#especially when fandom lets these other ppl off the hook so easily

[bakerolivias-archived]

i understand the matt hate bc he actually does add very little to the storyline - other than contributing as a willing bloodbag for elena i guess?? - but like while i do think in terms of narrative he is bland as a character, in personality he's a huuuge catch. he's so sweet, kind, loyal, friendly, and trustworthy, and protective over his sister (before she died) and his friends... and it does help that he's the only male character on tvd (other than maybe jeremy) who didn't put female characters in life threatening situations or abuse them (side eyes d.amon, st.efan, kl.aus, and yes even s1 t.yler, although imo he has improved considerably and is nowhere near any of those other men in terms of morality)

and proceeding with that last train of thought matt was a bit unfair to caroline in their relationship (making their relationship feel inadequate as compared to his and elena's, talking about how he and elena used to make out - right in front of her and stefan?? and making her feel insecure, more so than she always was, especially considering her history of feeling lesser than elena... the list goes on lol) and jeremy did cheat on bonnie (mainly because the writers couldn't properly close his romantic storylines without jumping into a new one) but ya know i would take those kinds of guys any day over actual r.apists and sexual assaulters or murderers

[redteabaron]

Different anon… Here is the thing though, Drogo/Dany isn’t a parallel to sansan. People who make that comparison either lack severe reading comprehension, which is not surprising for this fandom, or they want to use it to validate sansan. (Tyrion was the older guy Sansa was forced to marry. Dany and Sansa have opposite journeys and their marriages are a part of that.) But sansan’s mirror is Jorah/Dany. Book!Jorah is an older guy who has a creepy obsession with a teenage girl. He dumps his trauma on her, he projects onto her. But he is also her advisor, her confidante early on, his protector. There are also the same BaTB elements sansans love to talk about. She even refers to him as her bear. But he was lusting after her ever since they met and then he assaulted her. He forced himself on her. She is uncomfortable with his actions, but she doesn’t possess the necessary language and she doesn’t understand consent (we know this because of how she frames her relationship with Drogo but also how she expected Lhazareen women to be ok, even be thankful for being married to their rapists, and her dubcon relationship with Irri) so she recontextualize what happened and chastise Jorah for kissing her not because she is a teenager and he shouldn't and she didn’t consent to but because she is his Queen. That's the language she has, so she expresses her discontent, disapproval, rejection with that. Sandor was verbally, psychologically, physically abusive to Sansa but he also occasionally protected her in King’s Landing. He lusted after her, made sexually inappropriate comments to an 11 year old child but he was also the only one in KL to have honest conversations with her. Then he assaulted her, held her at knife point. She was afraid of him kissing her, killing her, she had nightmare about the assault which she clearly registered as a sexual one despite what his fans claim his intentions were. Sansa has a habit of romanticizing/redefining these things. Sansa thinks Arys Oakheart was preferable, that he was kind because he beat her less hard than the other Kingsguard. She remembers Tyrion as someone who were kind to her, someone better than Joffrey even though he molested her and she had him in her nightmares too. She separates Littlefinger and Petyr in her mind because just like with the other men before him the thought of her sometimes-protector at the same time being her abuser is too much for her. Just like Dany she recontextualizes what the Hound did to her and turns the assault into a song to cope with it.

These two pairings has the same dynamic, the difference is fandom’s response to it. (The slight differences are that Dany had actual amiable feelings for Jorah -not romantic love or sexual feelings but friendly, sisterly love for him- and she as a Queen had a lot more agency than Sansa as a prisoner had. She isn't as powerless as Sansa, she could have easily banished him, punished him, even ordered his death.) But no one in fandom writes essay after essay why and how could and should Jorah and Dany end up together. It’s an outrageous suggestion. Dany is a main character, she is the heroine. She is a Queen. Why should she ever end up with someone as lowly as Jorah? Someone as old, as ugly as Jorah? But Sansa, meh she is not an important character. And she needs to be punished, first because she was a child making childish mistakes. Secondly, she is shallow, she refused to be raped by her older, ugly husband. So she needs to end up with an older ugly guy to humble her. Even when the author expressed his distaste of the trope of a noble girl running away with a lowly guy in medieval stories, nah that doesn’t matter here. Sansa being of high nobility, a princess won’t have any factor at all who she’s gonna end up with. They had to keep assuring themselves that she is not a main character so she could even end up with a villainous character, that she is not a Stark so she could end up with people who hurt/fight against her family. The hypocrisy of this fandom, and their selective reading is most clear when it comes to these two “couples”. Almost all sansans (whether it is the actual shippers or those who think it’ll happen because well it’s Sansa what else she’s gonna do besides being a reward bride for some hideous guy) hate Jorah/Dany (as they should) while trying to justify how and why Sansa should end up with the hound. Let's forget the abuse and pedophile, let's assume those never happened, even then it makes no sense. There is not a narratively satisfying way, a logical reason how Sansa could be with Sandor. But they ignore all that because it doesn't fit in with their vision, with their interpretation of the books and characters. Because admitting Sansa is a main character and more than a reward for their pedo fave has a ripple affect, it challenges all their theories, they all crumble. And they just can't let go of their 2 decades old theories, they just have to be right, they must be right. That's why they all took the show's ending as a personal offense, especially the QiTN Sansa. I just can't wait for the books!

Yeah, agreed. jorah and sandor are mirrors of each other. I mean I hope they both die without any glory or honor, personally. I don't really care if they have sacrificial deaths for the greater good - or whatever framing the show had intended - jorah and sandor were also whitewashed and made more pitiable/likeable.

Whenever dany x dr*go is used to validate literally ANY pairing, I am suspish. In particular when we acknowledge that dany absolutely couldn't consent - she was 13 iirc - and was sold off by her abusive brother to a man twice her age, but Sansa reimagining her trauma about Sandor's assault to something less traumatic is considered being hateful to Sandor because he's unattractive. (And I never really listen whenever ppl give me shit or deny it was assault; pertaining to my job, I'm pretty fucking aware what assault or intention-to-assault looks like, and I think most ppl do to, they just seem to lose awareness when it comes to their ships or certain characters).

I think it has to do with Sansa being the archetypal "Pretty Popular Girl" - the one who like feminine things, sort of fussy, likes feminine colors and just in general is feminine. She seems to remind people of the classic mean popular girl we saw popularized in 1990s-2000s high school movies - the one who gets her comeuppance in the end when the non-feminine girl somehow triumphs in whatever way, or she's the one who learns her lesson and stops being quite so feminine, or hooks up with a most-popular guy. The Mean/Pretty Popular girl has to be humbled in some fashion. Fans who don't like her, tend to view this as a way for her to pay for the error of her ways.

Like being a prisoner of war. Or not wanting to fuck tyrion. Or not wanting to run away with sandor.

I mean...all of asoiaf, beyond the politics and magic, is all about trauma and the human response to it - which is varied and depends on circumstances, personalities, and a lot of other things. One of the more vile things GOT did was whitewash jorah and tyrion the way they did imo. Jorah was a predator, circling Dany, regardless of whether she thought of him fondly, he just happened to not be violent towards her - she cries when he forces a kiss on her. Tyrion was a predator who molested her when he acknowledged she was a child "but he wanted her anyway". I've seen a lot of ppl react more sympathetically towards Dany. I haven't seen much recrimination against dany for refusing him the way we see sansa being hated for not wanting tyrion or sandor, hell, even petyr.

But - Sansa, imo, in the larger or at least circles of the fandom that have been around longer, is a more ideal whipping girl for the outlet a lot of ppl crave. See again the popular girl trope. She can't fight, she has no magical creatures, she is not a Chosen One of any kind. She has her wits and her ability to observe and adapt who has no choice but to navigate survival surrounded by people who have more agency and power than she does. That's it. I guess in a world of amazing abilities and magic and warfare, this is very boring, particularly when she doesn't weaponize her femininity or sexuality, where she's beautiful without being dangerous or magical or erotic. And I guess ppl feel that because of that, she needs to be punished for not being as extraordinary as she should be, OR, because she was the "Mean Popular Girl" (she wasn't) she must be humbled, and the ones to do it are the ones she refuses.

It's really delicious knowing they don't get "to have her" 🤢. Hopefully they just both fuck off to the ends of the world or die, idc they deserve zero thought.

[angel-with-a-pipette]

A lot of ppl say "Kairi is sassy in KH3" but hey, I can't really see that like those ppl. She's not sassy like kh2 or 2 or it's just Alyson couldn't make the sassy line sassy and more boring/emotional? Can u show me the lines that they're "sassy" or something? At least when someone tell me "nah she's not," I'll show him/her

I’m genuinely surprised you see a lot of people saying that because even Kairi fans have started going against her. Not to say that you are going against her by saying you don’t think she’s as sassy anymore! Sometimes it’s just heartbreaking to read people’s opinions on KH3 Kairi…

Now this matter is a little bit complex. I don’t believe Kairi is as sassy as she is in KH1 or KH2 which might have been what Nomura went for since he has this whole “growing up” theme going on. I also believe that it’s partly Alyson’s or the voice direction’s “fault” that Kairi sounds softer than before - which again, since Japanese representatives are deeply involved in the English dub despite certain parts of the fandom claiming they are ignorant of it, could be a conscious choice of Nomura.However, there are also scenes that show some of Kairi’s past sass which is why I want to propose this explanation:

There’s a time and place for everything - and sadly, there was little time for Kairi’s sass.

Now what do I mean by that? Fact is Kairi has very few scenes - if Gamer’s Little Playground really caught all of them, she’s only in one hour of the ten hours of KH3 cutscenes and that counts the full scenes she makes an appearance in, not her absolute on-screen time. And of these scenes, even fewer are suitable for some sass, naturally.

What kind of scenes does Kairi appear in?

She has two scenes in the beginning with Lea

She is seen with the whole cast at Yen Sid’s study as well as on the Keyblade graveyard in several scenes

She is alone with Sora on Destiny Islands and while they’re rewriting reality

She is seen shortly when being abducted by Xemnas and when killed by Xehanort

She is seen shortly when being abducted by Xemnas and when killed by Xehanort

Let’s start with her last scenes first. I think it’s obvious why she can’t be sassy when Xehanort kills her although I wish she was - they should have let her die heroically, defending Sora, metaphorically spitting into Xehanort’s face because that’s the tough cookie we saw in KH2 when she faced off Saix with Naminé. That doesn’t mean however that she should have been a war machine and that her behavior during the Xemnas encounter was OOC for her because as much Kairi jumps into the fight, she also gets intimidated rather easily. Remember in KH2 when she was suddenly surrounded by Heartless after she just jumped down a balcony to save Sora? Imagine how scared she must be with her shoulder in excruciating pain during a fight she herself described as “our toughest yet”. I think it makes perfect sense she didn’t pull out her sass (or any risky moves that would result in breaking her arm and rendering her useless for combat and more of a tool) in this scene.

She is seen with the whole cast at Yen Sid’s study as well as on the Keyblade graveyard in several scenes

There’s also sadly not much of a chance to bring it up when the whole cast is together. Now I wish she had more of an interaction with Sora and Riku especially since her character and her sass and teasing nature shines when she is alone with her boys, but the script didn’t give that to her. It’s a wonder she got to talk to Aqua as it is. The entire scene in Yen Sid’s tower was too crowded, too filled with character meetings that should have been spaced out over the game for the sake of the characters.What I think is kind of interesting though is that we have a scene where Kairi could have pulled out her sass on Sora, as she did several times in 1 and 2, but didn’t:

Here, the cast just talked about how Sora did NOT make Master in DDD - something we know is a very sore topic for him over the entirety of the game. Now what do these little assholes do when the biggest asshole of them all points it out?

They all laugh. It’s meant to be in good nature and Sora takes it like a champ, but truth of the story is that it makes the player very uncomfortable, knowing how much Sora has been picked on over the entirety of the game, by friends and enemies. In light of that, I think it’s very interesting that the camera doesn’t pan over to Kairi and Lea who stand behind Sora. Normally, the camera would pan over everyone, showing their laughter, and it does later on when Donald makes the Half-Pint joke:

I might be biased, but I don’t seem to hear Lea’s and Kairi’s chuckles and giggles during the first scene while I definitely hear both during the half-pint scene. So it’s interesting that this time, the camera pans over all of them and we hear them.

Of course, this is not definite proof, but it hints at Kairi (and Lea) not laughing at Sora’s expense - at a mean joke at Sora’s expense, too. And that, too, fits with Kairi’s past character as shown by @phoenix-downer​ waaay down in this post when she analyses Kairi asking Sora if he’s okay. It’s an ongoing theme with her to be concerned with Sora’s well-being and letting him off the hook when she suspects he needs a break of being teased could very well explain why she didn’t add to the others making fun of him. And boy, does he need a break from it.

She has two scenes in the beginning with Lea

Kairi absolutely sasses Axel in KH2 when he tries to abduct her (again - when he does succeed, she is actually in a position to struggle because he only grabs her wrist - he doesn’t twist her arm behind her like Xemnas does which could have easily popped out her shoulder - and who knows, maybe she was close to it). So why doesn’t she sass him here?

Just like with Sora, it’s not the time and place. Lea is troubled, Kairi tries being open with him but still struggles to get used to him and so both carry around some emotional baggage before they truly warm up to each other. And when they do? She does tease him!

Yes, Alyson’s delivery could be better here and I partly blame the voice direction because in 0.2, she proved she could sass Riku around just fine, but alas, this is the old Kairi. She absolutely teases Lea with his own catchphrase and Lea chuckles at her impersonation of him.

And yet, this is all she does, because Lea continues to say he is worried and Kairi knows he doesn’t need teasing, he needs encouragement, just like Sora does in the aforementioned scene. Kairi might be sassy, but she values the well-being of her comrades over being teasing and a little mean to them. In her eyes, this is the time to be supportive, not to nag.

She is alone with Sora on Destiny Islands and while they’re rewriting reality

Kairi’s shining moment of sass and teasing comes when she offers the paopu to Sora.

It’s a short moment and she softens pretty quickly because she knows that this is serious. This isn’t a joke, neither to her nor Sora, that’s why she grows more serious about it when she explains her motives, but it doesn’t take away from the fact that she kind of dares him to share one with her expression. She wants him to do it, she urges him on with her smile, “Do it!” it says, but ultimately the choice is his.

And if you want to read between the lines, she has a very similar expression on here:

Now, I know nothing about how Risa delivered the scene, but I can absolutely imagine if Hayden did this, she would have delivered it with sass. After all, Kairi told him he’d be safe with her. Why is he surprised? ;) Especially since as @phoenix-downer points out in the same above mentioned post, she turned the Declaration of Protection on its head back during the paopu scene and now underlines that yes, she did it. She kept her promise. Literally “told” him so!

TL;DR: 

There’s a time and place for everything and Kairi’s time was cut too short to give her a lot of opportunities to be sassy

She loves to sass people, but she also makes sure they’re safe physically and emotionally and won’t beat down on someone who needs emotional support, thus keeping her sass in check

The English voice direction (possibly the Japanese one as well) doesn’t do her favors despite some scenes clearly being written with her sass in mind

She has sassy moments, but they get lost because so much is happening around them and the voice direction…

I know I went a little overboard with this, but I hope this answered your question!