#but this is like taking 'who would win: superman or vegeta?' way too seriously and getting honest odds from vegas

[master-gatherer]

Oh good, the werewolf scientists are on the case.

[frostbite883-archive]

DBM Bra hating

These comments won’t be in order. With that said..let’s do it to it.

Tregrenos

So, is it Hyukhyuks turn to eat a Senzu in the middle of the match?

#GetGudBra

Me:...I doubt that would happen seeing as that hulking monster never did carried senzu beans after it’s ‘birth’.

A Poverty-Stricken Antelope

@Tregrenos

Now I understand another reason why I hate Bra: she heals mid-match like a little bi***. She wouldn't last 10 seconds in a Dark Souls duel.

Me: So you say.

Itsarge (gamergater or former GGer) and snowflake exchanging some words with each other.

snowflake:

My view on Bra: She's an awkward character. Literally. She's an entitled princess of a Deity-God-Warrior and Bulma, so she's a overpowered brat with a genius level IQ, and obsessed with strength and being better than everyone, which makes her relationships very one-sided and binary. She literally divides the world up into people stronger than her and not stronger than her, and only acknowledges one person as legitimately stronger than her. No, seriously. It's a problem. Try writing like a tomboy teenage girl would talk, who's obsessed with beating everyone she comes across. At best it would come out as parody. It is hard to find that voice, and harder still to make it resonate with a predominately male audience, and yet harder STILL to do it within the confines of traditional shonen story-telling, from which DBZ is inspired. So Salagir took cues from cocky, pre-redemption Vegeta (not a bad idea). But I believe it only jarred the readers more. The gender-swap seemed obvious and artificial and distracted the reader from the story. The same problem occurs in superhero comics. Iron Man? Everyone accepts that a white dude of indeterminate age can be of genius level intellect, have his own company, and be a superhero/playboy in his copious spare time. Riri Williams? A 15 year old black girl who reverse-engineered Iron Man's tech? Whom he then decided to fund and sponsor? UNBELIEVABLE, according to the backlash. Not a real Iron Man/War Machine, it was obvious that the writers simply "made her up." X-23, Laura Kinney? Not a true Wolverine. "Just created as fan-service." Dr. Jane Foster? Not a real Thor. "Just a writer gimmick." This begs the question, why not? What dissolves the suspension of disbelief with these characters, while the suspension of disbelief is limitless with traditional characters? People claim they want new and interesting stories and challenging plots and characters, the same way they claim they want to lose weight. But they really don't. They want the old chestnuts, the familiar, the predictable. The sugar and the salt. If a story is predictable, you don't have to think about it too much. It won't upset you. People dislike being upset. Shonen style stories are the most predictable on the planet. Good always wins. Evil is punished. Virtue is rewarded, and sins are rebuked and/or reprimanded. Good guys and bad guys are obvious and look the part. So Salagir set himself up with challenge in U16 Bra: an unsympathetic, one-dimensional character who happens to be a girl whose cockiness and obsession with strength is/was rewarded, not punished. Her morality is questionable. It's a deliberate inversion of the typical shonen character. But plot-wise, U16 is integral to the story. So she had to wear Plot Armor from the beginning, as well. Also DBM is moving along, plot-wise, at the pace of Freeza's kitchen timer. And there's also a peanut gallery of readers dissecting everything you do every page? Uh-oh...

ltsarge:

Regarding their statement people could buy iron man cause he is a white male... You know I take issue when people bring this line of thinking up. I think their iron heart girl, being a 15 year old black girl is a total cash grab gimmick appealing to their xtreme social left. In the same way that female Thor was a giant feminist spectacle that literally went around beating up misogynists. I don't think it's unreasonable to call out this type of pandering where it's seen. If marvel really wanted a black female heroine to take up the reigns of them iron man, they could have gone with this character. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misty_Knight It would be way more believable for an previously established in comics older black lady who has personally designed by tony stark tech, to take up the Ironman mantle than some 15 year old prodigy made up whole cloth. Same with female thor. If she - hulk or black widow went around welding his hammer (them latter which has occured), I would totally buy it. Having some super powered feminist be the new thor, and telling thor to check his privelege seems almost a parody of sjw influence in comics, yet it's played horribly straight. Sorry for the digression in this thread

snowflake:

But the entire superhero genre is pandering. Captain America punching Hitler? Meek and Mild-Mannered Clark Kent becoming Superman beating up anyone and anything with complete moral justification? Batman being the God-Damnned Batman? Itsarge - In the same way that female Thor was a giant feminist spectacle that literally went around beating up misogynists. That's a totally legitimate power-fantasy. It's just not aimed at you. At least you can console yourself it's likely to fail commercially. And just wait until the Enchantress gets her hands on her! As for Misty Knight, they were probably wanting to avoid anything smacking of blaxploitation. In fact, since Riri Williams looks like her exactly, she'll probably end up being a clone or something. Anyway, my point is that female superheroes are a challenge. They're a challenge to draw (how sexy is too sexy? how muscular is too muscular?). They're a challenge to write. They're challenging to present in an appealing light, and they're a challenge to plot for. And then there's the audience predisposed to hostility against such characters, and then there's the fact it's on the internet, which simply makes everything worse!

ltsarge:

1st up, female superheroes are not a challenge.  Just focus on making a good character, that happens to be female.  Black Widow, Ripley, Sarah Connor, Lara Croft, Rukia, Riza Hawkeye, Winry Rockbell, Bulma Fucking Briefs... (I can go on but you get my drift.) 2nd.  Anyone complaining about them being too sexy is either a prude or hypocrite, considering the over masculine features of male heroes which gives plenty of fanservice to people who like men.  And before anyone says any Anita Sarkeesian-esque excuse about how male superheros having amazing body appeal to the male power-fantasy, go do a cursory google image search on any male hero, ESPECIALLY if they anime, and take off your parental filters.  You will see endless fan art of male characters from Ichigo to wolverine to Raiden who are all in sexually explicit poses, if not flat out porn of them.  Probably the latter. Hell just look at fucking Twilight series if you want an entire series dedicated to the female gaze upon appealing strong masculine figures. The point is, if you're overly concerned about the sexual imagery of a female character, you're in either fear of the rabid feminist crow, or possibly the overly conservative crowd.  Considering their are female characters throughout comics and anime that are sexually appealing but renownly well written speaks volumes on how little an artist or writer should give a fuck about whether they are too muscular or sexy.   3rd.  Regarding superhero pandering like Captain America punching Hitler (or similar heroes punch insert political villain) in the face.  You may note that is something that is often mocked by comic book fans for how politically charged and nationalistic it was.  If that low bar is what we are setting as defense for female thor, than sure, well than I guess those examples of bad writing justifies absurd levels of feminist pandering.

4th.  Most of the arguments brought forth in the discussions regarding all this since the comment about "people are more willing to allow for a white male Iron man, but not Insert minority character" that have emerged as defense of bra, seem to be desperate attempts of justifications for an overall badly done character.  You don't need testicles or white pigmentation and blue irises to recognize the Bra for the most part has not jived with the fan base.  I've made a hefty list in this thread of why her character has problems, and none of them are because she has a vagina.  In fact, I have criticized many of Salagir's Original Characters for the same reasons, but Bra has either more or all of the flaws of the others such as Gast or King Cold. Let's be real.  If Bra was not a female character, people who defend her would not have certain cards in their arsenal.  If this character was Vegeta, and I was defending her, you wouldn't see me saying "Oh you vegeta haters dislike Vegeta because he's a male.  You are all sexist!"  or "its difficult to right an arrogant MALE character from space" I don't give a fuck that Bra is a strong female character.  I give a fuck that her blatant mary sue traits are not addressed, and in story she's not criticized for being a bratty person. Just because there is a lack of "strong female" characters in DBZ cannon (not complete absence, as there are still many in DB/DBZ), is not a good excuse for building a shitty one.  We don't need affirmative action in comics or fan comics.  If people want to make a strong female character, that's good, that's fine!  But if there is one that's made that has HUGE FLAWS, we shouldn't say "Well, there are no other strong female characters, so thank god for BRA."

snowflake:

Well, on the flip side, if Bra was male, I doubt we'd get as much demands for PUNISHMENT!1!11 or "Punch me harder, Daddy" jokes. At this point, we'll just agree to disagree. We're talking past each other. I have faith that all of your complaints with U16 Bra will be addressed in the story eventually. U18 and U16 have had limited interaction since the beginning of the story. There's a reason for that.

ltsarge:

I'd be happy to argue at length over female portrayals vs male, so if u'd like to merge some of this over to a new thread that be fine with me.

Me: Hopefully, they don’t do that. Not because I think they’ll lose any argument or whatever you’d have with them, but out of the fact that whenever they DO point out flaws in your arguments and show you evidence you’ll just conveniently ignore them. You’re def. not someone worth conversing with.

Me: And seriously, why would you liked their last post to you?

prphd and ltsarge like this

Me: I mean with the way you went after them, I’d rather they didn’t get a like from you let alone anything else (although, this could be your way of respecting your opponent or whatever you would refer to them as, still, it doesn’t make it any less awkward seeing as how antagonistic you had been towards that person, a stranger no less...who you try to inject your thoughts and feelings towards while replying to their post when it wasn’t warranted).

Me: And some Anti-SJWs wonder, bitterly, on why some social justice advocates don’t take them seriously. Let alone obligate themselves to even talk things out with them.