#jon learns the truth of his parentage

[zoklaperzys]

my second born son for a catel.yn.

[angrycommiedyke]

Speculations on Jon and Arya : "The woman is important too"

It’s no secret that Jon Snow has always wanted to be a Stark, and has a strong connection to this house and to the North, with his looks, his direwolf and warging ability, among other things.

“Lord Eddard Stark is my father,” Jon admitted stiffly. Lannister studied his face. “Yes,“ he said. “I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers.“ “Half brothers,“ Jon corrected. He was pleased by the dwarf's comment, but he tried not to let it show. [Jon - AGOT]

Now when Jon is going to learn the truth about his parentage, it’s going to be a mess in his head and he will obviously need time to process. It will cause multiple problems but I just want to focus on one in particular : his identity as a Stark. 

The male lineage tends to be more important, so wherever R+L marriage was valid or not, even if Jon remains a bastard, he won’t be Ned Stark’s bastard but Rhaegar’s. He may then not feel entitled - or less -  to be King in the North (if he is as in the show), or just feel like he doesn't really belong in the North/Winterfell due to his Targaryen father.

And that’s when Arya comes into play. To remind him that “the woman is important too”. 

"The Lannisters are proud," Jon observed. "You'd think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother's House equal in honor to the king's." "The woman is important too!" Arya protested. Jon chuckled. "Perhaps you should do the same thing, little sister. Wed Tully to Stark in your arms." [Arya - AGOT]

So I like to imagine that Arya will be there to remind him that his northern face, which he was proud of when Tyrion mentioned it, isn’t due to his father but his mother. That the sigil he wanted to wear but was never allowed to, is in fact his mother’s. 

"Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister." [Arya - AGOT]

And because the woman is important, he’s no less of a Stark or a northerner. Perphaps Arya will be there to tell him directly or he'll just remember her words.

PS : I also hc that when Jon will reveal to Arya the truth about his real parents, she’s gonna tell him these exact words : “You’re still my brother”. 🥹 And i'm still mad we didn't see the reactions on the show, but let's not start on that

[rise-my-angel]

Some stans actually believe that once Jon learns of his true parentage he will be happy. Jon literally just wants to be acknowledged as a Stark, he wants nothing with that shitty prince or his fire loving family. He might get some closure knowing about Lyanna but Ned Stark will always be his daddy.

I was thinking about this, and really, it doesn't change much of Jon's understanding of Ned. He knows his father isn't telling him the truth, or at least by not saying a word to him about his mother, he is keeping information from him on purpose. He knows Ned was hiding something about his birth, because Jon spent his entire life wondering what couldve happened between his mother and his father to cause him to shut down about it, even to him, even to Catelyn.

Jon already is aware that Ned is hiding something. He just does not know the degree of the secret.

But also, I am sick of people dismissing Neds role in his life. Ned is not Jon's uncle. Sure by blood he is, but Jon was raised thinking that he is his father. He was treated just like a father treats his son, he was loved and given the same education that Robb got, he was raised in the family home getting to grow up with his brothers and sisters.

Jon didn't suddenly lose all those days or evenings he wouldve gotten to spend with his father alone. Didn't suddenly lose all of the times they acted just like a loving father and son with no hangups. He didn't suddenly lose the fact that to Ned Stark, Jon is not his nephew, he is his son.

Jon does not suddenly lose that Ned never even gave him a reason to feel like he wasn't a good enough son. He interacted with his father his whole life in a way that made him feel loved to the point that even now that hes dead, Jon routinely feels frustration that multiple older men in his life have tried to place themselves into the position of a father figure to Jon.

He was given a personalized version of the Mormonts ancestral sword, that was once belonging to Jeors son. Jon's honoured but he is not lost on the implication that Jeor looks at Jon like a pseudo son and it bothers Jon even then. Men can give Jon a thousand swords but it will never change that his father alone is Ned Stark. And keep in mind, this occurs during the period of time early at Castle Black where Jon is resentful and thinks Ned let him come here because this life was all he deserved. And he STILL refused to let someone sway him into seeing a man as a father figure other then Ned Stark.

Jon through all the insecurities and anger, loves Ned Stark as much as a son possibly could. More then once Jon thinks in situations that could lead to his death, about Ned. He always circles back to what would his father think or do. Jon dictates his independent, adult life based around learning to be the honourable man his father wanted him to be and does so without resentment.

My negative opinions of Rhaegar aside, Jon has no attachment to the thought of him as any kind of man. He grew up his whole life knowing the story that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark. He grew up likely hearing the rumours that she was raped. He knew that kidnapping led to her dying tragically at the age of 16 in a way that clearly traumatized his father.

Jon has never been missing a father figure. He has always been missing his mother. Not missing a mother figure, only his mother. The only person he cares to learn about is her because shes the one person in Jon's blood he has never truly known. Then he learns hes heard about his mother his whole life, and realizes the bloodshed caused both for his conception and that she died without having a chance to be with her son at all.

Learning the truth is about realizing WHY Ned did the things he did. Why telling him about his mother was both too painful and too risky. Jon can be angry he was lied too, but does not change that Jon is smart and will understand that Ned did it all to protect Jon.

Jon will realize Ned did not need to raise him as his own son, in his home and family and give him love, to keep him safe. Jon knows Ned did all of that because he loves him the way Ned loved Robb or Bran. Jon will ultimately realize he never actually lost the father he grew up with, because Ned always considered Jon to be his son.

Learning the truth for Jon is about Lyanna, it's about learning that his mother died with her last words begging Ned to protect him because she loved him. It's about Jon realizing he is an echo of the dark shadows of Lyannas final months of life and that he needs to stand up and fight because she couldn't. That he needs to protect the ones he loves the way he wishes he could go back in time and protect her.

It's about realizing hes always had a father, because to Ned, Jon was always his son through and through. And it's about Jon realizing that he needs to live and fight because without him, Lyannas memory will fade away forever and he will not allow that to happen to her again.

Whatever people want to say about how Jon will feel about learning his blood is partly Targaryean, they will always downplay Jon also coming to terms with himself as a Stark.

However Jon will feel about the Targaryean side, none of that will take away that Jon will realize how incredibly important his Stark side is and always was. Their speculations about how Jon will feel about a man hes barley thought about his whole life, should never overpower that the truth leads Jon to the thing that matters.

That Jon Snow has always been loved, and he's always been a Stark. Because he was the son his mother died begging to protect, and he was the son that Ned Stark chose.

[goodqueenaly]

After the long night ends and Jon (possibly) dies for good. Will everyone throughout Westeros know that Jon is not the son of Ned, or will most people still think that Jon is his bastard?

Do I think there will be multiple characters in-universe who may very well survive the looming apocalyptic crisis and will likely learn that Jon was the biological son of Rhaegar Targaryen (and Lyanna Stark)? Yes, I think that’s almost certainly going to be the case. It is perhaps no coincidence that two of the people who were made aware of Robb’s will regarding Jon - that is, Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover - are also currently with Howland Reed, one of the few people alive who were all but definitely present for Jon’s birth at the tower of joy. With the Stark children I think set to convene at Winterfell, and various factions in favor of their respective claims with them, I very much anticipate that the bombshell news regarding Jon’s biological paternity will come up as the dynastic question of House Stark’s leadership is debated. Too, Dany’s prophesied, metaphorical vision of Jon - the blue rose blooming at the Wall - connects him with Lyanna, and by extension Rhaegar. If, and I think when, Jon rides a dragon, his Targaryen heritage may seem confirmed (which is not to say dragonriding necessitates Targaryen parentage - as indeed I think will be the case with the draconically scholastic Tyrion). (And this is without any knowledge to be potentially conveyed by either Benjen, notably not confirmed as dead and almost certainly aware to some extent of the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna, or Wylla/any other individuals at Starfall, where I think extremely likely Gerold Dayne, and by extension Areo Hotah, are headed.)

Do I think that “everyone throughout Westeros [will] know” that Jon’s biological father was Rhaegar Targaryen? I’m not sure what “everyone throughout Westeros” will even understand about the eventual defeat of the Others generally, much less be aware of the specifics regarding those responsible for this defeat. One idea GRRM has returned to again and again throughout ASOIAF is a story whose particulars are exaggerated, twisted, and/or lost through the passage of space and/or time: think of, to give just a few examples, the news of Oxcross reaching King’s Landing with a lycanthropic element added, or the confused rumors of Dany’s dragons serving as a conversation piece for the Citadel’s students, or the myth of Hukko the Pentoshi hero perhaps stemming from a corruption of the Andalish religious figure Hugor. To whatever extent the rest of Westeros becomes aware of the defeat of the Others - and I think that the final showdown against the Others will happen at Winterfell, relatively far from much of Westeros - it’s entirely possible that Jon’s biological parentage gets lost in the shuffle of translating the story to other peoples and regions. Was the dragonriding hero who bravely sacrificed himself to rid the world of demonic supernatural slavers Jon Snow, the bastard son of Lord Eddard, or Jon Stark, legitimized/legitimate brother of the Young Wolf (and perhaps would-be King in the North in his own right), or Jon, son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, or even a figure with another supposed backstory completely? The truth may become obscured as distance, physical and chronological, passes from both the large (or larger) scale revelation of Jon’s biological parentage and the ultimate defeat of the Others.

Also, I have to say it - Jon not being the biological child of Eddard Stark does not at all erase the fact that Jon was (and is) very much Ned’s son. Where Tywin did everything possible to hurt, humiliate, and demean his biological son Tyrion, Ned did everything possible to embrace a boy he knew was not his biological son; Ned was willing to go above and beyond social expectations, even permanently sacrificing some part of his relationship with the wife he loved, to hold out Jon as his son. Consequently, it’s Ned Jon looks to as his father and paternal example; even if Jon eventually learns that half of his DNA came from Rhaegar (and I think he will), I don’t think that knowledge will replace the love Ned and Jon had (and the latter has) for one another.

[jackoshadows]

I feel like Robb's decree legitimizing Jon Snow as Jon Stark is in there to remove the issue of bastardy when Jon learns about his Targaryen lineage.

As in, Jon will learn about who his parents really are as Jon Stark, the KITN. And then the angst for him will be about who he is - Stark or Targaryen and not bastard or legitimate.

Jon Snow goes from Ned's bastard at Winterfell to the Lord Commander's steward at the Night's Watch to undercover agent with the Freefolk to defending the Wall in battle to being elected Lord Commander of the NW to most probably Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North as per Robb's decree.

He goes from one of the lowest positions to one of the highest. From the illegitimate bastard who didn't even have a home (Catelyn wants him gone as soon as Ned leaves for KL) to Lord of Winterfell and KITN.

I can see him thinking that he has reached that pinnacle - KITN - when he hears about his parentage. Which then throws everything into confusion again making him feel like his life has been based on a lie.

And if he then does embrace his Targaryen side/heritage/father it would be because he wants to and not because of the angst/issues around bastardy or the chance that he could indeed be legitimate.

ADwD Jon Snow has already made peace with his bastardy, shrugging off insults and ignoring the bigots and Robb's decree legitimizing him will be the final piece in resolving that inner pain and angst - particularly when the memory that pains him the most is Robb telling him that he can never be Lord of Winterfell on account of his bastardy.

So that when Jon finally learns the truth, it will center on and revolve around people, around Lyanna, Rhaegar and Ned. About being Targaryen. About having Targaryen family in Dany and being Arya's cousin. And not center around his bastardy.

I feel like we are going to see, in order:

Jon Snow → Jon Stark → Jon Targaryen → Jon Snow

with the series ending with just plain old Jon Snow, both Stark and Targaryen.

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

Gosh I just love how Jon and Mel are paralleled in how they choose to ignore truths in relation to visions and prophecy because it’s a very interesting collision of two separate arcs: Jon’s - the deconstructed hidden prince/chosen one - and Mel’s - the deconstructed prophetess/wizard.

Like both are given the same information (i.e., that Jon may be the reincarnation of a legendary fiery-sword wielding hero) and both choose to deny the truth in this information because of one reason or the other: Jon has the tendency to ignore all the magical aspects in his life, mostly because he doesn’t want to be a super special magic boy, and Mel has already decided that the hero in question is some balding, middle-aged weirdo. But there exists a commonality between them since neither one knows of Jon’s true parentage, and so both think he’s just some random guy.

It’s very funny because we learn that Mel has been seeing visions of Jon every time she looks into her flames.

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again.

And we know that it’s been happening quite frequently because she gets another vision of Jon (in her POV chapter) and goes “oh god not him again!”

“What do you see, my lady?” the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow.

So poor Mel is a little frustrated because she’s not looking for Jon. She’s looking for Stannis because she believes that he is Azor Ahai.

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

So she looks for Azor Ahai and only sees Jon Snow, but she never once thinks “hmm it’s super frustrating to keep seeing this weird emo teen but maybe there’s something deeper to it. Like there has to be a reason why I see him in place of my king, right?” And then she talks to Jon in a later chapter and confirms that she is seeing him whenever she looks for Mance or Stannis, as per my previous post, and both of them come out of that conversation being the very definition of “no thoughts, head empty ”. They’re just not going to think about it; and both end up focusing on other aspects of the visions and not the larger theme.

And then there’s this conversation between Jon and Val (in Jon VIII, ADWD) that honestly encapsulates the sheer comedy of a powerful wizard who is sent by destiny to go find this magical prince and missing him, and how the magical prince in question gets really frustrated with the wizard because he thinks that the wizard’s visions are dumb and useless.

In this conversation, Val suggests that Mel may know about Jon switching Dalla’s and Gilly’s babies because of what she sees in her fires.

“And keep [Gilly’s baby] away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”

Val is essentially suggesting that Mel is attuned to the truth because of her prophetic insight. But Jon doesn’t think so.

Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”

He hopes Mel can see the truth of Arya’s whereabouts, but what he actually thinks is different. He dismisses Mel’s supposed truth as mere “ashes and cinders”. And it’s so funny because this is a huge miscommunication. Jon is no doubt thinking of Mel seeing “only snow” (we learn from a later chapter that this is the answer Mel always gives) but it seems so silly so he twists that into “ashes and cinders”.

But the problem starts with Mel, honestly. She isn’t able to understand that the king she finds in her fires is Jon Snow and so when she relays the information back to him, she does it in such a vague manner, so Jon thinks she means literal snow (like frozen water, that snow). Except Mel means Jon Snow. She sees Jon Snow in her fires but refuses to ponder further on why she should see him in place of Stannis.

There is such hilarity in a wizard going on a great quest to find a prophesied prince and failing because she at some point found this other guy and convinced herself that he was the prophesied hero all along, even though he didn’t fit at all. So when she is ultimately led to the prince she’s looking for, she mistakes him for some random guy even when her visions actually tell her, “No Mel, wait! This is your guy!! This is your king! Hello?!”

But then, even if she somehow got clued in on said random guy being the prophesied prince, it’s a little too late because he’s already mistrustful of her anyway and doesn’t take her seriously. So he ironically asks her, “have you seen the king in your fires?” And she says, “I’m seeing you when I search for the king”. And literally neither one of them goes, “hey wait a minute?!”

And you know what’s even more frustrating? Some completely unrelated person somehow manages to get to the truth of the matter! (Sort of…). Val somehow manages to understand that what Mel sees is true. In fact, Val is even more correct than she realizes because when Jon dismisses Mel’s visions as “ashes and cinders”, Val counters that with:

“Kings and dragons.”

Oh!

So, according to Val, not only can Mel see the truth, but she can also see the truth of who is a king and/or a dragon.

The king Mel sees is also a dragon, as he is one of the last surviving Targaryens in the world. Where Jon dismisses Mel’s visions, Val somehow takes the narrative’s voice here and goes “oh it’s not just Snow she sees, she also sees that he is a king and a dragon”.

As if this wasn’t comedic enough, Jon gets a vision towards the end of the book that literally connects the dots.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she’d appeared.

- Jon XII, ADWD

He dreams of himself as the fire-sword wielding hero Mel has been so crazy about, and then he wakes up to his pet bird calling him “KING” basically affirming everything Mel has been seeing throughout the entire book. And he does the most Jon Snow thing imaginable. He completely ignores it! We get zero commentary to this, same as we got zero commentary from him then Mel said that she saw him every time she tried to look for Mance or Stannis.

Really, both the chosen one and the great wizard are failing quite miserably. They get information much in the same way (Jon gets a prophetic dream, and Mel gets her prophetic visions) but they both decide to ignore whatever they’re seeing. The chosen one is annoyed that the wizard’s visions are useless, the wizard is annoyed that the totally-normal-boy-who’s-definitely-not-the-chosen-one-not-like-Stannis-is-anyway isn’t listening to her, and poor Val is off to the side going “hey, doesn’t anyone else think its important that Mel really does see kings and dragons?!!”

And honestly, Mel’s inability to get it even when the answer is right in front of her becomes even funnier when we take this exchange into account:

[…] all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, “It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”

“He stands before you,” Melisandre declared, “though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes.”

- Samwell IV, ASOS

I- 😭

Mel accuses Maester Aemon of being too blind to see the truth, not knowing that the narrative has damned her as well. Unlike Aemon, she has actually set her eyes on the promised prince but she’s the one who has been too blind to see.

[esther-dot]

Ned was there when Lyanna died in Tower of Joy. He even fought with the guards of Rhaegar to meet with his sister. Yet Ned never think bad about Rhaegar. Oberyn and Doran were shown to have no single thought on Rhaegar humiliating their sister Elia. Only Brandon was shown to be angry for what Rhaegar did to Lyanna. I mean Ned had more thoughts on how Joffery is bad news for Sansa but no thought on Rhaegar. Is grrm deliberately doing this? If these three guys have shown their anger towards Rhaegar then maybe readers will see him a bad news. I think grrm is hiding Rhaegar and Lyanna story for Jon parentage to not get reveal early. 🤔

(continuation of this convo)

I think about this a lot too, anon. For some reason it was Oberyn who really came to mind during this chain of asks, and to my lizard brain, the omission of anger towards Rhaegar feels like an oversight on the author's part or evidence that he doesn't take the issue with Rhaegar that I do. That’s a thought that’s hard for me to even entertain as someone who has hated men for committing lesser crimes against my little sister! Obviously it makes sense to hate the perp and architect of Elia’s death and focus on them as they are alive, but Rhaegar is the one who kickstarted the events that led to Elia’s death, so ya know, hate.

As for Ned, I think this was the only quote that (to me) felt like Ned having an opinion about Rhaegar:

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not. (AGOT, Eddard IX)

And initially, maybe it does read like Rhaegar is being favorably contrasted with Robert. But if we opt to not assume we're to form a conclusion about Rhaegar's character from this, and instead see it as the author revealing more of the truth to us, it is clearly Martin telling us, Rhaegar wasn't given to fits of passion/lust that would send him to a brothel or say, lead him to abduct and rape a girl. Martin wants us to know that what Robert believes is the story, isn't.

That doesn't mean we're being told this is a love story though!

As more info about Rhaegar is revealed we find that learning something totally altered him, that he became wholly absorbed with the prophecy/his fate. His single-mindedness in pursuit of that meant he personally transformed from a bookworm to a warrior. That certainly leaves the door open for us to imagine he’d do other things, even bad things, outside his typical behavior.

So I’d say this is less about Ned’s feelings about Rhaegar, and more, the author trying to guide us in understanding him, telling us this guy wasn’t really distracted from his purpose. Of course it makes no sense for Ned to have that thought about a man if he believed that man kidnapped and repeatedly raped his sister. It really doesn’t. However, it does work as a hit that Robert's version of events isn’t the whole story. There are occasionally lines that I don't think fit the POV perfectly and seem more like the author inserting a thought which means I hesitate to read too much into Ned's feelings there. IMO, this is primarily something the author was wanting to impress upon as as foundation for a later revelation about Rhaegar wanting another child for his three heads of the dragon stuff.

But here's another Rhaegar mention in Ned's next chapter:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years. (AGOT, Eddard X)

and when we pair it with this reference:

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark. (AGOT, Eddard XV)

It is clear that there are victims to Rhaegar's actions, that other's suffer as a result of his choices, that these actions may have been pleasing to him "tower of joy," "urged his horse past his own wife," but we can read the horror in them, "for Ned it was a bitter memory," "all the smiles died."

So, even when I'm surprised at the lack of venom these men have for Rhaegar whose choices set everything into motion, and don’t think it makes sense for Ned to think of him as he does, even in the most Rhaegar-favorable reading of this we can come to, it isn't the case that we're meant to brush aside the cost of Rhaegar’s choices. It's simply that, I'm such a this or that person, I see the cost and decide Rahegar is trash, Martin is a this and that person. He can still sympathize, even finds some real tragedy (it seems) in the life/death of such a man. I mean, I still call scumbag, idiot, statutory rapist at a minimum, but I’m trying not to project.

Rhaegar could have had his reasons and believed what he was doing was right, but clearly, he was wrong. Wrong about the prophecy, wrong to prioritize chasing that rather than taking practical steps to protect the realm, wrong to implode a girl’s life when she was too young to understand all the ramifications or in a position to refuse his advances. And of course, wrong to humiliate Elia, wrong to betray a woman who had done nothing, nothing to deserve such treatment. Rhaegar was so so wrong to think that his unstable father would be able to hold everything he had fucked up together.

And yet, we have disinterest where we would expect hatred. I guess that’s why your last point is the one to hold onto:

I think grrm is hiding Rhaegar and Lyanna story for Jon parentage to not get reveal early.

Martin wants it to have impact with the reader when they finally get the confirmation of R+L=J, so everything Ned is permitted to think/feel is curtailed by what the author is willing/unwilling to divulge. That’s small comfort, but I’ll take it!

[janiedean]

I read your metas on why you think GRRM always meant for Bran to be KITN, not King of the 7K as per what he told Benioff and Weiss during their decades-long intimate working relationship on the show adaptation and I have to say I disagree lol. I don't really understand how someone can think that Benioff and Weiss were told 'yeah Jon sits the throne and the irrelevant 8 year old fourth son of the Stark family becomes KITN' and D and D were like, 'ummm no we're going to blow our legacy by putting BRAN of all characters on the IT, and not giving our fan favorite character his shining moment on the IT.' I don't like Bran as King and neither did D and D, but they had to maintain that GOT was some semblance of an adaptation so they had to use Martin's endgames. It blows my mind that people still deny this. I do think the north being independent and Sansa being QITN was fanservice tho. She will likely be Lady of Winterfell, not queen. Anyone that thinks she ends her story in the Vale is deeply unserious.

Jon's a chosen one deconstruction because once he finds out about his parentage, it's not going to be a good thing that gives him a renewed sense of self like in the thousands of other chosen one fantasy arcs. It will be a devastating revelation for him and cause a very negative identity crisis. Also, his parentage was always meant to be a red herring, why do you think GRRM set it up in a way that there is literally no way for Jon to prove he's actually R and L's son? Much less prove he's a legitimate son born from a valid, legal marriage? I don't think anyone outside of Jon's very close inner circle will ever know the truth about who his real parents are, it's not something he will want to ever be made known lmao. The show conflating Jon with YG, not adapting YG, and basically being a Jon Snow is So Great Fanservice vehicle in the last few seasons has made the fandom think that's where his arc is leading, it's not. Not that GRRM will ever publish another book, but anyway.

Also, Jon is not AA, it is Dany. The thing is.....that's not a good thing lol. The AA prophecy is basically prophesizing the coming of Khal Stalin, not a savior lmao. That's the twist and the double edge sword with prophecies that is so very Martin. The constant debates among the fandom as to who is AA is so hilarious because they fundamentally don't understand that it's a negative prophecy. The dramatic irony of house targ thinking they need to bring about the AA prophecy to save humanity when in actuality they are unleashing a new evil that needs to be defeated is deeply delicious dramatic irony. But the fandom is too bogged down into the most basic fantasy tropes to see it and refuses to acknowledge that GRRM is cynically deconstructing these tropes. Almost as if he's trying to say that being the son of the crown prince actually sucks and will make the supposed 'chosen one's' life hell, the ethereal looking princess with the sympathetic backstory is actually an authoritarian tyrant who's bloody conquest for the iron throne using her hordes of brainwashed killing machines will cause destruction not restore some great dynasty, and the 'broken' disabled boy with special mind powers who is able to look into all of history to learn from the mistakes of all the monarchs that came before him is the 'best' ruler for a 'broken' realm.

I'm uuuuh, gonna try and reply to this as briefly as I can but like with the premise that everyone can agree or disagree with anything and text interpretation can't be set in stone until like the entire thing is over... in order

I don't really understand how someone can think that Benioff and Weiss were told 'yeah Jon sits the throne and the irrelevant 8 year old fourth son of the Stark family becomes KITN' and D and D were like, 'ummm no we're going to blow our legacy by putting BRAN of all characters on the IT, and not giving our fan favorite character his shining moment on the IT.'

anon I don't wanna sound rude but.... they lit set jon up to kill the night king and then made arya of all ppl do it NONSENSICALLY just to make ppl surprised, they literally shat all over the entire text since S2 if not S1 already, just the robb storyline shows they didn't understand anything about the point of the red wedding which they said they WANTED to adapt and they basically made shit up since s4 onwards without anything making literal sense including making c*rsei the ultimate boss when there is no shred of text evidence she's that important and grrm is pissed with the ending so like... I can 100% think that both of them didn't gaf about what grrm had to say and just understood what they wanted to, also because we're talking abt the ppl who made stannis go agamemnon on shireen because they hated his ass when if shireen dies like that no way it's stannis ordering it by any shred of textual sense so I absolutely will say dnd didn't gaf about what grrm said and threw their legacy in the trash, that because.... everyone thought the finale was trash and they haven't had a gig like that since bc no one wants them after got, with good reason, so like ppl can say that because there is nothing dnd have done as showrunners that shows they gaf about the og text, end of story

I don't like Bran as King and neither did D and D, but they had to maintain that GOT was some semblance of an adaptation so they had to use Martin's endgames. It blows my mind that people still deny this. I do think the north being independent and Sansa being QITN was fanservice tho. She will likely be Lady of Winterfell, not queen. Anyone that thinks she ends her story in the Vale is deeply unserious.

except the jc endgame is obviously not the book endgame, lit no one's endgame except imvho jon's (hahaha) and possibly tyrion/davos is the actual book endgame and I'd like everyone to remember there's no shred of textual evidence rickon doesn't die in the books but anyway like... sorry but dnd not wanting to put jon on the IT for shock value (which is obvious since everyone expected it) and not giving bran kitn to give it to sansa so ppl who wanted her to be queen would be happy makes absolute sense to me, also like... again I'm not gonna go over it again bc you said you read the meta but: bran is a deconstructed version of a kingly arthurian archetype which by himself means that he has to become king while being disabled/in virtue of having lost his legs so like sorry but bran being king is absolutely in the text but no way it makes sense it's 7k since he's directly tied to his land and its magic same as the fisher king so......

Jon's a chosen one deconstruction because once he finds out about his parentage, it's not going to be a good thing that gives him a renewed sense of self like in the thousands of other chosen one fantasy arcs. It will be a devastating revelation for him and cause a very negative identity crisis

I agree and I wrote a longass meta about jon being a chosen one deconstruction but being AA/his inheritance absolutely does not rule out it being a deconstruction imvho

Also, his parentage was always meant to be a red herring, why do you think GRRM set it up in a way that there is literally no way for Jon to prove he's actually R and L's son?

howland reed was there when he was born and lyanna could have told him and ned they were married, also bran can lit travel in time and prove it/see it happen, but even if he's not legitimate wrt rhaegar it doesn't matter because in the book he's legitimate wrt robb's will so he's gonna get kitn title at some point even just for that but like... point is if howland reed corroborates it and he gets a pet dragon or smth and no one has reasons to disagree esp because they'll need to kill zombies whether r/l were married doesn't matter at all

Much less prove he's a legitimate son born from a valid, legal marriage? I don't think anyone outside of Jon's very close inner circle will ever know the truth about who his real parents are, it's not something he will want to ever be made known lmao. The show conflating Jon with YG, not adapting YG, and basically being a Jon Snow is So Great Fanservice vehicle in the last few seasons has made the fandom think that's where his arc is leading, it's not. Not that GRRM will ever publish another book, but anyway.

we can't know about wrt grrm publishing something else or not but again: howland reed knows and he's still around and kicking and there is no reason for people to not make it known especially when it comes out and they have to treat with dany, also the show conflated young griff with both jon and cersei and jon connington with jorah and daenerys which makes no sense whatsoever so like that argument holds zero water bc they didn't know what they were doing and it shows

Also, Jon is not AA, it is Dany. The thing is.....that's not a good thing lol. The AA prophecy is basically prophesizing the coming of Khal Stalin, not a savior lmao. That's the twist and the double edge sword with prophecies that is so very Martin.

anon the second maester aemon said on page AA is daenerys out loud it went out of the window, the way asoiaf prophecies are structured everyone who's rumored to be X by other people/themselves before it actually happens won't be that, and jon only ever was deemed a candidate by a vision melisandre had... which she immediately discarded bc she didn't understand what the hell her own god was telling her so sorry but I don't agree and it's not gonna happen

The constant debates among the fandom as to who is AA is so hilarious because they fundamentally don't understand that it's a negative prophecy. The dramatic irony of house targ thinking they need to bring about the AA prophecy to save humanity when in actuality they are unleashing a new evil that needs to be defeated is deeply delicious dramatic irony. But the fandom is too bogged down into the most basic fantasy tropes to see it and refuses to acknowledge that GRRM is cynically deconstructing these tropes. Almost as if he's trying to say that being the son of the crown prince actually sucks and will make the supposed 'chosen one's' life hell, the ethereal looking princess with the sympathetic backstory is actually an authoritarian tyrant who's bloody conquest for the iron throne using her hordes of brainwashed killing machines will cause destruction not restore some great dynasty, and the 'broken' disabled boy with special mind powers who is able to look into all of history to learn from the mistakes of all the monarchs that came before him is the 'best' ruler for a 'broken' realm.

anon I don't even disagree with all of this but:

i do not think that in any way shape or form jon is not AA - there is no way he's not, he's lit the only one who actually came back to life in the show if we wanna show truth and there's no other character who lit resurrected and no one else will so there's that, he died according to the prophecy and no one in text would ever put a cent on AA being him, like.,........ what we know is not what they do and for westeros jon snow is the least likely candidate soooo like sorry but I don't think it makes sense that anyone else is AA, you can think it's dany but idt there's a chance in hell

I think the evil is already there and it's zombies, like... ik the show made it look like the long night was nothing but it's the actual ultimate big bad so there's no need for AA to be another evil, rhaegar would have misunderstood the og prophecy well enough as it is without getting that far

jon being the chosen one and AA would still make his life hell

idt dany is written in the book as an authoritarian tyrant and idt it's where she's headed and I'm saying it as someone who doesn't gaf about dany and doesn't care either way but the show version was just ridiculous and nothing in the text says she's headed there whatsoever

I also agree this fandom cannibalizing itself over who is AA is ridiculous... because it's jon and there's no reason to further argue over that ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

bran can absolutely be the best ruler for a broken realm,..... the north, which has been mauled and will be further mauled by the zombies, and it makes no sense he is 7k anyway given his background and stuff, again you can disagree with it as you want but idt anything that happened in the show except an extremely selected amount of things which are absolutely out of context has a chance in hell of happening in the books and from the way grrm reacted to the finale it seems obvious to me, then... again you can agree or disagree with me but I wrote so much meta on the topic I honestly feel like I'd be rehashing myself over and over if I went about it again but like

of course everyone believes in their own interpretation but there's no way I'm gonna be swayed by any argument agains kitn!bran and 7k!jon who then abdicates and goes to the wildlings by anything that's not grrm publishing ados and writing differently, godspeed and that's mvho ;)

[greenhikingboots]

GreenHikingBoots on AO3

*Updated 1/24/2023* Pre-Cannon Collection A Boy in His Cups: A drunk Jon Snow, with full knowledge of the truth about his parents, attempts to convince Sansa Stark to be his lady wife. (Word Count: 5,925) Maiden in the Tower: While playing a game in the godswood, Sansa decides to teach Theon in a lesson in humility by choosing Jon to bestow with her maiden’s kiss. A story inspired by pre-canon theories. (Word Count: 2,334) That’s a Pretty Name: While dancing, Jon receives a lecture from Sansa on the importance of complimenting ladies when he first meets them. Inspired by canon quotes. (Word Count: 971) Howland Reed Makes It Happen / Political Marriage Fics Like a Winter Storm: With the Long Night behind them, it is time for Sansa and Jon to decide if they’ll marry or not. (Word Count: 3,823) Because of You: Jon learns the truth about his parentage while Sansa is at Dragonstone as his emissary. When she returns, she brings the Dragon Queen with her as well as bad news. (Word Count: 1,428) An Itchy Back and a Jar of Salve: In the middle of the night, Sansa needs help applying a salve to relieve the itching sensation all across her back. She tells herself not to go to Jon, but ends up in his solar anyway. A vulnerable, intimate, life-changing conversation follows. (Word Count: ) More of an Effort: After the truth about Jon’s parentage comes to light, Sansa agrees to marry him for the sake of the North. But it isn’t until they’ve retaken Winterfell that she finds the courage make more of an effort in the relationship. A political marriage story. (Word Count: 3,809) Out of Desire: After her friend Jeyne applies a bit of pressure, Sansa admits the full extent of her feelings for Jon, her new husband and the King in the North. (Word Count: 1,201) Wait and See: The truth about his parentage has been revealed across all of Westeros, Jon just doesn’t know it yet. All he knows when he wakes in his chambers at Castle Black, his memories jumbled and incomplete, is that he feels a deep connection with the woman taking care of him — the woman with auburn hair braided down her back. (Word Count: 3,899) 21st Century Westeros

Inevitable: Right as Jon’s on the brink of falling for Sansa, she complicates matters by asking for his help with a scheme. Take her to prom? Act like he wants to be more than friends? Watch as her scummy ex-boyfriend’s ego implodes? Sounds great. He just hopes he can keep his real feelings, the ones he’s still trying to make sense of, hidden throughout the process. (Word Count: 75,013) A Good Chance: Everyone realizes Jon has feelings for Sansa before he does, including his girlfriend Val. (Word Count: 7,953)

Crossing the Threshold: When there's not enough room in Robb's car for everyone to have their own seat, Sansa chooses Jon's lap over Theon's. A Modern AU, drunk confession of feelings fic. (Word Count: 1,578) As Content as Can Be: Jon and Sansa, who have been doing the 'riends with benefits thing while away at college, agree to “act normal” while home for the holidays. When Rickon invites Jon over for a snow day tradition, they find it difficult to stick to the plan. (Word Count: 1,088) About Damn Time: Sansa receives a simple but thoughtful gift from Jon on her twenty-first birthday. (Word Count: 914) Miscellanies / Canon Divergence Waiting Patiently to be Found: During his first night at Dragonstone, Jon wakes with a jolt. His long hidden memories come back to him in a rush, making eerie sense of dreams which have haunted him for years. In an attempt to comfort himself, he imagines Sansa by his side, listening as he explains what he overheard that day, long ago, in Winterfell’s crypts. (Word Count: 4,691) A Safe Stranger: “The owner of the Mole’s Town brothel has a gift for him. Nineteen and still a maiden, they say. And the prettiest thing in all the Seven Kingdoms.” Mix of books and show and fanfiction nonsense. (Word Count: 1,352) Mighty Better Love Dreams: As Sansa’s suspicions about Jon’s parentage increase, her romantic interest in him does to. Meanwhile, Jon tries to convince himself his feelings for Sansa are of a different quality than they really are. Part 1, Mighty Love, is Sansa’s POV. Part 2, Better Dreams, is Jon’s POV. (Word Count: 11,690 + 13,398 = 25,088) *Insider Tip* This series can also be read in the following order: ML1, BD1, ML2, BD2, ML3, and BD 3. 

[woahjo]

everyone is fighting wars and shit and then bran is on some mystical journey and chatting with a man in a tree LOL

joke’s aside, i like bran’s story a lot. it’s super connected to the lore of the GOT universe and that makes it interesting, plus, i care about him as a character (gotta love the starks). all that being said, i think where it falls short is that it can feel SO disconnected from what everyone else is doing. i mean ofc he’s connected (three eyed raven and all that), but his journey feels very independent to sansa or arya or jon’s journey. he encounters comparatively fewer characters in the story, so we kind of lose that really cool sense of “everything is connected” for a while.

his personal journey is interesting for sure and learning about the magic present in the north through him is a good way to introduce the history of the godswood and magic and stuff, but there’s a distinctive lack of the “game of thrones”, if that makes sense. in fact, i’d argue that he’s the only stark who isn’t obviously playing it for the majority of the show (this isn’t to say that it isn’t revealed in the later seasons that he IS), which disconnects him almost entirely from the main narrative.

bran makes his journey north, becomes a greenseer, and manipulates the past to preserve himself (and his family), but his story feels largely disconnected from the main arc until he discovers the truth about jon snow’s parentage (among a few other things).

all this being said, i’m only at the end of season 4 of my rewatch, but this is just what i’m noticing about it the second time around after many years. and i DO remember liking the payoff of realizing bran has had a hand in his own fate (and the fates of those around him) the entire time, so i’m not knocking that (and maybe i’ll change my mind when i see it again). i can appreciate the build of suspense as he makes his journey north and then the satisfaction of finally understanding the specifics of what has happened.

anyway, all this to say that i think what i feel is missing in bran’s story, at least through the middle, is the sense of interconnectivity the character’s actions tend to have. the whole series has this “butterfly effect” sense to it through practical means, but bran’s actions throughout the beginning of the story and on his journey seem to happen largely within a vacuum (when compared to the other characters). it isn’t until there is an ACTUAL butterfly effect that we begin to feel just how interconnected bran is to the rest of the story, which has great payoff but can kind make you furrow your brow when we see his group trudging through the snow again towards the middle of the series (to me, even the bolton’s going after him felt super disconnected for some reason lol).

anyway those are my two cents on this very very old subject even though no one asked. take it with a grain of salt though, i’ve forgotten a LOT of the main series since i haven’t watched the show all the way through since the finale aired on cable haha

[vivacissimx]

Hello! How do you think Jon would react when he is told the truth about his parentage? Who do you think will tell him? And how do you think his feelings regarding Ned would change? Have a lovely day!

I think it's a foregone conclusion at this point that Jon is going to learn about his parentage at some point, there are a lot of theories regarding the specifics but personally I'd be very surprised if he learned it from anyone other than Howland Reed.

Couple reasons however I think it's fair & important to note that Jon always had a father. Ned Stark raised him & while Jon's evolving feelings on him/Northern politics in general diverge from the complete admiration he once had for Ned, it's not a rejection of Eddard Stark the Father. Jon's growing empathy for other peoples (whether across class or regional lines within the Night's Watch itself to the wildlings to women) includes an empathy for Ned--this allows him to take the best of what Ned taught him and yet make decisions that Ned would not have made. He's understanding of the difficult positions his dad has been in and perhaps even the sacrifices made. When he doesn't go South to join Robb, when he rejects Stannis' offer, it's a symbolic break from Starkhood although the love for his family remains.

No, Jon's never lacked a father. He's always wanted a mother.

This is where Howland Reed ties in, he's just so connected to Jon's origin story--not only present but involved in Lyanna's moment as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, present at the Tower of Joy when Lyanna makes Ned promise to care for Jon (presumably). Howland told stories of Lyanna & Harrenhal to his children who tell them to Bran. Howland, interestingly, spent a whole season with the green men on the Isle of Faces in the God's Eye by Harrenhal, which is a winky nudgey type of thing because the mythos of that region is rich in Old Gods/Stark/Targaryen connections. Ex. Rhaegar & Lyanna ofc, Daemon Targaryen's 13 slashes in the Harrenhal weirwood that bleed in spring, Addam Velaryon's supposed audience with the green men before sacrificing himself for Rhaenyra's cause, Rhaena Targaryen the ghost of Harrenhal➡Arya Stark the ghost of Harrenhal, Nymeria's wolfpack in the area, proximity to the Trident & the Inn of the Kneeling Man where Torrhen supposedly bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror, Dark Sister the sword being lost beneath the water for a generation (Dark Sister in the current timeline likely being lost beyond the Wall).

Howland is also the one of the guys Robb sent a letter to legitimizing Jon & naming him the heir. Yes I know Jon rejected being named a Stark at Stannis' hands but Robb is very different to Stannis. Howland's children are lost beyond the Wall. GRRM has said we're getting Howland at some point. I believe it's for the purpose of telling Jon about R+L=J.

I'd predict that knowing about Lyanna is what will really affect Jon, given that a) he's been shown to admire women who remind him of Arya & Arya/Lyanna parallels are weaved throughout the books, b) that she did genuinely love him, she didn't abandon him, and c) Ned Stark loved him as a son by choice rather than simply being a stain on his honor.

Jon reacts to many a thing with frustration, by internalizing his feelings and being stubborn but he feels & loves deeply. Empathy and affection motivate him. Hearing some variation of this:

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it.

[AGOT, Eddard I]

How can this not hurt!! It has to. It would rip me apart! It also heals though. Jon isn't the petulant teenager he started the series as, he's harder and he's made sacrifices too. ADWD Jon willing to throw any honor he might have had to the wind, to remain a bastard, to break his vows, for the sake of what he loves & considers bigger than himself. How do you think Jon will feel to learn that the people who made him who he is were faced with similar impossible circumstances, that they paid the highest prices & the only way to mourn/celebrate their lives is to rejoice in the fact that he, himself, is still alive??? It's torture but it's also so beautiful because it's something he's always wanted. Never thought he would get.

It's a personal revelation, is what I'm getting at, a bittersweetness. I believe there's a relief in knowing. Freedom in understanding. I do see moments of resentment creeping in (Jon is a human being bro) but ultimately he will make peace with this & that it will help him to accept love more easily from others (something he has difficulty doing).

About Ned... this is kind of another question, there is a grappling to be had if he links up with Daenerys about the Rhaegar/Ned picture. They're coming from opposite ends of the bridge on this one. Here is where I think the classic coming of age trope of 'realizing your parents/idols are people too' will happen. Ultimately this duo has to succeed where their predecessors failed, right? Doing that means leaving behind a lot of baggage, no matter how justified your personal attachment to them is

I want Jon to be able to say "I made the best decisions I could. Nobody else did it for me. Thank you to everyone who influenced me & taught me something, I hold you close to my heart and I've got it from here." That's ideally the place Jon learning about his parents brings him closer to, for me as a Jon Snow Enjoyer.

& if you want more I humbly offer the fic I wrote about this very identity reveal 🥰

[la-pheacienne]

Do you think in Winds of Winter we might get the reveal of Jons parentage? With the TV show its not really a secret anymore and I'm dying to get at least more internal monogue by Jon about Lyanna/Rhaegar (even if he doesnt it yet). GRRM doesnt have to hide it too much anymore

IF WE EVER GET THE BOOKS WHICH I SERIOUSLY DOUBT, yes I think it will be revealed in Winds of Winter. Because this revelation is too big to be reserved for the last book. I mean, a lot of questions to be answered. How is it gonna be revealed? By whom? When? Is the whole story gonna be revealed or just the parentage? I think that probably the parentage will be revealed first and Jon will still be left thinking that his father raped his mother for some time and then somehow he will find out about who Rhaegar really was. And that's not simple, there will be a lot of angst there. Then when he learns everything and gets to know who his father really was, then he will have to deal with the trauma, obviously, and he also needs to come to terms with the fact that he's a Targaryen, which is not a simple thing. I don't agree with the take where Jon will be completely indifferent to this, no he won't, lol. That was just the stupid show. Jon carries Rhaegar's legacy, he's his only surviving son, and Rhaegar was a great man who had a terrible and unfair end, and that will traumatise and influence Jon a lot.

I also don't agree with the take where Jon will have a Reboot once he finds out and that he will become a full blown dragon, no guys, respectfully, he won't. Jon is Ned Stark's son. You may not like it, but that's literally facts. He's a Stark, raised in the North. Every single time he has a dilemma he thinks "what would Ned do". In the book, not in the show. So I believe the truth would be in the middle, but I'm not a storyteller, I can't give you the exact situation. That's GRRM's job.

I believe that Jon is a man of duty, like Rhaegar and Ned, and that his feelings for his parentage will always be dictated by his sense of duty. That's where the prophecy comes into play. If he is TPTWP, then his Targaryen nature will definitely play a big part, one way or another. He will try to find a way like Rhaegar tried. He will feel that as a Targaryen and probably TPTWP, he has an even bigger responsibility. The problem is that I have not yet decided if it's him or Dany, but Jon/Dany stans, DON'T come at me with any hate over this. My take is that I DON'T KNOW.

Bottom line : I have no idea what will happen but I would absolutely love to read that story.

[reginarubie]

So I saw you’re accepting prompts and I was wondering if you would write a small modern prompt for a rare pair I have- Brandon Stark/ Elia Martell?

I was thinking that they see each other at the Jonsa wedding and realize that they had an affair right around the time of her divorce or he was her first after the divorce! Or maybe he’s what gave her the courage to ask for a divorce? And they meet at Jon and Sansa wedding after all these years and the spark is still there? And maybe Elia accidentally catches the bouquet?

If you’re not gonna interested no worries! I just wanted to throw this out into the void and see. Thanks!

Hi!,

sorry for the long wait and that is actually an awesome prompt!, so I've tried my hand at it and hope you enjoy it as much as you hoped to when you sent out this ask!

So, I went with Elia and Brandon meet when Elia is still married to Rhaegar the douchebag, but in the end they get together after they meet again at the Jonsa wedding and the spark is still there.

And I’ve got no excuse [it’s a little crime]

Elia watches Lyanna’ son as he dances with his wife, the Stark girl. When she had discovered the extent of Rhaegar’ infidelity she had been devastated, utterly ruined. She had taken the kids and left Dragonstone — which had been their lovenest for as long as she could remember — and she had flew on the first flight back to Sunspear.

She had told neither Doran nor Oberyn the real reason behind her sudden visit, she had just told them she had missed home and had taken the kids to the Water Gardens, their summertime villa, where she had spent most of her childhood. 

Aegon had been six and Rhaenys had been nine. Her beloved children. She hadn’t learned of Jon’s birth long after it had happened, Lyanna had wrapped it all up secretly, not wishing her children to be ruined by the truth of their father’s incapacity to keep it in his pants. She had basically isolated herself and chose for her and her child a single-mom working double life all to avoid disrupting her children’s life. 

Lyanna, as far as Elia knew, had been unaware of Rhaegar’s family. She hadn’t known the truth until one day she happened upon an old newspaper that had shown them just after Rhaenys had been born when Rhaegar had tried to run for Prime Minister what felt like an age ago. By then Lyanna had already been pregnant with Jon, and she had started some digging — Rhaegar had yet known nothing about the boy — the internet was an amazing means to discover the past people would rather keep private. 

She had broken off with Rhaegar and flown back to her homeland, the North, where she had chosen a unimpressive life over the life she could’ve had if she went to the newspaper with the truth of Jon’s parentage; she could’ve created a scandal, lived off of it, and ensuring her son had a part into the not negligible sum Jon could — should — be part of as Rhaegar’s child. 

Which was why Elia could never be upset with Lyanna for the part she had played in destroying her marriage to Rhaegar. If anything she was thankful to the woman for the lengths she had gone to, to protect children not her own from the damage the truth could do them. 

Still, truth had a way to come to the surface, and years after Jon had been born Rhaegar had come across them during a visit North. Elia was still uncertain on how that actually happened and a big part of her suspected that Rhaegar had actually purposefully searched for Lyanna, possibly with the intention of rekindling their relationship now that his marriage to Elia was on rocky ground. Still, Rhaegar had discovered Jon and of course, Elia who was the one who managed most of the income of the business Rhaegar had created since abandoning his political dream had started to notice how a fund had suddenly be created separately. 

It had taken some digging — perhaps not all exactly legal — for to find that the accountholder of the fund had been a boy named Jon Snow, and that, until he came of age the only two people who could have access to the fund were Rhaegar and the boy’s mother, Lyanna. 

At that point, putting together one and one hadn’t been so difficult, and Elia had sent the kids to their grandmother Rhaella for an afternoon when finally she had decided to confront her husband. 

It had been nothing short of explosive and by the evening Rhaegar had left home slamming the door behind himself not to be heard of again — possibly hiding out at his best friend’s house or at some flame — Elia had known of his affairs for years, but they had never resulted in a child and he had never been caught dirty-handed so she had hoped she had grown simply paranoid. 

Instead now she discovered he had a child from another woman, born out of wedlock and whilst they had been (at the time) at the strongest in their relationship, short after the birth of their second child, Aegon.

So Elia had decided that a change of air was much needed and had packed up the children and left as she decided what she wanted to do with the information she had discovered and if leaving her husband definitely would damage her children more than remaining with him. 

She had not been ready to face Lyanna Snow, so she had run away, though she had soon learned that the woman knew nothing of the fund having been opened on her son’s behalf, so it stood to reason she had not been bought off to silence. 

And it had been during her two months stay in Sunspear that she had met him. 

Brandon Stark — surprisingly the uncle of the bride, small world — he was younger than her and full of life and promise. He was earnest and forthcoming and he clearly had a crush on her. 

Elia had been twenty-eight and he had been twenty-three in Sunspear exploring after he had abandoned his studies at college. He had been surfing when Elia had taken the children to the beach. 

He had actually met Aegon first, as her son had all but begged him to see his surfing board as Elia had been sunbathing with Rhaenys. She had been so lost in her own thoughts that she had been alerted of a stranger presence in her space only when he had — with his quite impressive mole — shadowed the sun from her and Elia had found herself face to face with her lanky tanned, violet-eyed and silver-haired son and his new friend, a quite muscular and handsome young man with long dark hair held back in a bun, sun-kissed skin and shining brown-grey eyes.

And… alright, he had been drenched, salt and water still sticking to his chest, droplets of seawater still running down his  chiseled abs. 

Hello there, he had greeted her, I have a feeling this rascal might be yours. 

Aegon had kept begging Elia to let him learn some surfing with the newcomer and Elia had not had the heart to deny her son something he had seemed so passionate about — and in retrospect she had done well as surfing was now her son’s life and full-time job. He had moved permanently to Dorne for that.

She and Brandon had circled around each other for weeks before he had asked her out to dinner. Elia had told him she was married and his reply had been A pity really, but he had not walked away, he had even invited the children to tag along and as her kids had been running wild on too much sweets and too many triggers with the rides around the seafront, they had found themselves talking and, for the first time since having discovered of Jon, Elia had confided in someone the truth. 

Brandon had been furious — had, had half a mind to just find Rhaegar out and start a good fistfight — and then he had cocooned the perfect way to take her out on a date. 

He had even enlisted the children’s help — Rhaenys mostly as she was the oldest and eerily aware of how broken things had become between her parents — and he had convinced her to accompany him to an exhibition of one of her favorite artists. 

When Elia had gone out with him, she had discovered the exhibition was not at eleven a.m. as he had anticipated, but that it was instead at three p.m., Brandon had grinned at her unrepentant and had started to take her around, he had even introduced her to some of his friends and brought to a meeting of ex-college activists. 

It had been sweet and when finally they had left the exhibition Brandon had been all giddy. Have I convinced you, yet?, Elia had rolled her eyes. 

It does not do wonders to my opinion of you, if you’ve cleverly brought me only where they would speak highly of you, she had teased, though you get points for cleverness, and, she had added, for the cravat. It must’ve been a nightmare for you, she had commented. 

A nightmare indeed.

Elia had been ready to return home by then, she was not a cheater, thank you very much, and she knew something was bound to happen if she entertained his silly crush — and hers — further.

She was flattered, really, but she had been not yet ready and especially she was still a married woman not yet decided on how to behave with her cheating husband, but that didn’t mean she had intention of stepping to his level by cheating back.

Yet, he had posed a fine argument, promising her the best gelato in all of Westeros and Elia had reminded him she was picky with her food and he had laughed, promising her it would be worth the hype. 

It had been. 

She had gone for simplicity. Mint and lemon and stracciatella. Nothing too elaborated and he had chosen instead pistacchio, nutella and cream — who knew he actually had such a sweet tooth? — they had sat on a bench seafront and ate in silence their gelato. 

Until he had asked — after she might have moaned a bit, though it was really that good — if she wanted a taste of his gelato. She had been so taken by the setting sun and her elation that she had accepted the offer. 

Brandon had fed her nutella gelato from his own spoon and Elia maybe was as guilty as he was of what happened next, because she could see it in her own mind happening before it did, and she still didn’t put a stop to it, when he leaned close and pressed his lips against hers to get a taste of his own gelato across her lips. 

Brandon kissed with the same passion with which he laughed. Fully, as if he put his whole being into the kiss. Elia had never been kissed that way, not even when she had been a young girl, so she may have leaned into the kiss herself. 

Yet, she had stopped it. 

It had been wrong. Brandon had understood, but it was also clear that he had been hurt over her rejection, even though he had kissed her temple and told her you are too good for this world, he doesn’t deserve you.

She had never seen Brandon again — though he and Aegon had kept in touch over the years and she knew Brandon had went to every single surfing contest Aegon had taken part in, to cheer him on — and the next week she had booked the flight back to Dragonstone and had decided to ask Rhaegar for a divorce. 

The divorce had been a nasty matter, but before anything else Elia had met with Lyanna over a tea. She had told her about the fund for Jon, and had told her she didn’t hold her — a teenager at the time — responsible for what had happened, since she had been unaware of Rhaegar’s family and then she had returned home, had sat her children down and had told them she and Rhaegar would part ways. 

It had taken them several courtroom meetings, and years after they finally reached an accord and signed the divorce papers. 

Elia had been thirty-three by the time she had become a divorced woman, with two teenagers solely to her custody. She had kept in touch with Lyanna, even though the other woman never touched a single penny from the fund Rhaegar had created for Jon, and finally Rhaenys and Aegon met their half-brother. 

When the time had come Jon had used it to further his instruction and then had given it for a series of charities.

Jon had been a sensible youth and Aegon had immediately hit off with him, as had Rhaenys. It never ceased to amaze her how easily her children had taken not only to the divorce but their brother as well, to the point Aegon was one of his best men and Rhaenys had asked Jon to be her best man beside Aegon at her own wedding. 

Elia couldn’t be prouder, and life had gone on. 

Lyanna had crooned on and on about Sansa Stark, the woman with whom Jon was in love. Elia had not made the connection until Brandon had walked in — still sunkissed, with short hair now, and crinkles at the corner of his sparkling grey eyes — during the rehearsal dinner and had swept his niece off her feet making her giggle. 

Brandon was no less handsome now that he had been at twenty-three, no less handsome in a surfing suit than he was in the formal suit he was wearing for his niece’s wedding. He might be now thirty-nine — and she forty-three going on forty-four — but his eyes still sparkled the same. 

Aegon had grinned at her, when Brandon had entered the restaurant, with that kind of grin that told her he had been aware all along that Brandon would be present. 

Whilst shortly after she had divorced Rhaegar both her children had been uneasy with the idea of her dating another man, they had been trying to push her to find someone with whom to spend her life. That her world didn’t need to end with Rhaegar Targaryen and her children. 

Still, despite knowing Brandon still met occasionally with Aegon, she had never entertained the idea of giving them a shot. He had been young and impressionable and he had a life full of adventure before himself, Elia had no intention neither of getting back in the game (so to speak) so fast after the divorce and she had not wish to chain him down to a life he might not want, so she had never reached out to him. 

Lyanna had taken care to have her sit with her and her new flame — Robert Baratheon, Call me Bobby B!,  — where she would be far enough from the family of the bride but still near enough the family of the groom.

You’re family, Lyanna had told her firmly. 

She could feel his gaze follow her whenever she went, she knew he was hyper aware of her — or perhaps she was the one hyper aware of him — still she had sternly refused to make eye-contact knowing she’d probably fall prey to his outstandingly shining eyes. 

Still, at one point, she had been left alone at the table — well not completely alone, Rhaenys had been there with her — and Brandon, who had circled around her table all night had moved for the kill. 

Stupidly handsome in his stupid suit. 

Rhaenys had easily made herself scarce then and Elia had played with the cake in her plate, suddenly without appetite. He was here, she was aware of nothing else, and he still was looking at her, yet Elia did not have the bravery to look at him, afraid she might not find him watching her with the same passion his eyes had held when he had kissed her, but merely with the fondness associated to an almost-lover. 

“Won’t you even look at me?,” he asked, his voice accusing and Elia’s eyes had snapped on him, when she did she suddenly realized he had been goading her because he smirked down at her and—

—no, the passion was most surely still there, behind his grey-brown orbs.

“And there she is,” he commented “the most beautiful woman in the world” he said sitting beside her and Elia had to bite her lip.

“I’d think the most beautiful woman in the world today ought to be your niece. The bride, you know?” 

Brandon had smiled “I’m sure my niece will understand,” he stated “afterall her husband has eyes only for her, I doubt she feels in any way unconfident right now” he shrugged “besides Sansa has never been one to not acknowledge the truth”

“You’re as flattering as you were back then,” she comments. 

“And twice as impertinent,” he nodded “I’m afraid age has done nothing to make me more sensible” Elia was almost about to ask him what he meant when he proffered a hand and tucked a strand of ink black hair from her face behind her ear, the ringlet had been framing her face for a while now “Besides, look who’s talking, you’re hardly less enticing than you were when we first met”

Elia couldn’t help herself, she broke out in a giggle “Well,” she commented “that is comforting, age has not beaten the enchantment out of me yet”

Apparently only then did Brandon understand his implication, he burst out laughing “See?,” he commented “I’m still as messy as before when trying to woo you”

Elia arched a brow “I seem to remember a quite proficient young man at wooying” 

Brandon cocked his head to the side “Is that why you never reached out to me? I was too good at wooing?, had I know I would've been terrible” he asked “after the divorce?” he specified.

“I—” she looked away from his enticing grey eyes “five years had passed, I assumed you might have forgotten me and… I didn’t want to—”

“Is that the salted caramel and pistacchio cake?,” Brandon interjected pointing to her untouched plate.

Elia frowned “Yes?”

One moment they were speaking about feelings and the next about which one of the two cakes Elia had ended up with. A whirlwind of a change of topic if she ever saw one. 

Brandon hummed took the fork from her hand and took a bite out of her slice of cake bringing it to her lips “Good,” he declared “a bit too much on the salty side for my tastes” he commented, Elia did not reply “you know what?” he asked as he took another bite off of it. 

“What?”

“I think I don’t care anymore about why you didn’t reach out to me,”  he stated and Elia almost felt like slapped, but then he smiled at her bright and unrepentant and asked “wanna a taste?” he asked, arching both his brows suggestively. 

Elia knew what he was asking now. 

She caught Lyanna’ gaze over Brandon’s shoulder and she almost laughed at her impression of having to fan herself because Brandon was hot before she gave her the thumbs up with such a bright smile. 

“Why not?,” she had replied, looking back into his eyes and he smiled, soft, tender wrinkles around the corner of his eyes that made him look even gentler than he actually was “after all I must hurry along, before my enchantment decreases with age” she teased him.

Brandon chuckled at that “Absolutely,” he said “you should absolutely hurry along and—”

This time it’s Elia who kisses him, in the middle of a wedding dinner, thankfully everyone is more involved in the bride and the groom than they are in the strange dornish woman in their midst kissing the one who was supposed to become lord but abdicated in favor of his younger sibling with the intention of exploring the world and never settle. 

Besides Aegon that was, who interrupted the kiss by grabbing Brandon’s shoulder and yanking playfully at it “Listen here, mister, who gave you the permission to kiss my mom that way hm?” 

Elia was halfway through a laugh when she saw Brandon pale in half a second before Aegon burst out laughing “Keep on,” he told them “but not where my eyes can see it, thank you and amen” he added, winking at her before addressing Brandon again “treat her right, or I will know” he added, his voice dangerously low. 

“Don’t take it the wrong way, love,” Brandon commented “but your children are terrifying,” he added as he caught Rhaenys’ gaze from the other side of the room as she stabbed pointedly her own cake beside her husband holding eye contact. 

Elia did burst out in a full laugh at that “You ought to be scared,” she said “they’ve learned that from me,” 

Brandon looked at her with stars shining in his eyes and Elia felt elated, as if she was on cloud nine “What?” she asked. 

“Nothing,” Brandon said “only hard to admit my old man was right. Good things take time, and patience”

Elia kissed him again then, sweetly this time. And it was the beginning of a new chapter in her life, who knew which wonders were hiding just behind the first page, awaiting to be discovered? She was sure Brandon would gladly explore them together in the years to come.

And if she happened to accidentally — it fell into her hands alright? — catch the bouquet when Sansa threw it, in the meantime almost falling into Brandon's awaiting arms when she stumbled a couple of steps back after the throw... well, maybe it was just fate nudging her in the right direction, wasn't it?, especially when Brandon's arms encircled around her waist as he muttered in her ear “You have the same scent of summertime and joy on you still, I missed it”

Twenty years later, they’re still discovering… they’re still exploring. And they’re still terrorizing Aegon with their shenanigans when he comes to visit and they are too lovey-dovey.  

Fin 

Hope you enjoyed that! It's short and sweet and I had so much fun writing it!

Thank you for the prompt and feel free to send as many prompt as you'd like to read! As always sending all my love ~G.

Ps. I might expand on this if any of you is interested? Rare pairs of ASOIAF, in any setting you might like!, I could make a series out of it too.

[rise-my-angel]

Thought about why the theory of Jon returning to life with red eyes white hair sucks: It means when Jon eventually learns the truth of his parentage, he will realize that the reason he looks just like a Stark is because he got everything of what he looks like from Lyanna. Hair and eyes included.

Meaning with that change, he will learn the truth about his mother, the one person he's always been desperate to know. But when he looks in the mirror, now gone are the features about him that were so distinctly from her. Now Jon looks in the mirror and instead of finally seeing his mother in his reflection for the first time, he will see nothing left about her in his face.

Jon will learn the truth but never be able to see his reflection and finally see his mother like he's always wanted too. And that's cruel.

[goodqueenaly]

What’s your best guess to what Jon’s being foreshadowed to find in the Winterfell crypts?

No more and no less than the truth about his parentage.

In Jon's dreams, the crypts of Winterfell seem to consistently symbolize the liminal position Jon has occupied within the Stark family. The crypts are a place where Jon does not belong, not only in his own mind but in the opinion (so far as the word can be used, perhaps) of the stone Stark kings there with him. After all, as Jon himself recounts to Sam, "I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place", while in a later dream the stone kings "mutter" that Jon is "no Stark" and that there "is no place for [him] here [i.e. in the crypts]". Yet Jon continually finds that he cannot refuse the unspoken call of the crypts: although he tells Sam about his dream-self's reluctance to proceed, as he is "afraid of what might be waiting for [him]", he always descends into the crypts anyway. In this very, indeed exclusively, Stark place, where Jon seems to not belong, there is nevertheless something - or, rather, someone - Jon has to find.

This conflict in Jon's dreams perfectly echoes Jon's still somewhat unconscious dynastic struggle. While Jon certainly knows - or, rather, believes - that he is the son of Lord Eddard Stark, and has grappled with the possibilities of claiming or asserting power in the name of his ostensible father, he is as yet unaware that Robb's will legitimated him, Jon, and named him heir presumptive to Robb's North-Riverlands kingdom. Jon's (assumed) paternal identity had been central to Robb's decision: he had asserted to Catelyn that "[m]y father had four sons", and when Catelyn shot back that "[a] Snow is not a Stark", Robb countered that Jon was "more a Stark than" his great-grandaunt Jocelyn's descendants in the Vale. Yet what Robb did not know, and of course could not have known, was that Jon was no (biological) son of Eddard Stark, but the (again. biological) son of the late Prince of Dragonstone by Ned's sister. So while Jon may have been named a Stark (and by a Stark king), he is by birth not just not a Stark, but in fact a Targaryen (or, at least, the son of a Targaryen father); now, though again he does not know it yet, Jon has both a claim to a Stark kingdom (and a Stark name) and the heritage of his non-Stark paternal ancestors.

So I believe that these dreams not only embody this conflict but foreshadow the resolution of it. Jon's dream-self saw the tombs of the dead Stark kings, but never reached the tomb most important to him personally - that is, the statue of his mother Lyanna. She is the connection Jon must discover between himself and the Starks, the Stark daughter who gave birth to him; he is no Stark by (patrilineal) name, but a scion of the family nevertheless. Just as Ned himself dreamed of finding Lyanna's tomb in the crypts and remembering the promise he made to her, and just as Bran dreamt of meeting his father in the crypts and discussing "something to do about Jon", so Jon's crypt dreams seem to suggest that the truth of Jon's parentage lies (literally as well as figuratively) in the crypts of Winterfell. (And is it coincidental that in virtually all instances of this dream, Jon recounts searching in vain for his "father", little knowing that his Targaryen biological father is the one with no place among the tombs of the Stark kings?)

To be clear, it's not that I think there is some kind of physical secret message in the tomb (much less something as ludicrous as a physical object representing some kind of secret message). Rather, what I imagine is that the crypts will be the setting for Jon to hear about and really learn the identities of his biological parents. Maybe Howland Reed (who undoubtedly knows and has been tantalizingly left alive but so far off page) tells him here, or maybe Bran (who has already seen two teasing references to Jon's true parentage, and has access to see even more via the weirwood time-space network) will reveal the truth to Jon here, or maybe even both; the point is that I think someone will fill Jon in as he is in the crypts (neatly bookending Eddard's first chapter the series, as he and Robert visited Lyanna's tomb and Ned remembered both her and Rhaegar).

[dragonsfromthemoon]

I kinda hope that when Jon learns the truth about his parentage that he harbors some anger towards Ned. Like I know Ned was a good man and father but he allowed his 14 year old “son” to go to a miserable hellhole where if he doesn’t die fighting, he’ll die of old age without a family. He let Jon think the NW is an honorable place when it was just a miserable prison. I want Jon to feel some anger for that.

Me too!