#elmike rewrites

[gayofthefae]

If Mike's love confession was supposed to be a big romantic moment, he would have said it not knowing it would help but it would have been received as empowering her powers.

Instead, he said it knowing it would help, completely undercutting his motivations.

The entire trope that scene is referencing is "you can't die without knowing how much I love you". But that isn't what this was. They made sure to write this to me "I love you, will that help convince you not to die?" which is an entirely different thing.

Mike would have told her of his own volition simply because he was losing her, but because of specifically what Will said in his encouragement, referencing a conversation about how Mike "gives her the courage to fight on", we know that he was motivated to do it by the fact that it would help her fight harder, not out of pure intention for her to at worst, die knowing.

[gayofthefae]

Perfect phrasing in "position to put Mike in". He could have been in a place where he felt this, but the writers are the ones who chose to ensure that we knew that. Mike may have felt that way, but the writers put him in the position to demonstrate it. We could have never known.

what a weird position to put mike in when he's supposedly in love with el here...

why does mike have to be the one to not be attentive to el's emotional state? why is dustin the one pointing it out to mike?? mike should be the one who is attentive to el and has to point out things about her to others.

if he's in love with her, he should be

but he's not .

meanwhile in bylerland...

"He's quiet today."

"He's always quiet."

hm...

[starrycloak]

So I watched Tootsie (1982), which was on the ST inspiration board and-

Michael Dorsey is a theater actor, Dorothy Michaels is a TV actress

While Michael was constantly dismissed from plays and other projects for being 'too much' (a.k.a being fed up with and attempting to suggest changes to the material he was given)-

Dorothy rewrites reality the show by making her own rules improvising and nobody can stop her.

Michael was never what others (or he himself) wanted to be-

while Dorothy is an icon, a role model, an all-round sensation, the image of the show.

idk just fun parallels additional to the circulated scene of confessing love behind a disguise :)) imo michael and dorothy can represent anyone in the willelmike dynamic and the vh1 trio ft. did theory :))

bonus elmike round (kinda not really ig):

(not likening sandy's reaction to what s5 el would do; the focus of sandy's rage is on how she feels betrayed by her friend's lies first and foremost, not by her lover being in love with somebody else)

[himynameis4]

One of my favorite things about the madwheeler roleswap au (first post here) is that we get to play with—and highlight—dynamics.

Max is very big on getting El to choose, on asking El what she needs. She really views El as another girl—one with superpowers, sure, but just another person, like her. “You’re a superhero” (mike) versus “You have superpowers” (max). Trusting el to make her own decisions about her powers, versus trying to dictate what she does with them. (Mike had a point—El does tend to push herself too far, because of her self-sacrificial nature. Mike’s own trauma and perspective prevented him from articulating this in a way that didn’t come off as controlling, because he absolutely was being controlling, and acting like a little shit (earlier). But he’s our little shit.)

In a sense, I think having El in Max’s life earlier will give her this… template, to work off of. El’s context for her interactions is very limited, and her reference points in canon (as of pre-season 2) are Papa, Mike, and the rest of the Party (though she engaged most directly with Mike). Her time with Joyce made an impression, but wasn’t long enough for El to fixate on in the same way.

Having Max in her life allows her to contrast Hopper and Mike’s behavior to Max’s; she may not have the words to articulate exactly what is different, but both Hopper and Mike do a lot more dictating.

And actually? Having the reference point of Max’s behavior (Max isn’t perfect, either, btw—she and Mike are A Lot more similar than either of them might admit) to compare Hopper and Mike to, and to use to call out Hopper and Mike, might actually lay a stronger foundation for El and Mike to become friends. El has the comparison to see the ways Mike tends to be more… bossy, than Max, and articulate that it bothers her (especially once she and Max reunite & can gossip). El can then articulate as much to Mike, who, once he understands what he’s done wrong, usually tries to make amends, if imperfectly. (The fact that they’re not pushing themselves into a comphet relationship will probably also help, ngl). El also has it impressed on her by Max, in the week she’s with Max, the importance of El getting to choose what she likes, because Max does a lot more asking.

That’s one dynamic I like playing with, at least.

[madwheelerz]

What I wouldn't give for a platonic elmike rewrite of Stranger Things

[gayofthefae]

@elhopperentourage Oh, it's much more than that. If they didn't want Byler, Mike and El would have never been separated in the first place.

And a great point in there is that, yeah, some of the things they do to emphasize Byler are like...just a little insulting to the others if it's not romantic. Why aren't the others there? Do they not love Will as much or something? What are you trying to say?

Mike is there for a singular reason: in 2x04 he prioritized differently than every other member of the party. His entire plotline, every scene he's in, is only him missing Will until it resolves at the end in him convincing Joyce to let him inside. They even do the classic thing where they show you the resolution but not the payoff to get you to watch the next episode so he goes inside to see Will but we don't follow him in until the next episode.

But everyone else was focused on finding Dart. Something might I add, he was previously very passionate about, specifically, even, in another parallel to El. They could have done something with that, had him come around to understanding, I don't know. Or if they wanted him to not pick up for Dustin's plotline, they could have had him so focused on El.

YES! They could have had the Max's board at school thing jumpstart a whole thing that separated him from the rest of the party instead. Will's story is mostly supernatural, it doesn't really change on the surface without Mike. Anyone could have realized the spy thing. Just Joyce and Jonathan could have told him they loved him.

If you need him in danger for El to see in Chicago, he could have ended up at the lab for reasons related to her, not knowing the others were there like the rest of the party didn't, then he's in danger with Hopper and that motivates El to come back.

But yeah, now I'm thinking about her being at school and how that could been played up more as them just missing each other. That she goes to see her mom and to Chicago and he can't find her but he's more committed to looking this time, whatever. But instead, Will got attacked right then. And what's more, once again, everyone was there. The others didn't do what he did. He heard from Will on Halloween but he didn't need to do anything with that.

Well, arguably he did, which brings to that setup for the season. Will didn't need to tell him and only him to give him a setup of info only he had to worry over him with and use to convince Joyce. Really, they could have done a lot with isolation for Will if Mike hadn't been there. Plenty of trauma and abuse themes there. But they didn't. And the argument they make, as always, is that it wouldn't have succeeded the same if they had.

But they wasted an inciting incident. They wasted an inciting incident. They wasted an inciting incident. I'm thinking so hard about it now I never thought about it like that. That was for El and El only. El saw Mike and Max so that it could make her angry and leave. Mike saw El, thought about her for two seconds, then went back to Will and didn't mention her again until prompted by Max.

He nearly SAW El. And instead of motivating, if anything, it was his breaking point to tell himself "I've been seeing her when she isn't really there for too long. I need to let it go." and going to Will.

Mike framed and made his own arc in season 2 have something to do with the classic "sacrificing the past and grief so you don't lose your present and future". Valid and good message and story every time. But to do that, which is good, then have the person he realized he needed to prioritize over not be dead...and him adjust THEM to his present and future(and us forgetting hey, that other guy did experience his prioritization which seemed to be going somewhere and kinda got left in the dust, until it's brought up to us directly)...juicy juicy juicy.

thinking about the hospital in season two again and…

why was mike even there if not to develop byler?

like think about it. everyone else there is an adult (minus will ofc) and all there other friends are dealing with individual problems. but mike is there for will the entire time. the entire season mike spends worrying about will. you could argue this is because they’re “just really good friends” but the other members of the party are also friend with will. mike chooses to follow will around basically the entire season. it doesn’t make sense for him to be written this way if him and will are just “best friends.” why not have mike worry about his “real” romantic interest? maybe his and el’s relationship isn’t as important to the show. maybe their relationship isn’t meant to last. maybe this was the writers trying to show mikes feelings earlier on…

[strangeswift]

Tysm for the tag this is so fun!!

Names of the files of all my WIPs:

M*levenVision

Apocalyptic Byler

Byler Jonathan POV

Madwheeler College AU

College AU 2.0

Hopper Best Dad

S4 Mike POV

Elmike Breakup soft

Elmike Breakup decidedly not soft

Runaway Will

Destroying Castle Byers Rewrite

Mike and Lonnie Fight

Terry and Becky

These are like a mix if half baked ideas and half written abandoned fics lmaoo. So if I have snipets I like I'll respond with those but if not I'll give crumbs. <3

I simply cannot think of 12 people to tag so I'm gonna be lame and say open tag!! But like I mean it. If you see this and you wanna to it, please do it. I'm tagging you. Tag.

WIP TAG

saw this post and wanted to bring this game to my dashboard and my mutuals because why not? so, here i am!

Rules: post the names of all the files in your WIP folder regardless of how non-descriptive or ridiculous. Let people send you an ask with the title that most intrigues them and then post a little snippet of it or tell them something about it! And then tag as many  people as you have wips. I have deemed that this isn’t just for writing either. Sketch titles? Comics? Dnd campaigns? If you have an unfinished project, it counts!

i have some wips outlined, but most of them are random ideas that still need some order before i can work on them (all of these are byler)

mike wheeler’s guide to being a good best friend - idea

sorry i didn’t kiss you (but it’s obvious i wanted to) - outlined

a lifetime of this - idea

baby, how could i be so wrong - outlined

when tomorrow comes (will you still be there?) - idea

time swap (no title) - idea/outline

tagging (no pressure): @strangeswift @booksandpaperss @blueeandyellowmakesgreen @laozuspo @likegoldintheair and if you see this you are tagged!

[gayofthefae]

There's a scene of Mike and Will uniting in loving El

There's a scene of Lucas and El uniting in loving Max

There's even a scene of Will and El hugging Dustin together

And Mike and Will hugging Lucas together

There's plenty. This is the SEASON for these trios. Even without hugs, the Lucas, Max, Dustin trio has been majorly back too! It's the SEASON for three people loving each other, especially with a focus on two united in loving one, in a way it never has before.

My point is that if Mike and El had been written to unite in their love for Will or invite him in in any way like that, it would have fixed so much that implies Byler.

One very simple way they could have done that is instead of El stepping out of the frame with Mike to be alone in a shot hugging Will, Will could have stepped into the shot with them. Just a very simple visual symbolism, can still even be just a one on one hug.

But instead, the continued to isolate any two pairs. Because they are not done emphasizing that the three of them in their current state are not something that can coexist. Mike and Will can be together. And Mike and El can be together. But Will and El can be together. But because Mike cannot be with Will in front of El, they cannot be all together. A group hug is off the table. A group is off the table...right now.

Because of the natures of their relationships.

But it would have been so easy. That was his entire conflict of 4x02. For people who still weren't sure he was gay by this point, that was his only conflict: feeling excluded by the both of them. A silent apology at any point after their reunion of just inviting him in in some way would have been huge. The equivalent of that subtlety of Mike telling Will not to donate his D&D book. A simple callback, but framing Will's main issue with it as being excluded and resolving that issue.

Will can still be gay. He can still have feelings for Mike. But if he is going to in the end be fine despite currently not being over Mike, they would need to make that statement that his main issue was their exclusion of him and now that that's resolved, he is okay!

That he is gay and in love with Mike. But that isn't the issue that needs resolving. The issue is that he wants all three of them to be able to be together. And the other stuff is just for the purposes of queer representation, his true happy ending is having his best friend and sister in a room together.

But they didn't do that. In fact, they did the opposite. They showed Mike and El still separated from him, implying that the reason Will and El cannot coexist in Mike's life is still present and was not any of the reasons he previously listed and fixed, then showing Will still sad.

The painting could have been him letting go. It wasn't. His closure could have been all three of them having a moment together like they didn't get in 4x02. It wasn't. They made certain to emphasize that Mike & El and Mike & Will are still very separate and that, despite being on good terms with Mike again, despite being on good terms with El again, despite making a commitment to never pursue his feelings, he does not have closure, he does not have peace.

So that's not what it was. They really knocked them out one by one. They said "he needs to be happy. You suggested put his friendship with Mike back? Nope. Reunite with El? Uh uh. Let go of his pursuit of Mike? Eh, didn't work."

And then they gave the interesting implication with that lack of trio:

"All three of them together? Sorry, that can't exist without the natures of their relationships changing".

In not doing it even when everything else was fixed, they cemented that the problem was not that Mike and Will had been apart, it was not that he was scared El would leave him, it was not that he thought he was unneeded, it wasn't even that he hadn't said "I love you" yet because they still aren't all together in the epilogue, it was the only remaining fact. They stripped away every possible option to ensure you could see with no excuses the only unchanged variable left:

Mike and El are still together. And Mike and Will are not.

Until that changes, their happy trio like Will wants cannot exist. So people can believe all they want that the thing he truly wanted in 4x02 was all three of them together and that's all he truly wants in the end, but they made sure that even that itself required Mike and Will to be together too.

[gayofthefae]

Thinking about the little moments. The little unnecessary inclusions that tell us something. The little scripted moments in passing.

"Just please stop talking dude". So Lucas starts teasing about El. It doesn't lighten him like you'd think. He is not humored. "Yeah, real mature, Lucas".

It's reminiscent of season 1 to me, albeit Lucas' tone in it is different. Why doesn't he want to think about it?

He isn't even defensive in a being-teased way here, he just seems irritated and genuinely wanting to shut down the conversation. It's a contrasts from Lucas in season 1 that he's now trying to support and engage with their relationship, but Mike still isn't having it - so his irritability in season 1 then wasn't about Lucas' tone either. Here, it's like he comes here after making out with her and this is his time to not think about that. To distract from it. Don't bring that into this. I'm decompressing.

We know Mike's tone on the walkie while biking is weird. But we don't talk enough about how he shows up to the movies irritable.

"We're gonna miss the opening" "If you guys keep whining about it"

"Just please stop talking dude" "Real mature, Lucas"

The others have a reason to be grumpy, he left them waiting and they were anxious about missing it. He doesn't. He dismisses that anxiety and says 'Told you' when they make it. He was never worried they'd be late.

Another classic case of we have a point A, a point B, and one event in the middle. We can decipher what happen. Coming from making out with El made Mike irritable.

Which is especially odd, given we're directly shown how that exact event should have left a lovestruck teen:

(another case of matching energy. why does he match Will's romantic energy in season 4 in scenes but not even El's when they're dating? He's CONTRASTED even)

And it doesn't play as privacy. It doesn't play as "that's just between me and her <3". It plays as wanting to get his mind off it.

He's not annoyed by the teasing. He's irritable when he shows up and can't handle the additional reminder. This is where he goes to avoid that.

And it's also illogical given his other behavior this season that he not want to talk about her. His whole thing this season is that he pays attention to only El so much that it's a problem...but when she's not around he doesn't want to talk about her at all? It is a textbook smitten-sign to have someone talk non-stop about their partner. It's even a way in many shows that the friends will realize the character has feelings for someone. He doesn't feel that way. When he was grieving, it made sense, but now, he has no excuse. If he were smitten, he would want to talk about her. If the REASON he spends all his time with her and not the others were because he were smitten, he would want to talk about all his time with her. He would WANT to talk about *her*.

He should have shown up loopy like El was. Just like every time something in Mike about El is called out, we should have been shown it before it was mentioned. He should have shown up in a lovestruck daze to be commented on. He should have showed up how we last saw El.

He shows up in a lovestruck daze. They're irritated because it's clear exactly why he was late and that he wasn't worried about them being late while they were busy waiting. Lucas teases him about it. Mike responds with even just a much lighter delivery of the same line, some laughter to it. Instead?

He showed up irritable.

And we see the exact moment of shift. Because he found Hop's anger hilarious. We watched him laughing. He looks carefree.

She reminded him they'd do this all again tomorrow

His face hardened. And he showed up irritable. No events in between.

Looking through these gifs, actually, what used to seem like Mike wanting nothing to do with anyone but El now seems like irritability from her romantic presence. Especially given we see him be fine once they get into the movies with just the four of them.

The others beside him are both still interested and engaging to some extent. I'm making sure to emphasize that El, notably very smitten, is not behaving this way.

But look at the difference. It isn't the party he's irritable around. It isn't that he's irritated NOT to be alone with her. He's fine here.

it's quite the opposite. The idea of it is what MAKES him upset. Consistently throughout the season even. Here is him when Lucas takes action to get them back together and tells him he'll give him an opening to be alone with her.

He only relaxes once they actually talk and it's her to him again, not the concept of romance. He relaxes when they talk and it doesn't end in them getting back together. Because those are the two things he dreaded. Not being with her...and being with her. The m&m scene is sweet because he's in his perfect medium.

We need platonic Elmike because they deserve a relationship without resentment or anxiety. Because he doesn't resent her. He doesn't want to avoid seeing her. But there are associations to it that he dreads, and that's hurtful to both of them.

[gayofthefae]

Know how I know payoff moments of love go before or after the big battle not during? Not just because that has been the case for every other one (Milkvan s1, Jancy s2, Lumax s2, Jancy s3, Jopper s3, Milkvan s3, Jopper s4) but because they have a different major payoff "I love you" EXACTLY where Mike and El's WOULD have gone if they were endgame.

That's right. I've said it before, if they were endgame, he wouldn't have been interrupted by Argyle and would have said it. Because those moments need to have no stakes or incentive to say what needs to be said, need to be able to be a dialogue, and be without too much urgency so that everything feels entirely voluntary - the main issue with the ily speech as is. He should have said it there, when all those things were true. But instead they gave it to...

Will and Jonathan. They cut Mike off, making him laugh using that only to prompt Will's sadness that alerts Jonathan to tell Will he loves him. People talk about Will being in service to Milkvan, but Mike seemingly almost saying it here only existed to PROMPT Will's!

They put it right there. Where we all know it's supposed to go. Big loving payoff to his season arc. Literally RIGHT before the big battle. It is the last thing they do before leaving that conversation to tell El they're ready to start. It is the last thing ANY of them do before. Lumax are the same, the movie date established then interrupted by Erica's signal to start.

Which means they know damn well the rule. They know so deeply that they won't cross the line into saying it during the battle that they go right up to the edge but NEVER past. They clearly and consistently demonstrate the limit being hit and stopped by it. It is a hard line. They know what it implies to cross it, to add stakes, to add incentive. And they crossed it.

They know exactly where to place it in the episode. We know. Because they gave it to somebody else.

They did what writers love to do in these situations. They purposefully wrote two options to be mutually exclusive then acted like their hands were tied when they only chose one. But they put Will in Mike's spot. They used Mike's seeming-attempt to PROMPT Will's ONLY.

They put both Lumax and Will and Jonathan's payoff the scene leading directly into the battle. They could have put Mike and El's too. They were never limited to one. Need separate locations? Have them prep the glasses in the car, where he grabbed them from! Many many ways to write.

But instead, they wrote themselves the perfect opportunity for it, so much so that they INDICATED THAT TO THE AUDIENCE VERY HEAVILY...then gave it to somebody else.

"I just wanted to say that..." El looks hopeful- he doesn't say it and they cut to Jonathan telling Will he loves him.

That knew damn well where to put it. They didn't.

[gayofthefae]

That fight scene would have properly built up "you're my superhero" as a good line if they had just not had "not anymore".

At the beginning says that unlike their friends who have been bullied, she actually is abnormal - referring to her powers and upbringing. Okay, now this works with his down the line response of I love your powers too.

But she ends with "you're a superhero" "not anymore". One line. Easy to cut, written on purpose. She isn't insecure because she different from everyone else in ability. She's insecure because she feels like she isn't enough withOUT her powers. Her function was saving people and without that, she's the freak she always was with no fallback.

One line. Changes the whole thing. Written on purpose to break the illusion that Mike's speech is perfectly romantic.

[gayofthefae]

True reason Byler is canon? Will's feelings serve no purpose for MILKVAN.

Honestly, I've said before I'm a bandwagon fan because I can't handle the heartbreak of it, so I was thinking of if I had to rewatch it and jump ship.

And I don't think I could on this one. It feels too much like "their love beats all odds and...!...overcomes...queerness? He was almost queer but they saved it and he came back to her?" what is the obstacle here?

You say it's the I love you, but then how do Will's feelings factor in at all? Because having 0 impact on Mike not only isn't how writing works but also the prospect of that was erased heavy handedly by the painting and Will encouraging Mike for the ily speech. Will's feelings must serve Mike's story, even if, unfortunately for the message to queer people, that is his story with El.

And that doesn't mean encouraging it. Will easily could done that as a friend. Often a love triangle in some way or another teaches you what you really wanted, I don't feel that they can successfully imply that he didn't know that was El, and season 4 does not show the realization that Will has feelings for him driving him further to El because he realizes, more like Nancy with Steve and Jonathan, that it IS her he really wants. Of course, honestly, the best execution of that would require him to be bisexual and have been considering Will but realize El was his true person.

But that isn't what happened. He already told her he loved her and went back to her and that wasn't the motivation for it. His actions on the surface were unrelated to Will, which means that they were motivated by him in yet to be revealed ways. Those ways could technically be heterosexual and platonic, but it remains true that a character must be impacted by the other's actions. Both must be or it doesn't serve enough of a purpose and it has been poorly written, a waste of time for the character receiving.

If all he needed was to feel loved by Will or to be encouraged, Will did not need to have feelings for him.

If I rewatched this show for Mlvn, Will wouldn't even be an obstacle they overcame, which he should be. Either Will's feelings for Mike and El make Mike and El stronger than they would have been without them or they exist to be satisfied and reciprocated. Those are the only two options, and as it exists, Mike and El do not have a threat to their relationship to be overcome as their entire issue has been resolved - "4 seasons of buildup", right? They did it. It's finished. And that wasn't Will's service to the plot. He DID have impact on it. But his romantic feelings did not. They had 0 bearing on his ability to help get them where they needed to be. His 4x05 advice on telling the truth was about him being gay, not his feelings, and what he passed on from El had no reason to not be true.

Will's feelings have no impact on their romantic relationship. We've covered that his queerness is important but his feelings are useless to his arc whether he ends up with someone else or not (he could have realized through an endgame boy or through Tom Cruise, it could have been anything and didn't need a stepping stone realization boy, let alone set-back heartbreak), but we need to also acknowledge that they have no impact on Mike and El's relationship, or anyone else at all for that matter.

If they do not end up together, his feelings are effectively useless. If you wanted active representation of life without actionable messages or themes, watch a movie about somebody's honest to God day to day that has no purpose or plot, just then going to work coming home cooking and going to sleep. I mean, it's accurate.

Bringing it back to Little Women comparisons, if Mike and El are endgame then that would make Will Jo instead of Amy. But Mike is still Laurie. And part of what drives Laurie is having the comparison of a different kind of love, even if romantic, to contrast his with Amy when he finds it, and his heartbreak matures him to where he needs to be when he reaches her. But this all requires him to have had feelings for the Jo character, and even if the contrast were used to show the difference between platonic and romantic, he would at some point have had to be unsure of that with the Jo character. The perceived romance with Jo would have also had to explicitly come first. These are all things that would have had to happen already.

There is one season left, yes. But the way the conflicts and timing have been written, it is already too late for Will's feelings to impact their relationship - that they would not been together in the end without his feelings for Mike specifically driving them towards each other, the same way I expect Steve's to be a wake-up call for Nancy.

Will's feelings would have to teach Mike or El something that brings them closer and overcome a previous internal threat to their relationship. But they overcame his threat without even knowing about his romantic feelings and as a result of actions that were not dependent on them - Will could have even said the exact same painting speech but as himself platonically, the hiding is what makes it romantic. They overcame it before Will's feelings could even get involved. So, yes, there is a 5th season. But they're supposedly closer than ever with the multi-season threat to their relationship gone, and they did it without the impact of his romantic feelings, so

They are useless. They are painful, unactionable, and simply would be a drag to rewatch - which is the opposite of their leading intention with this show. UNLESS, Mike reciprocates.

To be useful is to change the course of the story. Will did change the course through his encouragements. Will did not change the course by any use of his romantic feelings. Meaning from HERE, the course needs to be changed...and Mike and El's doesn't need any more fixing. So which direction do we go for them now?

I think that answers itself, there is only one. Away. We move away.

Will must break them up, it is the only thing left for them to do. And there is only one way that he could do that that cannot be saved.

Will's romantic feelings are useless to all parties unless Mike reciprocates and it is too late to make them useful if he doesn't. In fact, the only way they have been useful up until this point is if his feelings already posed a threat to their relationship, only possible by reciprocation.

"Mike is unimpacted by Will's feelings!" Really? Because if Mike and El were endgame he would actually HAVE to be.

If Mike had already had romantic feelings for Will, Mlvn endgame would be more likely. He didn't. His feelings are useless to every character in the show. Professional writers don't write useless things.

[gayofthefae]

If Mike couldn't tell El he loved her because he was scared of losing her Will would have said something like "to say how you really feel, especially to the people you care about the most, because what if they reject you?" or "because it's hard to be that vulnerable"

He said neither of those things. He said "what if they don't like the truth". And Mike nods.

Rejecting you applies to Mike because if he's scared she'll leave him regardless at this point because she "doesn't need him" anymore. Vulnerability works because he's scared that telling her will make it "hurt more".

But Will involved her. Her opinion of what is being said. For Will, rejection, vulnerability, and not liking the truth are synonymous. For Mike, they aren't. The first two can be any truth, but there is only one truth we know she doesn't like.

The closest you can possibly get is his fear that she'll be indifferent to it because she's moved past him, but indifference is not what Will said. And that's closer to the "rejection" option.

It was very easy to apply to both of them in the context of Mike being straight. But they didn't. Because they needed it to be that specific. They needed it specific enough to contradict. Will's specificity is unaffected by it and gives the exact same message with the exact same depth.

For Will, he means 'what if they don't like that I'm gay'. But for what Mike nodded to and went into deeper thought on, Will did not say 'what if El doesn't care by the time I say it'; he did not say 'what if investing deeper breaks your heart more down the line'. He said 'what if telling her the truth hurts her'.

In his speech in 4x09, Mike says that he didn't like the truth and was scared she would be indifferent to him or have a positive reaction now but reject him for other reasons down the line. Neither of those things "I was scared that the moment I told you the truth, it would upset you".

"Rejection" applies to both Will coming out and El not needing Mike anymore. "Vulnerability" applies to both Will coming out and El breaking Mike's heart down the line.

"Doesn't like the truth" applies to both Will coming out and El being immediately upset by what Mike tells her.

Upset. Not indifferent. Not "I'm sad that you're too late with what I used to need" introspective disappointment.

Hurt as a direct result of Mike telling her the truth.

They could have written it to apply to both situations. In fact, it was harder to do what they did. But they needed to clear: Mike was scared the truth would hurt her.

[gayofthefae]

They do this over and over. They apply tropes to Mike and El that require justification and context without the justification or context, and the audience takes it because they're used to seeing that trope.

Mike denying his feelings for El in season 1. That had no basis.

That trope is traditionally used for friends to lovers and/or queer people. A situation with stakes to admitting your feelings to yourself. "I could lose her friendship", "I don't want to be queer if I like him", whatever it is.

But Mike has no reason to deny his feelings. In fact, a boy surrounded by homophobia who is accounted by his character description to have not liked a girl before? He should be RELIEVED! By Lucas' account, he is way more focused on El than anything else. Consistency with that behavior would be for his feelings to be open and enthusiastic. But they're not.

Even in season 2, Lucas only ever denies being with Max or her reciprocating his feelings, and he only does this because the *stakes* are his and Dustin's friendship/Dustin's feelings. He has *stakes*. But neither, from the moment they meet her, ever deny their feelings for her.

Denying your feelings for someone is a trope used in friends to lovers, something they are repeatedly falsely marketed as, but they're not. Jonathan and Nancy are. Joyce and Hopper are. But Mike and El aren't - and neither are Lucas and Max. Two middle schoolers date after one week of talking is like...super common. The timelines are short making the time we spend with them seem longer, but these were not slow-burns. One of them knew that.

To deny your feelings for someone like he did, there are two options:

He genuinely did not have feelings for her before it was suggested and his confusion expressed was genuine.

What he felt for El being romantic feelings meant something for him otherwise. For example, if he felt the same way with El as Will and didn't want to have feelings for Will, he would also harshly deny his feelings for El out of admitting not that he liked El, but that that's what romantic feelings feel like.

So he's either telling the truth or it's queerness. But in no world is the stake El. It's nerve-wracking, but not terrifying. This is how dating works and he knows it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If they wanted all these tropes, they wouldn't have kissed in season 1. If they wanted all these tropes, they might even have ended up together at the love confession in season 4. Then "scared of losing you if I told you the truth" "risk getting hurt by admitting it to myself" all make sense.

But those tropes go hand in hand with other tropes that are. not. present.

So they make no sense and, of course, need....other....justifications.

[gayofthefae]

Thinking about the number of Milkvan moments that were unscripted and therefore not intended or required for the scene. The fall into Mike's arms in the sauna. The head rest in the hospital. All these moments called for by characters and therefore advocated by actors but not intended by the writers who KNOW THE ENDING they're planning.

The Snow Ball kiss. The Snow Ball kiss would not have happened. It wasn't in the original script.

There would be so many more of these moments

Kiss SUBSTITUTES. I've told you I had a forehead touch rejected for being "too platonic" but I haven't told you I have also had it used as a stand in before we choreographed the kiss.

They wanted intimacy without a kiss so they picked this. But they were committed enough to it not being a kiss that they brainstormed that.

Mike and El would have kissed in 1x08, in 3x01 only to annoy Hopper, in 3x08 for Mike to stand still eyes open, and in 4x02 at their reunion...which was in front of Will (and in his perspective, so exaggerating the joy and romance makes sense) and makes character sense.

So for all the making out...we have two kisses. TWO. One confirmed to be scripted. Their first kiss. The other one is unconfirmed because it isn't completely necessary so it's possible for it to not be there. Their first kiss only. Wow.

So in the original version, they kiss for the first time romantically, then to annoy Hopper, then to annoy Mike, then to annoy Will, then not of their own accord again.

Got it.

Anyways, as I always say: THEY SHOULD HAVE KISSED AT THE REUNION!

He didn't know what place they were in and maybe she was planning on breaking up with him before he said ily but it could have been impulsive on her part, or he could have initiated, or it could have communicated almost an olive branch - like this did, saying "we're in a fine place right now. We're okay." to each other

But nope. Forehead touch.

[gayofthefae]

They could have had Mike say "it wasn't fate...", make it just a tiny bit more salvageable. Open it up for that subtext of "we weren't destined to meet originally, BUT-"

But no. "It's not fate". It's. It is not.

They could have had him say "It isn't fate that we met, I'm not special, anyone could have been so lucky, and one day she'll realize that" as was supported by the context (and the reason I misremember it). Instead, they had him say "It isn't fate that we're together now. It isn't destiny for us to be together. It's just dumb luck. Anyone can fulfill that role for her. And soon she'll realize that too", 'she's already started to' as is said in the original script.

His words are insults. No doubt about it. But they didn't have him insult the past, something he can reframe (to make it consistent with when he does in his speech to her later). They had him insult the present. That isn't about reframing and retrospect. That's what he feels now. He didn't call meeting her dumb. He called dating her dumb. They switched tenses in the MIDDLE to make sure of that.

Such a small change. They didn't make.

He thinks their relationship is dumb but for reasons he is desperate to hide. He thinks it's dumb but that's grounds for him to keep it, not end it. It'd be grounds for her to end it. She loves him, but he's not irreplaceable. He's praying she doesn't notice because to him, she is. A boyfriend who will love her is easy to find and as soon as she realizes that she'll stop settling for one who can't and leave him, looking around or waiting for someone who can. But a girlfriend who shields him from questionings like "You called a couple of times. It's been a year, Mike. Meanwhile El has like a book of letters from you" is dangerous to disappear for even a second.

Just like how he knew he loved her before he let it slip out in front of people in an emotional moment of fearing losing her, he already knew he thought their relationship was stupid and over too. He just knew if anyone ever heard him say it, they'd hold him to it, because those are the kinds of words a better person considers actionable.

tldr: he doesn't think meeting El was stupid, he thinks being with her is. He's not scared she'll realize it could have been anyone and wish it had been, he's scared she'll realize it could be anyone and replace him. Because if she ever thought their relationship was stupid, it would mean that they weren't right together and she'd end it. If he does, it means he's not right and he has to stay with her at all costs to hide that fact.