching over the entire area:

finally, the description of the quest Rifts in the Fens, which covers the fade rifts in the general ghilan'nain's grove area, says this...

"Active Fade rifts has been spotted in Montevelan Village, Dirthamen's Grove, and the Crow Fens."

seems like it was mistakenly left in, but it definitely implies that ghilan'nain's grove was originally named dirthamen's grove. alright...

———

elven pantheon codex entry placements:

also a smaller one that may mean nothing, but anyway. each of the elven god codexes are scattered through the exalted plains, with four of them being located in the ghilan'nain's grove/crow fens region. these are:

Dirthamen: Keeper of Secrets & Falon'din: Friend of the Dead, the Guide — both found within the dead hand puzzle area

Andruil: Goddess of the Hunt & Ghilan'nain: Mother of the Halla — both found within the crow fens area, on halla statues standing opposite each other

these two pairings found in the same zone is really interesting, especially that dirthamen's is in an area closer to ghilan'nain's grove and ghil's is in the crow fens. :)

———

mosaic placements in the temple of mythal:

most of the elven god codexes in the temple of mythal are scattered about, with the exception of three who are bunched up in the same room together:

elgar'nan, dirthamen, and ghilan'nain.... interesting bunch to put together considering there are no documented interactions between them so far, save for the sinner codex (and ghil & elg now i guess....) in addition, there's also two golden owl (usually representing falon'din) statues flanking dirthamen and a mosaic of fen'harel to the left of elgar'nan, but those don't grant any additional codex entries.

the reason i find these placements interesting is because of the placements of the falon'din and andruil murals in the temple. they're both on either side of the door to the inner sanctum and both of their codex entries mention mythal fighting them. it just seems very deliberate to me, so maybe this is too.

———

the varterral:

i've seen a few theories about the varterral being one of the creatures that ghilan'nain created - valid, by the way, since it does look like a mix of creatures and something she may create. however...

"...On the fourth day, Dirthamen heard them. He whispered into the mountains and the fallen trees of the forest gathered, shaping an immense and agile spider-like beast. It was the varterral. With lightning speed, vicious strikes, and venomous spit, it drove back the serpent. From then on, it was the guardian of the city and its people." — Codex entry: Varterral

here dirthamen is credited with the creation of the varterral. but it's worth noting that, 1. this is a dalish tale so it may have happened differently, and 2. it's not stated that he created the first varterral or anything, just that he made one. regardless, he made a creature, and an awfully ghil-flavoured one at that.

—————

theories on dirthamen & ghilan'nain's relationship

so what we know now is that they're placed next to each other a lot, there's a mural of them embracing, ghilan'nain was clearly important enough to dirthamen for him to put her mosiacs in his temple, and she may have turned against him later.

firstly, an idea: in ancient elvhenan, a lot of the population were enslaved to the evanuris, whether directly or indirectly through a noble that served them. we don't know if the nobles, or any of the chosen, also had vallaslin like the slaves did. but consider that ghilan'nain was once a normal elf; she became an evanuris later. so the two possibilities here are: 1. she was one of these nobles or chosen, or 2. she was a slave. either way the question remains: which god does someone who makes monsters serve?

the most likely suspects:

andruil: in dalish lore ghil is often mentioned as andruil's favourite, her beloved, a huntress who served her, etc. in the elvhen story of her ascension, it is andruil who approaches her with the offer of godhood. it's possible ghil was making monsters for andruil to hunt (she is specifically mentioned in the story as hunting them,) or perhaps andruil simply intervened when the monsters were getting out of hand first, and their relationship came later?

dirthamen: ghil was a scientist... she made monsters yes, but she conducted experiments and collected research (remember the taken shape?) — she gathered knowledge. that seems just like the kind of thing dirthamen would encourage and value: maybe that's why her mosaic is in his temple, and that's what the bear mural means — he was like a patron to her, she reached to him for assistance, and he granted it?

as for the servant/slave question, i personally think she was not a slave, just based on all she was able to do (she had free rein of all those thaigs, seemingly got subjects delivered to her, had that massive gemstone wall — basically, it's clear her experiments were funded) although i do think it would be super badass if she was a slave beforehand, as well as kinda tragic. like... she broke free of her bindings and became a goddess, but eventually turned into those who once oppressed her... sigh anyway

onto some ideas/possibilities:

ghil served andruil, and made monsters for her to hunt. the connection to dirthamen isn't clear.

ghil served dirthamen freely, and he supported her research. after she ascended, she turned on him for unknown reasons. her relationship with andruil began after ascension.

ghil served dirthamen, and he supported her research, but she did technically "belong" to him. after she ascended, she turned on him, perhaps as revenge? her relationship with andruil began after ascension.

ghil wasn't aligned with any god, and could have just been a noble with her own funds. she could have interacted with and formed relationships with multiple gods, as she wasn't bound to a single one.

i personally think number 2 is the most probable here. going from dirthamen -> andruil rather than andruil -> dirthamen makes more sense, considering that the ghilandruil mural from the missing was clearly drawn after ghil's ascension (since she has her headpiece) and also, from what we've seen of ghil so far, she seems very proud of her creations. why would she want them hunted? again, the bargain she made was to destroy her creations in exchange for godhood. it was a sacrifice.

finally, considering her resources it makes more sense for ghil to have been a servant rather than a slave. what remains now is the question: why would she have turned on dirthamen?

a reason for betrayal

between the missing mosaics in his temple, ghil convincing his followers to commit crimes, and the stabbed fade statue, you can probably tell by now that something's different about dirthamen. remember the fen'harel statue looking over the citadel? there are more potential connections to solas if you look close enough:

fen'harel statues in the lost temple:

dirthamen's mosaics in the elven mountain ruins (note: these are the only evanuris mosaics in the entire area, not counting the forgotten sanctuary):

mosaics in the forgotten sanctuary (on each wall: dirthamen - mythal - fen'harel - falon'din - dirthamen)

symbol of the two ravens in the forgotten sanctuary armoury

so what does this all mean? well u/eravas on reddit had a theory that these are hints that dirthamen could have potentially been helping solas and mythal with the rebellion. remember how morrigan said it was weird the temple of mythal had fen'harel statues? and the mountain ruins were a sanctuary, so why keep the mosaics? (there are also a few other hints eravas mentioned that i missed, but these are the most important!)

and remember how i said that attackers on the lost temple of dirthamen could have torn his mosaics down specifically and left the others? and i came to the conclusion that they must have had a grudge against dirthamen specifically. well, there is some other defaced imagery... in the form of these decapitated statues of mythal:

so, why would dirthamen have helped solas? i don't know, but we don't really have explicit answers as to why mythal helped him either. and then, why did solas trap dirthamen along with the others? well, there is one last thing...

the statue in the fade: the final piece of the puzzle

and now, the part that lives in my head rent free!

if kieran exists in your worldstate, then during the quest The Final Piece you will find him and flemeth in the fade, and above their meeting ground there is a massive statue of dirthamen with a blade in his back, with blood pouring out of the wound and his eyes:

alright so to be clear this takes place in the raw fade, not the "dreaming" fade; we know the fade usually reflects the dreamer, but know less about the "raw fade" when we aren't dreaming. it's complicated, but from the random statues and scattered memories we see in the fade during here lies the abyss, it's safe to assume that some of the aspects of the dreaming fade (such as it being ever-shifting and a reflection of the waking world) are also present in the raw fade. therefore, i'm guessing that this statue's presence here is mirroring something that happened in the waking world... so what is it?

i think there are two possibilites:

someone betrayed dirthamen, and this captures the moment of his betrayal

dirthamen betrayed mythal, and this statue is a "reflection" of this

while 1 is more of a direct mirror and is more likely, we don't have that much info about who could have done that to him. yeah, ghil maybe, but she was only stirring the pot and this seems more... severe. 2 is what i believe due to flemeth's deliberate choice to use that specific area as a meeting spot. also, if one of the other evanuris had betrayed dirthamen, well solas said they fought among each other all the time, so that would seem pretty insignificant. on the other hand... mythal was betrayed by what we assume was all of the other seven evanuris. why portray dirthamen specifically?

the betrayal of mythal

so now we have the idea of dirthamen helping solas and mythal, and we have the fact that solas trapped all seven remaining evanuris for their murder of mythal, which includes dirthamen.

that is the missing piece: dirthamen helped murder mythal, despite helping her and solas, and presumably sharing their goals. why? let me go back to something i said about the sinner codex...

this reads as an attempt to sow discord, either between dirthamen's worshippers or to paint them as troublesome and dirthamen himself as irresponsible in the eyes of the other evanuris

consider that ghilan'nain and dirthamen were close, and she was this young elf who had just gotten into the ranks of the gods, probably trying her hardest to fit in. consider that perhaps she stumbled upon her friend's - and now fellow god's - involvement in a rebellion against the gods. but she was the youngest of them. she could not just go to the other evanuris and say, "dirthamen is plotting against us", because she was so new to their group that they would just simply not believe her word over mythal and dirthamen's. so what else could she do to discredit his word? cause discord among his followers, maybe? to paint him as irresponsible, untrustworthy, and suspicious?

and maybe she succeeded. maybe the evanuris found out about the rebellion, and mythal and dirthamen's roles, or perhaps only mythal's? either way, it all ended up with them asking dirthamen to join them in their plot to murder mythal - if his involvement was revealed, perhaps he was threatened or promised to be spared if he helped. either way, the question is: why did he agree? did he change his mind and side with the evanuris? or did he do it for preservation reasons? to save himself, and all he'd acquired? honestly, i cannot imagine a god who gathers secrets and knowledge agreeing to throw away his life like that.

so there you have it. i think dirthamen betrayed mythal, and solas, with a much deeper cut than any of the other evanuris could have possibly delivered. and for that he was trapped alongside them, paying the price for his treachery.

the full narrative, summarised

to break down all my theorycrafting and brainstorming in a short summary:

dirthamen was ghilan'nain's patron, until she ascended to godhood and discovered his involvement in solas and mythal's rebellion. unable to simply tell the other gods, ghilan'nain began to sow discord in attempt to discredit dirthamen's word. when the evanuris eventually turned against mythal, dirthamen went along with them in order to preserve himself, and ultimately paid the price by being trapped in the fade alongside the others. the end!

—————

final note: companion parallels

i first touched on this briefly here but i have a small theory that part of bellara and davrin's characters will be to sort of act as parallels to the gods whose vallaslin they have. what i found curious about veilguard's early marketing was the focus on companions and how important they will be, and i specifically noted the multiple times the writers said that the companions were all deeply thought through and are significant to the plot. it's clear the companions were thoughtfully crafted in order to provide different perspectives and experiences, which is why i found it incredibly interesting that they decided on two dalish elf companions — in a game about elven gods terrorising the world, you'd think that one dalish elf and one city elf could provide more differing perspectives, but bioware specifically picked two dalish elves instead. it implies that, despite their similar upbringings, bellara and davrin may have completely differing opinions about the current threat, or about solas, or something else we don't know about yet. it was clearly a very deliberate decision, and with how important the vallaslin is to dalish elves, it has to mean something.

bellara is an elven lore nerd who loves exploring ancient ruins and uncovering secrets. dirthamen was an easy guess, and the design - although new and very unique - matched up to patterns on his inquisition vallaslin. as of sept 19, it has been confirmed her vallaslin is indeed dirthamen's.

davrin is a grey warden and a monster hunter. his vallaslin design was harder to figure out, at first i thought it was june's but the lines and layout really remind me more of ghilan'nain's.

the parallels are pretty clear. bellara is more similar to dirthamen, being interested in secrets and knowledge and such. whereas davrin and ghilan'nain are at odds: davrin being a grey warden monster hunter, ghil being a blighted monster maker. one similarity, and one anithesis, which makes them unique to each other. and for all the gods bioware could have picked, to choose dirthamen and ghilan'nain... well, ghil is of course one of our antagonists, but dirthamen has no direct connection to the plot...

........ or maybe he does? we'll have to find out :)

[imakemywings]

Varric: Me, take down the Dread Wolf? I'm flattered. Varric: No, I just came to ask you a question. So, you rebelled against the other gods, and it was a disaster. Varric: Then you imprisoned them and created the Veil, and that was a disaster. Varric: So how is this time gonna work out any better? Can you tell me that? Solas: I understand your hesitance, but what I do now must be done, despite it being past your comprehension. Varric: I'm not saying you're evil. But if you really believed in what you were doing, you'd be able to give me a straight answer. Solas: You would rather cast aspersions than admit that this is mine to solve. Varric: No mistake is worth killing innocent people over. Solas: The question is what lives, and how. My ritual will heal the world, and restore what was driven out of balance. Varric: C'mon, Chuckles. Who are you trying to convince here? Me, or yourself? Solas: Varric… Varric: You're not the first good man I've seen talk himself into a bad decision. The question is whether you can admit it.

This dialogue makes me so crazy and I mean that in a deeply pejorative way. This exchange between Solas and Varric at the start of Veilguard (which you can't actually really hear in-game) goes right to the heart of my biggest problems with the game, which is that it refuses to honestly engage with Solas and his motivations.

Varric, the terminal centrist, seems to suggest that Solas was in the wrong to rebel against the Evanuris for being tyrannical slavers. Which, given Varric's general attitude towards injustice in Kirkwall, isn't totally out of character. Except that Veilguard posits him as the moral heart of the game, so...not sure where we go with that. Is Varric suggesting they'd be better off if the Evanuris had been allowed to continue ruling until the present day?

Then, Solas refuses to give an actual reasons for why he's doing what he's doing. At least in Trespasser, he hinted at why he needed to bring down the Veil. Here, where the writers are given a chance to actually, clearly lay out Solas' motivations, they just...don't. Veilguard won't honestly interrogate either side of the debate, which results in incredibly circular dialogue throughout the game to the effect of:

Solas: I must do this. It's my mistake to fix.

Varric: You're going to drown the world in demons!

Repeat ad nauseum.

No reasons from Solas on why he needs to bring down the Veil--nothing like his Trespasser comments or even his Inquisition dialogue hinting at what the world was before the Veil. Nothing about how spirits suffer being confined exclusively to the Fade. Nothing about how the elves have suffered and been degraded since the Veil went up. Nothing at all about the uthenerai, who may have just been entirely reconned. Just "I made a mistake. I have to fix it." And then later we mix in his grief for Mythal and that's meant to explain it all.

Varric can't argue with Solas because Solas gives Varric nothing to argue against, and therefore nothing for the player to agree or disagree with. We can't have an opinion on what Solas is doing because we're never given concrete reasons why he wants to do this, except that apparently Mythal wanted this (which she never gives any indication of in any of the material we have about her)? (Demonstrably Flemythal disagrees, so this sentiment is at best out of date and at worst completely baseless.) And I've already talked about how making Solas' desire to remove the Veil stem from his personal grief for an individual rather than his desire to do justice for his people weakens his character.

Varric says that if Solas believed in what he was doing he'd give a straight answer, but that would require the game to give us a straight answer, so that can't happen. Veilguard suffers from being a game with a significant moral quandary at the center which determinedly refuses to ever interrogate that quandary.

[tsukishima-tadashi]

I've been thinking about Sylaise and her dragon thrall lately.

(Warning: this theory post is not absent of a few jabs at the quality of writing in Veilguard. I'm sorry I tried to keep it in but I just physically could not.)

Pre-Veilguard I had thought her Old God equivalent would be Andoral; Andoral being Andruil's seemed too obvious... I suppose that was just me being unnecessarily obtuse, because Veilguard implied Andoral was, indeed, Andruil's dragon thrall. Though, it was just implied by a single codex from Bellara that was just speculation. I suppose she could be wrong, but... well. I don't see any effort in the game to make me wonder about that. (So I get neither the satisfaction of definite answers nor the fun of having new but incomplete information for me to mull and theorize over... woo...)

(For the record, pre-dissapoint—I mean, pre-Veilguard me thought Sylaise would have been connected to the Dragon of Slavery because of:

1. While Craft is June's domain, Sylaise is also accredited by the Dalish with having taught the Elves how to weave rope and thread; June is in fact said to have created the bow after learning from her—over time, I saw June as an inventor and Sylaise as supplier. In other words, I assumed she was the industrialist of the Evanuris, and thus got the most utility out of slaves.

2. She is associated with the keeping of the home, and, well, why would a "goddess" do the household work? That's what slaves are for.

3. I could have sworn something in Trespasser said she had the most slaves out of all the Evanuris but I can't find it.)

Ahem.

Bellara's speculation instead connected Sylaise to Toth (who I had instead believed to be connected to June because... forges... fire... look, plenty of you agreed with me on that one I don't need to get into it).

I'm trying to figure out what that says about Sylaise, then.

The only other new bits of information we get about her in Veilguard is that she was the architect of Arlathan and was once closely associated with someone known only as "the Healer", but any trace of said Healer's name has been eradicated, apparently by the order of Elgar'nan. It seems strange that she wasn't the Healer of the group, given how the Dalish associates her with healing, but hey, the Dalish were wrong about a lot.

The latter bit doesn't seem to have any immediate relevance to her role besides saying what she wasn't, but her being the architect of Arlathan doesn't explain her connection with fire, either. Sure, the Dalish remembering her as the goddess of home tracks with her being the architect of the empire's capital, but where does fire come in?

For that matter, what was Toth's deal with fire? I mean, besides being a dragon. Toth was the Old God of Fire, but what did that mean in Tevinter? What was the cultural impact Toth had on Tevinter, what values did Toth teach?

Really, we get next to nothing about the worship of the Old Gods in Ancient Tevinter. Which is a crime when we literally visit Tevinter. And Tevinter ruins in all four games! I can't even lay the blame entirely on Veilguard for this one! They really should've dropped more lore on them in EVERY installation in the series.

But I digress.

There is one thing about Ancient Tevinter and fire that might tell us something about Toth and, as follows, Sylaise:

Andraste.

Rather, the method of her execution. Set aflame to burn at the stake like a witch.

Pair this with the constellation named for Toth, depicting a person on fire, and the only thing we can possibly gleam about Toth's purpose in Tevinter culture is... execution. Punishment.

Now, obviously, punishment was kind of Elgar'nan's thing. Mythal too. It might seem a bit of a stretch to say it was Sylaise's, too. But... I'd still like to suggest that Sylaise was Arlathan's... let's say... witchhunter general.

Obviously, they aren't burning people for using magic, but... we do know they had an issue with folks like the Forbidden Ones draft dodging, or trying to shapeshift into dragons. Though, I also have another idea relating to that mysterious Healer...

A lot of people seem to think the Healer refers to Solas, but we're never given any reason to believe he was close to Sylaise. I might lose some of you here, but... I think Sylaise had a Falon'din/Dirthamen deal going on with the Healer.

Allow me to paint you a picture:

The original Sylaise designs and builds Arlathan before the Titans bring it down with their quakes.

The original Sylaise dies in the resulting catastrophe. The Sylaise we know and the Healer are created as fragments of her.

At first, they both work together like Dirthamen and Falon'din do. They join the war on the Titans. They want to protect what they built, what the original Sylaise poured her heart into.

But the Healer... the Healer begins to sympathize with the Titans. Realizes they didn't act out of malice, but pain.

This... is a betrayal.

Sylaise burns her for it.

She burns all traitors. Hunts them. Through fire, the elvhen is cleansed of rot. Andruil hunts the threats without, Sylaise the threats within. Sedition and heresy. She keeps Arlathan "safe" by burning anyone with dangerous questions at the stake. Perhaps it's even a sick form of healing; cauterizing the wound. Burning the disease away.

Fire and healing and home.

(I still think there's a case to be made for Sylaise as the industrialist; the fires of industry and such.)

[miriani-lavellan]

Is it just me, or do spirits struggle with futures? Not immediate consequences, but more complex predictions about what might happen after an action?

It's just - Justice was pushing for some kind of retaliation, some vengeance, without truly seeming to understand that there might be complicated reactions after the fact. After the deed is done, he sort of calms down (his purpose is fulfilled) and Anders is left to fall into despondancy and can be killed without Justice intervening (Anders has also served his purpose).

We all know Spite doesn't really understand the mortal world, he wants to kill Illario despite Lucanis knowing the fallout from that would be worse for him on an emotional level. He only accepts it, I imagine, when Lucanis explains (or else Spite comes to understand) how this fulfills Spite's goal just the same (revenge can be enacted without death).

The original spirits who took bodies did so because it fulfilled a purpose, either expanding their ability for control (Tyranny, or Elgar'nan), perhaps Curiosity, and the necessity to care for the spirits that were embarking on this new, scary, unknown state of being (Benevolence, or Mythal). They don't seem to have understood the potential consequences of this, and even when Wisdom (Solas) correctly identifies that this path might bring trouble, he can't seem imagine what this might be doing to the Titans to draw any intelligent conclusions. Is it only obvious in hindsight? Perhaps, but it does seem obvious that hurting other beings might lead to retaliation and misery, even if the scale of the pain that created the Blight was impossible to imagine.

I don't have any real point tbh, but spirits (beings of a timeless state of existence) not being able to intelligently or fully consider the consequences of their actions does sort of explain why things happened the way they did. Mortals are future-thinking in a way spirits just... aren't, it seems.

Been thinking that the spirits taking bodies were a natural evolution of consciouses. It's just a shame that it was Tyranny and the rest of them that did so, and not a spirit like Compassion, who (like Cole) might have found a way to manifest a body and become a more complex being (perhaps with the help of the dwarves).

I also wonder if that's how the Titans created the first dwarves - perhaps they used their own blood to form children of the earth - from spirits or wisps - with physical bodies to raise and tend to them.

Anyway, it does sort of fit with the Chantry idea that the Maker thought his 'first children' the spirits the first draft, and that more complex beings of consciousness are the true inheritors of the earth. The cruelty of the first spirits is not excused, especially when they developed enough to understand multiple emotions and complex ideas outside their original purpose, but it does seem inevitable that spirits would either become or take bodies at some point.

I just wonder where the first spirits came from. Whose Tyranny was being reflected to create that spirit? Whose Benevolence? I wonder where the Titans came from.

[sha-brytols]

never apologize these give me life. it's also frustrating when you try to point this out because ALWAYS either one of two things happens:

"um ☝️🤓 actually 🙄 this is a really unfair assessment and actually says more about YOUR perception of gender politics that you believe mythal is meant to be the Evil Crazy Bitch Ex Wife" and for some reason no amount of explaining that you are specifically criticizing this as an idea being set up by the devs in the actual game itself will ever actually get through to people

"oh 🤨 so women aren't allowed to be nuanced anymore? 🤔 we can't have flawed female characters? 🙄 it's sexist for female characters to be portrayed in a toxic relationship?" and this one really grinds my gears because it ISN'T nuanced and it ISN'T complex and the entire thing was framed by the devs in such a way that illustrates everything as ultimately mythal's individual fault.

like i like the idea of mythal and solas having a codependent and mutually destructive relationship in theory and i LOVE the idea that this ultimately manifests in the literal annhilation of their world as they know it because THEY'RE GODSkindof! but this isn't how it plays out. there is absolutely NO point in the entire game where solas is given literally any agency over his own actions. why did he destroy the titans? mythal told him to. he actually says in this 🥺 heartbreaking tone "what we're doing is awful" just to really drive home the point of he didn't want this. why did he use the titans life force as a tool to strengthen the evanuris? mythal told him to. see, she even forced him to abandon his spiritual form despite him not wanting to and he even told her he thinks its dangerous to harvest the blood of the titans, he's just that loyal and devoted to her! why is he tearing down the veil? he's fulfilling mythal's final wish and he literally cannot stop himself because he's so broken by his loyalty and devotion to her that he's unable to consider any other path. why did he STAB VARRIC AND USE HIS LIKENESS TO MIND CONTROL AND MANIPULATE ROOK? BECAUSE OF MYTHAL‼️

this is what drives me so crazy like i see fans (especially solasmancers) actually buying into this and it makes me want to rip my hair out. even that infamously despised ending where he relies on mythal's favor rather than the inquisitor's to finally break the cycle seems so insidious to me. like the writers were specifically grabbing you by the shoulder to be like "don't worry, girl! he WOULD have stopped for you! he wanted to stop for you! he just couldn't because of his evil ex wife! blame her! ^_^" like all of this was just specifically so that fans of solas didn't have to reconcile any of the bad things that he does as his own actions and i'm not even saying this as a dig against solavellans im saying YALL WERE ROBBED AND YOU'RE STILL FEEDING INTO THIS EVEN WHEN YOU'RE COMPLAINING ABOUT HOW MUCH IT SUCKED.

i like solas! i hate that i even feel like i have to say this because my opinion on him shouldn't matter in a discussion about misogyny but because there's now this narrative that any interpretation of him as anything but a poor little meow meow who got fucked over by the devs with a hidden agenda i feel like i have to clarify that i'm saying this partly because this completely destroys everything that made him so fun and appealing. like imagine if da2 genuinely leaned into the notion that anders was completely innocent and just being manipulated by justice this whole time and nothing he did was ever his own decision like does that not SUCK ALL POSSIBLE INTEREST OUT OF THAT CHARACTER FOR YOU? why are we okay with this!!!!!! fuck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@ikarons literally all your tags ruled but these ones especially because you dont even know how much this BUGGED ME‼️

[tempestuouscreature]

DRAGON AGE LINKAGE.

Flemeth knows.

The fragment of Mythal within her spans all time. Even the future.

When you bring her amulet to Sundermount in DA:2 she gives you a bit of prophecy.

If you have Bethany (and maybe Carver too, but that is unknown to me) in your party she expresses regret and sympathy for your Champions loss. You might have thought this was about the death of the other twin. However along the story your Hawke has to deal with the loss of the surviving twin, as well as your mother, and perhaps the person you romance depending on situation.

But this is not the only thing she prophesied at Sundermount. She prophesied both 'Here Lies the Abyss', as well as the Breach.

All in very quick succession.

She speaks that the world fears change, but will inevitably fall into the abyss. To watch for that moment, and when it comes do not hesitate to leap. 'It is only when you fall, that you learn you can fly'. She could also speak of Hawkes fall from being Champion after the events of DA:2, and being on the run. But I think she's lumping several events into a single Prophecy.

You literally fall, into the fade. When you fall off the collapsing bridge.

I think Flemeth means you're supposed to leave Hawke in the Fade. Why? I can't really other think of a reason except that the answer was supposed to occur in DA:4, or is in Mike Laidlaws notes for future content. (that is if we ever get it, after so many members of Bioware have left ina very short timeframe, most of which worked on the Dragon Age games. I'm really convinced that EA is trying to force them to take the games in a route is was never meant to be taken. Much like they forced the Montreal team to make a rush job of ME:Andromeda. Meaning it will be a VERY long time until we see either another DA or ME title, if ever.)

She also alludes to Merrils Eluvian. She tells Merril to be careful, that 'no path is darker, than with your eyes shut'. Is Flemeth telling her complete the Eluvian or not here?

I personally think she wants Merril to fix the Eluvian. I'm still of the opinion that it's her that wakes up Solas from his Uthenera. Meaning Merril fixing the Eluvian would be canonical. Was Flemeth warning her about the darkspawn on the other side, or something else?

In the Dalish Warden origin you are a member of Merrils clan, and discover this Eluvian, at the loss of Tamlen. Who comes to you later in the beginning stages of becoming a darkspawn.

He says he sees something in the dark of the mirror. Is it darkspawn? Forgotten ones? Forbidden ones? Are the forgotten or forbidden the originators of the creation of broodmothers, thus creating the darkspawn?

In 'Paragon of her kind' you come across a dwarvette named Hespith. She is a member of house Branka that went with Paragon Branka on an expedition to find The Anvil of the Void. She was the captain of the expedition, as well as became Brankas lover, as Branka is married to Oghren, a member of your party, as well as Hespiths cousin. She says she is the member of the expedition that is 'alive', but I wouldn't call being a ghoul such that she is now alive. She is the only member of the family you see, but she speaks of another, Laryn. She also says she is heartbroken from being betrayed by her lover, Branka. And that she was forced to watch the last of the expedition be made into darkspawn, the women became Broodmothers, and the men presumably becoming Genlocks. (This begs the explanation for Genlock Emissaries, considering that dwarves are unable to use magic of any kind, but I digress.) Or being eaten.

You encounter the broodmother that is most likely Laryn, right after dialog from Hespith explaining how all the women were violated and forced to consume darkspawn bile and blight, and as they turned came back to consume more members of the expedition. Hespith says she watched as Laryn tore her own husband's face off and drank his blood (Before or after becoming a Genlock I wonder?), grew and turned gray, becoming a broodmother.

Now all of this meaning that there has to be Eluvians is the deep roads. Now this we know (spoiler) since in DA:I- Tresspasser we end up in a long forgotten part of the deep roads. In which there is elvhen influence. Seen in the absolutely gigantic statue we see of Mythal in the distance, as well as the very old statues of Mythal and Fen'Harel.

How many Eluvians are in the deep roads? Is Merrils Eluvian connected to one of these? I think so. I also think it is most likely linked to the place Solas slept through the ages in Uthenera. But perhaps Flemeth was warning her that when she goes through the Eluvian be prepared. For it is dark and many things lurk, and you will get turned around and lost if not careful. This explains why Solas only wakes a year before Inquisition, in the year 9:40 Dragon. Andres blows up the Chantry in Kirkwall in 9:37 Dragon. This allows time for Merril to be lost in the deep roads for three years before waking Solas, Fen'Harel.

I like this theory. While getting to know Solas you find that he only ever lies once. He says he missed court intrigue, if you ask him he stammers and says he has seen it in the fade. This is the only time he lies. At the end of Tresspaser he tells you he woke but a year before the Breach. This is truth. Meaning the theory that Solas was just a spirit wandering looking for a host, much like Mythal and Flemeth, until he came across the dying Zatharian. Keeper of the the elves you find in the Bracelian Forest. In this quest you must side with the werewolves or the clan. If side with the wolves he dies, if you side with the clan he lives but at the end of the game it is made clear that he disappeared. Many players have assumed that he was found by the spirit of Fen'Harel, his vallaslin removed, and became a vessel for the spirit. The argument is that both characters look alike and are bald, as well as the staff the Solas is seen with, no matter what staff you had equipped with him, is the same model as Zathrians from Origins. However the time lines just don't match up well enough for me.

Either could be true, but I think Merrils path makes mores sense, especially when you take what Flemeth says seriously into account.

But I personally think that every single tiny detail is connected.

I think that Sandal is an older version of what we see in Valta (your Shaper guide in the Descent who becomes MORE after the Titan zaps her) connected to another Titan. Specifically a Titan in Orlais, like... under Kal-Sharok? This would explain why he only says the word Enchantment. He nor his Titan cant possibly know Common, but he could pick up some from his time on the surface. As well as why he is so extremely good at enchanting, why Feddick found him in the deep roads, and why you find his equipment and journal in the Ruined Library in Tresspasser. His Titan wanted to explore, and sees through his lyrium blue eyes. This would also explain why Sandal also graces you with a prophecy of his own in DA:2, if you are lucky enough to catch it.

'One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part, and the skies will open wide. When he rises, everyone will see.'

This is about one of three things, or all of them at the same time.

Solas, achieving what he says out to do in Tresspaser, and successfully tearing down the Veil.

Corypheus, taking over the world. The breach expanding and the fade merging with reality, like you see in 'In Hushed Whispers' if you side with the mages.

Or your Inquisitor, rising to power, failing to stop Solas from tearing down the Veil, and saying 'I fucking told you so' and everyone seeing as it was a bad idea that they demand the Inquisition disband or downsize when it's needed most.

Sandal also talks about the old lady with a scary laugh telling him things in his head. Flemeth perhaps? Or maybe the prophecy is Flemeth or his Titan speaking through him.

He is also badass. You find him near the end of both Origions and 2 in a room full of dead enemies, ready to sell you wares or enchant stuff for you.

Everything is connected.

Long but relevant post I think.

Dareth Shiral.

[tsukishima-tadashi]

DRAGON AGE RAMBLING

Disclaimer: When I say this is rambling I fucking mean RAMBLING.

I'm just thinking about the war between the elves and the dwarves/titans and how Mythal talks to Solas and... eh...

The way Mythal talks does *not* sound like a spirit of Benevolence. She doesn't sound like someone a spirit of Wisdom could pledge it's loyalty to. From the very first Regret fresco, she already sounds manipulative and cunning and cold. This isn't a criticism of her; it's a criticism of how she was written. It doesn't sound like two friends. It sounds like she's already planning something and that just... doesn't make sense to me.

Then, the war against the titans... ehh, how do I explain my feelings here... I feel like even though it's basically flat out stated that the elves didn't know they were hurting the titans, they're still portrayed as evil and power hungry over the war. I wish there was an angle about how brutal the titans' retaliation seemed. I want it to have been so destructive that it made *sense* that the elves assumed malice and not self-defense. Show me how the first cities of the elves were left decimated, give me a kill count, tell me the story of Falon'din as the first elf to experience death. Give me a reason Elgar'nan was the god of Vengeance, a reason the people wanted vengeance!

Tell me how badly outmatched the elves war against the titans. Show me how desperate the situation was. Say diplomacy didn't work because they had no idea how to communicate! Work up to the nuclear option of tranquilization! Paint a picture of a war so devastating that we can UNDERSTAND why Elgar'nan and Mythal came to the conclusion that the elves needed to be protected by their power, even when we know they were wrong. Let some people find their reasons agreeable and side with them because what the hell happened to players being able to side with the antagonists?

And show me how the titans and dwarves presumed malice too! Let me see through their eyes that the elves were vicious parasites beyond reason! That they were scary, that the titans didn't know what was happening, that they were not just acting in self defense but were afraid for their children, the dwarves, and acting as a parent would! Ferociously and with deadly force! Let them choose to assume malice instead of trying to understand that the elves genuinely didn't know they were hurting them! Let them erroneously see greed and envy when there was actually wonder and admiration! Make it about how perception affects spirits; Solas reflects either Wisdom or Pride depending on who he's speaking to, why wouldn't the ancient elves reflect the assumptions of the titans?

Make both sides complicated! Fuck!

And make Mythal sound genuinely desperate about the nuclear option! Make it sound like she cares! Make it seem like she genuinely thinks the survival of her people depends on this atrocity!

And why, why weren't we afforded more insight into the Evanuris? Why must I endure yet another set of villains with no human motivation? Give Elgar'nan depth, I'm begging you!! Traumatized by being one of the few survivors of the first set of elves after the titans shook the city he helped build, maybe? What was he before Tyranny? How did he feel about his people? Was he *really* always like this, or did the Blight change him?

And Ghilin'nain... eugh, at least with Elgar'nan I can see the *potential* for motivation. With her... I dunno. Maybe I'm not seeing something. When it comes to 2D villains, she's so much cooler than Elgar'nan! But I still don't understand what her motives before succumbing to corruption were. I can't begin to see how she might've been if she were 3D. Maybe I'm short sighted, I guess. Please, I'd love to hear ideas.

[laimdalen-itellam]

"Well, they have been briefing me on what I'll be expected to know and do," Lavellan clarified. "It's just the reasoning behind it all that they tend not to bother with. Apparently, there's some sort of 'game' involving politics and societal behavior there? Josephine did try to explain some of it to me once, but there's all these complicated rules that make no sense, and it just went over my head. Cullen doesn't seem to understand the game either, but apparently Leliana and Josephine are very well-versed in it. I imagine it takes a long time to learn, which we don't have, but they have told me to come to either of them if I need advice on a situation during the ball."

The Inquisitor's eyes widened in horrified realization when Ameridan brought up dancing. Did he know any basics? If he did, the memories were lost with all the others from before that day at the Conclave...

"Mythal's grace," exclaimed Lavellan. "We've been so caught up in the politics of it all, I think we must've forgotten about that. I'm... I'm not sure if I do have any experience in that area, but even if I did at some point, it's probably not up to Orlesian standards. ...Why couldn't they just have normal peace talks?"

With this new thought occupying his mind, Lavellan's anxiety had really started to kick in, but he tried to follow along with Ameridan's explanation as best as he could. "I can't imagine why throwing a ball among the nobility during political negotiations would ease the public's mind, but that doesn't make any less sense than anything else I've heard about Orlais."

Lavellan shook his head at the very idea of himself becoming self-serving. "I would never-" he started, before a new thought crept over him. "...I'm not even certain I have any needs or desires outside of helping people. Anything I once wanted, any outside connections I might have had... They're all lost to me. Perhaps that's part of the reason I was given this position..."

laimdalen-itellam​:

“Yes, very empty,” Lavellan agreed. “Other parts of the Dales still seem alright; I believe Dirthavaren has probably just suffered the most. The land was littered with ruins and the burnt remains of trees. Empress Celene and her cousin – I can’t recall his name, but I know it was complicated and strange-sounding – they’ve been using the area as a battfield again.”

“Her cousin is actually the one she’s setting up the peace talks with,” he remembered. “I’m still not sure how the ball ties into everything, but Leliana and Josephine told me not to think too hard about it.” He often found that those words were code for some aspect of fancy noble culture being too complicated for them to bother trying to explain it to him.

Lavellan shook his head at Ameridan’s last question. “Not really. I wouldn’t want to leave anyone to die anyway, but my advisors said her death would bring about more wars across the whole of Thedas.” The thought made him grimace… “They also told me the Empress has at least tried to be diplomatic towards mages and elves,” he added. “Her cousin apparently doesn’t share the same ideals, so it seems to be in our people’s best interests to protect her position on the throne for now.”

Not to think about it? Why? He couldn’t explain why that made him angry.

“If you’re representing the Inquisition and attending these peace talks, then they should be inundating you with information on what to expect, why everything is the way it is, and helping formulate a plan. They shouldn’t keep you in the dark. You’re not just a figurehead, you’re the person who’s putting in the work to make all of this fit together.”

Maker help them all if this was the standard around here. What else were they brushing off with a ‘don’t worry about it’? It wasn’t safe. Knowledge is dangerous, yes, but so is ignorance. If they wanted him leading them, then they needed to keep him informed, not this.

“This is a ball. Someone is bound to ask you to dance. Please tell me they’ve taught you some of the basics if you didn’t know them already…” Honestly, it wasn’t important in the slightest compared to everything else surrounding this, but at least one thing could be done right.

And Ameridan would have to think back on what reasoning his friend would have had to do the same thing for “peace talks.”

“It’s the illusion of peace, the idea that, “See? Everything is fine and we, the ones on top, are still on top. We’ve nothing to fear as our way of life continues to go unchallenged. The public will love us because they will think we actually care about them enough to set aside our differences for their sakes when they’re actually disposable.”” He exhaled slowly and forced himself to relax. Losing his temper was the worst thing he could do at the moment.

If Drakon had done what these nobles were doing, Ameridan would have strangled him…

“If you learn nothing else from me, Inquisitor, please never forget who you’re doing all of this for. Don’t become callous and self-serving the way the nobility have. I am not saying that you should ignore your needs and desires, but don’t let them be what drives you to get more of whatever you can get your hands on.”

[sassyseeker]

I agree with what Dirthenera said. I also believe you misunderstood when you say he dumped her to clean his conscience of what he will try and do. He engaged in the romance even though he knew he would leave, but did he really? I would probably not be able to resist in his shoes and Lavellan doesn't make it easy for him either. Even though he tries repeatedly to avoid it then finally gives in to the romance, the conflict is so strong, right after he confesses his love, he leaves the room like he was just defeated. And PW explained in the scene at Crestwood, his original intention was not to talk about the vallaslin or break up, but to confess his identity and purpose to her. But he changes his mind midway and uses the vallaslin as a diversion. If he had followed the original intention however, and if Lavellan had accepted him, he wouldn't have to leave. So knowing he had to leave was not a certainty at all times. And the reason he decides to split is not to clear his conscience, I think (he is always blaming himself btw, passing the blame is not something he is known to do). PW explains the reason he breaks with her is because he can't remain with her and not tell who he is and still follow his duty. His self-appointed mission comes first. He tells her he will not distract her anymore but the fact is that she was the great distraction to him and his mission. Since he chickened out at the last moment and wasn't able to tell her the truth, breaking up was the only remaining option in order to keep his duty. The voice actor makes an excellent job in Trespasser when he says "And now you know. What is the old Dalish curse? May the Dread Wolf take you?" You can perceive how much he was afraid back then that he would reveal himself as Fen'Harel and be rejected based on her Dalish misconceptions. Only after Lavellan saw firsthand the murals, the places, the history of Fen'Harel as the slave-freeing hero does he let her find him, and it still feels as if a burden is taken off his shoulders when he finally reveals himself.

The devs make up things as they go as well, Solas only became romanceable in the last year before the game was ready. Notice how he deflects to answer in Trespasser about his plans to deal with the evanuris when the veil is destroyed. He couldn't answer because anything he said would be a "shackle" that would restrain the writers from changing their minds in the future. Solas speaks as if the return of Elvhenan would be the death of everyone alive in the modern world, including shemlen elves. However in Tevinter Nights it seems there are great odds of survival for the modern elves. Maybe the writers are still deciding upon that, but imagine this: Solas is immortal, he should have come to terms with Lavellan's death since the first day, she is mortal, after all. Ever since Tevinter Nights, the odds of Lavellan's survival may drastically improve with the Veil's removal. So if he wants her to survive, the veil has to fall asap, she's getting older by the day, literally. About Solas being selfish in the chance of her death, remember he set himself up for death too by walking the dinanshiral, which implies his own death at the end of his plans. There is one point which always bothered me however, like it bothers you now. As things were at Trespasser, with Lavellan's death seeming inevitable, why couldn't he simply stop for a while and be happy with her while she is alive? Her lifespan is but a moment compared to immortality. But if tearing down the veil gives her a chance at immortality, it makes much more sense. Nevertheless, there is still the matter of the red lyrium, the blight, archdemons and Solas' reproval of the Grey Wardens order. We don't know how urgent the situation is regarding these things. We also do not know what Solas absorbed from Mythal, if it interferes with his own personality (imagine Solas being half driven by Mythal's need for revenge). They seem to be working together and she is bent on a reckoning that will shake the very heavens, probably lacking patience by this point. It all could explain Solas' haste. As for Solas' motivation, I see not selfishness but perhaps a need for atonement. He really seems to want to right his wrongs, at the cost of himself and the lives of many he considers tranquil, who will soon be dead in the natural course of their shemlen lives (still genocide, of course). Particularly, I have always headcanoned that Solas has a plan to hide Lavellan in uthenera or something that can make her immune to the effects of this transitional phase when the Veil is torn. All that is how I can see there is still a possibility of redemption for Solas and for Solavellan.

How does your inquisitor forgive Solas for essentially telling you he’s made peace with your potential death?

I don’t think I’ve ever made a post engaging in fandom discussion, or thrown my two cents in, so I don’t know how people Do This. But I’ll do my best navigate it because this is something I want to discuss and hear people who romance Solas respond to.

So, I first played DA:I two years ago. I’ve romanced Solas in every single play-through other than my very first. Over the course of those two years, my feelings on this character, naturally, have changed drastically.

Disclaimer: I adore Solas. He is my favorite character despite many feelings changing, and my wanting to punch him in the face 88% of the time. Anyways.

In the beginning, I headcanoned my Inquisitor (Meva) as essentially staying with Solas regardless of his actions. Both the ones that have come to pass, and ones to come (DA 4). Though aware of Solas’s faults - not trying to have a whole thread shooting shit over those, I’m well aware of them - I always felt certain my inquisitor can and would forgive him. That his love for the Dread Wolf in question enabled him to see past everything that has happened, and will happen.

I didn’t really see anything wrong with that. I guess, as part of this discussion I want to have, there isn’t anything wrong with that. Forgiveness is subjective. Everyone forgives differently and has varying limits to what they can and will look past. In some ways, it’s nearly impossible to agree who deserves forgiveness and who doesn’t.

However.

A few months ago, I was replaying DA:I, as I do. And I got to Tresspasser, and the conversation you have with Solas as a romanced inquisitor at the end of it. And for whatever reason, the words “I will never forget you” really hit me in a way they hadn’t before. It was like it was the first time I really grasped what he was saying to the person he’d been in a relationship with.

And suddenly, there was no way for Meva to forgive him. There was no possible way my inquisitor, regardless of wanting to stop or redeem him, could remain in love with this person. Solas stands before your inquisitor, a person who once he was presumably in love with, and tells you in more or less words he’s accepted the fact you may die as a result of his plans. And he hopes you’ll live peacefully for a few before that happens.

I see so often so many lavellans headcanoned to be so heartbroken and destroyed over this person; people seem so willing to have their inquisitors remain in love with him despite him saying this you. Hell, I was a person with that headcanon. Solas, who by that point, you might realize essentially broke up with you only to save himself from a guilty conscience over the death of the inquisitor he knows he will likely cause, just like the large amount of deaths worldwide he will likely cause. Solas quite literally puts himself first, in many ways. He was inconsiderate to get involved with the inquisitor, regardless of him making that choice. He knew would leave eventually, but he still engages in a romance, albeit reluctantly. And then proceeds to dump you so he can clean his hands, and conscience, of your death because of what he’s inevitably going to try and do.

I’m aware it’s nuanced, truly. I do think there is a level of care and love on his end. When you’re attracted to someone - in his case the inquisitor - it’s hard to stay away, even when you know it’s a bad idea to engage. And I don’t think for a moment he’s cold hearted and doesn’t care for you inquisitor at all. He clearly does to a certain degree. I guess my question is just

How do you remain in love with someone who treats you this way? How are you still able to have your inquisitor stay with him despite it all?

I know for myself, once I had that revelation, I couldn’t allow my own inquisitor to stay with him. Maybe that’s because I’m a Nerd and generally have massive investment in my OCs, to the point where I near treat them as real people. I just can’t see my inquisitor ever getting over or past Solas being so accepting of his potential death. At the least, if Solas really loved you, he’d be trying to make sure you’re one of the ones that survives. And I know a potential counter to that might be “Well, he couldn’t, because of your position and who you are. He knows you’re trying to stop him. It might be different if you were just a nobody” but...would it though? Do you think he’d try to save you even if you weren’t the inquisitor? Because truthfully, I personally don’t think it would change the situation even a hair. I think Solas would remain on the deluded path he’s on regardless; because in the end, his primary concern is his goal. And the feelings of everyone, even those he’s come to care for and, in his own words, acknowledge as “real people”, come second.

I don’t know. I just want to hear other fellow Solas Romancer’s thoughts because personally the bar is looking like it’s on the floor for this white man HAHA so let us Discuss