#denethor doesnt even Know……………..

[afaramir]

well. this morning on my commute i accidentally dropped 500 words worth of the beginnings of The Other Scenario for denethor and thorongil (impossible unresolved sexual tension for YEARS that culminates in the One single time that they fucked that did ruin both of them a bit). its a little bit i have one chance to freely-ish acknowledge that unfortunately i have come to care about you (not exclusive from hating your guts) its a little bit anticipatory grief its a lot classic denethorongil cheeky/cunty/horny its got everything. its set directly before the siege of umbar if you know what i mean hope this helps send post

[lesbiansforboromir]

Why do you think Aragorn as accepted as a King? They don't have blood tests to confirm his identity and he is not even from Gondor (was probally born here, but not raised)

Oh no Aragorn was not born in Gondor, canonically speaking he was born in the north amongst the northern dunadain and that is his cultural heritage. And not only that, Aragorn's claim to the throne is legally shakey at BEST. His only claim to the line of Meneldil (original King of Gondor after Anarion and Elendil's deaths) is through a female line, which used to be an accepted path to kingship in Numenor, but was since entirely discarded by both Gondor AND Arnor (so not even Aragorn's own direct ancestors agreed with letting women rule kingdoms) And a previous legal ruling on this PRECISE ISSUE decreed that Aragorn's ancestor DID NOT have a right to Gondor's throne. So yes it's a good question isn't it? There are two answers!

#1 Gondor is still a partial if not full theocracy. This is one of those aspects of the book that doesnt really make sense unless you understand all the character's actions through the lense of catholicism and religious faith in general. Aragorn is 'Estel' or 'hope', but when people say 'hope' in Middle-earth what they mean is faith etc.

In lotr meta-logic the divine right to rule is a real thing that actually exists, god (Eru) literally wants Aragorn to be king. The characters within the story are aware of this to varying degrees, Boromir being one of the few characters who properly disregards this and wishes to view Aragorn's claim on it's own merit. Even Denethor knows and understands that Aragorn is chosen by god, and he's very bitter and angry about it! (good for him). But in general, all other characters including all Gondorian lords are 'faithful' or 'elendili', and within this religion the only people who could be called 'priests', who can bridge the divide between man and god, are their Kings. So, religiously, if Aragorn IS sent by god to rule them, then they would be committing a kind of heresy to refuse him. And remember, god literally exists in Arda canonically and so therefore does sin and heresy, not just in a moral way but also in a literal like... fact of nature kind of way.

So when Aragorn arrives in Pelargir with an army of ghosts it gives Lord Angbor FAITH in him. When Gandalf, an angel literally doing god's will, is his friend and expressly supports his claim the other lords of Gondor also are inspired to have faith in him. Aragorn spends a good deal of time after the siege of minas tirith ticking divine checklists for 'guy who should be king', he is not making a legal argument for his right to the Gondorian throne, he is making a religious argument for his right to rule over the entire population of 'the faithful' which includes Gondor AND Arnor, destroyed or not.

There WOULD be discussion though! Not everyone in Gondor is dunadain and not everyone is faithful in the way that the dunadain are faithful. Culturally the northern and southern dunadain have been seperated for 3000 years and a lot of people would have issues with being ruled by someone so other to them, even if he had lived among them for 10 years (though that does help). But in the end the lords of gondor are almost all dunadain and they all have to abide by the tenets of their faith, or '''fall''' and become '''lesser men''' than even the rohirrim (terrible I know 🙄) so they really had no choice but to support Aragorn in the end.

However, reason #2

Minas Tirith's armies were absolutely decimated after a weeks long siege and war before that, and what few soldiers were left were exhausted and barely functioning. Aragorn arrived at their gates and broke the siege with a full army who'd only done ONE fight and told everyone he was king of Gondor. What was Imrahil gonna do, say no?

[hopeless-eccentric]

ok so now i actually have the energy to address this! let’s talk about boromir

i think my biggest issue with the way boromir gets characterized is that you see a lot of 1) prideful, near-spoiled cautionary tale characterization or 2) least “moral” member of the fellowship characterization, and i really just dont see either of them. if anything, i find him to be a very moving character with complex motivations that unfortunately get missed a lot because theyre not incredibly blatant and a bit hidden in the appendices

so boromir was raised to be an heir of what we know denethor sees as their kingdom, and faramir even mentions a young boromir asking why the stewards weren’t just considered kings after 1000ish years. a lot of what comes off as “pride” isnt just this guy being a dick, it’s directly what he’s been raised to think. he’s spent years learning how to be a good leader of a country he sees no reason not to lead. i wont deny he’s a proud character, but his reaction makes sense from someone raised to see this country as his responsibility. he’s not just gonna leave it the hands of some guy

to dig into that more, we know from the appendices that as a kid, boromir was his brother’s “protector” (the placement of this passage suggests that this may have been from their father, though it’s possible that faramir was just an incredibly bullyable child), but assuming either, he’s spent most of his life singlehandedly keeping what he loves safe. for faramir, he wouldve been his only supportive family after the death of his mother, and with the whole “best man in gondor” title going on, it doesnt seem like he’s in a place to get a whole lot of support or help when he needs it. im not saying boromir’s got older sister syndrome, but--

another thing along that line that pisses me off. especially when two children are close, favoritism towards one kid and maltreatment of another is going to fuck BOTH of them up. for one thing, if one child is constantly praised for successes and the other is constantly berated for failures, how supported or able to ask for help do you think kid A is gonna be? that is not a way to raise a kid if you want them to be able to handle pressure or failure normally 

as for the ring, this is a guy who’s got the weight of a nation on his shoulders. if this is the weapon that could singlehandedly save his home and his people and he just passes up on it? if the world ends and he couldve stopped it? that’s horrifying, on top of the fact that boromir’s probably got some nasty ingrained issues with failure from his childhood

and what REALLY gets me is the attitude that boromir was somehow “more evil” than the other party members for being taken over by the ring. resisting the ring is treated as one of the best markers of heroism throughout the text (galadriel, gandalf, faramir, etc), and boromir cant pull it off immediately, but he DOES IT. even in his last words, he tells aragorn he failed, but aragorn replies “no, you have conquered.” he’s talking about the ring man! boromir’s not necessarily naturally the most susceptible to the ring, he’s just more psychologically worn down than the other party members and the least supported. but he MAKES IT. he doesnt get gollumed, he doesnt waste away, he doesnt lose himself. he dies as boromir, as he was in life, protecting the people he cares about

and what really breaks my heart is that in the silmarillion, there’s an insinuation that because humans fear the Valar but love the ocean, most “miracles” are done through water. when faramir talks about finding boromir’s body, frodo points out that it wouldve taken a miracle to get him over the waterfalls safely, but faramir says it couldnt have been a dream because it left his shoes wet. so putting two and two together, the Valar step in to perform a rare miracle to bring boromir home

so at the end of the day, boromir was a man, and he was so much more than proud, and so often, his “proudest” decisions are motivated by fear. he wasnt the least good of the Fellowship, just the most troubled and the least supported. he was a protector, a man of his people, and a hero

anyway next time someone reduces him to just the “least moral member of the Fellowship” im gonna blow a gasket

[necrobratz]

gonna drop my thoughts here bc im thinkin abt it a lot but my transmasc ass cannot help but project SO HARD onto faramir

hes second borne of denethor, obvi, and denethor views his place as a woman absolutely useless in succession. he favors boromir bc he believes boromir will actually amount to something, whereas faramir will not. faramir grows up watching his elder brother train and be taken around by their father, meanwhile he must sit and be a pretty face in the background.

eventually, he asks boromir to train him. Boromir, being the beloved elder brother he is, does so. faramir is absolutely ecstatic. he wants everything boromir has and more, but it is not out of pure jealousy. he cannot place the feeling he has in his gut every time hes seen not as a young boy, but as a young woman. he’s miserable, and he wishes above all else to be seen exactly as his brother is.

he voices these thoughts to boromir, who responds with something along the lines of “then if you wish to be, you are as much a brother to me as any other man in this city, if not more-so.” they discuss many things, such as names and if to tell their father. boromir says to do so, and faramir agrees on the basis of more than just boromir acknowledging his true self. when they do, denethor is.. not pleasant! he only agrees to these “ridiculous terms” because boromir refuses to listen otherwise.

faramir proceeds to spend the rest of his childhood as a boy would, with the shadow of his father constantly looming over than him. he looks down upon everything he does, using every small mistake as an opportunity to point out his sex. no matter what he does, denethor will find anything and everything to berate and belittle him for. he must do everything boromir does and 10x more in order for denethor to even acknowledge his existence in a way that isnt entirely negative.

once boromir is dead, it doesnt get any better. denethor has no reason to respect faramir now, and just resorts back as if boromir had never told him. most people dont even know who the hell denethor is talking about because everyone just knows faramir as faramir, but he doesnt care. faramirs given up on ever trying to gain that level of respect from his father.

he meets eowyn, who is ALSO TRANS!!!!! they understand each other on a level no one else anywhere in their lives could. he finds so much comfort in her he gets weak fucking knee’d. they talk for hours and hours and by the end of it faramir is so enamored with her he cannot imagine a life without her. t4t farawyn is literally everything to me rn

this is barely coherent bc im watching two towers at the same time im writing this but heyy projection love it so much

[mariniacipher]

'It is not clear to me that the will of Théoden son of Thengel, even though he be lord of the Mark, should prevail over the will of Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elendil's heir of Gondor.' 'This is the house of Theoden, not of Aragorn, even were he King of Gondor in the seat of Denethor,' said Háma, stepping swiftly before the doors and barring the way. His sword was now in his hand and the point towards the strangers. 'This is idle talk,' said Gandalf. 'Needless isTheoden's demand, but it is useless to refuse. A king will have his way in his own hall, be it folly or wisdom.'

… they are so condescending??

like- a king demanding they be unarmed in his throne room doesnt seem like an unreasonable request, especially in times of war, and yet aragorn is trying to pull rank when he doesn’t even have one, he just has ancestry rn

and then gandalf comes in with telling aragorn to comply, which is all well and good, but then also adds that theoden should get his wish bc he is the king “be it folly or wisdom”

like- no weapons in the throne room is not that outlandish an idea???? especially when these ppl dont know you and there is a war going on???

like, my guys, please

[lesbiansforboromir]

So I’m re(re)(re)(re)reading LOTR and one thing I’m puzzling over is why the dream got sent to Faramir and then Boromir in the first place. Surely the whole ‘heir of Numenor’ role was sufficiently filled by Aragorn? I’m just puzzled as to why seemingly divine intervention would be necessary to bring them in. Is it possible the dream was the Ring’s machination? Seeing as it led Boromir to join the fellowship, and he ultimately was the one who broke first and sought it

No, the Ring doesn't have that kind of knowledge or power, not even Sauron himself was aware of the Council and the Ring was in a box during and long after the dream came to the brothers. I mean Sauron didn't even know Aragorn existed, let alone the broken sword, so the ring knowing enough to make a whole poem about him seems far-fetched. Also, in a world where the Ring DID have that much ability of foresight and knowledge of the world's happenings, I doubt the dream would have come to Faramir at all, his holier-than-thou-ness would have been immediately obvious. Also there just have to be other eminently corruptible men around that would have been easier to get to rivendell than The Steward's Heir.

But honestly it is a good question and I still don't really have a satisfying answer. The fact that it came to both brothers but to Boromir 'less' than Faramir implies Tolkien wanted it to come from a 'good' source and that Faramir is metaphysically 'correct' in his denigration of the council's choice to send Boromir instead of him.

Personally I think it came from Gandalf. He did originally live under Lorien, noted dream Valar, and if he wanted his favourite student with him to smooth the way for Aragorn's kingship this would be the only way Denethor might allow his son to leave on such a dangerous journey. Certainly he wouldn't have allowed it if Gandalf had just asked him. And this could also account for Boromir's seeing it, either an attempt by Gandalf to further legitimise the mystical veracity of the dream, OR INDEED a full mistake by him since I doubt Gandalf is particularly practiced at long distance dream projection these days.

The dream also comes to the brothers pretty much exactly around the time Gandalf becomes certain that the ring IS the one ring and rushes back to tell Frodo about it. In fact it happens a week afterwards, so plans are in motion that Gandalf is aware of by then, he could easily extrapolate what might be necessary from here on. And of course he's also sensing that this is a doomful mission and that Frodo has become a religious martyr so he would have a mystical divine sense of what 'needed to happen'.

It also goes towards how aggravated Gandalf is by Boromir's presence in the council, he's so spitty and grumpy, which is already explained by Gandalf just being an asshole BUT 'you're the wrong one why the fuck are you here' could also have contributed. However! That's only a guess and it has some unsatisfactory elements like... well if Gandalf can do this then why doesnt he do it at other times (though easy enough to explain within the story, maybe it needs some preparation, but Gandalf never does it in expanded lore either. Although now I think about it that's not entirely true, Olorin is said to have sent elves inspirational visions in order to guide their labours...)

EITHER WAY another frustrating element of Tolkienian 'I never decided so you all get to make it up yourselves' writing.

[afaramir]

hiiii denethor anon here!! wow you’re really IN IT now (denethorposting). not to add more fuel to your anger but last week i saw someone say they hated denethor. and i just realised god they don’t get him even on tumblr do they. since then i’ve been silently fuming in rage. anyway… i am very Very Intrigued by both your faramir-goes-to-rivendell-au and denethor-thorongil relationship (if you ever want to write another 800 words about this, i am here for it 👀) and this line “each of them sharpens himself upon the whetstone of the other…” fuck. fucking insane actually.

unfortunately i won’t be replying for several days (i’ve had to keep my phone in another room to keep myself from getting distracted) . my exams have started AND i’m going through some shit irl :( it’s alright tho i’ll have more Faramir and Denethor Hours soon <- chanting this constantly haha. but i am with you when denethorposting IN SPIRIT okay. oh and can we please please please have denethor december? 🙏 bye will be here soon after my exams (that will be after the 23rd march i’m afraid)

hiii denethor anon <333 i am SO sorry this is so late truly attempting to figure out how to write AND see my friends AND do things like clean my apartment and go to the grocery store while working The Job...it has eaten my life. and this week my regular coffee shop switched their hours bc i live in my old college town and they are on spring break and it has sent me directly to hell. the death of My Routine…i have coped by INCESSANTLY denethorposting on tumblr dot com. i am somehow EVEN MORE in it than i was when you sent this ask. i hope you enjoy me being truly crazyinsane whenever you get a chance to look at all those posts lol. would love 2 hear your thoughts on them. but ANYWAY as always it is so lovely to see you, i'm sorry things have been tough but truly with my whole heart i bestow upon you the strength of denethor's sixty-year psychic war (with none of the associated madness) to make it through. looking at the date i hope you are free now.

here is the mandated readmore because i have never met brevity in my whole life. u said write another 800 words and i took that as a challenge um this post is like 2000 words. well...back on my bullshit

i mean this with all the love and joy in my heart but i laughed so much. no my dear friend they do not get him on tumblr. they have not gotten him on tumblr from the beginning. if you have been spared the incessant tomato jokes i truly…[crying] I Wish I Were You So Bad. this guy doesnt even know about the tumblr denethor slander (POSITIVE) (YEARNING). its the trenches out here for real. i just live in my little bubble with me and you and like four other mutuals/Denethor Understanders and that is it.

speaking of denethor and the rivendell au. i miss the days when i was working on the faramir-in-gondor scenes. emotionally it felt like dying but i kind of knew what was going on. now i am in rivendell taking and failing this history of middle earth exam. and i am so very….the next time we see denethor for real is in return of the king. now girl…how will i survive another 80k words. i miss my boy my dear darling my tortured victim of the narrative. and according to the paragraph i just wrote faramir does too but is Refusing to admit it to himself<3

im also RIDICULOUSLY torn on how i want to resolve his arc. now just between you and me. and anyone who bothers to click that read more. I DONT WANT TO KILL HIM I WANT HIM TO LIVE. GOD I WANT HIM TO LIVE. I WILL WRITE YOU A THOUSAND HAPPY ENDINGS. except its not a happy ending its a you are not allowed to die you are forced to contend with your choices you must keep living ending. because he will always be tragic no matter what. but its ALSO a you can rest now you can be at peace son of gondor you have won your war. all you sacrificed has been worth it. you have given your all when that's what duty asked you for and it has been enough. and that makes my poor heart weep.

like on one hand the idea of resolving his storyline with faramir.......the opportunity for some kind of reconciliation, some kind of understanding between them...god. delicious. i know in my heart that faramir comes home and IS the lord that denethor once dreamed of being. not playing at it...he is high and lordly and gentle and the world bends around his will and he knows exactly what to bow to and when to stand his ground and his powers are honed to a keen edge that he uses with the utmost care and. AUGH. he walks into the citadel the IMAGE of his father. it makes me feel FERAL. and how would denethor react to that. man.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND HOW DO I END THE STORY. like. LOL. do u know what i mean. likelihood of me being able to just have a triumphant coronation and tie it all up with a bow is soooo small. the narrative contortions i would have to go through. to have denethor accept that and still be in character. Girl....no thank u <3 so we havent worked THAT out yet. like how much of the madness and despair do i want to put into the narrative. We Shall See. IM not politically savvy enough to get real into the weeds with it all so im kind of rotating just. a beautiful set of reunions with the fellowship. eowyn and faramir get engaged. boromir and faramir see all their dreams of a gondor restored come true. we skate over the political minefield and deeply navigate the beginnings of denethor and faramir's relationship in this new world. and among it all, within it all, is hope, and a new dawn. and curtain.

i got distracted but re: we are in rivendell. it IS kind of fun to think about the themes and narratives. i am pushing my Let Faramir (And Denethor) Be Numenorean + Let Numenoreans Be Weird agendas so so sooo hard and i am having the time of my life with that specifically. birds follow him around and pick up the tunes he sings. he hears the voices of the people he loves in his head. he falls into a river and after having a breakdown about it promptly decides that The River Is Testing Him And He Has Passed. he gets to rivendell and INSTANTLY knows that there is someone Very Like Him Here (its elrond. the elrond-elros-faramir connection has me FROTHING at the mouth. faramir looks at elrond and sees his father and sees every statue of elros in minas tirith and Knows that this here is the son of earendil, gil-estel, his brightest north star. elrond looks at faramir and sees his brother, his dear dead doomed brother, and every numenorean descended from him and all their sins and all their glories and yet, kind as summer, sees beauty and knowledge and a strange quiet man who carries all the weight of his country on his shoulders and yet knows him, knows the legends; perhaps the blood of numenor is not yet spent in the south)

i just think that Every Elf that meets faramir along the way is like woah...hold up. there's something up with THIS guy! men ARENT supposed to do that! not anymore anyway! galadriel is Lowkey Threatened by him. and isnt that beautiful. woman who could be queen of the earth sees god's special chosen boy and goes hang on a minute. Fuck. i think they work out their shit by the time the company leaves lothlorien but like...just thinking about how faramir lowkey blamed her for boromir's death in rotk! idk how their dynamic is exaclty gonna manifest but there's definitely some sort of similar mindreader2mindreader tension!

AND. um the idea of faramir travelling with the fellowship discovering that maybe...well. he has never wanted to be a warrior but he has been honed into a blade anyway. by his father and by necessity. and perhaps for the first time in his life...outside of gondor he does not need to be all that. he can be mithrandir's pupil without censure he can be scholarly and witty and cunning - he is all these things, in gondor. but there he has to be them, and now he can discover that yes, this is what he wants to be. and he has never let his father and the expectations of his position STOP him but there is always a weight, there is always the knowledge that your actions are disapproved of, and being away from that for a while is i just think. really good for him. see above re: he comes home the image of his father in a gentler time. keep honking im sitting in my car crying about denethor ii twenty sixth steward of gondor.jpg (<- my greatest creation PLEASE click the link lol)

ALSO IM THRILLED YOU LIKED THAT WHETSTONE LINE LOL i kind of blacked out when i typed it on the page. i think truly the crazy thing about denethor and faramir is that they SHOULD understand each other. they know so much about each other and yet are so incompetent at actually putting it to any good use towards, you know, improving their relationship. faramir is incredibly emotionally intelligent AND can read minds AND has taken so many of what he probably views as denethor's worst traits and turned them to gentler uses. (im talking about his powers but im ALSO talking about that thing he does when he encounters frodo and sam where he plays woe is me my brother is dead and i miss him sooo much to get on their good sides. yes of course he misses boromir more than anything else in the world. no he is not above using it to his advantage. and we see the SAME THING when gandalf and pippin come to minas tirith. hey isn't it crazy that both of them use boromir as a. manipulation chip. even after he's dead. hey thats kind of fucked up actually!) and denethor is…well denethor is denethor. ok im mostly messing around and thought that sentence was funny. i think he Knows most everything that goes on in faramir's head and yet Wilfully Chooses to interpret it in the worst ways because its just soo....very I Thought I Raised You Better Than That/I Honed You To Be My Blade Stop Defying Me. and despite all that the Problem is that they understand each other right up until they don't. they know how THEY feel about each other (incredible love that they can only express in the worst ways/think they're expressing only to be spurned by the other) but cannot POSSIBLY imagine that the other feels the same way.

ive gone on for SO SO LONG ALREADY LOL but. what do i have to say about denethor and thorongil. not enough and too much all at once. they're so toxic and awful for each other they're MADE for each other they're beautiful narrative parallels they're homoerotic besties they're bitter rivals they're pawns in a proxy war they're locked at all times in a psychic psychosexual situationship. um the enemy of my enemy is kissing me with tongue. idk i have more symbolism and actual analysis especially of the denethor-ecthelion-thorongil Issue. but we are just getting into it. so i will start with the situations bc i have two angles for this. on one hand i do think it is very fun if they constantly homoerotically circle each other for years and years and never do a THING about it. like...this is a stitching up wounds wiping blood off each others faces battle couple/situationship situation that THEN turns into a ridiculously high functioning political rival partnership bent together over books long into the night catching each others eye in council meetings using their very real disdain for each other for Manipulation Purposes and getting uh. SO hot over it. like.....Do You Know What I Mean. just. truly unresolved sexual tension THROUGH THE ROOF. it DELIGHTS me. they are always putting themselves in situations. and then NOT making out about it. AND THEY CAN READ EACH OTHERS MINDS!! THE WHOLE TIME!! SO THEY KNOW EXACTLY HOW MUCH THEY WANT EACH OTHER AND STILL ARENT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT!!! like thats just really good. but on the other hand.......the idea of just an absolutely terrible beautiful toxic rivals with benefits codependent situationship. i hate you so much and you know what we DO need to make out about it. every time they fuck it is a power play and they are having SO much fun with it. they will both start arguments with each other (AND IN PUBLIC TOO) just so they can fight and make up. the mind reading...Oh You Know What I Mean. taylor swift voice we had this big white city all to ourselves we blocked the noise with the sound of i need you and for the first time i had something to lose! logically thorongil is not yet in his grubby ranger era but the idea of him being dirt smeared all the time and hanging out with prim proper polished denethor. in the fic (which does exist and DOES follow the second model) theres a scene where hes just chilling with his head in denethor's lap and denethor is actually rather delighted and devoting ALL of his copious braincells to pretending not to be. Man. well never say im not a slut for contrast. and now the rest of what i could say is simply straight up redacted for indecency so it is time for this post to be over. the last thing i have to say is that it absolutely ruins denethor's life forever when thorongil up and leaves. sometimes a situationship....anyway. MUCH LOVE TO YOU AS ALWAYS yes we will have denethor december i already have an url saved.