#chara is referred to as the FIRST fallen child. meaning no adoptions or souls before them

[stainedglassthreads]

Not much evidence for this, but I think monsters age weird in Undertale, but like humans in Deltarune. 

In Undertale, the timeline is kinda all over the place. We know that swords and magic were used by humans in the war against monsters, we know that Chara fell in the year 201x, and we know that Frisk fell an indefinite period of time later, but we don’t know how long-- in fanworks, I’ve seen the time range wildly from ‘six souls were collected in the space of about ten years’ to ‘six souls were collected in the space of a few hundred years’. The amalgamates and Mettaton probably happened somewhat recently, but a lot of monsters, especially younger ones like Monster Kid, imply they’ve never met a human before in their lifetimes. 

But we do have three certain examples of really ancient monsters. We have Gerson. Gerson is an elderly turtle who states he’s ‘been around a long time’, and that ‘studying history is easy when you’ve lived through a lot of it yourself.’ He’s also quite knowledgeable about the Delta Rune, prophecy, and how boss monsters age, being the only one to explain these things in depth, though even he knows little about the Delta Rune in the end. It’s popular fanon that he earned his moniker, ‘Hammer of Justice’, in the War. It’s also known that in real life, turtles and tortoises are extremely long-lived animals. 

It’s also popular fanon that Toriel and Asgore were alive during the war, due to how the King of Monsters in the cutscene heavily resembles Asgore. We know from Gerson that Boss Monsters only age when their parents or child are still alive. Without parents, and with Asriel dead, both have been stuck in a sort of stasis for an indefinite period of time. 

But in Deltarune, Asriel never died. So it could simply be the case that boss monsters still age Weird. If not for two minor things-- 

One, Gerson is dead. Two, the Light World, despite being populated by monsters, is painted as extremely mundane to contrast with the fantastical nature of the Dark World. Lightners seem to lack magic, as Noelle mentions one of the positives of the Dark World being magic that easily heals injuries-- the implication probably being, there is no such simple cure that can easily save Rudy. Other smaller examples include how Toriel seems to use a stove to bake, while Undertale specifically noted she used fire magic and her stove was clean, as well as the debates over whether or not monster Lightners dust upon death, and whether or not they have blood. 

Since Asriel never died, and since no one’s specifically explained how all monsters age in Undertale AND Deltarune, only boss monsters, this is gonna be kinda hard to prove, like proving a negative. Maybe Gerson’s a boss monster who never had a kid in Undertale, but did have on in Deltarune. maybe there was a tragic accident in Deltarune that led to Gerson’s death, rather than it being of old age. Maybe he never really died, and instead disappeared into some Dark World. Some of these questions may be answered in later chapters, but there’s a good chance that monster ages will be left really ambiguous, I feel like. 

Edit: I forgot that Undyne claims UT Gerson actually did fight in the war. So if this is true, Gerson lived from when humans commonly used swords and magic, to an indefinite number of years after 201x. Not actually fanon. Whoops. 

[argentdandelion]

Flowey and PTSD (Part 1)

Part 1: Introduction and Symptoms     Part 2: Treatment and Conclusions

Introduction and Thesis

Above: Something not necessary.

Warning: This post necessarily covers Flowey’s dark, traumatic, and sad backstory. For simplicity’s sake, this article will refer to the first fallen human as "Chara".

In many works, Flowey receives a SOUL or SOULs or regains his original SOUL, gets an Asriel-like body, and acts largely as Asriel. The implicit understanding of these works is that gaining a SOUl and become Asriel-like/Asriel again is the only way Flowey can be happy.

As Devichonee pointed out in a tragically missing post, some of Flowey's symptoms, such as unhappiness, disassociation from reality (i.e. "This is all just a GAME."), and inability to connect with others parallel symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), especially child cases.1 His backstory, after all, is traumatic enough to cause PTSD. By Undertale logic, humans would still have SOULs even after developing PTSD, so Flowey's soullessness isn't necessarily the cause of his symptoms.2 If he does indeed have PTSD, treating it would help him get a happy ending too.

Strong/Best-Supported Symptoms

While Flowey has several symptoms which seem to match a PTSD diagnosis, some symptoms are more consistent or intense than others.

The symptoms which match best are:

“Loss of interest in things they used to enjoy: detachment; general lack of responsiveness; feeling numb”/“Lack of Positive Emotions”

Kind, compassionate Asriel likely enjoyed helping others. He and Chara baked a pie for Asgore, and he initially helped Chara with the buttercup plan with only a little coaxing/manipulation. Note that Flowey first used his power for good: he became “friends” with everyone and “solved all their problems flawlessly”. However, helping others did not make him happy, and he eventually grew bored.

Flowey characterizes himself as "empty inside", and is disconnected (or detached) from others. His soullessness means he cannot feel or understand love and compassion. However, he is not actually emotionless: he can feel a wide variety of emotions. He's even capable of positive ones: he's amused or delighted at the prospect of killing Frisk over and over. Thus, his numbness and "lack of positive emotions" is relative.

“Trouble feeling affectionate”

As a flower, Flowey couldn’t feel love for his parents, no matter how much he tried or how much time he spent with them. While he cannot feel love nor compassion, he nonetheless seems fond of who he thinks is Chara, and arguably even acts affectionate. (“Chara...I think if you're around...just living in the surface world doesn't seem so bad.”) Yet, he probably doesn’t feel affectionate:

“There’s only one person [Chara] I could care about anymore. And even then, I couldn’t TRULY care about them. I just like to think there’s someone out there… Someone that I won’t get tired of.”

“Irritability, more aggressive than before, or even violent” While Flowey is certainly more aggressive and violent than Asriel, it’s unclear whether his irritability is reasonable under the circumstances or related to his PTSD.

“Reenactment of an event for a period of seconds or hours or, very rarely, days/Relieving [sic] the event over and over in thought or in play”

As Devichonee pointed out, when Flowey woke up as a flower he called out for help: his mom, his dad, or anybody. But nobody came. Similarly, when Frisk is trapped in an inescapable ring of bullets in the Omega Flowey fight, he dares them to call for help. When they do, he changes his face to an Asriel/Toriel-like one and says: “Mommy! Daddy! Somebody help!”

The lines "Don't you get it? This is all just a GAME." suggests Flowey thinks his life is just a game. (He's only coincidentally right.) This idea might be a coping mechanism helping him feel better, something that excuses his depravity, or both: coping mechanisms can hurt others.

Weaker/Less-Supported Symptoms

These are less consistent and intense symptoms. Some, arguably, are not PTSD symptoms at all, but are better explained by other factors.

“Becoming very upset when something causes memories of the event”

Flowey may have been so distressed at Frisk repeatedly sparing him at the end of the Omega Flowey fight because it paralleled Asriel's own behavior: kind, compassionate Asriel refused to fight the humans attacking him.

“Intense ongoing fear or sadness” Flowey was sad at Chara’s death, but since the time span of events in the Flowey Runs is unclear, it’s not clear whether his sadness or fear is “intense” or “ongoing”.

“Acting helpless, hopeless or withdrawn”.

Flowey is certainly not helpless; he has powers over time. Yet, his Flowey Runs may suggest feeling hopeless and withdrawn. Before he discovered his power of SAVE, he was despondent. He spent weeks trying to feel some love for his father, but eventually concluded he couldn't love others. He explains that even killing people has grown tiring, and says: "I've done everything this world has to offer" with a somewhat dejected expression.

“Lasting worries and beliefs and people and the world being unsafe” Having absorbed Chara’s SOUL, Asriel brought Chara’s lifeless body to a flower patch in the nearby human village. The humans then attacked him, but he did not fight back. He picked up Chara’s body, went back to the Underground, and died shortly after from his injuries.

Asriel: "This whole time, I've blamed myself for that decision. [to not kill the humans attacking him] "That's why I adopted that horrible view of the world. "Kill or be killed."

Flowey believed being kind and compassionate as Asriel only got him killed, and that if had killed the humans then, he wouldn’t be stuck as a flower and things would be better. Only by the flowerbed speech (see link above) does he stop regretting that decision.

Part 1: Introduction and Symptoms     Part 2: Treatment and Conclusions

Child PTSD is diagnosed only if “symptoms persist for more than 1 month and are adversely affecting the child’s life and level of functioning”. Flowey surely spent more than a month in countless Flowey Runs: if the 9999:99 play time recorded before the Omega Flowey fight is true and not a sign of tampering, Flowey has lived through time loops for at least ~416.69 days (or 13.699 months). ↩︎

Does the Snowman, which doesn't turn to dust when "killed", have a SOUL? (Who knows?) While the character Jerry is a jerk, he surely has a SOUL. ↩︎

[truecantaloupelove-blog]

The Underlying Christian Symbolism in Undertale: Asriel’s Messianic Parallels

         Yesterday we talked about the Devil, so today we’re talking about Christ. Or at least, I should say, Christ-like characters in Undertale. I’m referring of course to Asriel Dreemurr. Despite the brevity of time he actually spends on screen, Asriel is easily one of the most endearing and heartbreaking characters in the entire game, and for Undertale, that’s saying something. Judging from the amount of fan art and fan fictions dedicated to him, he’s left more of an impact on the fanbase than any other character with the exception of Sans. It’s not hard to see why; many consider him to be the purest embodiment of love, pacifisms, and selflessness in the game, yet he’s been dealt the most tragic lot of any of the characters. Effectively, Asriel is the one person you cannot save. But beyond the obvious general parallels of the two figures, is this there something more to this sweet and tragic goat boy than meets the eye?

           I’m of the opinion there is. Finding religious subtexts in video is always a slippery and volatile subject, but in this case, I can’t shake the feeling that the parallels are too pointed to ignore. I don’t think Asriel was meant to be a direct analogue to Jesus in the way characters such as Aslan from the Chronicles of Narnia are. But I find it hard to believe that his character wasn’t at least inspired by Christ, and hopefully by the end of this post you’ll see what I mean.

           The first encounter we could say we have with Asriel is at the very beginning of the game in the form of Flowey. However, there seems to be some debate amongst the fanbase as to whether Asriel and Flowey can even be considered the same character, so polar opposite are their personalities. King Asgore may look like a devil, but Flowey is the closest thing the Underground has to an actual demon in terms of what he does. Much like the Fallen Child, he often works vicariously through others, using temptation and manipulating to coerce people into furthering his plans. Also like the Fallen Child, Flowey is soulless, and thus incapable of feeling love for others. The “Asriel” side of him only re-emerges in the presence of the souls that allowing him to feel compassion once more. Just for that reason alone, I’m going to be treating Asriel and Flowey as separate characters throughout this post, the same way I would consider the entity we meet at the end of the Genocide Route to be something distinct from the original First Child who fell into the Underground. However, that being said, it’s interesting to note that the first and the being we fight is always either Flowey or Asriel, whether one is doing a pacifist, neutral, or genocide playthrough. One way or another, the Flowey/Asriel entity acts as bookends to the entire game and seems to exist on a more meta level than the rest of the cast, when we listen closely to their dialogue.

           First, here are a couple of the more superficial parallels between Asriel and Jesus. Both of them are described as the only naturally born son of a king, but are also described as having adopted siblings, and both are held up as great symbols of hope at their birth. Both at some point claim to be God. Despite this, both of them appear to bring great tragedy and hardship to the lives of all who love them, at least at first. Asriel is very compassionate and gentle to others; the story of how he treated the First Human child could be described as a textbook example of the Good Samaritan. Both figures die unjustly at the hands of their enemies, refusing to fight back despite having the ability to destroy everyone who was harming them. Also, curiously, the name “Asriel” can mean “Prince of God”, in addition to being a portmanteau of the names Asgore and Toriel. This very name is actually used in the Bible for one of the sons of Manasseh, so if it sounds Hebrew in origin, that’s because it is.

           From there the similarities start to deepen. Both Asriel and Jesus have prophecies that refer to them. For Asriel, it’s the Delta Rune that’s said to predate written history, according to Gerson. The Delta Rune is probably going to get its own post at some point because of how packed it is with brilliant symbolism, so I’ll try to be brief here. 

        To put it simply, the Delta Rune is the symbol of an “angel” from above who will cause the underground to go empty, whether by freeing all monsters or by killing all of them. There’s some debate as to who exactly this “angel” is, many would believe it was the player, and in the genocide run, it very well might be. On the pacifist, run, however, the “angel” definitely aligns most closely with Asriel, and the reflection of the Delta Rune’s design in his final form is evidence of this (note the location of the triangles on his body) This is really the only prophecy we know of that links to Asriel directly, but it’s still a prophecy nonetheless.

           Ultimately, Asriel is the one who breaks the barrier and sets all monsters free from the Underworld. Not only this, but he does so at the cost his own life, giving up the souls and reverting back to a flower. If I really have point out to you why this would be reminiscent of Christ, then this blog probably isn’t your cup of tea. But that’s not all. Right before the barrier is shattered, Asriel’s spite rises off of the ground and takes a very particular stance before committing the act. He begins speaking some inaudible words as the souls rush out of him and a really dramatic guitar riff starts playing in the background. But take a close look at that pose. Does it remind you of anything?

           There are some other peculiarities in the following scenes that seem to call back on New Testament imagery. One is the actual depiction of the barrier being shattered. It appears as a white screen cracking in two and the halves separating, before the message “The barrier was destroyed” flashes across the screen. It’s hard to say what exactly most of us were expecting we would see when we witnessed the destruction of the barrier, but I have to imagine that most of us saw this as a very minimalistic approach, almost a letdown, really, to such a dramatic event.

           Or was it?

           I can’t help but look but look at this picture of the barrier being destroyed and not be a little reminded of Matthew 27:50-51, “And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split, and the tombs broke open.”

           Anyone who’s done their theological homework knows that the curtain in the Jewish Temple was a symbol of the separation of God’s holiness and the sins of humanity. In effect, it acted as a barrier between man and God. And with the death of Jesus, that barrier of separation is destroyed. This symbolism wasn’t lost on the New Testament writers, it’s actually quite explicit. Ephesians 2:14 reads “For he [Christ] himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility.”

           Is this starting to get weird yet? Maybe up to this point, I still that all of this could just be a big coincidence, an unlikely set of parallels to the Bible that a video game happens to exhibit, perhaps because these Biblical archetypes are just so ubiquitously ingrained in our culture. And who knows, maybe that’s all it is. 

           But there is one more detail.

           I don’t remember when exactly it was I began to suspect that Undertale might have religious themes woven into its subtext. But perhaps it was around the point I started noticing the subtle topics of death and resurrection within the story, and their connection to the “soul”. The Fallen Child Chara apparently resurrects at the end of the genocide run (though whether that entity is actually Chara seems doubtful). Also, they appear to be communicating within the mind of Frisk, narrating the events on the screen as they happen, leading some to believe that Frisk is actually the reincarnation of Chara. Asriel himself undergoes a twofold resurrection within the game, first as a soulless flower at the hands of Dr. Alphys, and later back to his full being with the absorption of the human souls.

           And then, there are the six other humans who fell underground.

           There are a lot of unanswered mysteries in Undertale, but one of the ones I find the most puzzling is the question of what happened to the human souls when Asriel gave them up to break the barrier? Did they dissipate, were they taken to the afterlife, or did something…else…happen to them? There’s a hint in the game, but it raises more questions than answers.

           If you go past the throne room in Asgore’s palace, you will find a set of stairs leading to his basement. If you follow them all the way down, you will find this room:

           If you try to look into the coffin you find the name of the first human on it, also with the description that it’s empty. By logical extension, the other coffins are the six other children.

           If you go back to the basement after having saved Asriel, when the barrier is broken, you find this:

           All of the tombs are empty and all save the first one are open.

           Let’s go back to Matthew 27 for a second. If we keep reading from where we left off; “…At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split, and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.”

           Uncanny, isn’t it? Why are all the coffins open except for the one already stated to be empty? Where are the bodies? And where is the body of the First Child? Are they really dead?

           We never get any answers, but if you go to check the coffin again, you’ll find the message “The coffin is empty…? You didn’t notice it before, but there’s something like…mummy wrappings at the bottom of it.”

           Most likely these would be grave clothes, or perhaps a shroud. But this seems like an awfully insignificant detail to slip into a room so filled with unanswered questions. All it really tells is that the body isn’t in the coffin anymore. And it wasn’t reburied somewhere else, since the grave clothes were taken off. Does this also sound familiar?

           “So Peter and the other disciple started for Jesus’ tomb. Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.” (John 20:4-8)

           So, what are we to make of this? It’s not uncommon for stories or video games to involve a Messianic archetype, but the detail of symbolism used in this case suggests there might be something more going on with Asriel than your usual stock redeemer character. Coupled with Asriel’s father’s resemblance to Satan, Asriel’s flower alter ego playing a much more actual Satanic character, and the fact that this boy is the one person you CAN’T save, but who essentially dies AFTER resurrecting in the “friendly RPG where no one has to die”, this mystery of Undertale lends itself to some rather confusing, and frankly disturbing, implications.

           Stay safe, folks. Until next time, this is Truecantaloupelove, signing off.

[crossreviews]

Chara

World-destroying demon, or harmless narrating ghost? Innocent child or murderous psychopath? There are a lot of questions on the nature and intentions if the Fallen Human, and I hope i can clear the air a bit. The main thing that people think of in regards to Chara is their appearance at the end of the Genocide route. They speak in a creepy manner and, regardless of the player's choice, destroy the world and leave it a black void. Repeated Genocide playthroughs will have Chara refer to themself as a demon, ready to follow the player to other worlds where there are stats to raise and names to enter. In this sense, Chara is quite long gone. They represent two things at this point: the desire of power in video games, and the consequences that a person must face for their actions. For the first part, remember how a Genocide route is started: repeated encounters and kills to gain EXP and LV. Level grinding, a common aspect of most RPGs. When the player makes the repeated choice in Undertale to get as strong as they can, that's when this demon is created. Consequences appear in the form of a Pacifist run after a Genocide run. When this occurs, in either the final picture or the scene where Toriel brings pie to Frisk, they are quickly replaced by Chara, looking at the screen. Some people interpret this as the idea that Frisk kills everyone after the credits roll, but i don't think its that. Chara only does things with the input of the player. The creepy eyes are there to remind the player of their past sins. Basically, here Chara is saying "Enjoy your happy ending, but don't forget you killed them all before." You cannot escape consequences. However, we must also remember Chara as a character in the game's story. Chara was the first human who fell into the Underground, welcomed into the Dreemurr family as an adopted child. Through the tapes found in the True Lab, we know that they and Asriel were close, and its implied that they loved Asgore and Toriel as well. If Chara was as evil as they are commonly seen to be, then this doesn't make sense. Asriel does say that Chara wasn't a great person, and that they hated humanity. Note that this doesn't mean that Chara hated monsters; again, they would have killed them all if that was the case. Chara was just a misanthrope, and that can happen for any number of reasons. The legend of Mt. Ebbot says that no one returns after climbing it, and yet Chara went there. Was it for curiosity? No, i think it was much deeper than that. Chara hated humanity as a whole. Now, anyone can see a lot of bad people doing bad things and feel down, but normally there are other things that balance it out, like family or friends. But what if you don't have that blessing? What if everyone you know is against you? What then? I know what it's like to constantly be bullied and have no one around to support you. I remember trying to sneak sticks into class to beat my bullies with should they try to hurt me again. I wanted to hurt them, to kill them. Unlike me, Chara didn't have a great family to help ease the lain, nor did they have friends. Otherwise they wouldn't run away up to the place where people don't return. Chara wanted to get away from it all and never come back. I'm happy they did, because it gave them the one thing they hadn't felt in their life: love. And this now leads me into their plan to free the monsters. Right there we know that Chara cares, as they do something to benefit an entire civilization. The plan was to poison themself by eating buttercups, and after their death, Asriel would absorb their soul to pass through the barrier and get more souls to ultimately destroy it. Along the way, Chara's dying wish was to see the flowers of their village one last time. Asriel obliges that wish after absorbing Chara's soul, bringing their body past the barrier to the flowers in the village. It's there that humans find Asriel and assume that he killed Chara. Thus makes sense as, just as there are tales of the War in the Underground, there are most likely stories of it among the humans. Now, humans are seeing a monster after years since the War, and they see him holding a human's body. Naturally, they're scared, and what do humans do to things they're scared of? They attack it. Keep in mind that Asriel and Chara are currently sharing Asriel's body. They both see and feel what's going on. It was also the plan. To get six more human souls to destroy the barrier and let monsters go free. Finally, Chara is being hurt and has the motivation and ability to fight back. All the pain they've suffered from humans, and the prospect of saving the entire monster race from bondage, makes them prepare to fight. Asriel is the one who stops them, though. Asriel didn't like the plan when they watched Chara die, and he doesn't want to hurt anyone else. So, Asriel just returns to the Underground and dies from his wounds. After Asgore declares war on humanity in his grief, Toriel takes Chara's body and buries it in the ruins, under a bed of flowers similar to the one in their village. Time passes. More humans fall Underground, and eventually die. Asgore collects their souls to prepare to destroy the barrier. Finally, Frisk falls in. Here's where i want to bring in the Narrator Chara theory. For those of you that don't know, the theory is that the flavor text of what happens in game (in second person, mind you) is spoken by Chara themself. It makes sense as they translate monster speech for you sometimes, and they actually lived Underground rather than try to escape like the other humans. They can't do much except offer little observations here and there. Frisk is their own person with their own personality and motives dictated by the player. So, Chara can only watch. So, why does the flavor text change in a Genocide run? Well, that's Chara, fueled by the player's desire to kill everything they encounter, being less empathetic as time passes. They keep being told, by the player's intent and Frisk's actions, that it really is a 'kill or be killed' world. Before, they hated humanity and loved monsters. Now they're being told that monsters must die, too. What other mindset can thus child have, getting all of this on their plate for so long? They believe it. Chara becomes the psychopathic killer because that's all they know by then. On the flipside, in a Pacifist run, Chara sees the other side of humanity. Up until their death they only saw humans as hateful and vile towards them, but with Frisk they see someone who actively avoids trying to hurt anyone. When given the chance to strike, Frisk chooses to spare every monster they find. Chara, having only known humans to hurt, finally sees a light for humanity. They follow Frisk, observing and learning the good humans can bring through Frisk's and the player's actions. In this route, Chara is put to rest, with Asriel watching over their grave. So ultimately, like with Frisk, Chara's nature is determined by the player. Naturally they are misanthropic, caring not for humans due to the constant pain they've endured in life. But they also had a family and happily lived in the Underground. They even sacrificed their life to try and free all the monsters, out of love for them. If the player deems all life to be meaningless, Chara will watch as monsters die, and then the rest of the world. You make a great partner in their chance to get revenge on humanity. But if the player decides that life is worth living and that everyone should get a chance, Chara will agree, change their view of humans, and happily go to rest. You, the player, control their fate. What will you choose?