#dany learns of cersei's betrayal

[ilynpilled]

Aerys & Cersei

I have seen some posts recently that want to paint Dany as the Aerys parallel in the story, as opposed to Cersei, and I want to pick that apart, and argue why it is detrimental to the respective stories of multiple characters, as well as pretty thematically incoherent.

Putting this quote by George in here as a given, as it will be relevant to the content in here:

"Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books."

Thematically, Dany becoming an Aerys parallel is awful because of the bio essentialist undertones it has. I’ll put a link to the post that goes more in depth into this at the end of this. This is going to be rather long.

People use this argument for the Dany parallel for some reason: later, wildfire in many ways also functions as the Targs’ attempt to recreate dragons (Aerys is the most glaring example). To recreate lost magic, lost power. There are many historical stories of this destroying some of them. When you have a family be the head of a violent construct, like feudalistic hierarchies, it should not shock anyone how power can get corrupted. That is how I always viewed wildfire: the corrupted version of fire. It is an attempt to recreate power. Dany already has dragonfire, she literally brought them back into the world, she already has “power”, and she is learning to wield it (dragons, like power, can be wielded in different ways: plus they are living beings, I think this is key when comparing them with wildfire and its symbolic implications) Cersei’s story foils this in so many ways. Fire already has a rich duality in this series: life vs death, emancipation vs corruption, light vs destruction etc. Now let me get into the role fire & light plays in Cersei’s story:

She is associated with fire and passion in the text. She has a hunger for many things, power, love, respect and so on. She seems to mirror wildfire (directly as per Jaime’s description: “She had been a pretty girl, in truth; dimpled and delicate, with long auburn hair. Timid, though. Prone to tongue-tied silences and fits of giggles, with none of Cersei's fire.” , “Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted. [….] her fury had been fearful to behold. She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience.”) She feels that that fire, that power, is absent in her life, leaving her in darkness and turning her ice cold.

By the time they left Maegor's Holdfast, the sky had turned a deep cobalt blue, though the stars still shone. All but one, Cersei thought. The bright star of the west has fallen, and the nights will be darker now. She paused upon the drawbridge that spanned the dry moat, gazing down at the spikes below. They would not dare lie to me about such a thing. "Who found him?"' "One of his guards," said Ser Osmund. "Lum. He felt a call of nature, and found his lordship in the privy." No, that cannot be. That is not the way a lion dies. The queen felt strangely calm. She remembered the first time she had lost a tooth, when she was just a little girl. It hadn't hurt, but the hole in her mouth felt so odd she could not stop touching it with her tongue. Now there is a hole in the world where Father stood, and holes want filling.

Tywin is both a symbol and a person that governs so much of Cersei and her relationship with the world. He owned her, a misogynistic traditionalist that sold her and moved her like a chess piece, with no regard to how it would affect her. He did not allow her individualization solely because of her gender. She even thinks he is in hell in her first AFfC chapter, likely for a multitude of reasons. Yet, Cersei aims to emulate his example. She seeks to fill the hole that he left. She wants to prove to him that she is worthy, even in his death. More so than his sons. His absence means darkness to her, because he and his conditioning is all that she knows. She thinks this is the key to recreating that absent fire. This also juxtaposes Jaime’s thoughts when he looks up the same stars. He associates Tywin with death and a feast for crows. He acknowledges that the sun has set, but he does not connect that light to Tywin, and he also thinks about the faint light of distant stars instead. They also come to drastically different conclusions about the worth of a crown. Cersei is repeatedly associated with death, and I do not think it is just about her own doom, but the feast for crows that she will bring about.

The queen could feel the heat of those green flames. The pyromancers said that only three things burned hotter than their sub-stance: dragonflame, the fires beneath the earth, and the summer sun. Some of the ladies gasped when the first flames appeared in the windows, licking up the outer walls like long green tongues. Others cheered, and made toasts. It is beautiful, she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms. No man had ever made her feel as good as she had felt when he took her nipple in his mouth to nurse. Tommen stared wide-eyed at the fires, as fascinated as he was frightened, until Margaery whispered something in his ear that made him laugh. Some of the knights began to make wagers on how long it would be before the tower collapsed. Lord Hallyne stood humming to himself and rocking on his heels. Cersei thought of all the King's Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.

Mind you this seed was already planted in ASoS:

Jaime curled up beneath his cloak, hoping to dream of Cersei. But when he closed his eyes, it was Aerys Targaryen he saw, pacing alone in his throne room.

Then, this is as clear cut of an Aerys parallel as it can get. People use Jaime’s description of Aerys and his relationship with fire, and try to project that onto Dany:

“Aerys would have bathed in it if he'd dared. The Targaryens were all mad for fire.”

The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I'll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him…. that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash. (Beyond obvious how well this fits with Cersei’s current and pending situation like lets be serious) :

I am Cersei of House Lannister, a lion of the Rock, the rightful queen of these Seven Kingdoms, trueborn daughter of Tywin Lannister. And hair grows back.

My crown, the queen thought. They took the other crown away from me, and now they are stealing this one as well.

I should not have done this. I was their queen, but now they've seen, they've seen, they've seen. I should never have let them see. Gowned and crowned, she was a queen. Naked, bloody, limping, she was only a woman, not so very different from their wives, more like their mothers than their pretty little maiden daughters. What have I done?

“He has sworn that he will not speak until all of His Grace's enemies are dead and evil has been driven from the realm.”

Yes, thought Cersei Lannister. Oh, yes.

People take the Targaryen aspect at face value, because they love to pick and choose at what times they want him to be an entirely reliable narrator. Again, Aerys never had dragons, he wanted to recreate them. It is not hard to actually navigate Jaime’s bias here as a result of his trauma, especially considering what Jaime himself thinks of Rhaegar (Rhaegar is not a Targ mad with fire in his mind but the ”good king that never was” lol) and the brutal death of his children at the hands of his family. (Aerys trauma affecting judgement regarding bloodlines was present when he almost pulled a #targrestoration for the trolling after they found him and asked him to name a king and he almost named a Targ as king and his father as hand bc it would make Robert #mad and thats funny until he got Aerys PTSD. He fears the ghost of Aerys returning more than anything else. It is a priority over his family’s interests, even back then). Again, the text is not actually bio essentialist, Jaime just has a very intense and dark relationship with Aerys and immense trauma that affects his logic. Not to mention, again, all that Aerys and some other Targs craved, Dany already achieved naturally. I just find it very funny how some of you people pick and choose when you want this man to be a reliable narrator depending on your agenda. Trust it is actually not that hard to figure it out when he is bullshitting in his thoughts or his words. Just look for contradictory actions or words, or whether his trauma and dissociative tendencies are relevant. Also why would you agree with the logic of “inherently evil and mad bloodline” said by the guy who is currently also convinced that he and his twin are one soul in two bodies who are tied together by fate?

Then, Jaime himself makes an actually reliable connection between Aerys and Cersei. No bloodline bullshit here. Cersei is literally his twin.

"That would be an even greater folly than burning the Tower of the Hand. So long as Tommen sits the Iron Throne, the realm sees him as the true king. Hide him under the Rock and he becomes just another claimant to the throne, no different than Stannis.”

"I am aware of that," the queen said sharply. "I said that I wanted to move the court to Lannisport, not that I would. Were you always this slow, or did losing a hand make you stupid?"

Jaime ignored that. "If these flames spread beyond the tower, you may end up burning down the castle whether you mean to or not. Wildfire is treacherous.'

"Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire. The Guild of Alchemists had been brewing fresh wildfire for a fortnight. "Let all of King's Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies."

"Now you sound like Aerys."

Her nostrils flared. “Guard your tongue, ser"

"I love you too, sweet sister."

How could I ever have loved that wretched creature? she wondered after he had gone. He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me. (Interesting that Jaime repeatedly associates Cersei with death directly, be it subconscious or conscious, and Cersei makes an accidental connection but not a deliberate one)

Other than the obvious fascination with wildfire, Cersei also aims to hurt him here with Kettleblack, because she is uncomfortable with losing her tool, and also because she is losing a source of warmth/love:

Cersei beckoned to Jaime. "Lord Commander, escort His Grace and his little queen to their pillows, if you would.

"As you command. And you as well?"

"No need." Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. “The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while.”

Jaime hesitated. “You should not stay alone.”

"I will not be alone. Ser Osmund can remain with me and keep me safe. Your Sworn Brother"

"If it please Your Grace,” said Kettleblack.

“It does.” Cersei slid her arm through his, and side by side they watched the fire rage.

We have access to Jaime’s thoughts:

Jaime knew the look in his sister's eyes. He had seen it before, most recently on the night of Tommen's wedding, when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said. The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him.

Jaime is aware and is bitter about that, but he hones in on a completely different thing. The bitterness over the cheating takes a backseat to him noticing the ghost of Aerys being present in Cersei. Then, this parallel keeps going. Right after Jaime makes a direct parallel between Aerys and Cersei, as well as associating her with death and corpses again, his thoughts drift to Aerys and his skewed relationship with wildfire & sex. Fire is passion, yes, sexual ardor, but again, wildfire is a corrupted version of fire.

whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me,” they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him." Jaime had only seen Rhaella once after that, the morning of the day she left for Dragonstone. The queen had been cloaked and hooded as she climbed inside the royal wheelhouse that would take her down Aegon's High Hill to the waiting ship, but he heard her maids whispering after she was gone. They said the queen looked as if some beast had savaged her, clawing at her thighs and chewing on her breasts. A crowned beast, Jaime knew.

"And this?" Cersei pinched the nipple now, pulling on it hard, twisting it between her fingers.The Myrish woman gave a gasp of pain.

"You're hurting me."

"It's just the wine. I had a flagon with my supper, and another with the widow Stokeworth. I had to drink to keep her calm." She twisted Taena's other nipple too, pulling until the other woman gasped. "I am the queen I mean to claim my rights.”

"Do what you will.” Taena's hair was as black as Robert's, even down between her legs, and when Cersei touched her there she found her hair all sopping wet, where Robert's had been coarse and dry.

"Please,” the Myrish woman said, "go on, my queen. Do as you will with me. I'm yours.” But it was no good. She could not feel it, whatever Robert felt on the nights he took her. There was no pleasure in it, not for her.

She gasped some words in a foreign tongue, then shuddered again and arched her back and screamed. She sounds as if she is being gored, the queen thought. For a moment she let herself imagine that her fingers were a bore's tusks, ripping the Myrish woman apart from groin to throat. It was still no good. It had never been any good with anyone but Jaime.

Cersei seeks to achieve catharsis. She is exploring her own trauma. She wants to derive catharsis from emulating power. From emulating violent men, emulating Robert. But she experiences no pleasure. She experiences no catharsis. This is not enough. This is not what she is looking for. All she has is the fire.

Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

This is what Cersei, like Aerys, will want to achieve in a metaphorical and in some ways literal sense. But with wildfire. It won’t work obviously, but it is all that she has.

Now lets talk about Cersei and swords.

Jaime, above most else, functioned as her sword. He was an extension of her, a weapon she desperately needed in order to punish others, and simultaneously protect herself. It was power. She immediately takes note of it when physical and internal change in Jaime is present:

"He'll have Casterly Rock, isn't that enough? Let Father sit the throne. All I want is you." He made to touch her cheek. Old habits die hard, and it was his right arm he lifted. Cersei recoiled from his stump.

"Don't ... don't talk like this. You're scaring me, Jaime. Don't be stupid. One wrong word and you'll cost us everything. What did they do to you?"

"They cut off my hand."

"No, it's more, you're changed." She backed off a step.

+

Jaime hugged her, his good hand pressing against the small of her back. He smelled of ash, but the morning sun was in his hair, giving it a golden glow. She wanted to draw his face to hers for a kiss. Later, she told herself, later he will come to me, for comfort.

"We are his heirs, Jaime," she whispered. "It will be up to us to finish his work. You must take Father's place as Hand. You see that now, surely. Tommen will need you.”

He pushed away from her and raised his arm, forcing his stump into her face.

"A Hand without a hand? A bad jape, sister. Don't ask me to rule.”

+

"Your turn," she told him afterward. "Pull his mane, I dare you." He never did. I should have had the sword, not him. (Interesting symbolism as to which one of them is opposed to the lions and which one is not)

+

If Jaime had not lost his hand. That road led nowhere, though. Jaime's sword hand was gone, and so was he

Jaime may yet come. She pictured him riding through the morning mists, his golden armor bright in the light of the rising sun.

It should be Jaime beside me. He would draw his golden sword and slash a path right through the mob, carving the eyes out of the head of every man who dared to look at her.

Ofc, who she used the weapon against were usually victims, but that is a big part of Cersei as a character, and the whole commentary about victims & perpetrators. You can have an irredeemable and evil character that the patriarchy still suppresses and affects the psychology of immensely, rendering her a bigger monster. The commentary on the destructive capacity of static social constructs is not lost as a result. A character can turn into the devil of the story due to a world that ceaselessly strips her of her humanity, as well as as a result of the choices she actively makes. Cersei has shown to be capable of cruelty even before her trauma (how she treated Tyrion, her extreme narcissism, throwing her best friend down a well), but this does not change anything. Being a perpetrator does not negate her victimhood, and vice versa. It is also her stubbornness and power hunger that leave her to her ruin in a world that does not allow her the ‘freedom’ or ‘power’ that she desperately desires. It becomes the worst combination of nature and nurturer. Her sword is gone for good. The motif of “sunlight” is once again present. It turns his hair/armor gold. She craves the golden Jaime in golden armor, the Jaime from AGoT. But we know Jaime’s color symbolism is heading in a very different direction:

Even at a distance, Ser Jaime Lannister was unmistakable. The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black.

She did as he bid her. "The white cloak . . ." ". . . is new, but I'm sure I'll soil it soon enough." “That wasn't . . . I was about to say that it becomes you”

When he was done, more than three-quarters of his page still remained to be filled between the gold lion on the crimson shield on top and the blank white shield at the bottom.

“Gold? Or silver?" Cersei plucked a hair from beneath his chin and held it up. It was grey. "All the color is draining out of you, brother. You've become a ghost of what you were, a pale crippled thing. And so bloodless, always in white." She flicked the hair away. "I prefer you garbed in crimson and gold."

(Again, gold is heavy negative symbolism for Jaime, another indication that Goldenhand the Just is an obvious dead end, as I have discussed at length atp. It is an attempt to recreate his phantom and cover it up with a golden lie.)

Then, finally, the conclusion for Cersei during her rebirth:

A shadow fell across them both, blotting out the sun. The queen felt cold steel slide beneath her, a pair of great armored arms lifting her off the ground lifting her up into the air as easily as she had lifted Joffrey when he was still a babe.

This is the reason the sun gets blotted out at the end. I think that is a final statement on how he will never be her sword again. So now she needs a new sword. She has Robert Strong, and she has wildfire. Light & sun is repeatedly absent, and she lands in the cold darkness over and over again. She has associations with ice and wildfire. Unlike Jaime, who is often reborn in light & warmth (1. first POV: “sent them toward the pale pink dawn. After so long in darkness, the world was so sweet that Jaime Lannister felt dizzy. I am alive, and drunk on sunlight.” In contrast with Cersei’s first POV: her awakening in her dark chamber after a dream turned nightmare. 2. when the arakh kills his old self: “sunlight ran silver along the edge of the arakh”, 3. the steaming bath. Robert Strong also contrasts Brienne. Interesting that he lifts Cersei up into the air, while Brienne catches Jaime before he could fall. Robert Strong is “cold steel”, while Brienne’s touch is “warm” (noted twice by Jaime). “The cell began to darken. It was growing cold as well. Cersei began to shiver. How can they leave me like this, without so much as a fire? I am their queen.” Cersei on the other hand keeps being put or reborn in darkness, I assume this symbolically has meaning and is no coincidence. Plus, while Jaime chooses to cut his own hair, Cersei is forcefully stripped from it. What is also interesting is what the both of them have in the dark (Jaime’s weirwood dream) are the flames (for Jaime the flaming sword, for Cersei the torch, and later the wildfire).

Again, people want Jaime to be an unreliable narrator here, clouded by bitterness and hatred or something, but I really doubt that is the case. Again, the cheating takes a backseat, and that whole thing is more complicated anyways: it is primarily a catalyst that reveals to him how broken the illusion he created for himself about the relationship is at its very foundation. The whole idea of her love, which is so significant for him, is questioned. There are so many factors that play into their relationship falling apart (they both change, the hand loss, Jaime’s rejection of being Tywin’s heir, his desire to give up power and choose Cersei, while Cersei would never give up power for Jaime, him not understanding the nuances of that as Cersei is inherently more powerless bc of her status and she craves it desperately + differences in nature and experiences. + Cersei asking him to kill Tyrion. Again, they are fundamentally different. This is also a partial reason as to why Jaime rejected her advances post sept scene imo, even if he keeps making inconsistent excuses (location, the dead KG or his father, vows, judgement of the gods [he never really cared about this before: he is a reddit atheist, also did not stop him at the sept]). Some of this is before the cheating reveal.) Jaime does not harm her even if she repeatedly hits him, emasculates him, insults him (he mentioned that he already turned her blows to kisses before) etc. but there is violent anger within him about the cheating. I think this is because that is the one thing that truly creates a major hole in his self-conjured narrative about the relationship (we are one soul in two bodies, destined lovers), as well as something that recontextualizes all the awful things he had actively done to sustain it. Other than all that, let me talk about Jaime and eyes:

Jaime watched her eyes. Pretty eyes, he thought, and calm. He knew how to read a man's eyes.

Bolton's silence was a hundred times more threatening than Vargo Hoat's slobbering malevolence. Pale as morning mist, his eyes concealed more than they told. Jaime misliked those eyes. : Roose Bolton's eyes were paler than stone, darker than milk

He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys's throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord's eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment.

The clasp that pinned it to her breast was wrought in the shape of a wolf's head with slitted opal eyes. The girl's long brown hair blew wild in the wind. She had a pretty face, he thought, but her eyes were sad and wary. (makes his inaction [link] all the more terrible, his conscience is screaming at him)

"Blue is a good color on you, my lady," Jaime observed. "It goes well with your eyes." She does have astonishing eyes.

The queen's eyes were green ice. "You had best go, ser."

He remembered how Rossart's eyes would shine (another Cersei parallel) when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed.

With his grim face and deep-sunk hollow eyes, Ser Ilyn might have passed for death himself . . . as he had, for years.

Though his pox-scarred face was grim and his eyes as cold as ice on a winter lake, Jaime sensed that he was glad he'd come.

Sorry, but I am gonna trust what Jaime sees in her eyes at Tommen’s Wedding. His judgement tends to be very accurate. Eyes are the windows to the soul after all.

Every idea that I have discussed at length here is also present in Jaime’s dreams.

Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself. Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him.

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. "What place is this?"

"Your place." The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who'd lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father's voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they'd made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair.

"Sister, why has Father brought us here?"

"Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness." Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.

"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."

“I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said.

It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt.

—- Brienne shows up naked. Jaime cuts her chains. Gifts her a sword. etc.

Brienne's sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more.

"The flames will burn so long as you live," he heard Cersei call. "When they die, so must you."

"Sister!" he shouted. "Stay with me. Stay!" There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps.

— Jaime and Brienne are left to face ghosts, lot of LN imagery and all that. Jaime’s sword’s fire goes out, Brienne’s still burns, he jerks awake before the ghosts rush him with his heart beating. Another moonlight motif happens after he wakes up on a “white stump” and he goes back for Brienne and saves her from the bear etc whatever no longer relevant to Cersei’s story imo

The Lannister legacy is associated with doom in Jaime’s subconscious. Cersei leaves with fire to join the Lannisters, specifically her son and father, and the imagery of death is so prevalent again.

This then mirrors Jaime’s other main dream, where his subconscious mind is communicating with him, right before he burns her letter. Again, overwhelming fire imagery. And it is fire that is destroying her. Like the letter, she is left to burn. First he mistakes his mother for Cersei, and then her leaving him parallels Cersei leaving in the fever dream. His mom, or his subconscious, also presents him with a key reality check:

One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. "In my dreams I always have two hands." He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump.

"We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them."

This is in direct conversation with his last dream (I assume it is deconstructing it. Idk, Jaime, it is almost like Goldenhand the Just is not a real possibility): “Last night he dreamed he'd found her fucking Moon Boy. He'd killed the fool and smashed his sister's teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia (we know what he thinks of Gregor, we know this is not good in his mind or ours, it is almost like his subconscious is telling him something). In his dreams Jaime always had two hands; one was made of gold, but it worked just like the other.”

"I am a knight," he told her, "and Cersei is a queen."

A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.

Both of their endeavors seem to be dead ends. Cersei is not gonna be the Queen that she always craved to be, despite having the title. Jaime is not and is not going to be the glorious knight, Goldenhand the Just, as he should conclude based on the Riverrun fiasco (this is also why I think Jaime’s very emphasized white/silver/grey replacing gold & crimson color symbolism is not about the KG, it is either something more abstract or it is about the Starks: “White is for the Starks. I’ll drink red like a good Lannister”, ntm how tied Arya is to JB through locations/brotherhood/stoneheart despite their desperate search for Sansa (pointless, she is at the Vale), and horses & wolves, the weirwood, the oath in general, and the fact that WW is half of Ice.) That is his attempt to recreate a fictive ideal that the boy he used to be dreamed of. That is not what true knighthood is about though. It was never about golden glory. These are golden lies. He knows too deep down. He has one hand. He has to look at the ugliness of the stump. It feels like Jaime realizes this, on a subconscious level certainly, and will pivot (especially after confronting what is essentially the embodiment of the worst product of the Lannister regime: a monster created by its sins, the cycle of violence itself, as well Jaime’s specific part in it: Stoneheart) at least I hope so, because that is how his arc would be functional, but Cersei remains steadfast. Also, Cersei remaining passive would feel like her character and the set up did not go anywhere. Whatever she will do with wildfire will be a grand act of agency, and her combatting the state she is in, it is gonna be a very corrupted and poetic act of destruction. She is essentially gonna set herself and the world on fire in order to battle the cold (her enemies, the people that hurt her, witnesses, and the innocents that are a victim to this whole cycle). That is what I would like to see. Jaime’s last AFfC chapter is also supposed to be a point of no return in some form. The idea of “opening the shutters”, winter, is so emphasized. The main reason certain retreading happens in ADwD that some people are obsessed with overanalyzing or misrepresenting (especially bc they need it desperately to justify “Jaime is drawn back to CR of all places to Cersei for no good reason other than he is a codependent addict” so they can get the wildfire + Cersei + KL out of the equation so Dany or whatever can be the Aerys parallel/mad evil kaboom boom person while there still being some lackluster follow through for all of Cersei’s set ups like valonqar etc) is because George’s editor told him to do some retreading with him since he took so long between books that the readers needed a reminder about where these characters were left:

so this entire passage had to be added in to cover these bases. When I read the Feast/Dance combined book it made me laugh how much this part was a “previously on Jaime Lannister.”

But again, he makes a clear choice, motivated by a concoction of things: he goes with Brienne, not back to his King, or back to Cersei. I think he is not ready to face Cersei yet and fears what he would do. I think so many dichotomies were being emphasized in this chapter: Tywin’s dogma, its results, the glory of pursuing the brotherhood, and how it all conflicts with Jaime’s arc in the subtext. I do not doubt he will land back there again, yes, George said they are effectively estranged, the romantic relationship is over, but that does not necessarily mean they will not meet again, nor that they will not hold any relevance in each other’s stories anymore. (Even if valonqar will not be literal, again, he has one hand, and he came to this conclusion in his dreams too in the end, and this fact very much comes in the way of the logistics of “the valonqar will wrap his hands”, if not only literally, certainly symbolically: even if it is the gold chain part two (was one not more than enough George???), I feel like Jaime would struggle with doing it with even that considering his hand situation.) Personally, I would prefer it if that part of the prophecy is subverted and it ends up not being an ex (or any other man for that matter) overpowering and murdering her. George had enough misses when it concerns some misogynistic writing in her storyline, it is 2023 now, so her death not being in anyway “gratifying” for misogynists (see aspects of the framing of Lysa’s death) would be my preference. I would love her death to be on her own terms. I made a parallel about her and Hedda Gabler before, and maybe something of that sort would be the best case scenario. She would rather take herself out in a blaze of glory than let the men (any valonqar, be it Tyrion, Jaime, Aegon etc) do it. That would be tragic as well as in some very dark way her reclaiming agency from fate itself. But honestly I doubt that is the direction George will go. Jaime will probably kill her, and it will be an incredibly grey act. Do not want that to be presented as straightforwardly heroic. I think it will be motivated by a lot of emotion and not just duty. Do not know how this entire situation will go down exactly. Also, really specific detail I noticed regarding prophecy wording, might not be deliberate:

“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

Sometimes he even wept, until he heard the Mummers laughing. Then he made his eyes go dry and his heart go dead, and prayed for his fever to burn away his tears. Now I know how Tyrion has felt, all those times they laughed at him.

Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …" Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away.

And then there was no stopping the tears. They burned down the queen's cheeks like acid.

To my knowledge, these three (+ Cat’s tears burning like vinegar) are the only characters with this specific phrasing present. Interesting anyway.

Also, I am wondering how much Cers will even trust Jaime atp. The sun is blotted out, that has to represent disillusionment, no? Ronnet Connington is also back at KL, we all know what Jaime did to that man when it concerned Brienne, and Cersei’s “he would never abandon me for such a creature. My letter must not have reached him” might entirely fall apart even more if he happens to tell her. Nonetheless, Widow’s Wail is still very much at the Red Keep, and that will have to land in Jaime’s hand(s). Also to further address the theory that the twins will be away from the wildfire and die together at CR since I mentioned it, I do not think the twins should go to The Rock. It is a place that Jaime repeatedly rejected, and Cersei is so closely tied to KL, the throne, and her kids are destined to die because of their crowns. Kevan wanted to return Cersei to The Rock, and what happened to him lol. “So long as Tommen sits the Iron Throne, the realm sees him as the true king. Hide him under the Rock and he becomes just another claimant to the throne, no different than Stannis.” “I am aware of that” the Queen said sharply.

I don’t know guys, doubt Cersei will want to hide under the Rock after what happened. Like you are telling me that Cersei, the one that reached into the lion’s cage, the human embodiment of wildfire, will passively accept all this? “That is not the way a lion dies.” So unless it is like a huge irony moment, which I would honestly like less, I do not think I see it or would like it happening. Also, Jaime is presented with the opportunity to die with Cers twice atp, once at the end of AFfC when the letter comes, and then at ADwD he is on his way back there. He ends up not taking it. In ASoS, when Brienne talks him out of passive suicide under the graceful crescent, he makes “Cersei needs me, I cannot die we need to die together”, “Tyrion who loves me for a lie needs me”, and “revenge against Hoat and co” his purpose to keep living. Notice how literally none of these things come to be. He does not even actively pursue the Hoat gang, revenge “lost its savor” once he sees the brutality that happened to Hoat, Tyrion no longer loves him for a lie and he believes he does not love him at all, and look at what is up with Cersei. “Her need is real enough”, + his bitterness about the cheating is still present in the chapter, and yet he does not end up pursuing any of that and chooses the oath to Cat (he abandons his position alone with Brienne, not exactly the safest thing). Like in his dream, he has his own flame right now, Cersei leaves with her torch and is no longer “the only light in the world” like it used to be as a result of their codependent relationship. The essentialist roots of that were completely deconstructed for both parties, Jaime especially (and it is touched upon again in ADwD w Hildy). So I don’t know why and how he would go to CR to Cersei atp tbh. Something will have to draw him to KL imo. Jaime’s dream is not about CR literally either, one it mirrors Brienne’s dreams and she pictures a different location (ntm they are together in Jaime’s whole dream thing anyway, what the fuck would Brienne be doing over there), two he repeatedly thinks and realizes how there is no such place beneath The Rock by the end. The original CR connection is more metaphorical than anything in my opinion. It is Tyrion that is tied to that place in a plethora of ways. It is his character that it is extremely relevant to. Whatever he will end up doing there will serve just as well with the idea of the destruction of Tywin’s legacy. I think the other two siblings will destroy Tywin’s legacy in different ways.

Finally, here is why it being Dany is thematically pretty dysfunctional imo: link

And even if, after all that, you guys still believe there to be another Aerys parallel in the narrative: This is already in the text. Is Cersei’s role just to foreshadow another woman’s path? You want this same narrative to happen again but with a teenage girl? I sure love that guys great message about women and power.

[ericanoelle]

What if Petyr married Sansa instead of sending her too Ramsey?

You mean a plot line that actually makes sense? LOL. This is going off the show and not the books.

I think he would secure Sansa in the Vale and keep her hidden and not travel South to see Cersei. They are safe in the Vale with an army. Everything in KL would stay the same pretty much. They would keep an eye on the North, which is not doing very well under the Ramsey reign (he would have killed Roose still). The Northern Lords would not want to bow to him, especially if he was not married to a Stark woman.

Petyr and Sansa would marry at the end of Season 5. Petyr would teach her how to play the game and it would be a slowburn. Petyr promises her that he would get her the North back via the Knights of the Vale if she married him. They have a wedding and this marriage is consummated (going by the concept that her marriage to Tyrion was not valid because it was not consummated).

They move North and gather support from the Northern Lords. They head towards Winterfell and the battle of the bastards happens but without Jon. Rickon dies in a very similar fashion as he does in the show (learn to zig zag dude). Sansa takes back Winterfell and is named Queen in the North, with Petyr as her King Consort.

Eventually, Jon makes his way to Winterfell when he learns that Sansa has taken it back. He tells her of the white walkers. Petyr needs more convincing because he does not believe in magic, nor has he planned for any of that. Arya also comes back after killing the Freys and is surprised to see Sansa and Petyr married. Sansa tells her that she married Petyr for his army and that he can be trusted. Bran also makes his way back but is concerned with the Night King that he doesn't bring up Petyr's betrayal of Ned and neither Sansa nor Arya have a need to ask, and Petyr has no need to try and turn sister against sister (because that plot makes zero sense).

Around the time that Dani makes her way North (Jon still seeks her out), Sansa is pregnant with her first child. She actually gives birth in the crypts during the Long Night. She gives birth to a boy who they name Torrhen Stark. Sansa insists that the heir to Winterfell have the Stark name and Petyr does not fight her on that.

The KL mess plays the same, only Bran is not named King. They legitimize Gendry and make him King instead. Gendry offers to marry Arya but she refuses, instead going off to live her life.

The North breaks away from the Seven Kingdoms and lives on its own for the rest of time., Sansa and Petyr's descendants reigning.

[duncan-rohanne]

Yes, I don't get the reasoning. The problem was intention/lost plot. We were ok with Dany destroying up KG, but there is a big difference with doing it intentionally and setting wildfire by accident, plus add F!Argon, all she goes through in WoW, the betrayals, and evil Tyrion whispering on her shoulder. It's meant to be a wake up call in the books before she abandons the throne and goes to fight the Others. Rhaenyra is objectively a bad person and a terrible ruler. Stop sugarcoating it.

okay i'm putting this all together, cause i don't want to spam y'all dashboards and there is one thing common and that is rhaenyra and whitewashing...

so,

i think there was misunderstanding with what i said, aka "the writers are scared to make the characters mean because of season 8 of got" - i stand by that. we all know season 8 was rushed to oblivion and what followed was total assassination of pretty much all characters involved. dany got it the worst, no question about it.

now what's happening here is that they are afraid to go that route, be it rhaenyra or alicent or rhaenys or all of them. the whitewashing is not concerning just rhaenyra. i love alicent, and i love this version of alicent, but you can't deny that in episode 9 she should've had more agency. she didn't know they will want to put aegon on the throne? come on now. rhaenyra is also whitewashed - laenor? vaemond? do i need to go on? rhaenys is almost there by giving her the chance to kill the greens (she can't it's against the canon) but she chickens out. i'm not even against it that she didn't do it, because it makes sense with the whole "we are both women in mans world" talk she had with alicent - that's not the point - it's about almost giving her chance to do something unsavory and then take it away.

dany, sansa, cersei, margaery, arya, catelyn, lysa, which ever of them is your favorite, they all had a chance to be pretty mean ass bitches when they wanted to be. for all the talk about alic*nt or lady misery or maegor with tits, none of the house of the dragon ladies had chance to be a c*nt. that's the joke. i like them all. they are all pretty likable.

i'm not saying that the writers are repeating season 8 mistakes, i'm saying they they have learned the wrong lessons and making new ones.

anyways, this is just my opinion, oh and the first anon, i don't know what i'm sugarcoating, i'm confused, sorry...

[ao3feed-briennejaime]

A Dance with Death

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/MoxSajT

by professional_dumbass

Sansa Stark runs north to Jon Snow, seeking the protection of the man she believes to be her brother. After having suffered through so many hardships, she begins to finally learn how to trust again, to let herself feel again. Confusing and no doubt shameful feelings begin to stir in her when she realizes, that Jon is not just a brother to her. Even more so when she finds out he is no brother of hers at all. Jealousy, death and betrayal come to the North, alongside the Dragon Queen. Will the two make it out alive? And if they do, will they do so together?

 Yes so basically its just what the summary says. I really love Jon and Sansa together and I think they had MUCH more chemistry than Jon and Dany, so yeah that's that. And I think Sansa would have found it hard to trust any other man except a selected few after Joffrey and Ramsay, so thats the other point.

Words: 4135, Chapters: 1/?, Language: English

Fandoms: Game of Thrones (TV), A Song of Ice and Fire - George R. R. Martin

Rating: Mature

Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence, Major Character Death

Characters: Sansa Stark, Jon Snow, Brienne of Tarth, Daenerys Targaryen, Tyrion Lannister, Jaime Lannister, Cersei Lannister, Arya Stark, Tormund Giantsbane

Relationships: Jon Snow/Sansa Stark, Gendry/Arya Stark, Jaime Lannister/Brienne of Tarth

Additional Tags: Sansa Stark-centric, Sansa Stark Deserves Better, Jealous Jon Snow, Jon Snow is a Targaryen, Jon Snow is Not Called Aegon, Aegon is a stupid name, Dany is the villain, obviously, Slow Burn, Extremely Slow Burn, you will die waiting, smut?, yes probably

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/MoxSajT

[carbonitekisses]

Last Chance for Honor

In which Jon breaks down after learning of his parentage, 

From a distance, dragonsong echoes eerily through the godswood trees. Jon quickens the pace and wills himself to ignore the call. He may not be a Stark but he holds no allegiance to the three-headed dragon.

Jaime arrives at Winterfell to fulfill an oath,

His horse nearly throws him off when it hears dragons screeching high above them. He uses his metal hand to try and calm his horse and grips the reins with his left. The horse is not the only one left skittish and wary; people fearfully scan the sky and seek shelter. Jaime himself tenses as he remembers the ambush in the Reach. Burn them all... She really is her father's daughter. Jaime strokes the horse’s flank to soothe him before urging him forward once more.

and Daenerys learns of Cersei’s betrayal. 

The king slayer stands in the middle of the Great Hall. He ports nondescript leathers and clothing, nary a roaring lion in sight. The only marking upon him is his golden hand—his sword was removed upon his arrival. He is vulnerable and defenseless, surrounded by both northerners and Unsullied preventing escape.

Also on AO3.

"She killed them. Daenerys killed my father and Dickon because they wouldn't bend the knee." 

"Don't say you're sorry. You didn't do it. You didn't know; I can tell that much."

"Why did you bend the knee to her?"

"And if we survive the Night King, what then?"

"Even if she ignores that the Baratheons won by right of conquest, the throne could never be hers by blood right."

"I mean that she's not the last Targaryen."

"I think you know, Jon. You're not simple. You never have been. Dragons don't let just anyone mount them."

"At the Citadel I—Gilly, really—found the High Septon's diary. And Bran confirmed it. Rhaegar and Lyanna married. And you, you're—"

"Listen, to me! Eddard Stark did it to protect you at your mother’s behest. If King Robert found out who you really were he would have killed you. Friendship with your father be damned."

"Jon, you're my brother. Snow, Targaryen, I don't care. But—"

"You can't just ignore this. Secrets like this will make themselves known."

"You believe that? That she won't care that you have a higher claim?"

"You know the Free Folk, you know the North. They'll never bend the knee to her. They might keep quiet while the dead march. But once this war is over I won't be surprised if a war between the living comes to pass."

"And if they don't bend the knee? Will she have them all executed like she did my father and brother?"

//

The memory of his father-turned-uncle is strongest here in the godswood. Jon remembers watching Ned Stark tend to Ice underneath the careful supervision of the heart tree’s weeping face.

The heart tree has never looked more heartless and cold.

Jon wishes he didn’t have a heart. His treacherous brothers should have done him the favor of cutting the pulsing muscle out of his chest. If Jon was a heartless man he would use Longclaw to tear and rip apart the bleeding face that’s watching him now. 

Instead, he unsheathes Longclaw and unleashes his anger and fear upon an ash tree. He lifts his arm back and hacks away at the tree’s trunk.

     Hit,

His father was never his father. 

     after hit,

He can't ever be a Stark. He isn't even a fucking Snow. 

    after hit, the tree takes it all without complaint.

He bedded his father's sister without knowing who she was, who he was, and–and–

Jon stops Longclaw mid swing and stares up at the cloud-filled sky. He opens his mouth to scream but instead chokes on unshed tears.

Winterfell’s bastard.

That is who he believed himself to be.

For the entirety of his life he had hoped his mother would still be alive. It did not matter if she was low or high born. And his fath–his uncle had promised to tell him. On the Kingsroad he had said—he had said—

Now, even his parting words, and where he said them, seem to mock him. 

“You are a Stark. You might not have my name but you have my blood. 

"The next time we see each other, we’ll talk about your mother. I promise.”

He drops Longclaw into the snow, uncaring of where it lands. Tired and drowning, Jon falls against the butchered tree, its mangled flesh scraping against his own. The ground lures his weight down down down until he's on his knees. 

For a second time, he mourns the loss of the man that raised him. The first was upon learning of his death. Now, upon learning he was never his father at all. He mourns the loss of a mother he will never meet. Not in this life and perhaps never in death. He mourns a father who will never compare to the man who raised him. A king who cast aside his wife, abandoned his children, and threw the seven kingdoms into the lion's den.

Sam was right; Jon knows that his lord fath–Lord Stark hid the truth to save him. He hid it under snow and in Winterfell’s crypt. Half-lies and omissions became a truth the world accepted because it was better than believing the honorable Lord Stark would lie—never minding the dishonor a bastard's existence brings. 

Jon wonders if his life was worth such trouble. 

He is the most honorable man I’ve ever known. He lied to the world, tainted his honor, and safeguarded the lie until his death to keep a promise of protection. Jon feels a sense of kinship and understanding with Eddard Stark. He might not be my father but in this we are alike.

The tree's scars run deep and jagged underneath his examining fingers. I'm a liar, too, like him. 

I compromised my honor to protect the North and all those who inhabit it. It is an uneven exchange, he knows. My honor is a paltry price to pay. 

Snow melts underneath his knees. He laughs. And laughs and laughs and cries. He's bent the knee to a tree of no consequence. He's bent the knee to a plant but never to her. He never did bend the knee to Daenerys Targaryen. Jon digs his hands through his hair and attempts to pull out the rotten memories that have taken root inside.

Wights on fire, Viserion falling. A hazy figure looming over him as he lies frozen-boned and immobile on a boat heading south. Tiny skulls littering the Dragon Pit. Hooded violet eyes following him. Dragons on a cabin door. 

Silver hair, panting breath, skin that tastes of smoke and—

Jon savagely shakes his head but the memory clings on and refuses to leave. Pleasure, the memory says, you found pleasure in your aunt. Don't deny it; you’re a Targaryen. He found pleasure in her arms and she found pleasure in his; her moans and scratching hands told him so. If he hadn’t heard of her barrenness he might’ve never done it; the possibility of bringing another bastard into the world a cruelty he refuses to commit.

Jon knew crossing the threshold into her room would bind him to her for however long she wished it. When he looked down at her, waves crashing against the hull of the ship, he saw storms of fire in her eyes—inconstant and mercurial. He saw a queen who made no efforts to rescue her allies. He saw a woman hungry for power and prophecy. He saw a conqueror ready to take flight for the Red Keep at any moment, threatening to kill thousands for a metal chair.

(Missandei had claimed her to be benevolent and just. She told him how the Dothraki and Unsullied followed Daenerys and chose her as their queen. He wondered at how such an intelligent woman didn't notice the hypocrisy in her words; Westeros never chose Daenerys and yet she waged an unnecessary war to claim a continent that had already suffered under Fire and Blood.)

And so he gave her what she wanted and desired. She wanted him to warm her bed and so he did; he fucked her and she fucked him. He believed his body would be an inconsequential thing to give; he never gave her promises of love or affection and she didn’t ask for them. Daenerys wanted him, and he needed her.  He needed her to never stray. He needed her to be truly committed to the Great War. He needed her to stay and fight, and not abandon the North like she did the Sands, Tyrells, and Greyjoys. 

He sealed the exchange with a kiss.

Jon had yielded to the idea of a future with her, if she wanted that of him. Affection, he thought, wasn't inconceivable. He would have stayed at her side for however long she desired it.  

I thought I could perhaps love her, in time. Jon rubs his face clear of frozen tears. But now? I can't continue this play. I've fallen into a trap of my own making and, he thinks of his family, possibly dragged them into it as well. The very people I've sworn to protec—

A raven caws and startles him. Jon looks above at the intruder. Its plumage is sleek and midnight black; it shows a keenness in the glint of its eyes. The black bird cocks its head to the side, and flies to perch itself on the heart tree's branches. Out of the thickness of the trees comes Ghost. He is as quiet as ever; white fur and red eyes a reflection of white bark and blood-red leaves.

"Ghost? What are you doing here, boy?"

His snout sniffs the snow around Jon, as if looking for something. Finally, he raises his head with Longclaw's grip in his jaw. The direwolf drops it before him, and urges him to take it. Once he does, Ghost walks in the direction of Winterfell only stopping when he sees that Jon isn't following him. Unsteadily, Jon braces himself against the ash tree and stands. His direwolf has never led him astray. There must be something happening in Winterfell.

The raven flies away to someplace Jon cannot see or follow. I'd almost believe it was waiting for me to leave. 

Jon sheathes Longclaw and casts one last glance towards the heart tree. Keep my secrets, tree. And guard my heart, too. The weeping face stares back. 

The ash tree weeps sap as well, but Jon pays it no mind. It has no face and therefore no mouth to betray him with.

Jon follows Ghost back to Winterfell.

As they get closer to the keep, Jon tries to cast off the dread that's climbed onto his back but finds it a futile task. Sam's whispered fear has lodged itself within his lungs and poisons him with each ebb and draw of breath:

"And if they don't bend the knee?”

He thinks of everyone who has opposed Daenerys so far. He thinks of little Lyanna Mormont. He thinks of Lord Manderly. 

He thinks of Sansa.

His cousin. His headstrong and willful...cousin; a woman he knows will never accept Daenerys as queen, especially after learning of the Tarlys; the lady of Winterfell who has held the North together during its most turbulent time; a Stark whose influence and importance Daenerys has taken notice of and mentioned to him more than once.

"Will she have them all executed like she did my father and brother?"

From a distance, dragonsong echoes eerily through the godswood trees. Jon quickens the pace and wills himself to ignore the call. He may not be a Stark but he holds no allegiance to the three-headed dragon.

Winterfell rises before him and he is Jon Snow once more.

//

Jaime’s horse nearly throws him off when it hears dragons screeching high above them. He uses his metal hand to try and calm his horse and grips the reins with his left. The horse is not the only one left skittish and wary; people fearfully scan the sky and seek shelter. Jaime himself tenses as he remembers the ambush in the Reach. Burn them all... She really is her father's daughter. Jaime strokes the horse’s flank to soothe him before urging him forward once more.

Bronn, the self-serving ass, decided to stay in Wintertown's shabby imitation of a brothel. "I'm not about to ride in with the Lannister that killed the dragon queen's father—I've seen her burn others for far less.” A dark look passed quickly before he said, “Call me a coward if you want, I don't care. Come and get me if they let you live, ey?"

And so it is that Jaime Lannister, the Kingslayer, rides into Winterfell alone and with no fanfare—a pitiful, though well-deserved, contrast to the last time he came. Back when he was despised for being a Kingslayer, not a Lannister. 

Perhaps Bronn had the right of it, he thinks as he’s almost immediately apprehended upon passing through the gate, even I wouldn’t ride into Winterfell with Jaime Lannister if I could help it.  

Faces with hollowed out cheeks sneer and yell out. Lannister, they curse and hiss, Kingslayer!

For these people there is no distinction between the two. Both are markers of depravity and cruelty. He refuses to lower his head in shame as he is escorted to gods-know-where. He cares not for their opinion. Judgement and a chance for honor lies elsewhere—and he is ready to face it.

//

The king slayer stands in the middle of the Great Hall. He ports nondescript leathers and clothing, nary a roaring lion in sight. The only marking upon him is his golden hand—his sword was removed upon his arrival. He is naked and defenseless, surrounded by both northerners and Unsullied preventing escape.

Daenerys presides over the hearing at the center of the head table, flanked by Jon, and Sansa Stark. Her council is present as are Bran Stark, Ser Davos, Lyanna Mormont, a northern lady, a lord from the Vale, and a lady knight. She and the north hold little love for the maimed lion. Let's see how well this lion fares.

“I see you are alone, Jaime Lannister,” she says his surname with veiled contempt. “When should we expect your sister’s armies to arrive?”

"There are no armies. There never was. I'm the only Lannister soldier you will see north of the Neck."

Daenerys remembers seeing Jamie Lannister for the first time.

This man, she had thought, this man took everything away from me when he killed my father. 

Daenerys had looked at the murderer before her and had seen him for what he was. He wasn't the extraordinary creature that prowled her nightmares when she was a little girl. His skin bore no markings of wickedness. The hair atop his head was golden and soaked in sunlight. His armor was well-crafted but held no magical qualities. He was lacking a hand of flesh but that was the extent of his uniqueness. He was an ordinary mortal man. She was almost disappointed by him.

Jamie Lannister would have fared better under disappointment.

Today, Daenerys seeks justice and retribution.

"'I will march them north to fight alongside you in the Great War': is that not what she said?" she looks to Tyrion. "Your sister pledged her forces to fight alongside us in the war against the dead." Her eyes flick away from her Hand; he resolutely refuses to look at her, preferring to stare stupidly at his brother. "I withdrew mine and marched them north because she promised to do the same."

She should have never trusted a Lannister. 

Lannisters are not lions, they are snakes hiding amongst the grass waiting to strike and sink their fangs. While Daenerys is here in this white wasteland, Cersei Lannister is reclaiming every last inch of land she had lost. All the sacrifices she has made turn to ash in her mouth at the thought of Cersei sitting calmly on the Iron Throne. I should have razed the Red Keep to the ground as soon as I landed on Westeros. Daenerys recalls how affectionately Tyrion spoke of his older brother. There was love there. Perhaps Tyrion never stopped working for the usurpers. Why should I believe there is wildfire underneath Kings Landing? He could very well be lying in order to save his family. Olenna Tyrel had the right of it. She was no rose, or lion, or wolf. She is Daenerys, mother of dragons, the last Targaryen in the world. The throne is my birthright. I've forgotten my house words: Fire and Blood. I would be queen of the seven kingdoms by now if I hadn't forgotten them.

She opens her mouth to order the Unsullied to apprehend him but Sansa Stark speaks to the right of her. "Why have you come north, Ser Jaime?"

"I'm no longer a ser, lady Sansa."

"The question still stands," Sansa Stark leans forward, "If your sister has failed to fulfill her pledge, why have you come north?"

"My sister does not control me. I cannot ignore what I saw at the Dragon Pit. And as somebody told me," here, a small smile, "This goes beyond houses. I have come to pledge myself to—"

Daenerys scoffs, "You murdered a king, my father, who you were honor-bound to protect. You have just confessed that your sister, Cersei Lannister, has broken her own oath to me. Why should I believe you? For all I know, she could have sent you to kill me. It's an efficient and tested strategy, using one Lannister man to kill a Targaryen monarch."

"Out of all the dishonorable things I have done, killing—"

Tyrion tries to silence his brother, "Jamie—" 

"Killing your father is one I do not regret." Daenerys wishes she had Drogon here to burn away the defiance in the set of his brows. Strangely, his eyes deviate from hers and land somewhere to the right of the head table. "There are others I deserve to be punished for. But I will not apologize for plunging my sword into the mad king. If I hadn't he would have leveled King's Landing with wildfire. I'll never apologize for it."

How dare he speak about my father's murder in such a callous manner? She's aware her father was not a gentle man but she is tired of being reminded of it time and time again. It is not a statement he makes but an accusation against her. She is not her father. "You should watch your tongue, Kingslayer, lest you find yourself at my dragon's mercy."

"I've witnessed your dragon's 'mercy' in the Reach. Forgive me if I'd rather face the butcher's block. "

The lord from the Vale shares a look with the Mormont girl sitting next to him. He clears his throat and asks, "Speak clearly, Lannister. What happened in the Reach?"

Tyrion finally turns to look at her and Daenerys hates him for it. She will not be shamed for standing her ground that day. It is within her right as queen to execute any and all traitors. They are all hypocrites, these Westerosi. They execute with ropes and swords. She does it with dragonfire. In the end the result is the same, one less soul in the realm of the living.

The Kingslayer glares at Tyrion before whipping around to address the table where the northern council sits. "You don't know?" His question is met with silence. "She burnt a thousand wagons—most of which contained the last harvest." He takes a step forward, " She burnt—"

Sansa Stark interrupts him and tartly asks Ser Davos how many animals her dragons have been fed since they arrived.

Daenerys knows what she is trying to do and she will not stand for it. Sansa Stark might be lady of Winterfell, but Daenerys is her queen. She snaps to the right and wets her lips, "The Targaryen forces brought their own wagons of food, Lady Sansa, in case you’ve forgotten."

"I have not, your grace. Three hundred wagons is an easy quantity to remember—and fewer than a thousand. You brought some wagons of grain but little if any livestock which is what your dragons feed on." The red-haired Stark continues facing forward, not turning to look at her. "I ask again, Ser Davos: how many animals have the dragons devoured since landing in the north?"

The Onion Knight gives Daenerys an apologetic glance before answering, "Near seventy, my lady."

She continues her questioning, asking if they have all come from the Targaryen stock. Ser Davos replies in the negative, and Daenerys turns to Jon, incensed at his sister's attempt to undermine her. She had told him to keep his sister in line. He looks just as angry as her when his eyes meet hers before softening. Daenerys is glad at least someone sees how unnecessary this conversation is. Her dragons can eat whatever they want; without them the north will fall. 

"Lady Sansa," Jaime Lannister says her name with urgency and takes a step towards the head table; Daenerys appreciates how Jon reflexively places his hand on Longclaw to protect her. "Burnt bushels should be the least of your worries. The woman sitting next to you burnt my men alive after they defeated the Tyrell army in Highgarden. Her and the Dothraki ambushed us as we were transporting the harvest back to the capital. The woman you have all proclaimed queen burnt Randyl Tarly and Dickon Tarly alive after they refused to bend the knee. Just like Aerys Targaryen did to your grandfather and uncle, she murdered a father and son."

Silence reigns in the Great Hall. She hears Jon's leather gloves tighten around his chair's armrests. 

"I am not my father." She will defend herself if no one else will. "I let them choose. And they chose to die."

She hates Jaime Lannister and rues the day she offered Tyrion Lannister the golden pin that rests upon his doublet. Who is this oathbreaker to condemn her for handing out justice in her own kingdom? "It is within my right as queen to execute traitors. I now offer you the same choice, Kingslayer. Bend the knee to me or refuse and die."

"His life is not yours to take, Daenerys Targaryen," a whisper denies her from the right of Sansa Stark. "His life is not yet forfeit."

Bran Stark unnerves her. He knew about her brother and how he died. He knew about Viserion. The youngest Stark speaks truths and secrets as easily as others drink wine. If it were any other to interrupt her...Daenerys notices even Sansa Stark seems surprised by her brother's claim.

"Jaime Lannister pushed me out of the broken tower. He is the one that crippled me. His life belongs to House Stark."

The monster in front of her hangs his head in shame. The hall erupts with noise. Daenerys hears Jon speak for the first time, "You fucking—"

The crippled boy raises his voice, "It doesn't matter; we don't have time for this." The Great Hall falls into a tense silence ready to break at any moment. "Jaime Lannister, step forward and join oathkeeper. Fulfill the oath you swore—" he pauses, and beckons the lady knight. She stands with both her sword and the Kingslayer's "—here is your last chance for honor." 

The Kingslayer is taken aback by Bran Stark's words. Here is your last chance for honor? What does he intend to do? Nonetheless, after taking his sword from the lady knight, he bends the knee in front of the head table and lays the sword on the floor. It is only right, she thinks, after what he did to her father. There is a sense of vindication, having the Kingslayer at her feet.

"I offer you my services, Lady Stark." Daenerys' jaw tightens. "I will shield your back and keep your counsel and give my life for yours if need be. I swear it by the old gods and the new."

Sansa Stark confidently stands, her voice cloyingly innocent, "And I vow that you shall always have a place by my hearth and meat and mead at my table. And I pledge to ask no service of you that might bring you dishonor." Jaime Lannister lifts his head and looks at Sansa as if she were his salvation. Daenerys tastes blood. "I swear it by the old gods and the new. Arise."

The traitor and murderer rises, now cloaked under the protection of House Stark—no, of Sansa Stark. 

Daenerys has been robbed of justice. She has been denied retribution.

Yes, Olenna Tyrell was right. She is a dragon and she is tired of listening to clever men with clever plans that never work in her favor. 

I will take what is mine with Fire and Blood.

[starksinthenorth]

Musings on ASOIAF Ladies and Ambition

I’ve noticed people use “ambition” to describe Sansa and Daenerys as if it’s a bad word or an insult (often called “power hungry”). Yet in the text of the series, neither of them are shown to be ambitious people as a core characteristic. I blame the series for a lot of this, because it failed to explore the internal dialogue of Sansa, Arya, and even Cersei, who ends up more humanized than either of them by the end (because of the maybe baby).

Cersei Lannister is the classic ambitious ASOIAF lady, whose point-of-view is introduced in perhaps the most iconic sentence of any introductory chapter:

She dreamt she sat the Iron Throne, high above them all.

I can’t think of a sentence in ASOIAF that better introduces the internal thoughts and view of its leading character.

In comparison, Sansa’s first sentence is receiving news about her father’s whereabouts, Daenerys is shown her new dress to meet Drogo, and Arya has crooked stitches again. Arya’s works to frame her relationship with Sansa and her internal struggle to fit the feminine Westerosi mold, while Sansa and Daenerys are setting up plot points. None of these interactions signal ambition, bad or good. Daenerys did not arrange her wedding, Sansa is just told the information by her Septa, and while Arya is aspiring to have straight stitches, that’s hardly an ambitious goal for a girl of nine.

Fans rarely, if ever, deny Cersei’s cruel, cold, often stupid ambition. In fact, it’s one of the reason people seem to love her. She’s internally open about what she wants - power - and when she wants it - now:

All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.

- AFFC, Cersei III

The rule was hers; Cersei did not mean to give it up until Tommen came of age. I waited, so can he. I waited half my life. She had played the dutiful daughter, the blushing bride, the pliant wife. She had suffered . . . She had contended with Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, and her vile, treacherous, murderous dwarf brother, all the while promising herself that one day it would be her turn. If Margaery Tyrell thinks to cheat me of my hour in the sun, she had bloody well think again.

- AFFC, Cersei V

Cersei is the definition of a power hungry lady, scheming and cheating at every point. Yes, Sansa learned from her, but most of Sansa’s internalized lessons of Cersei’s were to do the exact opposite. 

"The night's first traitors," the queen [Cersei] said, "but not the last, I fear. . . . Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. . . . The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.

- ACOK, Sansa VI

Cersei isn’t the only POV character who views herself outside of conventional Westerosi standards and aspires to something beyond being a wife and mother. Arya Stark has ambition writ clear on the page, though it is not so cold or denying other people their rights or chances. Compared to Cersei, Arya doesn’t want everything, crown and throne and kingdom and all. She just wants something, and even that is denied to highborn women in Westeros. Even when she asks her father about her future, a man who wants to do right by his children and loves them, Eddard Stark is blinded by Westerosi patriarchy:

Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?"

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."

- AGOT, Eddard V

With Arya in this, I see some parallels to Elaena Targaryen, who was so good at math and management she served as the secret Master of Coin while her husband carried the title. Elaena was “more willful than Rhaena, but not as beautiful as either of her sisters,” yet is also said to have been “more beautiful at age seventy than at age seventeen,” growing into herself like Arya is expected to. They both even cut their hair, Arya to hide her gender and Elaena to hide her beauty, both instances to gain freedom from captivity in the Red Keep.

Despite both these examples of ambition - Cersei’s all-encompassing, without care for how it affects the realm, and Arya’s attempt to find a place in the world outside the Westerosi model - it still becomes an insult when people speak of Daenerys and Sansa.

Critics claim Sansa is ambitious, and negatively so, because she “wants to be queen.” But this criticism misses a vital point of Sansa’s character. Unlike Cersei, she does not want to be queen because of the power and political influence, but because she will be living a song. In the start, Sansa’s got her head in the clouds, not to the dirty world of politics. Her very first chapter lays out this motivation incredibly clearly:

All she wanted was for things to be nice and pretty, the way they were in the songs.

When she thinks of Joffrey and being in love with him, it’s because he’s “handsome and gallant as any prince in the songs” (AGOT, Sansa II), 

Alternatively, it has been said that Sansa is ambitious because of her claim to Winterfell. But compare how Sansa thinks of her claim to how Big Walder Frey does. Despite being far down the inheritance line, he is certain he will someday possess the Twins. He’s likely willing to kill his family to become Lord of the Crossing, and already has killed Little Walder.

In comparison, Sansa isn’t the one who realizes her claim as heir to Winterfell, even after her two younger brothers are believed dead. It’s Dontos who mentions it, and after she still thinks that Robb will have sons to inherit.

But she had not forgotten his words, either. The heir to Winterfell, she would think as she lay abed at night. It's your claim they mean to wed. Sansa had grown up with three brothers. She never thought to have a claim, but with Bran and Rickon dead . . . It doesn't matter, there's still Robb, he's a man grown now, and soon he'll wed and have a son. Anyway, Willas Tyrell will have Highgarden, what would he want with Winterfell?

- ASOS, Sansa II

Sansa’s not ready to kill Bran and Rickon if they show up. Her arc is about taking off the rose-tinted glasses and seeing reality, but also working to make reality like a song. For example, her idea of the Tournament of the Winged Knights for Sweetrobin. It’s a song come to life, all by her making. TBD how the ending goes, of course, but it shows that trajectory.

And finally, Daenerys.

Daenerys is not driven by some lifelong desire to win and dominate. She’s forced into it, a la Brienne’s “no chance and no choice.” If Daenerys were raised in a stable environment, I have a feeling she’d be much more like Sansa: dreamy, hopeful, sweet and studious. Happy.

But instead, her eyes are open.

When she’s introduced as a character, she shows an awareness for the schemes and politics of the world. She knows her brother is called the Beggar King in the Free Cities, and is doubtful of the smallfolk’s secret toasts to Viserys III that Illyrio Mopatis claims happen across Westeros.

Like Sansa and Cersei, there’s evidence of her goals, hopes, and wishes in the very first chapter:

"I don't want to be his queen," she heard herself say in a small, thin voice. "Please, please, Viserys, I don't want to, I want to go home."

. . .

Dany had only meant their rooms in Illyrio's estate, no true home surely, though all they had, but her brother did not want to hear that. There was no home there for him. Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.

Daenerys remembers home as the house with the red door in Braavos. It’s her brother whose only home and stability was the Red Keep, not her.

Throughout her journey of power to take back the Seven Kingdoms, she is doubtful at every turn and most of her wishes are for happiness, for peace, for stability.

Dany had no wish to reduce King's Landing to a blackened ruin full of unquiet ghosts. She had supped enough on tears. I want to make my kingdom beautiful, to fill it with fat men and pretty maids and laughing children. I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father.

- ACOK, Daenerys II

A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros?

- ADWD, Daenerys II

Even later, Daenerys is determined to bring peace to the lands she currently rules. She does plan to return to the Seven Kingdoms, but it’s not driven by pure ambition. And this is, notably, from a conversation when Prince Quentyn Nymeros Martell asks her to come back and claim them now, saying she has allies for that conquest. And still she turns him down, with promises that it will only happen eventually:

"Daenerys said. ". . . .One day I shall return to Westeros to claim my father's throne, and look to Dorne for help. But on this day the Yunkai'i have my city ringed in steel. I may die before I see my Seven Kingdoms. Hizdahr may die. Westeros may be swallowed by the waves."

- ADWD, Daenerys VII

And yet in both Sansa and Daenerys, these visions and hopes for the futures they might have are considered unbridled ambition, although they turn more on happiness and peace for themselves and their people, rather than the type of ambition Cersei has, which is clearly her own power and being heralded above everyone.

Daenerys’ thoughts in her sixth chapter of ADWD have the same energy as Sansa’s “I will make them love me.”:

"A queen must know the sufferings of her people."

. . .

A queen must listen to her people, Dany reminded herself. 

Daenerys has figured out how to make her people love her, by wearing her “floppy ears” and appealing to the masses, listening to them, et cetera. She’s also a bit ahead of Sansa in the realm of ruling, to be sure.

But how are these similar thoughts ambition in either of them? It’s an attempt to empathize and connect, not to throw away and disregard and rule by force and domination. Both these ladies are more nuanced, and the fandom does them a disservice by painting them as ambitious or power-hungry when at the end for both of them, it’s a desire to have a happy, stable, loving life.

[aboveallarescuer]

While it’s great that the fandom makes comparisons between the Ned/Cersei and Cat/Jaime confrontations, I wish that the Dany/MMD confrontation was also included in this conversation. I do think that there are some intentional similarities between them (even if not as overt as the ones between N/C and C/J), which can be pointed out while still acknowledging that MMD is a more sympathetic character than the Lannisters in this comparison.

Dany and Ned both tried to help MMD and Cersei to no avail, partly because they remained loyal to the men (Drogo and Robert) responsible for these women’s sufferings*; both of their interactions address these issues. Dany, Ned and Cat all confront the people who murdered/attempted to murder their children. MMD confesses that she killed Rhaego, while Cersei and Jaime confess that they were involved in the attempt on Bran’s life. Dany, Ned and Cat all decide what to do with the people who killed/attempted to kill their children based on other children - Ned asks Cersei to leave King’s Landing because he’s worried about her children’s safety once he tells Robert their true parentage; Cat frees Jaime to exchange him for her remaining children; Dany burns MMD to birth her dragon children**. Dany’s and Cat’s*** interactions are related to key deaths in the book series - Cat releasing Jaime indirectly led to the Red Wedding because Tywin no longer had to be concerned about Jaime being killed in retaliation after the massacre was carried out; Dany’s exchange with MMD leads to Dany’s realization that Drogo won’t ever be the same as he once was (1, 2) and to her decision to mercy-kill him. All these deaths are crucial to the protagonists’ developments. Catelyn and Robb (along with Ned) had to die so that the Starklings could develop, grow and become the heroes that we need for the war against the Others; Dany’s losses during AGOT serve the same function - Viserys had to die so that Dany could become the claimant to the Iron Throne, Drogo had to die so that Dany could become Aegon the Conqueror with teats and Rhaego (along with Rhaegar’s son) had to die so that Dany could become AA/PTWP/SWMTW.

IMO, it especially makes sense to compare these three interactions because I tend to believe that Ned, Catelyn and Dany, the three major parents of AGOT, are also the main POVs of the book. Ned and Cat took the spotlight away from their children for a while because they were deliberately set up as Decoy Protagonists. That doesn’t happen with Dany because her parents and older brother/main role model were already dead before the book series began. It makes sense, then, that she is the only one who starts AGOT as an equal to Ned and Cat in terms of importance; in spite of her age, she’s already a wife and a mother. But unlike Ned and Cat, she also gets to be one of the protagonists of ASOIAF as a whole. This emphasizes how Dany has a special place in the narrative; by the end of AGOT, she’s the only protagonist who’s already both mother and queen in her own right (and who already subverts the Good Princess, Evil Queen dichotomy) despite also being a young girl, so she gets to be the main representative of her house in a way that none of the individual Starklings can.

*There are some key differences here, though: Dany had much less agency than Ned because she was a 14-year-old slave without any other option but to stay by Drogo’s side as long as he lived. Meanwhile, 36-year-old Ned was Lord of Winterfell and the Hand’s King. He had more power and agency to denounce Robert’s regime, but still chose to remain loyal to him even after Robert refused to punish Rhaenys’s and Aegon’s murderers, even after he found out that Cersei was a victim of domestic violence perpetrated by Robert, even after he found out that Robert slept with a girl “so young Ned had not dared to ask her age”, etc. Those things don’t make Ned a bad person, but they show that he’s a product of his time and place, something that antis don’t acknowledge in Dany’s case. And Dany learned her lesson with what happened to MMD: she freed all her slaves at the end of AGOT and would later start a revolution to abolish slavery once she was no longer under Drogo's control.

**To be sure, Dany’s decision is morally grey, but 1) any noble would execute their child’s murderer (Catelyn herself thinks she would have killed Jaime if it wasn't for Sansa and Arya), 2) child murder is framed in this series as a heinous crime (which we see with Jaime and Bran, Sandor and Mycah, Oberyn asking for justice for Elia’s children, Theon and the miller’s boys, Stannis's dilemma regarding Edric Storm, Dany’s dilemma regarding the child hostages, etc) and 3) if Dany hadn’t hatched her dragon eggs, she wouldn’t have gained the respect of Drogo’s remaining khalasar and would have been more vulnerable in case someone had attempted to drag her to live in Vaes Dothrak among the dosh khaleen.

***I didn’t include Ned and Cersei’s interaction here because it didn’t lead to any demise. Cersei was already plotting to kill Robert and grab the throne for Joffrey and Littlefinger’s betrayal of Ned had nothing to do with it.

[esther-dot]

Jamie and Cersei's relationship was more romantic and convincing than Jon and Dany. It was not just bad writing, or bad chemistry. It was on purpose.

I agree. I have many, many gripes about D&D, but I don’t think they thought, “Hey! You know what’s sexy? Bran interrupting sex. Let’s include Bran in boatsex somehow!” Why do D&D hate Isaac? What did he do to deserve that??? 😭

In s8 D&D gave us romantic Gendrya in a few scenes and made it believable. We had flirting, sex, and a proposal, and the same showrunners couldn’t figure out how to convey human emotions between J/D aka “the point” of the series across two entire seasons? Please. They even included the impetus for Jaime to follow Brienne/have sex in s8 when they were cutting away from important things all the time, and yet, they neglected to do that for J/D. Inexplicable.

It would have been so easy to write J/D in a better way. Turn a heated argument into sex to communicate this is a passionate, against their better judgment affair. If they had presented it as lust/desperation to live because the world is ending, it would have made some sense. Instead of doing that, they made it progress in a way that would indicate we’re meant to see this as a “real” relationship, not just sex. The problem is, if you want that, you have to give the couple soft moments/bonding scenes. And yet, every J/D conversation revolved around power or the survival of humanity. Dany being upset she can’t have kids felt the closest to that, but it doesn’t work because she’s romanticizing dragons that we’ve just learned are a threat to people. All of their scenes had violence as an underlying theme, and if they had just not done that once, just given us one moment in which Jon is emotionally vulnerable, I’d believe they were trying to write a real romance. Give them a scene where Jon could have admitted that he did die (because he lied about that before) to show that he trusts her, and have Dany take his hand and tell him she was meant to die too, but she walked from the fire alive. That they live for a purpose. I mean, give them anything to show why they would be drawn to each other, why Jon might get sucked in. But nope, it all revolved around Jon giving Dany what she wanted (the North), hope for the future (a child), all because he thought everyone would die unless he got her to fight the Others with them. 

If D&D had written it with any plausibility (even with zero chemistry between the actors), I could believe their intention was for us to believe they were in mutual love, but the problem is, everything works against that understanding, except for their marketing. I still don’t even think they were writing a genuine romance in s8. They could have written a toxic relationship that was addicting to both of them, instead, Jon spends s8 resisting Dany instead of being drawn to her in spite of himself. It was the strangest thing! With Jon, it’s like they had two stories that weren’t compatible, and yet they told them both anyway. It might be a random thing to obsess over, but I was so annoyed when I read the finale script and saw how they emphasized that the FF respected/trusted Jon, as if to contrast that with the North’s view of him when he returned in 8x01. I hated that so much because the FF would have had the same issue that the Northerners did if he had knelt unnecessarily. They would have thought he was a traitor. And, as far as Tormund knows, Jon remained loyal to the North and did what Mance wouldn’t to save his people so of course he would still respect Jon. Of course the FF would still admire him. So, if that’s the idea, if he is still worthy of that, D&D should have let Jon admit to Sansa that he was afraid of what Dany was capable of. That he knelt for the North, and that Sansa needed to trust him to handle Dany the way she handled LF. Then, Sansa telling about his parentage could feel like a betrayal of his trust, because he hadn’t ignored her fears. But nope! They created all these parallels between Mance and Jon, Stannis and Dany, Sansa and Jon, LF and Dany, etc etc, and instead of dealing with the implications of what they wrote, they ignored it.

Anyway, you’re right about Jaime and Cersei! Their scenes/relationship was compelling the whole way through, and they had those quiet soft moments as well as those angry/lusty moments, so it isn’t like D&D don’t know how to deliver on a range of dynamics even within the same relationship. I’ve wondered if D&D were trying to make a contrast between Jaime/Cersei and J/D because Jaime leaves his sister (evil Queen) and gets sexually entangled with a good person (Brienne), and Jon leaves his sister and gets entangled with Dany (evil Queen). Jaime tries to rescue Cersei, Jon kills Dany. There is so much in s7-8 that is this close meaning something, all you have to do is nudge it a little. And for some reason, D&D didn’t. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[low-budget-korra]

Hi. Quick trigger warning. This post contains a commentary on consent in The L Word. May not be suitable for some. I apologise in advance.

I like your takes on TLW. I wanted to share something about Bette that's been bothering me. What is it with her and blurring the line of consent?

I don't know of you recall the OG show. The last episode of the first season was legendary for that scene with Tina after Tina found out about the cheating. Tina said 'no' and 'stop' over and over. If you remember, Bette had to tear up her top in order to get her out of it because Tina was not co-operating.

There was also that scene with Jodi, when she shoved her onto bed, kissed her, then Bette put her hand into her own pants and thought about Tina.

And finally we had the 27- second scene with Gigi, very reminiscent of the scene with Jodi. Only this time, she didn't kiss Gigi back, forcibly turned her around and shoved her into the table. Touched Gigi for a second to give a false sense of security, then again, shoved both of their hands into her own pants.

I may be overreacting, but I don't see anything cute or endearing about Bette. She doesn't love women, she's fascinated by them and wants to possess them. Tina figured it out and ran to the hills. Jodi had to learn it the hard way. I want Gigi to get away from her and start something healthy with Dani.

I, again, apologise if I've bothered anyone. I know it's a sensitive subject. 🙏

I remember that terrible scene on S1 finale. It was similar to one scene that happened in game of thrones with Jamie and Cersei when they mistake rape for rough sex.

I think it was the writers fault because to this day not everyone knows or want to write sex scenes with a loud consent because they or don't know how or they think ain't sexy and ruin the mood.

But i have other interpretation on that scene, since I'm re-watching the show. I think even though its started as a violence, Tina pulls a uno reverse and from a certain point she dominated Bette. And i think it was important for Tina's character because for the entire first season she was being all submissive and the perfect house wife, she didn't have any power and she was emotionally destroyed after losing her first child and Bette's betrayal, so in that scene she took her power back. And in S2 she is way more decisive and independent.

 It's terrible written? For sure. It's was unnecessary? Hell yeah. But at least they managed do to something most of those types of scenes don't: it actually means something and has impact on characters arcs instead of just because exploited and fetichized (like the GOT one that i mentioned)

I'm sorry if this sounds “too cold” or wrong but I'm trying to analyze the scene being writing critical, analysing the writing. Out of that writing critical, i think the actions are terrible and should never happen in real world, consent is important and sexy af

Now about Jordi, i don't remember much, i really remember way more the two first seasons than the others, and that's why I'm re watching lol

Bette really is a girl boss and likes to control shit so it's only natural that this part of her personality would reflect on her sex life. Do I still think it could be better written? Hell yeah

Now with Gigi i think it was a okay scene, the two already had sex before and seem aware of how the other liked. The second scene between them is way more of a quicky than passionate and sexy like the first one. That happens, people have sex to relief stress and relax, that's was what happened in this scene.

I think Bette do love women but she have this thing where she always have to be in control, always have to be the dominant one. Even when she bottoms, she is the dominant. And not only about woman but about everything in her life. Maybe because she feels like she have to prove something, maybe because she is a lesbian woc and fears that if she didn't acted that way the world would eat her alive, i don't know.

Dude no, that's okay. I love analyse scenes and characters, i even planing to do two of them for Jenny and Bette after I finish my re watch

And yes, and i think Gigi and Dani will ended the season together. And I'm surprised on how they relationship is being actually good written, it's so satisfying watch their scenes together

[fedonciadale]

Hi! I don’t know if someone already asked you or if you wrote something about it, but what do you think about Young Griff? What will happen to him? Is he going to meet Jon and the Starks, and if so what will their interactions be like?

Hi there!

I haven’t written anything yet, but I can alert you to a meta by @really-sad-devil-guy where they talk about the betrothals of Arianne Martell and how they lead towards Aegon /Young Griff (in a possible parallel to Jonsa) (x).

I must admit that I thought Young Griff was not the real thing, when I first read ADWD, but by now @sayruq and others have convinced me that Young Griff is indeed Aegon VI Targaryen.

I thought that the baby swap was suspicious and I didn’t believe it, because we already had several mystery babies and baby swaps. The obvious parallel is Jon Snow’s maneuver to save Mance’s son (a king’s son) by forcing Gilly to take him away from Castle Black instead of her own son.

By now, I’ve come to a different conclusion. I think that the Gilly baby swap is actually foreshadowing for the Aegon baby swap that has already happened but about which we only learn in ADWD.

Since the stand-in for Aegon was killed, it might well be that Craster’s son might be killed as well, because Jon is dead and cannot tell the people at Castle Black that ‘Monster’ is not Mance’s son.

It could also be, that both babies survive the second baby swap.

Nevertheless I think, GRRM deliberately raises suspicions about Aegon being real. There is the whole thing about the “mummer’s dragon” and all that, that happens in the prophecies Dany gets. It could well be that Aegon, not Quentyn is the “sun’s son”. He is a  Martell on his mother’s side and it might well come to it that he chooses the Martells over the Targs.

We must remember however that the prophecies in ASOIAF are not there to guide the reader or the characters, they are there to divert the reader’s attention and with Dany in particular to lead her astray by misinterpreting the prophecies she gets - just like Stannis and Cersei are lead astray by prophecy, one by trying to fulfill them, one by trying to avoid them.

So Aegon will probably marry Arianne and they will be quite successful. In the books, the Lannister rule over King’s Landing might be broken earlier. I think that Aegon will be well established when Dany will arrive in Westeros.

Dany will convince herself that he can’t be real, because then he would have the superior claim, and that is why she will immediately be in conflict with him. She will brush aside all evidence that he is real and stake her claim as ‘superior’.

I fear, that Dany will be his death, but hopefully Arianne will be able to escape. Aegon’s death probably will look to Dany like the final triumph and she will think that she has finally beaten prophecy. She will be deluded to think herself safe and then the final real betrayal will hit.

As how Jon and the Starks come into it, that is more difficult. I think that Sansa will stay North and probably she’ll never meet Aegon. Jon probably will go South to get dragons and he might meet Aegon. I think if anything it will make him very wary around Dany and he’ll probably try to hide his own parentage because it will put him in danger. I’m not sure how the timeline will be there. I think the emotional impact on Jon would be greater if he meets his brother, likes him and sees him killed. In regard to hiding DarkDany it might be better if Jon never meets Aegon and we don’t see him being suspicious of Dany because of Aegon’s death.

As for Aegon’s character: I think he is actually one of the decent Targs. We see him through Tyrion’s critical eyes and that is probably why most of the fandom has come to the conclusion that he is a bit of a prat. But if you try to look past Tyrion’s bias I think he is quite promising actually.

Thanks for the ask!

[janiedean]

not to be that person but idk why everyone keeps behaving like sansa surviving KL and LF means she's smarter than every other stark like only court intrigues and politics require you to be smart?? and surviving amongst the smallfolk and assassins and night's watch and beyond the wall is all about brawn and physical strength??? that's so... classist lmfao, like surviving without revealing you're a highborn in a warzone, not starving to death, not being killed by soldiers/assassins/whatnot requires as much brains as surviving court politics. jon had to deal with politics at the NW and with Stannis. admittedly bran's story was doesn't at all in the show but he's about the only one who manages to explore his warging abilities fully it's not a piece of cake?? and arya had to escape KL, survive flea bottom, then harrenhal (under ROOSE BOLTON FFS) and the bwb and the red wedding AND get to braavos and survive the faceless men whoch is supposedly the leading assassin organization in asoiaf.

i'm not even getting into everything dany's done and survived lol. but okay samsa is the only genius in westeros, we know she is because tyrion says so i guess? not to mention show sansa's political "mentors" are possible the WORST examples of rulers we have - cersei and littlefinger. they didn't give 2 shits about ruling or the smallfolk or leadership, just about their own power. and i'd say that's important given how much time grrm spends showing us how the smallfolk suffer because of the games played by kings and queens.

this... actually requires a bit of going into it but like not counting that show sansa was a travesty and I'm choosing to not acknowledge it, and show lf was... I mean I'm not even going into how much it was a disservice to the og char whom I detest but honestly book!lf wouldn't marry sansa to anyone he didn't do research about lmfao but like not going into... those... plot holes.....

the entire point is that in the book sansa ends up under those two's tutelage anyway and... she's posed to do the contrary? what does she think looking at c.? that when she's queen she wants to be loved not feared, and like... being with lf is testing her morals but it's obvious that since she survived staying kind until now (I mean... again it's her leitmotiv she helped lancel & about everyone she could who was a jerk to her to the point it sent at least lancel into a faith crisis, she felt bad for joffrey like FOR FUCKING JOFFREY COME ON that's her selling point HER FUCKING SELLING POINT) then she'll just... gain enough political knowledge to outsmart people when she wants to but she won't use it to be a jerk she'll use it.. to.. help her family... when they're reunited which is p obvious to me but nvm

the thing is that people have decided to attach it to the underdog female character goes up the power ladder trope which.... like that's not it

also there's the part where like people are so caught up in the whole WHO HAS IT WORSE BETWEEN SANSA AND ARYA WHO IS THE BEST feud that... they don't notice that they have specular ways of dealing with trauma like arya is dealing with having to lose her identity/risking not knowing who she is anymore and she has to deal with increasing violence/ptsd-related trauma bc she's throw in the middle of everything bad she could end up in like she was almost in the red wedding I was 90% sure she also died until I saw she had a chapter after, while sansa has managed to dodge courtly poisons by being herself and by not letting it change who she is which tyrion noticed which everyone noticed which is why guess what tyrion is willing to stand up to his father and tell him no when it comes to actually having sex with her when he couldn't for the marriage and she's the only person that managed to get past sandor's trauma issues enough that he tried to actually help her for what he could, like... arya has de-personalization to overcome, sansa is holding to her guns by staying herself and she has to learn what good she can from lf before ditching him and keeping on staying herself like it's fucking specular it's not supposed to be a game of who has it worse

(wish ppl would get it also with jaime and tyrion and their coping with trauma but nvm)

the fact that ppl downplay that jon isn't politically an idiot at all irks me forever but like... bruh the dude handled being lord commander, an entire siege when he was like seventeen and was hobbling around on crutches, managed to infiltrate the wildlings without anyone finding out (and it traumatized the shit out of him but nvm) and if only he was good at PR he wouldn't have gotten juliuscaesared, like... okay X°DDD

I mean... yes it's classist but that's a dead horse to beat, if people actually took that angle into account they wouldn't write off brienne or davos chapters as BORING if only bc they're the only ones where you see how not-nobles are doing as in badly X°D

anyway like all stark kids have enough smarts to survive their storylines and robb had to be taken out with a betrayal so he wasn't being that stupid either differently from what my villain origin story thinks but again as someone said once if you hate a stark kid to prop up your fave your fave most likely would hate you so that's my stance X°D

but like... the point is that sansa was shown to gaf about others/the smallfolk/people lower than her in the food chain which dnd/half of this fandom didn't get which is why she'll be an excellent regent for bran and I'm dying on that hill but again this entire thing where you have to pit your fave against everyone else to show how much more badass/smarter they are is imvho a useless exercise because then I'll cut the gordian knot and say that if gilly managed to survive at least seventeen years with her father in that context knowing that her mother was also her sister and that she'd get the same treatment and if she had male children they'd get put out in the open and killed and then was forced to swap her own baby for another without knowing if that baby was going to die or not and she still had it in herself to not turn into a complete asshole she wins for toughest survivor in westeros at least out of the girls unless we want jeynep to give her a run for her money because like... going from lf to ramsay and not as a protegé and considering she was afraid ramsay was going to sic dogs on her when they saved her I think we can maybe ger some perspective here X°DDDD

(I'm not even going into the guys because honestly there's an amount of trauma that's not quantifiable in there X°DD)

like...... again everyone has it bad in these books and propping up your fave making the others look bad makes no sense bc if you love your fave then you have reasons to and you don't need to compare them to others to make them look as good as you think they are and that's my hill to die on X°D

[tatticstudio55]

Let’s look at these famous “parallels” between Dany and Cersei

(Because I’ve been re-reading AFFC and ADWD simultaneously and couldn’t help noticing these. This list might be expanded btw)

Dealing with a guest who’s pissing them off

CERSEI:

"Aye," her uncle said, "and from what I saw of Joffrey, you are as unfit a mother as you are a ruler."

She threw the contents of her wine cup full in his face.

DANY:

"Be that as it may, they do not trust you. The men of New Ghis feel the same. Words are wind, as you yourself have so oft said. No words of yours will secure this peace for Meereen. Your foes require deeds. They would see us wed, and they would see me crowned as king, to rule beside you."

Dany filled his wine cup again, wanting nothing so much as to pour the flagon over his head and drown his complacent smile. "Marriage or carnage. A wedding or a war. Are those my choices?"

Dealing with war refugees

CERSEI:

A hundred gold cloaks with staves and swords and maces could clear this rabble quick enough. That was what Lord Tywin would have done. He would have ridden over them instead of walking through.

[…]

"High Holiness," she said, "these sparrows are frightening the city. I want them gone."

"Where should they go, Your Grace?"

There are seven hells, any one of them will serve. "Back where they came from, I would imagine."

DANY:

"It shall be done, Magnificence," said Reznak mo Reznak. "What of these Astapori?"

My children. "They are coming here for help. For succor and protection. We cannot turn our backs on them."

Ser Barristan frowned. "Your Grace, I have known the bloody flux to destroy whole armies when left to spread unchecked. The seneschal is right. We cannot have the Astapori in Meereen."

Dany looked at him helplessly. It was good that dragons did not cry. "As you say, then. We will keep them outside the walls until this … this curse has run its course. Set up a camp for them beside the river, west of the city. We will send them what food we can. Perhaps we can separate the healthy from the sick."

Dealing with people who knows too much

CERSEI:

Qyburn arrived before the food. Lady Falyse had put down three more cups by then, and was beginning to nod, though from time to time she would rouse and give another sob. The queen took Qyburn aside and told him of Ser Balman's folly. "I cannot have Falyse spreading tales about the city. Her grief has made her witless. Do you still need women for your . . . work?"

"I do, Your Grace. The puppeteers are quite used up."

"Take her and do with her as you will, then. But once she goes down into the black cells . . . need I say more?"

"No, Your Grace. I understand."

"Good." The queen donned her smile once again. "Sweet Falyse, Maester Qyburn's here. He'll help you rest."

DANY:

The Shavepate had urged her to put the man to death. "At least rip out his tongue. This man's lie could destroy us all, Magnificence." Instead Dany chose to pay the blood price. No one could tell her the worth of a daughter, so she set it at one hundred times the worth of a lamb. "I would give Hazzea back to you if I could," she told the father, "but some things are beyond the power of even a queen. Her bones shall be laid to rest in the Temple of the Graces, and a hundred candles shall burn day and night in her memory. Come back to me each year upon her nameday, and your other children shall not want … but this tale must never pass your lips again."

Dealing with criticism and thinly veiled accusations

CERSEI:

"The Red Keep has had no master-at-arms since Aron Santagar was slain," Ser Loras said, with a hint of reproach in his voice. "His Grace is almost nine, and eager to learn. At his age he should be a squire. Someone has to teach him."

Someone will, but it will not be you. "Pray, who did you squire for, ser?" she asked sweetly. "Lord Renly, was it not?"

"I had that honor."

"Yes, I thought as much." Cersei had seen how tight the bonds grew between squires and the knights they served. She did not want Tommen growing close to Loras Tyrell. The Knight of Flowers was no sort of man for any boy to emulate. "I have been remiss. With a realm to rule, a war to fight, and a father to mourn, somehow I overlooked the crucial matter of naming a new master-at-arms. I shall rectify that error at once."

**

"Night soil can be washed away more easily than blood, Your Grace. If the plaza was befouled, it was befouled by the execution that was done here."

He dares throw Ned Stark in my face? "We all regret that. Joffrey was young, and not as wise as he might have been. Lord Stark should have been beheaded elsewhere, out of respect for Blessed Baelor . . . but the man was a traitor, let us not forget."

[…]

"War is a dreadful thing. These atrocities are the work of the northmen, and of Lord Stannis and his demon-worshipers."

"Some of my sparrows speak of bands of lions who despoiled them . . . and of the Hound, who was your own sworn man. At Saltpans he slew an aged septon and despoiled a girl of twelve, an innocent child promised to the Faith. He wore his armor as he raped her and her tender flesh was torn and crushed by his iron mail. When he was done he gave her to his men, who cut off her nose and nipples."

"His Grace cannot be held responsible for the crimes of every man who ever served House Lannister. Sandor Clegane is a traitor and a brute. Why do you think I dismissed him from our service? He fights for the outlaw Beric Dondarrion now, not for King Tommen."

DANY:

The weaver raised her head. "Every day we told each other that the dragon queen was coming back." The woman had thin lips and dull dead eyes, set in a pinched and narrow face. "Cleon had sent for you, it was said, and you were coming."

He sent for me, thought Dany. That much is true, at least.

[…]

"Others blamed Daenerys," said the weaver, "but more of us still loved you. 'She is on her way,' we said to one another. 'She is coming at the head of a great host, with food for all.' "

I can scarce feed my own folk. If I had marched to Astapor, I would have lost Meereen.

[…]

"Even then some said that you were coming," said the weaver. "They swore they had seen you mounted on a dragon, flying high above the camps of the Yunkai'i. Every day we looked for you."

I could not come, the queen thought. I dare not.

[…]

"It is good that you have come," she told the Astapori. "You will be safe in Meereen."

The cobbler thanked her for that, and the old brickmaker kissed her foot, but the weaver looked at her with eyes as hard as slate. She knows I lie, the queen thought. She knows I cannot keep them safe. Astapor is burning, and Meereen is next.

[…]

"These are not apples, Ben," said Dany. "These are men and women, sick and hungry and afraid." My children. "I should have gone to Astapor."

Dealing with prophecies

CERSEI:

She promised me I should be queen, but said another queen would come . . ." Younger and more beautiful, she said. ". . . another queen, who would take from me all I loved."

"And you wish to forestall this prophecy?"

More than anything, she thought. "Can it be forestalled?"

"Oh, yes. Never doubt that."

"How?"

"I think Your Grace knows how."

She did. I knew it all along, she thought. Even in the tent. "If she tries I will have my brother kill her."

[…]

It was a pity that Maggy the Frog was dead. Piss on your prophecy, old woman. The little queen may be younger than I, but she has never been more beautiful, and soon she will be dead.

DANY:

When Reznak and Skahaz appeared, she found herself looking at them askance, mindful of the three treasons. Beware the perfumed seneschal. She sniffed suspiciously at Reznak mo Reznak. I could command the Shavepate to arrest him and put him to the question. Would that forestall the prophecy? Or would some other betrayer take his place? Prophecies are treacherous, she reminded herself, and Reznak may be no more than he appears.

Dealing with sneers or matters of disrespect

CERSEI:

"One more thing. A trifling matter." He gave her an apologetic smile and told her of a puppet show that had recently become popular amongst the city's smallfolk; a puppet show wherein the kingdom of the beasts was ruled by a pride of haughty lions. "The puppet lions grow greedy and arrogant as this treasonous tale proceeds, until they begin to devour their own subjects. When the noble stag makes objection, the lions devour him as well, and roar that it is their right as the mightiest of beasts."

"And is that the end of it?" Cersei asked, amused. Looked at in the right light, it could be seen as a salutary lesson.

"No, Your Grace. At the end a dragon hatches from an egg and devours all of the lions."

The ending took the puppet show from simple insolence to treason. "Witless fools. Only cretins would hazard their heads upon a wooden dragon." She considered a moment. "Send some of your whisperers to these shows and make note of who attends. If any of them should be men of note, I would know their names."

"What will be done with them, if I may be so bold?"

"Any men of substance shall be fined. Half their worth should be sufficient to teach them a sharp lesson and refill our coffers, without quite ruining them. Those too poor to pay can lose an eye, for watching treason. For the puppeteers, the axe."

DANY:

"We are all dead, then. You gave us death, not freedom." Ghael leapt to his feet and spat into her face.

Strong Belwas seized him by the shoulder and slammed him down onto the marble so hard that Dany heard Ghael's teeth crack. The Shavepate would have done worse, but she stopped him.

"Enough," she said, dabbing at her cheek with the end of her tokar. "No one has ever died from spittle. Take him away."

Views on torture

CERSEI:

Even in the black cells, all they got from him were denials, prayers, and pleas for mercy. Before long, blood was streaming down his chin from all his broken teeth, and he wet his dark blue breeches three times over, yet still the man persisted in his lies. "Is it possible we have the wrong singer?" Cersei asked.

"All things are possible, Your Grace. Have no fear. The man will confess before the night is done." Down here in the dungeons, Qyburn wore roughspun wool and a blacksmith's leather apron. To the Blue Bard he said, "I am sorry if the guards were rough with you. Their courtesies are sadly lacking." His voice was kind, solicitous. "All we want from you is the truth."

DANY:

"If he is not the Harpy, he knows him. I can find the truth of that easy enough. Give me your leave to put Hizdahr to the question, and I will bring you a confession."

"No," she said. "I do not trust these confessions. You've brought me too many of them, all of them worthless."

 MISCELLANOUS

Dealing with adverse political faction(s)

CERSEI: gleefully send Loras off to Dragonstone to be killed, frame Margaery and Margaery’s cousins for adultery, publicly shame Mace Tyrell at Tywin’s funeral, insult the Tyrells at every turn.

DANY: marries one of their highest members, try to reach peaceful agreements.

Priorities

DANY:

“The Tolosi had replied to her request for an alliance by proclaiming her a whore and demanding that she return Meereen to its Great Masters. Even that was preferable to the answer of Mantarys, which came by way of caravan in a cedar chest. Inside she had found the heads of her three envoys, pickled.”

CERSEI:

Can’t think of a specific passage here, but we know enough of Cersei to guess that if she were in Dany’s place, it would’ve been written more like this:

The Tolosi had replied to her request for an alliance by way of caravan in a cedar chest. Inside she had found the heads of her three envoys, pickled. Even that was preferable to the answer of Mantarys, that proclaimed her a whore and demanded that she return Meereen to its former rulers.

[yeniayofnymeria]

GRRM's Original Outline "What has changed?"

Hello,

Now you all know Martin's letter he wrote in '93. When this letter was written and sent to the editor, the first 13 chapters (200 pages) were already written. In addition, the book consisted of three volumes of the first stage, but as you know, but its 7 volumes now.When we read the letter and the first 5 books, the first comment made was very different and different from the first outline; one or two things remain the same. But is it really? Here I would like to discuss this with you. I think I will go through the events step by step and you will make your own contributions when you read. Let's start!

1. Stark-Lannister war. It's remain, nothing changed.

2. (Dany) Targaryen's 7K invasion with Dothraks. It's still did not happend but we know Dany has Unsullied and some sellswords and next book, she will have Dothraks too. She will linger a little more in essos and then come to the West for the conquer. It's remain too.

3. The Others. GRRM said " Their story will be [sic] heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. " It's remain too.

4. Five Main Key Characters (Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany and Tyrion). " In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow." It's remain too.

5. Fall of the Starks. " Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. " Yes, indeed it happened.

6. Dead of Robert and long may live new king! "Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn... will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will to brutal Joffrey, still a minor." Yes, it happened too. This substance remained the same too.

7.Sansa and Joffrey. "Sansa Stark wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. " Sansa betrays his family anyway but she did not wed Joffrey or bear his son. This substance has changed a bit.

8. Bran's coma and dream and greenseer and dead of Robb. " Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream... He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake... Robb Stark will die in battle." 

Bran's the same, but Robb's got some change. Robb doesn't die in a war against Joffrey, Jaime and Tyrion. But he really wins a few battles at first (against Tywin. So there's no Tywin in the first place) and then he dies at the Red Wedding.

Bran's in a coma. So Jaime and Cersei are standing exactly. This shows that Jon Arryn's death is due to his learning of the relationship(Jaime-Cersei). So Joff was a bastard in the first outline too. Ned died for the same reason.

Tyrion did not burn Winterfell but fought against Stark army and became Hand of King. Jaime fought against Robb too and lost, was captured. This part is different in some ways, but the same in some ways.

9. Jon Snow, The Wall and Lord Commander. " Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch "

Jon goes the wall and will became lord commander but Benjen was lord commander in the first place but it seems he dies anyway or disappear. It's remain.

10. Helping family and Jonarya Love. " When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Wounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving ... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book. "

Winterfell is being burned by Greyjoys. Cat is not with Stark children, he is with Robb. Bran and others run away and went to the Wall. But Bran and others did not take refuge in the black brothers. Jon has something to do with Arya again. He wants to protect and save her(FArya). He can't do it because of his vows and he's in a lot of pain... And we know who is Jon's real parents.

Jon and Arya love... It's still too early to say anything about it. When Arya goes to the wall, the love between the two emerges. Arya escaped from KL as in the first outline. But instead of going home, she drifted into her own adventure. Arya has been trying to get home and Jon all along. She'll probably go straight to the wall when she gets back from Braavos. There are so many hints about Jonarya love in books. ( https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/125364-jon-arya-hints-and-overall-significance-of-their-relationship-including-part-3/ )

11. Beyond The Wall and Bran-Cat-Arya. "Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wilding encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others." This part has undergone significant changes. Despite this, some small parts remained.

Arya is not with them, Cat neither but she dies anyway (and came back but as fire wight not ice wight). Bran never meet Mance(yes, Mance exists) and see others but he sees deads and met Cold Hand(ice wight) and BR and Singers. I guess Rickon is not exists.

Arya has Needle, that's mean Jon gave her it anyway. And direwolves...

12. Dany, Viserys and Drogo. “Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Danerys [sic] will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. " Only 5% of this part has changed.

13. Dragon Eggs and Invasion Plans."There, hunted by [unclear] of her life, she stumbles on a [something about dragon eggs] a young dragon will give Daenerys [unclear] bend [unclear] to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms." This part has changed 95%.

14. Tyrion's Fate. "Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow."

Yes, it seems this part almost completely changed. But Tyrion has been betrayed by his family in every way(Tysha thing and attempt to kill), just it changed "how it will be" This betrayal caused him to change sides. Only on Targaryen side instead of Stark. But Tyrion will probably be on the Stark side too.

Tyrion is exiled to Essos, not north. Jaime's not the bad guy in the story, Cersei is. Joffrey's dying. In the first Outline, Jaime kills everyone, so Sansa is dead. In the present story, Sansa is still alive and her story continues. They're not named, but probably Joff's siblings are in the first outline and they're dead.

There's no competition between Tyrion and Jon(Arya). It's hard to expect it at this point. We need to wait for the next encounter, but I don't think it will. Unlike the first otline, Jon and Tyrion are good friends. If GRRM designs a love triangle like the first one, maybe they can be enemies. Or maybe he changed the third candidate for that love triangle. (However, if you read Mercy POV, GRRM is waving its hand to this love triangle there.)

In general, the outline / skeleton remains exactly the same, even the characters' motives are more or less the same; there are big changes in a few places, but not so big changes in the remaining parts. Same affliction, betrayal and so on that will ensure the development of the character. Situations occurred in one way or another. It's just that things have gone differently ... but betrayal comes from the family again and (Jon) he's suffering because he can't help the family.

He keeps his end.

GEORGE: […]As I write these last two books, I’ll be moving towards the ending I’ve known since 1991/

“Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion’s arc was gonna be through this, what Arya’s arc was gonna be through this, what JonSnow’s arc is gonna be. ”

...

I don’t want to reveal what I’ve planned for some of these characters, but I’m pretty well on track with most of the major characters. It’s minor characters like Bronn that assume greater importance.”

At Balticon 2016 he said he knows who sits on the Iron Throne at the end.

A year later, in a video interview he continued by saying he has always known the fates of his main characters, who lives or dies, marries who...etc since 1991 when he began writing.

That's all. Thank you for read and sorry again for my bad English. Bye.

[oveliagirlhaditright]

If you were to do a crossover between Kingdom Hearts and Game of Thrones, how would you do it?

I honestly feel like it wouldn’t be that hard?

People might act like sex in needed in Game of Thrones, but it’s really not, imo (the only instance it is, is when characters such as Dany are fighting against rapists). And the books had less of it than the show did.

I also don’t think them cursing is necessary (but if it is, the Japanese version of KH actually curses some).

For me, the thing that really sets Game of Thrones apart is that every character is gray, and that the “good guys” usually don’t win but the bad guys do. Though that isn’t entirely true. Like, A Song of Ice and Fire set itself apart by showing how being a good person actually gets you screwed over in life, and the people who don’t have qualms about doing bad things win over you. But at the same time... if you do bad things and hurt good people, people are going to remember that and it’s going to bite you in the ass in the end. So while the story started with the heroes, the Starks, essentially getting annihilated, the chickens have now come to roost, and the survivors are getting more powerful while people like Cersei are starting to have to lay in the bed that they made. All of that is the important part of this story to me.

And I think you can easily have that in Kingdom Hearts. 

I’m going to treat Game of Thrones like it’s just a one world visit in a KH game, but if you want me to do more than that, I can:)

Sora, Donald, and Goofy--or whoever--would clearly come into the “War of the Dawn” part of the story. I.E: the fight against the Ice Zombies. As the real moral of A Song of Ice and Fire, is that if humans waste time squabbling over stupid things, they’re going to miss the bigger picture and it’ll be too late for them. (And the others/White Walkers are supposed to somewhat be a metaphor for Climate Change.) And of course our heroes help Jon Snow, who is really heading this, fight and defeat them.

But since it’s still Game of Thrones, there’s still probably still political intrigue, mistrust, and betrayals going on. Sora and company probably get fed the Sparks Notes version of everyone’s stories, and try to help lessen tensions between them so that they’ll actually work together and adhere to the moral of this story. Sora uses his super power of connecting to other people that way. 

Though Sora is probably surprised to hear some of the crazy things these characters have lived through, or the crazy things they’ve done to each other. If we want to add some gray to Kingdom Hearts like Game of Thrones is gray (so Sora learns from the worlds he goes to)... maybe hearing how the Starks were screwed over by some people they trusted, makes him wonder if he should be so trusting. Perhaps he remembers how his “friends being his power” was almost his downfall in Chain of Memories. But Sora being Sora, he shakes off this funk. But it’s still a chilling thought.

And then, maybe to honor that both series are somewhat puzzle box ones, maybe Sora somehow gives the Game of Thrones character a clue about who Azor Ahai is, and they help him figure out whatever insane new plot conviction Nomura has worked into his plot.

IDK. LOL

If you want, I can try and think about some character interactions, too. But I will say, that I think comparing Kairi to Sansa, Naminé to Daenerys, Xion to Arya, and Aqua to Brienne has always been pretty apt. Though in some ways, you might say that Kairi is more Dany and Naminé is more Sansa, but meh. I make the Naminé and Dany comparison, because both girls were abused and just going along with things until they both found their power and eventually said “no”. And Kairi with Sansa because, for the most part, Sansa has somehow never lost her kindness throughout everything. She somehow even felt bad when her torturer Joffrey was murdered! And that’s very Princess of Heart Kairi. But I could also see people saying Naminé is more Sansa, because Naminé isn’t snarky like Kairi (though to be honest, Sansa isn’t a perfect flower. Because she at least has a history of bullying her little sister some. But she was a dumb child. Who cares?)--and neither are a fighter--and Kairi is more fiery and  active like Dany. I can see both sides. But Kairi definitely gets the Sansa treatment of being a victim more than Naminé does (probably partly because Naminé didn’t exist for a while). Oy... 

And while it’s just a coincidence, of course, and does not matter in the grand scheme of things (because if I instead thought Kairi was more like Arya, I would say that and not care what character looked like who), I do find it funny that I see Kairi as Sansa, Naminé as Daenerys, Xion as Arya, and Aqua as Brienne, and they all sort of look like those characters. LOL

...I got off-topic there. Sorry.

And thanks for the ask!

Edit: And Sora would love seeing Dany’s dragons.

[jackoshadows]

I will say, that it’s a bit funny to see all the Sansa critiques and dislike across forums, reddit and my dash after the show ended.

I still remember the time after season 6 when it was taboo to dislike the character and the few of us - mainly Jon fans -  on tumblr were deemed misogynistic haters for not loving Sansa like everyone else was. After season 7, we were joined by Arya fans after Arya got the same shitty writing because she shared scenes with Sansa.

I remember Dany fans unfollowing me on tumblr for daring to dislike the character and writing big essays on how Dany and Sansa were the same and both characters should be equally liked blah blah etc.

And now seeing Dany fans’ reaction to Sansa? lol! Welcome to the club guys.

Sansa is a terrible, terrible Mary Sue character on the show who will ruin any character she shares scenes with. That is a fact. Jon Snow was actually a decent character on the show till season 5 - until they dumped Sansa into his plot and made it all about how awesome she was.

Bran. Bran has actual ruling experience - he was the prince of WF while Robb was fighting in the south. He has learned from the same teachers as Robb and Jon. In the books he has emotions and feelings and ideas and pro-actively does things. This is a character that is going to be King in the books - either of the 7K or WF. But the minute he gets to WF, they nerf him and reduce him to a monotonous robot with nothing to do. Why? Because they wanted Sansa as lady of WF strutting around looking important and doing shit like instructing armorers how to make armor. The ending of the series made no sense with Bran as king - because instead of spending time on building up Bran as a leader - D&D were busy writing their Sansa fanfiction.

Arya? She was not even an actual character there at the end. Just a cheerleader for Sansa. They basically gave her entire North/WF plot to Sansa. Which means without her book plot,  they gave her the NK plot - which means Jon’s WW plot ended up a bust. As much as I liked Arya and Gendry hooking up , it’s a bit sad to go through the Arya tag or see Arya posts on my dash that’s all about Gendrya. Gendry is more or less a side character in Arya’s story in the books. And that’s what Arya’s character has been reduced to on the show - Gendrya. She had no scenes with Tyrion or Dany, the Jon-Arya relationship was non-existent, the political know how of the North she learned from Ned in the books was not there because she is only good for killing and at the end she gets kicked out of the North. You know who got all this? Sansa.

I mean towards the end, it was Sansa making decisions about soldiers and defense and war planning and refugees and Jon just standing there looking gormless. Jon, Bran and Arya - the 3 characters most connected to the North - all got shat on so that D&D could write their Sansa fanfiction.

I don’t even have to say anything about what happened to Dany the moment she started sharing scenes with Sansa. Or Tyrion being called a fool by Sansa. Or Edmure being asked to shut up and sit down. Or Sansa snarking at LF. Other characters constantly telling us how smart Sansa was. Arya supporting Sansa over Jon and telling him that Sansa was family and hinting that he better chose properly. Jon knowing in the books to not trust Sansa and rushing to tell her his secrets on the show. Sansa never facing any consequences at all for her constant betrayals. Sansa getting everything she ever wanted at the end.

The Sansa fanfiction was part of the reason for why the last season was so terrible. Along with the writing for the other D&D faves. They really liked Lena Headey and Cersei so the WW and the AOTD inexplicably ended early destroying the show’s entire premise. They tried to make Cersei sympathetic because she’s a mother. Dany’s story was more about benevolent Tyrion - the guy who bitterly rapes a slave because she was repulsed by him and who GRRM has called a ‘good villain’ -  and how much of a good guy he was. And so Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, Jaime etc. got shitty characterization and plot because D&D were really telling Sansa, Cersei and Tyrion’s stories. And that’s why the ending sucked and made no sense - because it’s damn clear that the book endings are not about these characters, except for Tyrion.

We can only wait for the books for a better story to the characters we know and love from the first 5 books of the series. 

[lupinusalbus]

King Without a Crown - Jon Snow in the Final Season

This may be a slightly different reading of Jon and Dany’s relationship on Game of Thrones, but one that I think makes sense based upon perspectives that I’ve read and developed over the several months since the finale aired.  The finale was disappointing to a broad swathe of viewers, and for different reasons; many of the disappointments seemed to be focused on Jon and Dany’s relationship.  These two were arguably the central characters of the show and George RR Martin once told a director from GOT that the coming together of Jon and Dany was central to the point of it all.  For all we know, Martin may have modified his views since then, but the death of Daenerys at Jon’s hands was a climactic moment that had been building for years, and one which seemingly left Jon broken.

  The Origins of Their Liaison

The star-crossed Targaryens met in season seven of Game of Thrones when Jon Snow travels to Dragonstone in order to seek Dany’s help against the Night King and his army.  Jon as a character is driven by his inner moral compass, rather than by an interest in gaining power or external rewards.   He is a classic introvert and is motivated by an idealistic sense of good and evil and right and wrong; which leads him to become a “protector” not unlike his foster father Ned Stark.  Jon’s idealism, at least on the show, may predispose him to be somewhat blind to those characters who are more gray in their personal behavior.  Jon finds out the hard way that doing what is right according to his inner sense of honor does not always lead to a happy resolution.  Yet to not live by his personal code would mean the loss of the integrity which is most precious to him. 

I think that for the TV show (the books may be quite different) the central reason Jon falls for Dany is that he sees her as someone who is similar to himself in being motivated to protect others.  Although Dany is full of herself and her “destiny” in a way that Jon is not, we do see Tyrion telling Jon “she protects people from monsters, just as you do”.  We also see Missendei giving Jon a speech about being freed by Dany and about her being “the Queen we chose”.  Putting aside for now the question of Jon’s gullibility, this representation of Dany would be just the sort of thing that appeals to an idealist like Jon.  But the coup de grace happened when Dany flew in to rescue Jon and his party from the Whitewalkers, complete with a white coat.  I believe the white coat was shown in order to emphasize the better side of Dany that many people chose to see and believe in to their eventual detriment.  Jon was by no means the only person who was drawn in by this aspect of Dany’s persona.  Tyrion, Varys and Ser Davos were all Westerosi players who believed in Dany and spoke about the possibility of marrying her to Jon Snow in episode one of season eight.

In the beginning of Jon and Dany’s liaison, after Jon returns from the Wight hunt, both are shown to be giving up something which they value to the other.  Dany, overcome by Jon’s brush with death, and having seen his previous wounds, tells him that she will fight the Walkers with him without the earlier  precondition that he kneel to her.  Jon, also seemingly overcome by the moment, bends the knee and gives up his crown.  Dany is taken aback by this turn of events, and then cries when Jon says that the Northerners will “see her for what she is.”

This line, which is ominous given what eventually transpires, marks the turning point in how Jon sees Dany - someone who is like himself in the desire to protect others.  For Dany, entering into a relationship with Jon Snow is an advancement over her prior liaisons.  Although she loved Khal Drogo, he reflected and fed Dany’s dark side in many ways.  Although Dany liked Darrio Naharis, their relationship was mostly transactional and she easily left him behind.  In Jon’s case, we see that Dany has seriously fallen for someone who reflects her better self.  This is likely the reason she loves him, and their relationship is a mirror for her inner struggle.  Unfortunately, it’s a struggle that she will lose, as her dark side will win out in the end.

Jon Bending the Knee - A Poor Decision

The show depicts Jon as having a choice about whether to bend the knee to Dany, even though he later implies to the Northern Lords that he didn’t really have one at all if he wanted to save Westeros from the Night King.  As was recounted above, Dany made the offer to fight with Jon without her previous condition that he bend the knee first.  Jon’s sudden capitulation to Dany in season seven, after spending quite some time refusing her, marks the beginning of his decline as an heroic character, and may have actually contributed to Dany’s downfall.  Had Jon thought through his decision more carefully (as Sansa advised), he may have realized that submitting himself and the North to Dany was not necessarily in her best interest.  He may have been able to shield her from some of the hostility and suspicion with which she was greeted had he presented her as an ally and equal rather than his Queen.  The TV show depicts Dany’s downfall as being almost entirely psychological in origin; mostly stemming from Northerners “loving” Jon/Aegon more and also Jon’s  own ambivalence about their  sexual relationship.   Whether her deterioration had anything to do with the Targaryen madness is not answered definitively; instead the audience is left contemplating the possibility that Jon could have done something to mollify her before it was too late.  

Some viewers saw Jon’s bending the knee as a betrayal of the North and the Starks after they entrusted him with the title of King in the North.  We see in the first episode of season eight that Jon has already lost some support in the North when Sansa reads him a scroll from Lord Glover.  Sansa and Arya, however (and perhaps inexplicably), don’t appear to to overtly think of Jon’s relinquishment as a betrayal so much as an unwise decision that they must at least temporarily accept.  After the Night King is defeated and Jon prepares to march South, they tell him that they don’t trust Dany, but to no avail.

There’s no doubt that the nuances of Jon’s relationship with Dany at this crucial juncture are not well depicted.  Although many fans of the show were thrilled to see these two characters fall for each other, others were shocked that Jon gave up his crown when he didn’t have to.  His decision seemed ill-fated and unwise in the same way Robb’s decision to break his promise to to Walder Frey did in an earlier season.  Both decisions by the Kings in the North had catastrophic consequences and made the North as a power appear to be weak and fickle.  One can only assume this is deliberate on the part of Martin.  Only Sansa appears steadfast in her devotion to the cause of Northern Independence as she is left to try and clean up Jon’s mistakes.   Unfortunately, we don’t get to see Jon’s answer When Sansa asks him why he bent the knee, but the explanations of Jon’s that we do witness are centered around the necessity of  having Dany’s armies and dragons.

Dany herself, up until she learns about Jon’s true identity, seems to believe that she came North primarily out of love for Jon.  She says as much to Sansa, even though the loss of Viserion must also have factored into her decision.  In return, Jon’s having pledged himself to her assures that he will stand with her against Cersei.

Who Manipulated Whom?

This is the question Dany asks Sansa during their only conversation about Jon. Here Dany is trying to cast  herself in the best possible light by implying that she acted selflessly in order to help Jon and the North.  Sansa is skeptical of Dany and Jon’s relationship for more than one reason.  Of central concern is the past treatment of the Starks by the Mad King, which can’t easily be set aside by Northerners.  But what seems most disturbing to Sansa is that Jon has knelt.  Back in season six Sansa and Jon listened as Lord Glover harangued them about Robb’s costly decision to marry for love.  Sansa is now afraid that Jon has made a similar rash decision by bending the knee and thereby subjugating the North to a Targaryen.  

In what way does Sansa suspect Jon is being manipulated?

Obviously, she suspects that Jon has been seduced.  She says as much when she remarks to Jon that Dany is much prettier than her father.  Sansa would naturally suspect that Dany was using Jon in order to gain the North, but would also be thinking about how Robb’s passion for Talisa had disastrous consequences.  The audience doesn’t get to see very much of Jon’s reasoning process about why Dany would be “good”.  Most of his rejoinders to others are simply about reassuring them of her “goodness.”   This is about all that Sansa has to go on, so she is left to think that Jon, like Robb is being ruled by sexual passion.

Jon’s other argument about Dany is that her Dragons and forces are essential for the battle against the Night King.  This reason is much more fact-based, and therefore appears to be accepted as true by the Starks and others.  What is more difficult for Sansa and Arya to accept is that the North will again be subjugated and that Jon threw his crown away for love.

All in all, the idea that either Jon or Dany was manipulating the other doesn’t seem to hold much water.  Dany’s remark to Sansa was probably an attempt to turn the tables on her and get the upper hand.  While Jon definitely wanted Dany to fight with him; the beginning of their liaison looked to be voluntary on both sides, with Jon willingly giving up his crown and Dany pledging to fight before he even did so. 

Jon and Dany’s Relationship Turns Toxic

The turning point in their relationship comes early in season eight once Jon learns that he is a Targaryen.  For good measure, Samwell Tarley drives home the point that Jon is the “True King”.  We, the audience really didn’t get to see Jon’s identity crisis, only his attempt to unify the Starks and the Targaryens by asserting to Dany that “we can live together”.  Jon’s hope that this might actually have happened is another example of his idealism; whereas Dany correctly  predicted what Sansa would do with the explosive information about Jon’s true identity.

The abbreviated number of episodes in season eight and the emphasis on spectacle left many questions unanswered. But after the Battle for Winterfell and Jon’s disclosure to Dany, the series focuses on the disintegration of their relationship.  From their prospective sides, Dany is concerned about Jon now being a rival for the throne, and Jon is disturbed by the incestuous nature of their liaison.  Jon’s reaction and feelings about incest are largely glossed over on the show, and Jon’s sisters seem to be strangely unconcerned about it.  But  deleted lines from The Bells indicate that Dany senses Jon feels “disgusted.”

Dany’s feelings of jealousy about Jon’s hero status in the North (compared to her chilly reception there), and Jon’s doubts about the appropriateness of their relationship is the subtext for the scene in episode five (The Last of the Starks), which shows Jon groveling in order to convince Dany that he doesn’t want the crown.  This scene is disturbing on many levels and seems to reveal the faulty foundation of their “love.”  Dany is entirely unconcerned about what Jon is going through and begs him to keep his identity secret.  In spite of his misgivings about their sexual relationship, Jon’s instinct is to think that his two “families” can live together.  Given Sansa and Dany’s dislike for one another, this seems very naive on his part and makes one wonder whether the entire basis for Jon’s capitulation to Dany is naivete.  But to be fair, Jon is not the only one who has been taken in.

No doubt this is one of the deeper themes intended for Game of Thrones - the possible catastrophic consequences of being swept up in a political movement with a charismatic leader.  

The Meaning of Jon’s Ending in Season Eight

For many viewers, the central mystery about Jon in season eight is the disconcerting nature and therefore ambiguous meaning of his ending.  He does not get fulfillment in love, does not become a hero (at least in the conventional sense), does not become King, and is separated from the family that he saved.  His ideals are shattered once again as he learns that the woman in whom he placed his faith and loyalty was proven to be deeply unworthy and a threat to the entire world.  He appears to be riding into obscurity in the conclusion, perhaps never to be heard from again.

Whether this ending is meant to represent a triumph of the Old Gods in a way that Jon does not understand (making him a pawn of larger forces), or just a subversion of his (and viewer’s) ideals, it is impossible to not think Jon has been left broken and disillusioned once again.  He does, however, pick up Longclaw and ride North with what is left of a people that he protected and who idolize him.  This, of course, suggests that he has found a reason to go forward.  His future stature in Westeros is likely to be legendary because of his past feats, his resurrection, and by virtue of his having killed the Dragon Queen. He is a King without a crown who will no doubt continue to capture the popular imagination and whose legend will only grow going forward.

Jon Snow - If there was a Season Nine his Legend would only Grow ( Photo HBO)