#but wok-wor are literally the two books i love the most

[magnusbae]

I confess, I am... kinda excited ; w ;

[st-just]

Semi-coherent thoughts on Oathbringer

So, overall probably the most even of the series so far, I’d say? Not to say I didn’t like it – I really, really loved the finale, and there were plenty of great lines, but my god were there a lot of pages spent on nothing happening (honestly it kind of reminded me of the latter volumes of ASOIF, in that sense) – then again, I suppose that is kind of just the nature of these 1000+ page fantasy epics. There were some setting reveals that really were fascinating, and legitimately a bit surprising. Going to have to take a break from the series until the friend I got Rhythm of War for is done so I can borrow it, though I suppose that’s no huge loss compared to the however many years everyone else had to wait in between them.

So in terms of pacing it’s...bad. Or, well, that’s probably a bit unfair. There’s absolutely plenty of fat to cute, but again I do think that might just come with the territory of committing to like a dozen POVs across a tree’s worth of paper (though there were absolutely like 100+ page stretches where I’m not actually sure the plot meaningfully progressed). That said, honestly the main pacing issue isn’t so much the bloat as, like – okay, Dalinar’s arc was a pretty consistent throughline, but for Kalidan and Shallan it kind of felt like there was one whole story in Urithiru, and then from the mission to Kholinar and the journey through the Cognitive Realm felt like its own separate novel? I mean, not sure if that makes any sense, but it really did kind of feel like there was a whole additional first act of table and stakes setting once they arrived in the city.

Though, to argue in favor of bloat for a moment – I was chatting with  @lifeattomsdiner​ bit back about The City We Became, and they mentioned that the size of the cast meant that you don’t actually really get to know any of the protagonists that well on their own. And I suppose that is the advantage of the 1200-page-per-volume epic cycle – even with characters you only really meet in interludes like Szeth, Vargo and Venli (incidentally three of my favorites), you spend enough pages inside of their head that you do really get to see what makes them tick and learn to love/hate them. Speaking of – props to Sanderson as an author, really – it’s vaguely astounding that he manages to keep track of that many internal monologues and actually make them seem distinct from each other.

Breaking things down by character a bit more – this book really did actually enjoy/get invested in Dalinar way more than either of the previous two, which again I’m told is more or less the expected reaction. Given the amount of tumblr brain poison I’m voluntarily exposed myself to, it’s honestly more than a bit of a nice change to see a character on a redemption arc who is actually unambiguously in need of redemption. Because holy shit, pulled, like, exactly two punches in terms of making the guy as genuinely loathsome as possible before he starts breaking. And, well, obviously he was on a redemption arc, but there was a bit near the end there where I really did think that the book was going to cut to black on an ‘end of Act 2, maximum darkness before dawn’ moment with, like, all the Skybreakers and him kneeling before Odium as the city fell. But I suppose that would be a bit much of a cliffhanger for a series with installments this weighty.

This was pretty clearly Shallan’s ‘getting over my personal bullshit’ book, like WoR was for Kaladin and WoK was for Dalinar, though spicing things up with increasingly severe DID as the book went on did make things more interesting at least. Also, I have no idea if this is actually true, but according to the friend who pestered me into reading these when someone asked Sanderson if he’d intentionally written her as bi he just kind of shrugged and said ‘sure, why not,’ which is fun. It was more than a bit, I don’t know, forced?, to have Wit just wander in from stage left and give her a desperately needed therapy session while she was in the middle of a breakdown and propel her development for most of the rest of the book, but on the other hand she’s pretty easily the main POV I’m most invested in by now, and the live triangle the text repeatedly threatened me with never actually became a thing, so I can’t really complain too much. Honestly super curious about the Ghostbloods and what they want out of her given, well, for a shadowy murderous conspiracy, everything they’ve wanted out of her so far has been pretty much entirely benign. Like, of the three major shadowy murderous conspiracies they’re easily the least problematic for the future of humanity at the moment. She should just commit and join for real imo.

As always, Kaladin’s POV is mostly good because it means we get more Syl, who is the single best character in the entire story I’ve decided. But also, I really quite liked his whole sojourn with the newly freed Parshmen and dawning realization that ‘wait these people are basically entirely right’. Also, the delicious delicious angst of spending however many dozens of pages getting to know them and then the wall guard and then the two groups killing each other in a confused melee while he has a mental breakdown. Easily best moment in the book (but then I’m a miserable person).

Adolin is honestly significantly more entertaining to follow than I really expected, though I’m still not like especially invested in him as a character. His relationship with his tailor was quite charming, though, as was the fact that he cares enough about fashion that he learned to sew. Honestly I was rather expecting/slightly dreading his main arc this book to be, like, inadequacy or insecurity over being almost literally the only member of his family that’s not a Radiant, so it’s kind of a pleasant surprise that he seems to have just accepted that (too well-adjust, I guess?). It is however extremely funny that the fact he just straight-up murdered one of the kingdom’s most important aristocrats and the major antagonist of the first two books seems to have resulted in absolutely zero consequences of any kind for him.

In terms of minor characters, the one I’m most invested in by a pretty substantial margin at this point is Venli, as she’s getting a front row seat to all the most interesting bits of the setting, ‘cultist growing increasingly disillusioned about return of ancient and terrible eldritch god’ is a really entertaining character arc just in principle, and because as of the end of the book she represents the morally objectively correct perspective and political line I’ve decided and will fight people about. Curious what sort of superpowers she’ll get. (Vargo and Szeth are still both great though, too).

The Unmade are really fun as a worldbuilding conceit/excuse for weird fucked up monsters. And it really is kind of funny that at least a third of the God of Evil��s nine generals/children/favoured beasts are, like, at conflicted or ambivalent about the whole ‘exterminate humanity and remake the world as a monument to my glory’ thing.  

Really, on an extremely shallow and entirely aesthetic level, between the evil red crystal/lightning aesthetic, the remote mountain fortress as a stronghold of the heroes in the face of the coming apocalypse, tears into the realm of spirits, the quirky evil minibosses each handling corrupting/conquering a given center of civilization, etc, the whole thing kind of reminded me of Dragon Age Inquisition. Which reminded me of how disappointing the story to that game was, which made me like the book more by comparison, but anyway. Yeah, good book.

[neuxue]

Oathbringer thoughts

I was hoping to be able to liveblog Oathbringer, but it turns out I was too optimistic by half. Well, by about 5/28 anyway, given that I have two and a half WoT books left. I thought about just waiting to read Oathbringer (if there’s anything liveblogging WoT has taught me it’s patience) but I’m going to the Sanderson signing tomorrow so I was running out of time. Anyway, here are some thoughts upon finishing, for the 2 or 3 of you who are interested. I was reading probably a little too fast, so probably missed everything and will at some point need to reread, but here you go.

LOTS OF SPOILERS BELOW. ALL THE SPOILERS. HERE THERE BE SPOILERS. 

In no particular order (but there are 10: a nicely Vorin number to go with my coincidentally Vorin username)

1. Talenel. Taln. Talenelat’Elin. Stonesinew, Herald of War, Bearer of all Agonies. 

That guy.

Taln was a Problem for me literally from the moment he was introduced in the Prelude (offscreen! He didn’t even show up on-page! Why am I like this?!) with the line “Taln had a tendency to choose seemingly hopeless fights and win them. He also had a tendency to die in the process”. A doomed last stand in the form of a character. Why would you do this to me. 

So I’m sure you can guess that Chapter 38 (‘Broken People’ what a chapter title) thoroughly broke me. I mean, it wasn’t even anything we didn’t already know, really. But... “The nine realised that one of them had never broken.” And “The Bearer of Agonies. The one abandoned in Damnation. Left to withstand the tortures alone.” And the fact that it took four and a half millennia for him to break.

I’ve long had a fascination with the idea of ‘everyone has a breaking point’ (when I was 11 I tried to write a novel based entirely on the concept of someone who does not - or cannot - break; the ‘cannot’ turned out to be a rather interesting thing to explore, but the story overall was terrible because, amongst other reasons, I was 11) and with the idea of breaking characters, and what it would take to break certain characters, and what the result would be. 

As I mentioned, I also have a thing for doomed last stands, so basically Talenel was created to be my breaking point, it would seem. (“Herald Talenelat during several of his many, many last stands...” just @ me next time)

And then. And then 

“Four thousand years?” She held his hand tighter. “I’m sorry. I’m sorry.” [...] “Four thousand years?” Taln asked again. “Ash...” “We couldn’t continue--I...we thought...” “Ash.” He took her hand again. “What a wonderful thing.” Wonderful? “We left you, Taln.” “What a gift you gave them! Time to recover, for once, between Desolations. Time to progress. They never had a chance before. But this time...yes, maybe they do.”

And then...lucidity abandons him, because he is broken, and it’s been four thousand years. But in that one moment, in the moment when he is briefly himself, it’s as if he isn’t broken at all. The fact that this still exists within him, even if the rest of the time he’s found a refuge in madness or forgetting or in the recitation he gives over and over, the advice he needs to give to humanity, the duty he has to them. It’s like name, rank, serial number. It’s very probably the thing he held on to throughout those four and a half thousand years, the thing he could not allow himself to let go of or forget, even as he broke. And the thought that the one point he fixed on, the thing he held fast to even as he broke, was his duty to humankind, is...a lot.

2. Speaking of Taln, let’s talk a little bit about Kaladin

There are plenty of things I could say about Kaladin, but I mostly just want to throw a few quotes out there For Your Interest. Because...I don’t know if there’s anything to this but here.

Quotes about Taln:

“The one who wasn’t meant to have joined them in the first place, the one who was not a king, scholar, or general” 

Um.

“One of them had never broken.”

Quotes about or by Kaladin Stormblessed (surgeon’s son, neither king nor scholar nor general):

“That granite will, that warrior’s poise.” 

(As an aside, how do granite and obsidian exist on a planet with no tectonics? How???)

“Ten spears go to battle” [Kaladin] whispered, “and nine shatter. Did that war forge the one that remained? No, Amaram. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break.”

One unbroken, of ten. 

Eight months. Eight months as a slave, eight months of slop and beatings. It might as well have been an eternity. --from Way of Kings

An eternity of torture? Also Taln’s Scar is high in the sky during Kaladin’s time as a slave. Maybe meaningless. 

Why were they going through all of this? What was the point? Why were they running so much? They had to protect their bridge, the precious weight, the cargo. They had to hold up the sky and run, they had to... --Kaladin’s thoughts, WoK

Take that just a little out of immediate context and that last part especially sure sounds like someone tasked with endless agony for the sake of the world

Yet the sheer glory of what he did seemed at odds with the desolation he caused --Kaladin’s thoughts, WoK

Somewhat less relevant to the thing I’m sort of vaguely postulating but still an interesting choice of words, and the Desolations happen when the Heralds break and return, so.

“His body dead, but not his will” --Hoid, WoR, telling the ‘Fleet’ story

Taln dies a lot. It’s sort of his thing. But his will takes four millennia to break.

“Then I hope I end up in Damnation.” --Kaladin, WoR

I’m just saying.

Maybe it’s nothing. Maybe it’s leftover from one of the things I got hilariously wrong when first reading WoK - obviously Kaladin was gaining the powers of a Radiant but I really, really wanted him to somehow be Taln. (Amusingly, I read Way of Kings before I started Wheel of Time, otherwise it would be easy to see where this notion came from). Maybe it’s Maybelline. Regardless, it’s an interesting set of possible parallels.

3. Wow, he just up and told us what caused the Recreance in book three. 

And it felt like the perfect time for it. It’s the sort of thing you’d normally expect an author to sit on for more or less the entire series. I was tentatively prepared to wait for at least the first five books before getting this much stated outright on-page. 

I’m so glad Sanderson gave it to us now, instead. For one thing, it felt oddly refreshing to have such a big question answered so early. Playing the long game with reveals can work, obviously, but it’s fun to mix things up a bit. It also plays into some of what I ended up talking about in the ‘Dalinar’ section of this list regarding plot twists and the execution thereof. The Recreance is a good example, because it was revealed in full at the point in the story when it could have the impact it needed to have. In-story, it was both the probable and logical time for the secret to come out - it would have started to strain suspension of disbelief if that many characters had some knowledge of it, and none of them ever put it together on-page either in their own thoughts or for the other characters. For the reader, it brings everything together at a point when it’s all very relevant, and at a point when there’s enough information to figure it out if you’re careful and lucky, but not so much that it loses all surprise value whatsoever (For the record, I was close about a lot of it, but there were some pieces I missed and/or put in the wrong place. It did, however, satisfy the one thing I was really hoping it would). 

Narratively and thematically, it makes sense alongside the other questions that are being asked or otherwise addressed - the issue of colonisation and ownership and agency, the question of war and protection and the justifications for either or both, the contrast of unity and division, and of course the question of oaths and honour and betrayal.  

Answering this question now also makes the whole story suddenly feel so much bigger, because when something set up to be this much of a central question is almost just handed to you, it serves to put it into perspective. It makes the rest of the story, and next set of questions we’re starting to ask, and the questions we don’t even yet know to ask, seem so much larger, and the story so much vaster. 

4. OH THANK THE LISTENING GODS THE LOVE TRIANGLE SPUTTERED AND DIED BEFORE IT COULD EAT EVERYTHING 

I breathed an actual literal sigh of relief. I hate love triangles so much, mostly because I usually struggle to maintain ‘bored indifference’ rather than outright irritation at romance subplots in general, so love triangles are almost always intolerable because not only do they double the romance but they turn it into a point of conflict and miscommunication and angst and I cannot fucking stand it. If I had a dragon for every unnecessary love triangle I’ve had to read, I’d have been able to take over the world a long time ago. Or have the world’s most epic bonfire. 

Anyway. Through WoR (and I guess WoK but to a lesser extent) I was torn between trusting Sanderson to avoid or subvert that particular cliche and...not trusting him to do that. There are a lot of things I do trust him with as a storyteller (especially one who has clearly evolved in his writing, storytelling, and awareness) but I wasn’t sure if I could trust him on this. He earned quite a bit of trust from me for how he ended up writing this, actually.

The exact moment I breathed that sigh of relief? It was the conversation Shallan and Kaladin had about her particular coping mechanism. Specifically: 

“No. No, Shallan! I wish I could do the same. [...] How nice would it be, if I could simply shove it all away? Storms.” [...] “This way, I’ll never face it,” Shallan said. “It’s better than being unable to function.” “That’s what I tell myself.”

Because this was the moment when it became exceedingly, abundantly, absolutely clear that Sanderson was doing this on purpose. I had hoped he was, because this was something that felt off about Kaladin and Shallan during their chasms conversation in WoR as well (the ‘she smiled anyway’ thing), but then there was the possibility that it was...accidental. Now, though, I have significantly more faith in Sanderson, because this is a really...I can’t think of the word but I’m glad he did this the way he did.

And I am SO INCREDIBLY GLAD THE LOVE TRIANGLE DIED. And the way in which it died. And the fact that everyone involved respected its death. And that it didn’t stop the characters involved from communicating with and trusting one another. And also that said death included the line “Shallan. he can literally fly.”

(Adolin Kholin is not straight. Just tossing that out there).

(Shallan consistently using the word ‘passion’ when thinking about or describing Kaladin is interesting, though, in light of certain other reveals. Not sure if there’s actually anything to that, but it’s just a thing that stood out).

5. Dalinar

So the identity of Odium’s Champion was one of the things I saw coming as soon as the champion idea was mentioned in this book. (It was brought up in previous books and this was one of my theories but I definitely wasn’t certain, and I was also Distracted by what I wanted to have happen, which is not something that would ever actually happen. I’ll write the fic at some point). 

Anyway, it was predictable...but that didn’t matter, because it was beautifully executed. “You cannot have my pain” is a cool line out of context, but in context it was magnificent. 

I like the way Sanderson does plot twists, because unlike with some authors, it doesn’t feel as if his sole intent is to be able to say ‘ha ha, tricked you, aren’t I so clever’. His goal, it seems, is to tell a satisfying story. Rather than withholding all of the information relevant to the ‘twist’ to make it actually impossible to guess (which doesn’t make you a master of the plot twist so much as it makes you an asshole), he includes the necessary and sufficient foreshadowing to allow the ‘twist’ to make sense and not feel like it came out of nowhere. 

This means, of course, that some readers are going to guess it in advance. That’s just how it works. If you put the information out there, some people are going to put it together correctly and completely. Some people are going to put some of it together, and have a sense of where things are heading. Some people are going to be absolutely sure of where it’s heading...and then be completely wrong. Some people are going to have absolutely no clue. The truly impressive plot twist, I find, is the one that can satisfy people in all of those categories. YMMV of course, but having been in each of these positions at least once while reading Sanderson’s books, I feel like he manages this impressively well. It’s fun if it’s at least a little bit of a surprise, but even when it’s not, it’s satisfying because it’s written as part of the story - as a point of emotional or narrative impact, or a turning point for the characters - well enough that it still has the desired effect. Mostly because ‘gotcha’ isn’t the (only) desired effect.

I digress somewhat.

So before we move on, I’d also like to point out that Dalinar Kholin and Lews Therin Telamon clearly need to form a support group for men who murdered their wives in a fit of madness and fucked with the psyche, memory, and identity of their future selves.

6. “The apocalypse is coming; we don’t have time for bullshit gender roles”

Adolin being absolutely here for Shallan-with-Shardblade. Kaladin going ‘yeah okay’ to women joining the Windrunners. Dalinar learning to read. Jasnah as queen because honestly was there ever actually another choice? 

This is another one that’s just so refreshing to see, especially because it’s clearly something that’s being deliberately examined and played with, but is also integrated into the story. It doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb the author didn’t know what to do with, but it also plays a very real role in the story. It’s not just there so the author can point to the one sword-wielding woman in a cast of thousands of dudes and say ‘but I gave you a Strong Female Character’. 

This ties into something I really appreciate about Sanderson, which is his demonstrated ability and willingness to learn and grow when it comes to issues of representation - not just in terms of including it, but in how he includes it. 

7. Venli

I don’t have a lot to say about her except that I was genuinely surprised by this one. So well done on that, Sanderson.

Also, given his propensity for writing brothers in love with the same woman, I’m almost surprised we didn’t get some sort of reveal about Venli and Eshonai loving the same person.

8. Cosmere convergence

There was a lot more than I expected at this point in the...series? Continuity? Mass of interconnected stories that have evolved into a semi-eldritch being? I enjoyed it and had no problems with this, but I’d be curious to know what someone who’s only read Stormlight thought - does it still work? Do they just play as intriguing and mysterious characters alongside all the other intriguing and mysterious characters, or has it reached a tipping point where you actually need to have read some of the other books?

Also Cosmere-related...Hoid. He’s sure getting more and more screen time, isn’t he? I’m Interested. I have Thoughts. I need to think about them more but I definitely have some Thoughts on who and what he is. Regardless, any character who can say “if I have to watch this world crumble and burn to get what I need, I will do so. With tears, yes, but I would let it happen” is going to Interest me. Not to mention the sheer number of times he tells various characters not to trust him. And then there’s “you turned your back on divinity.” Which is...um. Yeah I’m fine this is fine.

9. Odium

Has to be number 9, because of reasons. Odium was great. Nice subversion of imagery there, and to great effect. 

10. Ideals and Oaths

I mostly find it amusing how a book called Oathbringer is the first to plainly exhibit failed Ideals. Elhokar. Kaladin. (My best guess at the Windrunners’ Fourth Ideal would be something along the lines of “I will protect those I can, and forgive myself for those I cannot” but I’ll have to reread and see if that holds up). The broken Oathpact (there’s a part of me that really wants the gem-encrusted probably-a-fabrial-of-some-sort pillar to be the Oathpact; its manifestation or sealing or what-have-you. Not sure that holds up though). It’s a fun little irony.

[kogiopsis]

horizonproblems reblogged your post and added:

If you don’t mind me asking - what are thoughts on Kaladin/Shallan as a (potential) romantic couple? Recently someone told me that they think there’s a lot of unresolved sexual/romantic tension between the two, and I… Just don’t see it, partially because of what you mention here (boots scene, chasm scene, Kaladin generally being exasperated in Shallan’s presence and thinking so). I’m not trying to start a ship war (I don’t really care if people ship it, personally I headcanon Kaladin as aroace), so I understand if you don’t want to answer this! But I know that as an aromantic person a lot of the romance nuance/flirting stuff flies right over my head, so I was left wondering if my initial assessment was blatantly wrong…

I wanted to respond to this in a separate post lest the conversation overtake themalhambird’s original, so...

First, a necessary preface:  I have been crossing my fingers against Kaladin/Shallan since... before WoK came out.  I happened to read a galley copy, and pretty much as soon as I saw the descriptions they get in the flap copy, I had the sinking feeling that they would be the Designated Hetero Hero Ship.  The fact that they didn’t meet at all in WoK was gratifying!  But... WoR.

So, okay, up front: one of the reasons I’m not fond of Shalladin is that I think it’s obvious.  ‘Guy Hero and Girl Hero fall in love!’ is a story I’ve read too much, and while I do trust Brandon to give it great nuance and make it interesting, I’m still just... tired of it on a fundamental level.  And especially in a series with the scope of Stormlight, it seems simplistic.  We’re looking at more than ten thousand pages in this story; surely relationships can develop more unconventionally!

That’s the meta stuff.  The textual stuff all came up in WoR.

There are a lot of essays I want to write about Words of Radiance, to be honest.  I think it’s absolutely brilliant, and... I’m gonna be that asshole here and say that I also think a lot of people didn’t get it.  In particular, a lot of people didn’t get Kaladin in this book, and I’m a little touchy about that, ‘cause hey!  complex depression narratives with the kind of halting, nonlinear progression that’s realistic - that means a lot to me.  I’ve seen a lot of negativity towards Kaladin at his low points on WoR which comes off as very shallow - people angry at his decision, however temporary, that Elhokar’s death is necessary.

Here are the things I feel get overlooked the most:

Depression/trauma can’t just get magically fixed and there will be downswings even in a positively-trending healing process

Kaladin has EVERY reason not to trust lighteyes, especially those in power

Kaladin is not privy to information the reader has, to wit:  that Dalinar and Adolin are genuinely good people who can be trusted, and that Elhokar is more clueless than dangerous.

All this links back to Shallan/Shalladin because of those last two points.  A lot of the things about Kaladin’s perspective that get ignored or glossed over have to do with knowledge that the reader has.  (an aside:  there’s an... interesting difference in how the fandom treats Kaladin’s resentment of the upper class vs how it treats Kelsier’s.  The lighteyes are just as abusive of those below them as Luthadel’s nobility... but interestingly, we don’t have a sympathetic Luthadel noble POV in Mistborn:  The Final Empire.  Hmm.)

Anyway, so:  that class thing.  It’s a big deal.

Now, I’ve got no issues with Shallan being a flawed character.  In fact, I love her for it!  She’s got a lot of blindspots, misconceptions, and prejudices to wrestle with, and right now she’s balanced on a knife edge re: whether she unravels them or reinforces them.  I find that fascinating, and I am transfixed by her every rash decision or carefully calculated maybe-misstep.  I look forward to what happens either if she chooses to learn and grow, or if she strays further into the shadows with the Ghostbloods - either way will be a good story.  (As it will be if she continues to struggle in between.)

The thing is that... I think Shallan’s successes tend to overshadow the deeper problems she struggles with, especially in reader perceptions.  She is, generally, fabulously competent in Words of Radiance.  She infiltrates the Ghostbloods, finds Urithiru, charms Tyn and the mercenaries into doing what she wants - she steps out of Jasnah’s shadow and she really does shine.

But she doesn’t allow that light into her own dark places.

Shallan, like Kaladin and probably most Radiants, struggles with past trauma - but she does it differently.  She not only metaphorically locks her past away, she does it explicitly - see ‘Red Carpet, Once White’.  She reinvents herself time and again and not even to Pattern, an actual literal truthspren, does she willingly engage with her past and her secrets.  Kaladin, for all his struggles and steps backwards, is healing.  Shallan is treading water at best.

The chasm scenes illustrate these problems extraordinarily well.

On class:

“It’s the fault of your entire class.  Each time one of us is defrauded, enslaved, beaten, or broken, the blame rests upon all of you who support it.  Even indirectly.” “Oh please,” she said.  “The world isn’t fair?  What a huge revelation!  Some people in power abuse those they have power over?  Amazing!  When did this start happening?”

She then tries to suggest that what he’s gone through isn’t because he’s darkeyed, but because of his personality.

Now, to Shallan’s credit:

“You want a better example of you playing with people beneath you?” Kaladin asked, dodging her question.  “Fine.  You stole my boots.  You pretended to be someone you weren’t and bullied a darkeyed guard you’d barely met.  Is that a good enough example of you playing with someone you saw as beneath you?” She stopped in her tracks.  He was right, there.  She wanted to blame Tyn’s influence, but his comment cut the bite out of her argument.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t take her long to go back to insulting... pretty much everything about him.  She gets her good mood back by calling Kaladin stupid:

“I’m really not very witty.  You just happen to be stupid, so it seems that way.  Contrast, remember?” She smiled at him, then continued on her way, humming to herself.  Actually, the day was looking much better.  Why had she been in a bad mood earlier?

Not my girl’s shining moment, this.

There are other bits - her casual dismissal of the idea that parshmen would be replaced by darkeyed slaves (even followed with an apology to Kaladin... yikes?); the fact that she goads him into a conversation about class that he explicitly says he doesn’t want to have; she makes a joke about getting him to carry her and then whipping him and then there’s... this.

Shallan nodded, holding his eyes.  “Yes.  It would be nice if nobody in the world knew of those things, Kaladin Stormblessed.  I agree.  With everything I have.” He saw it in her eyes.  The anguish, the frustration.  The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her.  She knew.  It was there, inside.  she had been broken. Then she smiled.  Oh, storms.  She smiled anyway. It was the single most beautiful thing he’d seen in his entire life.

The whole conversation leading up to this (page 848 in hardcover) is actually a really good illustration of their different thinking patterns.  Kaladin takes too much responsibility for his actions; Shallan takes too little.  Kaladin lets the past drag him down, while Shallan brushes it off to her own detriment.  And Kaladin, from his own skewed perspective, seems to perceive Shallan’s deliberate distancing as evidence of recovery.

During the highstorm, they have a sort of honest conversation, which is progress especially for Shallan.  She admits to killing her father, and to the truth of her childhood, and...

He listened with wonder.  Storms.  Why wasn’t this woman broken, truly broken?  She described herself that way, but she was no more broken than a spear with a chipped blade - and a spear like that could still be as sharp a weapon as any.  He preferred one with a score or two on the blade, a worn handle.

Kaladin hears her tell the truth for once, and he still sees recovery.  And to be fair, Shallan has managed a great deal.  She could be in a much worse mental state.  But she’s so, so not okay.

“I hate you,” she whispered, staring into her mother’s dead eyes. “I know.”  Pattern buzzed softly.  “Eventually, you will kill me, and you will have your revenge.” “I don’t want revenge.  I want my family.” Shallan wrapped her arms around herself and buried her head in them, weeping as the illusion bled white smoke, then vanished, leaving her in an empty room.

Shallan is doing well, relatively speaking, and she’s accomplished a lot, but this?  this scene is a giant neon sign pointing to her self-destructive tendencies and weakened foundations.  This is the crumbling of her facade and potentially very, very bad foreshadowing for what might be to come.  To kill Pattern, after all, she’d have to break her Oaths - and we know one of our lead characters is fated to be a destroyer...

The point being:  Shallan is a consummate liar at this point in her life, and Kaladin is still persuaded by some of her deepest lies.  His perception of her feels pedestalized and their relationship, such as it is, is based on falsehoods.  (Granted, so are all of Shallan’s relationships - and personally, I don’t see any romantic entanglement ending well until she confronts, processes, and deals with her issues.  At least another book’s span, if not more.)

Kaladin is in no place to be the kind of supportive partner she needs to move forward, because as we saw, he’s still struggling with his own shit.  Neither do I think he would deal well with necessary revelations about Shallan’s activities with the Ghostbloods, especially if they were romantically involved.  The extra layer of weight and tension that that would bring would just make things worse (not to mention potential conflict with Adolin, a schism that our protagonists really can’t afford).

TL;DR:  I think as a couple Shalladin would be messy and eventually explosive and would likely set both of them back in their personal development.

As for what I would point to as evidence that there is meant to be romantic/sexual tension between them... I collected a few quotes when I was rereading parts for this essay.

There was a sort of rugged handsomeness to the fellow.  Like the beauty of a natural rock formation, as opposed to a fine sculpture like Adolin. But Kaladin’s intensity, that frightened her. 

He stared into her eyes.  So intense.  She felt a shiver meeting that expression.  This was a man of passion.

It has been my experience that this is often shorthand for heterosexual attraction from a female POV.  The ‘frightening intensity’ thing is also a parallel to Dalinar and Navani.

The first hint that Kaladin may be feeling attraction to her is when Shallan makes a joke about kissing Adolin and that ‘dampens his mood’.  This could definitely be read as aroace Kal being salty about romance in general, but...

He was suddenly aware of her pressed against his back.  Holding him, breath warm on his neck.  She trembled, and he thought he could hear in her voice both terror and fascination at their situation.

For now, he wanted to think - though he was still glad for her presence.  And aware of it in more ways than one, pushed against him and wearing the wet, increasingly tattered dress.

This is the physical attraction bit.  That second quote is, IMO, about as close as we’re going to get to Sanderson saying “he had an erection”.  Again, common het shorthand in the word choice here:  ‘aware’ is often used as a euphemism for arousal; warmth and wetness also have sexual connotations, and ‘pushed’ (or ‘pressed’) often appear in scenes amping up sexual tension between a hero and heroine.

I would pull more, but it’s a few lines in a few scenes during the Sanderlanche and I don’t want to slog through that just now.  But... yeah.  As much as I wish it weren’t so, I’m pretty confident in saying Sanderson is implying attraction here.

[greatfay]

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My Top Posts in 2021

#5

she’s so cute!!! 😍

53 notes • Posted 2021-11-22 18:11:38 GMT

#4

Artemis Fowl deserves a proper adaptation in the style of The Umbrella Academy but more age-appropriate, like imagine that cinematography and pop-culturally ambiguous costuming and set design, music choices, and quirky humor. It’s one of those books that’s already pretty odd and funny and smart and the protagonist is a pretentious, scheming, 12-year-old criminal mastermind and you’ve just got to play it straight with a teaspoon of camp. And maybe this time not race-bend the brown elf girl into a white girl and not make the loyal-to-the-death bodyguard named Butler black.

73 notes • Posted 2021-11-29 02:38:21 GMT

#3

//SHINSŌ HITOSHI//

89 notes • Posted 2021-04-13 05:14:53 GMT

#2

the difference between Artemis Fowl and Light Yagami is what happens when your dad runs the criminal underworld vs when your dad is a fucking cop

141 notes • Posted 2021-11-30 20:48:38 GMT

#1

Ranking Stormlight protagonists by their honesty/secrets

Dalinar: what’s a secret lol? Day 1 he’s like “oi’m havin visions!!” and day 156 he’s like “publish that shit” and day 200 he’s like “let’s be 10000% transparent with the world’s leaders to earn their trust” like this man is so earnest his only secrets are the one a god deleted from his own mind, kudos to his only deception with Amaran in WoR

Navani: a true scientist, she’s like “ok let’s keep this hush hush until we can replicate the experiment in a controlled environment we don’t want to spread false information” and then she publishes shit in academic journals! Navani was like yes I’m fucking Dalinar, yes I’m girlboss, and what about it? King and Queen of No Secrets, love these two.

Jasnah: should theoretically be the most secretive person in the main cast and yet halfway through WoK she’s like lol watch me turn these rapists into flame, smoke, and crystal in public, also an out and proud lesbian atheist, publishes her theories and research instead of hoarding it—would keep more secrets if her flair for dramatic didn’t compel her to grand reveals and entrances.

Moash: “I’m moody and have a dark past don’t FUCKIN ask me about it—by the way here’s exactly where these three lighteyes in particular got me fucked up.” Moash saw Kaladin bathing in the stormmoonlight and said unnff 😩 I’m an open book zaddyyy. Literally exposes a shadow group’s coup attempt after one drink. Can’t even keep secrets from himself or throw away his Bridge Four patch. Gloomspren form around his head in the shape of MCR band members.

Shallan: secrets wrapped in secrets wrapped in secrets. This girl has so many different personas she’s like a 2014 tumblr kinnie. Ranked lower than others because she’s often so frazzled you can seeeeee the secrets leeching out, and she at least tells people important things when she gets to the bottom of something. Actually half the secrets she keeps are out of guilt of being discovered. Could really use therapy and perhaps a quarter pounder with the Mac sauce.

Kaladin: how did Kaladin, Mr. Honorable-Bound-To-An-Honorspren end up this far down the list? Because despite his zero gravity powers, he’s dense as the fucking moon. Hey Kaladin you noticed something weird, like Shallan’s illusions can’t cover your scar? Maybe tell someone? No? Okay! This man doesn’t tell anyone anything even when it would’ve made things easier, he just has no filter for “this might be important” because what’s important to him involves his spear. Still hasn’t shared his Tragic Backstory with more than 1 person (and 1 spren—but only because she was sort of there.)

Adolin: King of Secrets. Bicon. Fashionista. Maxxinista. Got his nipples pierced at Claire’s. Adolin was like “lol I fucking murdered this guy” except no he never said that because he didn’t tell a fucking soul and just rode that wave until it fizzled out. Don’t feel bad, baby, your father slaughtered thousands, including his own men, and half-orphaned you! What’s one greasy Big Bitch Energy snake over the Blackthorn’s mass graves?

421 notes • Posted 2021-03-07 17:26:12 GMT

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