#but people dont want to seperate jews from israel. people dont want to know the specifics or anything regarding

[sereniv]

i am so fucking sick of the antisimetism coming out of this

god i have so much to say i just cant

zionists dont touch

[gayhenrycreel]

i really hate how both zionism and antizionism have become so tied to the idea of a state that people have decided you have to support a state to be "on a side".

i dont support any state.

ive seen zionists on this site who are pro palestine (anti israeli GOVERNMENT while still believing that everyone has a right to live in the area, including jewish self determination. ive seen antizionists say the exact same thing.

ive actually never seen a zionist say anything against palestine myself. im not saying it doesn't happen, im saying these words don't have a set definition. ive only seen that kinda zionism from american christians and the israeli government.

antizionists often agree with zionists in everything except title.

i believe people have a right to live where they want, and i think judaism has the right to Jerusalem. i also believe muslims have an equal right to live there too. the states need to dissolve and the people need freedom. we wouldn't kick every non indigenous person out of america, and muslims have lived in the middle east for a very long time, so have a right to live where they have lived for centuries.

so ive seen posts saying this makes me a zionist, while simultaneously other posts say im an antizionist.

but im neither. im an anarchocommunist.

i always support the people, never the state. i dont support the concept of palestine as a state, nor israel. the people of both nations deserve to be free from the tyranny that comes with a state.

zionism and antizionism is a pointless boundary. when i see people claiming that antizionism is antisemitism, i always find that their personal definition of zionism is jewish self determination. and yeah, that is antisemitic to say jews dont deserve to live in their spiritual land.

when antizionists define zionism they say its israel committing genocide, which is totally different.

some zionists are antisemitic and are trying to start the rapture to kill everyone in israel (christian zionism). some antizionists are equally antisemitic and go after jewish people and interrogate them, assuming they want to kill people, even if the victim is openly antizionist.

these are extremes.

a mutual of mine, openly antizionist, says the EXACT same things i see self proclaimed zionists say.

if you wonder how i know this stuff, ive spent over a year considering converting to judaism and i scroll the tag sometimes.

you cant call yourself anti something if you dont learn what the people you oppose believe. their beliefs will always be diverse.

not all anarchists agree either. individualist anarchists are so seperate from my anarchism that its not even the same ideology anymore. but we still call it anarchism.

i genuinely believe this wide spread phenomenon is because people assume they know what The Enemy believes, but, from no fault of their own, people are wrong sometimes, they don't realise that the opposed group is just as diverse as the in-group

so yeah, im not zionist OR antizionist.

im anti state, and pro people, regardless of who they are.

[sereniv]

so i was looking at some jewish zionist posts on threads (i wasnt sure if they were zionist at first)

and though there was a bunch of bullshit, i did realize something

1. Interact and read what the opposition say because not only do you get vital info on them (understanding your opposition), but you can sometimes learn something valuable. Yes from anyone.

2. Only do this if you are strong enough because anyone can fall into propaganda and bigoted views. Yes, anyone.

There are things ive learned from shitty people that i didnt expect to learn. That are seperate from their bigotry/opposition. And though theres a lot of overlap with their veiws and bigotry, and usually what they do and say should be viewed in the lense of their mindset- sometimes theres things you can find from someone who has had experiences different from you. Everyone is different, you can learn something from literally anyone even the worst person is going to know something you dont know.

That doesnt mean mingle or to be friends with the worst people! dont do that!

What i mean is anger is understandable in these types of situations, but try and switch to your love of the oppressed instead. Because your anger can look just like their anger. I dont know how to explain or what that means, but you navigate these huge issues better when you don't respond in anger. Trust me i respond in anger. But when i dont, i learn more. Theres better engagement, im more likely to change someones mind.

When i respond in anger, and i view everything in that anger, then idk someone explain what i mean lol. i have scenarios and feelings but i cant describe it. but i know ive seen someone explain it before. I dont mean 'love thy enemy' btw.

Just viewing and responding in an absence of anger is just better.

Anyway, in this case, it was people being antisimetic-

now at first, i was seeing people calling out zionism and zionists claiming it antisemitism. And though typically i pay attention when something is said to be antisimetic, when it comes to zionists who are claiming everything is antisimetic when it wasnt obvious (or at all), then i tend to fall into not actually considering and just assuming they are lying. Not just Jewish zionists, any zionist. For Jewish zionists, their Jewish experience was overides by the fact that they are zionist (which there is no way else to put that zionism means taking away from Palestinians. Bottom line it is wanting Palestinian land to be israel and there is no way to get that without how its going down now).

Just like how sometimes my anger for TERFs can overide my view of their experience as a woman. Which is another reason why viewing with anger isnt good. It can cloud your judgment and warp how you view things even if you are well meaning.

-and sometimes it was blatant antisemitism where anyone could spot it

but other times it seemed like legitimate call outs. and some were!

but something this zionist said made me pay attention to how people are being "discreetly" antisemitic which i think non jews/not yet jews might not notice

and that is calling out zionism when zionism isnt the topic or isnt referenced

This might seem obvious and some cases it is

but not always to non/not yet jews

Like someone had the Magen David necklace in a post asking where they could get it or whatever. literally nothing about israel nothing about palestine or zionism. Its literally just a necklace of the Star Of David

and there were people bringing up zionism and Palestine. and in this case simply bringing up zionism WAS antisimetic because its equating zionism with being Jewish

Seeing a Jew and instantly thinking zionism is antisimetic

Majority of zionists are not going to change. And when i say zionist i dont mean Jew. Bc im pretty sure Biden isnt Jewish lol

Just like any bigot, like any terf, you as an individual are not going to change their mind. You debating them does nothing but make you feel like youre doing something. But you arent. It does nothing to argue with full cast bigots.

What matters more right now than owning the zionists, is protecting Jewish people who have to see all this shit. And i shouldnt have to say, but also Palestinians who have to see it too. Two groups of people who already have to see just so much right now, they dont to see all the shitty things youre seeing too- as in what people think of them.

Jewish people shouldn't have to see someone equate the Magen David to a genocidal symbol because people dont care enough to look anything up.

So block zionists, but also look at what they are saying

do this with any opposition

Actually know what your opposition believes, but you might also just learn something that is seperate from their beliefs. Again this doesnt mean mingle bc you might lear something new. It just means use your head and dont block out everything that you dont agree with right away. Like theres nuance lol idk how to explain it well. But im definitely better for it

And above all think of how your words look to Jewish people rn. Ask yourself if your words are going to change the mind of the person you are talking to? Because if not just block them. I say 'if not' bc some people are actually wanting to learn.

Because of course this genocide is affecting Palestinians, but it is also affecting the Jewish population

People ARE being antisimetic. Not by calling out zionism, but by seeing a Jew or anything Jewish and instantly calling it zionism and therefor supportive of genocide.

So yeah fuck zionism, but im glad that i stayed looking or else i might not have realized that i wasnt recognizing "discreet" antisemitism. If i wasnt curious and wanted to see more of what zionists believe, i would not have grown to be a better person. I wouldnt have learned hands on more of what they believe and how i dont agree with it.

It is seriously so crucial to talk about the seperation of zionism and israel to Jewish people

They are not synonymous. Call out people who are being antisimetic when its obvious they are ignorant. Your comment will be seen by others and they will learn even if the person you messaged doesnt. But dont fight. Just educate. A fight is what i was talking about above on what you shouldnt do. Bc it gets you nowhere.

Be pro actively non antisimetic. Look stuff up. Ask questions.

And though Jewish zionists are zionists, they are also Jewish. Some of their claims to antisemitism might be bullshit but not all of it.