#esp in the case of a Ti Ni loop

[nekuz]

forced conclusion: estp in Ti Ni loop (?) or just excessive use of Ti. that makes the most sense what with the way i continually come to a conclusion only to reanalyze it and find inconsistencies from seemingly nowhere lol anyways if any of u sense me thinking abt typology again burn me at the stake before i really do go insane this time

[ill-be-istj-if-no-one-else-is]

hi there, i was wondering if you help me type myself. i used to type as a enfp, but i retook the the test like a couple months ago and tried to be more realistic ab myself and i got entp. that was sufficient enough for me but i tend to hyper-fixate on concepts that intrigue me bc i wanna know all ab it and stuff. i took another test from the personality hacker (the others were 16personalities) and i got intj consistently 1/5

im a perfectionist and when i have a vision for a project, i have the work ethic to execute it details and all. when i plan something i have one overarching plan then several contingency plans for that plan then alternatives to those plans. my therapist says i live too much in the future, i don’t appreciate what i have today bc i’m too busy planning tomorrow, that i don’t accept things for what they are bc i’m pondering what they could/should be or i think too deeply ab superficial stuff 2/5

i get hunches all the time, like i took one look at my friend and knew that he had just lost his virginity bc he acted diff from his norm. the answer could’ve been anything but ik it was sex (i was right). surprising me is difficult bc i usually get hunches that something is up. i over analyze everything and i cannot take things at face value. rules have to be logical for me otherwise i’ll critique them. i don’t like authority but like to always be in control (???) 3/5

i don’t like expressing my feelings and prefer to suppress them and deal with them on my own. at the same time i’m usually the shoulder my friends cry on and i’m pretty nurturing. i’m charismatic and good at reading nonverbal cues. i’m pretty friendly and warm and ppl generally like me but i don’t think this is my real personality (think customer service) and when i’m in social mode too long, i need to be alone otherwise i get irritable. ppl often are surprised by how quiet and serious i am 4/5i think ppl can be a lil too emotional, esp in work or debates. i don’t like conflicts but i love to argue. sometimes i wish ppl could disconnect from their feelings as easily as I can. i’m pretty blunt but i believe in tact. i often feel a lotta things to be common sense and when i express this ppl are usually shocked. ppl frustrate me when they aren’t efficient, try to boss me around, refuse to argue their beliefs, are illogical. when i loop, i isolate myself and stay in my head. 5/5

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Hi anon,

I am leaning towards ENTP.

Part 1: tests suck and honestly if someone doesn’t get INTJ on a free MBTI test I start to wonder what their deal is. Literally everyone gets INTJ. It’s bullshit.

Part 2: having a plan and living too much in the future without focusing on what you have now are most commonly associated with high Ni, but Ni is also not in my experience as good at contingencies. I would rule out high Se, but either high Si (planning and contingencies) or high Ne would be possible. Your writing style reminds me more of Si-Ne users and particularly high Ne users as does the statement of thinking very deeply about superficial stuff, so I’m putting a pin in that for now.

Part 3: most people get hunches - I’ve had some seriously strong (and correct) ones in my life and my intuition is last, because those hunches require an understanding of changed sensory signs typically (eg: weird behavior triggers the idea that something is up and then you can reason your way through what might be going on). However, frequently trusting hunches without waiting for confirmation is more consistent with intuition.

For the part regarding rules this is a case where examples are absolutely crucial. I spend a lot of my time at work arguing with high Ti users, for example, and both of us firmly feel we’re being the logical and efficient one, so it’s hard to do any typing with out understanding. Not liking authority but liking being in control sounds more like it could come from enneagram, but also it would be consistent with either ENFP or ENTP.

Part 4: Being private emotionally is also somewhat dependent on other factors - both Ne-dom types actually can be very private emotionally in my experience, which is where I’m leaning at this point. I think it’s also worth looking into what sort of balance you need regarding people; I don’t typically find Ne-aux types to be super nurturing, and everyone needs some time alone so it’s worth considering that part outside of MBTI; plenty of extroverts under the MBTI system are fairly close to the middle when it comes to actual alone time requirements.

Part 5: Not liking conflict but liking to argue is often a hallmark of high Ti, and again, it’s really important to understand what people mean by efficiency. For example: Te users are perfectly happy to brute force a solution if it’s an urgent problem/one-time issue, because in their mind, the efficient thing is to get it done when it’s needed and a little busywork is fine as it saves a lot of time designing the perfect system. Ti users don’t think this way typically; they see most brute force solutions as inherently inefficient because they can’t be reused. (apologies for some of my notes on high Ti; today was a particularly difficult Te vs. Ti argument day at work)

With regards to looping: if you don’t have a confident typing of your baseline, I really do not believe it’s possible to reliably type what your loop behavior is. Which isn’t to say that you’re wrong about your stress behavior - withdrawing and overanalyzing is very common stress behavior and I would say it’s extremely likely and understandable in fact for an ENTP under stress - it’s just not a loop in the very narrow MBTI definition.

[thembtitruth]

Losing Temper

We Screwed Up. It was subtle, and we’re all paying for it.

It starts with what appears to be a benign proposition: the auxiliary function is equal in strength and preference to the tertiary function rather than stronger as MBTI suggests.

Now, at first, this looks like it means very little. After all, MBTI doesn’t suggest a very large difference between auxiliary and tertiary functions. And furthermore, you may recall INFJs reporting very intense Ti or ENTJs reporting very intense Se. Or ESFPs with their Te, or ISTPs with their Ni. However, this small difference has extreme consequences. Most notably: the destruction of Kiersian temperament. No more NFs, or STs. There are four sensing doms, four thinking doms, four feeling doms, and four intuitive doms. That’s all.

Some Historical Background:

Myers and Briggs were not psychologists like Jung. They were fans of Jung’s work who saw a use for his typology system: helping women figure out what jobs would best suit them in the US during World War II.

Jung’s system had only 8 types based on the eight possible dominant functions. He described how the dominant function suppressed the inferior function as well as how the other two functions were “somewhat” suppressed. But there is no mention of these other two functions being suppressed in different amounts, nor is there any way to logically assume such a thing from his model of type.

The introduction of temperament and of tertiary and auxiliary functions comes from the advent of the first MBTI test. The first letter is introduced by Jung, so that has to be there. The other three are designed to help zero in on the dominant function. Jung described Thinking and Feeling doms as “Judgers” since these functions are judging functions, and Intuitive and Sensing doms as “Perceivers” since these functions are perceiving functions. So it follows that Myers and Briggs would include a J-P axis. However, this J-P axis ended up not measuring what they meant for it to measure since Jung would describe INTPs as Judgers and ISTJs as Perceivers as socionics does. The middle two, the ones that give rise to temperament, are merely to find out which of the four possible cognitive functions is strongest. An ESTP, for example, will be very strong in Sensing with no significant preference in Thinking or Feeling, suggesting, since (s)he is an extravert and a perceiver, Se dominance.

These axes are tools designed to find which Jungian type a person belongs to. They are no more than that.

As a concession, Myers and Briggs did stumble onto something Jung wasn’t aware of. They stumbled onto the fact that ESFPs and ESTPs are not the same type. Both are Se doms, and neither is stronger in Thinking or Feeling, but one has Ti-Fe and the other has Te-Fi.

Here are some consequences:

This is a traditional MBTI chart rearranged in clusters of dominant function. Each type is placed horizontally and vertically adjacent to their ideal types, and their neighbor in the next cluster is their sister type. For example, ESTP (top right in the sensor group) neighbors ISTP (top right in the thinker group) because the two are sister types (STPs). Moreover, the Ts closer to the S group are STs and the Ns closer to the F group are NFs. It perfectly represents temperament and auxiliary/tertiary functioning exactly the way MBTI traditionally does.

However, if the tertiary and auxiliary functions carry the same weight, it is equally valid to arrange the types like this.

The types are not labeled and there is a reason for this. The labels will draw attention to the letters of the type, and the chart will seem preposterous. ESTPs and ENFJs sister types?? Ridiculous! But by leaving out the labels, the actual function relationships become clear and the type differences don’t seem so severe. ESTPs have auxiliary Fe and ENFJs have it dominant. ENFJs have Se auxiliary and ESTPs have it dominant. That qualifies them as sister types. Here are some others: ISTP-INFJ - both considered piercingly insightful into the personalities of others. Both come off mysterious and brilliant

INTP-ISFJ - both nonconfrontational, quiet, deeply compassionate but also caught up in their own worlds. Prone to irrational thinking when they’ve built a certain amount of their life around an idea.

ESTP-ENFJ - both highly popular, social, manipulative, commanding, fun-loving but stern, thrill seeking, and genuinely gooey when they give their hearts away

INTJ-ISFP - both quiet, artistic, sensitive creatures who appear externally to simply master their chosen skills and trades but inwardly devote much of their lives to contemplating the philosophical and emotional nature of life.

ESFJ-ENTP - both awkward, nerdy characters who love a bad pun and love to be anybody’s and everybody’s hero. Both constantly seek to make a difference in their immediate environment at all times with their casual humor, nonjudgmental attitude, and deep interest in others.

Further Emboldening

“Loop” is a concept that’s discussed a lot in Myers Briggs. Unlike Grip, which is a temporary state someone enters when stressed, Loop is something that persists for very long periods of time. Furthermore, many many people of some types, like INFJ, report being in Loop for most of their lives. INFJs are actually a good case study for the strength of the tertiary function. Many INFJs report extremely strong Ti that “conspires” with Ni against Fe. This is a big part of why so many say they are almost always “in Loop”.

The fact is, INFJs have very strong Ti. They always do. Reading the works of great INFJs like Spinoza, Jung, and Plato reveal this quite clearly. However, the strong Ti of INFJs is often discounted due to the highly spiritual, religious, or ridiculous nature of their blanket claims. Plato and his theory of Forms sound like a description of “math heaven”. Spinoza and his theory of God sound like baseless theology. Carl Jung even published extensively on the subject of ESP and the Collective Unconscious, which sounds like some kind of global mind telepathy crap. It is only those daring or curious enough to actually read their works who get to see that there is nothing irrational at all about the claims. INFJs are a lot like ENTPs in this way. They explore concepts in their heads logically looking for interesting consequences and conclusions, then present their ideas purposefully in the most challenging, heretical, nonsensical way possible. They want to show titularly the coolest aspect of what they’ve discovered. However, the INFJ, like the ENTP, actually just constructs unorthodox definitions for the kinds of spiritual or strange phenomena they describe, then logically explore the consequences of those definitions to create fascinating insights. Their theories are both internally and externally consistent, and such consistency is of paramount importance to any INFJ.

There’s no need to rely on an alien notion of “Loop” to explain why the Tertiary function is so strong in certain types. In truth, it’s strong in every type - as strong as the auxiliary function - and this happens in both healthy and unhealthy individuals.

On a related note, ENTPs are also equally as “Fe” as INFJs. INFJs’ feeler-ness is often cited in their a) humanitarian bent, b) tendency to counsel, and c) nonconfrontational attitude. ENTPs match in (a b) but not in (c). However, I believe INFJs also don’t truly exhibit (c). First, ENTPs are often known as the explainers or the debaters. They are known for their desire to change the beliefs of others, to challenge, to inspire. Socrates, for example, was a major social influencer who held a strong belief in inspiring people to think for themselves. This is universal among ENTPs. INFJs tend to have the same goal, but differ from ENTPs in a very specific way. ENTPs try to inspire people on a case by case basis in the form of debates, arguments, and public displays. INFJs prefer a longer term campaign of slowly convincing others. This is a simple Ne-Ni difference.