#i am extremely curious for folks who had theories about this being a dream vs reality: does this excerpt change things?

[consultingjedi]

the sleep no more excerpt dropped, and i… have a lot of thoughts. too many thoughts. nearly two thousand words of thoughts under the cut (though half of those are quotes).

!!! huge spoilers for all of the october daye series !!!

(some details referenced from the wiki. thank you wiki contributors, you're amazing.)

> The two Moving Days, when the least among us—those ranked even lower than changelings like myself—are free to pack up their lives and move along to their next home.

whee, starting off immediately fucked up. the moving day description is very "the exception that proves the rule" – apparently fae can only leave at this time.

also, no doubt that changelings' lots are even worse now than they were before.

> Oberon himself has granted his blessing

has he? has he, titania? is he even around, by choice or otherwise?

> the levels of hospitality required by Oberon’s decree and not a crumb or comment more

color me unsurprised that amandine holds to the mere letter of the law and no more.

> I felt shamefully as if I held some actual station in our house.

toby fought so hard for recognition. this is a triple punch of her no longer having that recognition, still wanting that, not feeling that she deserves it.

> one of the children glanced back over her shoulder with glossy eyes and a quivering lip, making me wonder whether they had first sought sanctuary in my uncle’s halls. Fools.

well, sylvester (or some… facsimile of him) is probably around and acting terribly. rest in (hopefully temporary) peace, sylvester's character development. i wonder how much of this is luna, though.

> The bread was rich with herbs he had grown himself, and I sometimes suspected he enchanted it in some small way, to give petitioners luck on the journey yet ahead of them.

simon <3 also the back door = simon's space, front door = amandine's space is… interesting.

> removed changeling children from the household they were born to serve was not a violation of the rules, but it was unseemly at the very least, and unwise by any measure.

i will yell about this more later but. sounds bad!

> the comforting scent of smoke and roses.

on the one hand: comfort in august (and maybe simon's) magic scents! on the other hand. roses, mm, mixed connotations those have had.

> The word was devoid of context in my mind, and I opened my eyes, blinking into the dimness. What was a lawn?

and here we have the first (maybe only) evidence of leak through from the… non-titania world, whatever that may be. at the very least toby knows some things she shouldn't.

> thank Oberon and his beautiful bride

bride? singular? titania what are you doing…

> There is no shame in standing by the rules of your house.

honestly this feels like the most out of character thing for toby yet. toby, breaker of rules and shirker of authority, expressing obedience? oof.

> My blood and magic clearly felt the same, for they had never been inclined to illusions, however hard I struggled to master and call them forth. Nothing in me wished to lie.

this is… a lot. does toby know she's dochas sidhe, not daoine? if she does, does she know what that means for her in terms of magical strengths and abilities?? and "nothing in me wished to lie" – hahahah, except for the huge lie of her entire fake life that titania has forced upon her.

> The kitchen is and has always been Father’s domain. [...] I have always felt most comfortable in the kitchen and the kitchen garden.

simon and toby <3 <3 <3

> I am better left behind the scenes, protected and anonymous. Father sees that need in me, and has always done his best to nurture it.

whiplash! ouch, terribly, no good, very bad. i wonder how much of this on simon's part is an attempt to protect toby-the-changeling from the awfulness of titania's faerie, and how much of it is the changelings-as-servants mindset from that very same… (there is some interesting similarity here of toby not really enjoying the limelight/public speaking/etc, but she's no shrinking violet by any means.)

> A direct descendant of Melia, then, most likely, only two generations removed from Maeve’s dishonor.

i have many questions. is this a reference to a specific act on maeve's part or something else? a real action twisted into something else by titania or something made up entirely?

> The children of the Firstborn are meant to know better, to be better as an example for all of Faerie.

here, i wonder how much of this is amandine versus how much of it is titania.

> neither of which I was authorized to give

the difference between toby in her own home providing shelter to so many, and here in amandine's tower not having any autonomy… ow.

> It would have pained me to lie to them. I would have done it anyway, of course. I knew my duty almost as well as I knew my place.

no comment. just… fucked up.

> We dwell here, between demesnes, because [amandine] has no desire to guide or guard a holding, only to live in peace with her family and be left alone.

well, that doesn't seem like it's changed. though obviously amandine's idea of peace doesn't usually jive well with anyone else's happiness.

> Mother had taught me they were the best Maeve could do in imitating her better sister, and should be pitied but never trusted.

ah, the usual Yikes(™).

> “Golden Shore,” said Maia. “We have heard that such as we can be welcome there.” [...] it was the best any changeling born without a promised place could hope for.

interestingly, golden shore seems to be approximately equivalent to earlier canon. maybe worse in reputation, but they did take in changelings and supply food. 

> As [amandine] also refused to allow any member of her family to shop in mortal lands, we had to purchase our eggs from Golden Shore

first, wow amandine you controlling asshole. second, i bet this extends not just to shopping but to leaving the summerlands entirely. makes me wonder if titania is primarily exerting control over the summerlands and/or the kingdom of the mists, but not the rest of faerie? even for one of the Three, this must be quite an exertion of power (though it likely depends on the physicality + how many people are caught up in it, of course).

> had not Maeve so cruelly cut us off from the deeper lands of Faerie.

ahaha but oberon did that, not maeve. perhaps this is the 'dishonor' referred to earlier.

> the [changeling] children they claim rarely last a handful of seasons. They break.

fuuuuuucked up. 

> “Your kindness is noted, and will be remembered,”

toby's still toby, even after it all 😭

> The lives of changelings were short and brutal, better than humans only because they could see the glories of Faerie, worth less than both humans and fae in every other possible way.

did i say fucked up? well. fucked up. and the degree to which toby has internalized this is extra fucked up.

> Who was I, orchestrated, wanted, and beloved, to pretend at understanding what they suffered? [...] If Mother tired of me and cast me out before August was ready to establish a household of her own, I had little doubt that I wouldn’t survive the year. [...] Mother has made sure I knew that well and truly.

toby, the fact that you have a legitimate concern about this directly contradicts what you just said. subconsciously she knows that amandine doesn't love her. (also, the later offer from the hamadryad for toby to leave with them is just. even strangers can see there's a fucked up dynamic here.)

> I had never lived a day outside this tower, and Oberon willing, I never would.

hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha (sarcastic). again, though, really reinforcing (via steel chair to the face) how much this is not our toby.

> My mother, Amandine, is daughter to Oberon himself, and my father, Count Torquill, keeps no noble Court because he is sworn alchemist to the Rose of Winter

first, interesting that amandine is being open about her firstborn status now. second, simon no :((((((((. third, oh fuck me sideways evening may be awake. (though, interestingly, if this is a dream world, she may still be more 'real' than other folks if she's asleep but sharing the dream-reality.) (also, 'rose of winter' – evening may also be open about her firstborn status? presumably because titania is around to favor her daughter.)

> I was simply a girl who knew her place, who was content where she was, who understood her limitations.

[screams]

> More tired than I should have been after such a brief encounter

i wonder how much of this is emotional, versus how much might be toby being tired from pregnancy?

> My name, as I have now stated twice, is October. That is all.

[SCREAMS LOUDER] did i say steel chair? sorry, i meant a wrecking ball. toby is always, always, always introduced as october daye, the knight of lost words. often with additional titles. she is never just october.

> My mother’s trick is in changing the balance of someone’s blood.

so toby knows what her mother can do, but does she know what she herself is capable of? i bet not, if amandine is trying to keep her contained.

> they rendered our social customs unstable and unsustainable, for any changeling child could get their hands upon one such and remake themselves in Titania’s image without intervention or consent.

in titania's image, hmm? also interesting, this is just like the early rhetoric around hope chests as being items of legend, unavailable to modern fae.

> Her services are but one of the many reasons changelings are better off within the Court system rather than hiding in hovels with parents who should have known better than to bear them without.

so much internalized hatred for changelings! also, amandine openly using her power in addition to being known as firstborn – doubly wild.

> I will never marry, never have a household or children of my own.

haha. hahahahahhaha. but. also. toby, i weep. she's going to be so fucking confused.

> Each noble house and each among the Firstborn is asked to do their duty, to provide a pair of hands to press into the service of greater Faerie.

this is both uhhh kind of gross and so extremely titania-esque. this hatred of changelings as lesser and yet also 'ready made servants.' forcing everyone to have kids. yikes.

> whose daughter, January, still dwelt in her father’s halls in Briarholme.

interesting, given we know jan's dad is dead and has been for almost a century. perhaps this means that january inherited the place, or that in this version of faerie her dad is… someone else?

> A pureblood could no more offer insult to a changeling than a cat could look at a king

as pointed out by many on the discord server… a cat can look at a king. but, apparently, not in titania's faerie.

> strong against iron, which would be the preferred means of disciplining an unruly commoner who somehow offended a noble.

… if i recall correctly, iron exposure is considered torture normally? and now it's used as common discipline? fucked up!

> If August left without me, my death would be the likely outcome.

hmm. yikes! i would like to think that simon and august would not let that happen, but between titania and amandine… to reiterate: yikes.

> I slumped into one of the uncomfortable couches Mother insisted were appropriate for the sitting room

it amuses me that amandine has shit taste in interior decorating.

> Something was terribly wrong, if Faerie’s children were so afraid of their own homes, their own places. I frowned to myself, a private expression. Such thoughts were unbefitting. 

more cracks in the wall! toby cares, and toby knows this is fucked up, even if both her conditioning and her conscious mind are trying to tell her otherwise.

> Nothing was wrong. Nothing could be wrong, not in Titania’s Faerie. [...] To fail her was to fail Faerie.

[screams EXTREMELY loudly] this is going to go so well (dripping sarcasm).

closing thoughts: toby is in quite a bad place, but she's still herself underneath it all, and there are already some cracks showing. amandine's situation may be different but her attitude towards toby and the rest of her family clearly hasn't changed from treating them as playthings that she owns. titania seems to be... as fucked up as expected.

honestly i can't wait for this book i am so excited to see how this all catches on fire.

[orionsangel86]

Can we talk about the endgame human-cas vs angel-cas argument? I find it unsettling that a lot of folks think Cas needs to become human; for his good, or Dean's, or narrative. I understand that Cas needs and wants to get away from the other angels, their jobs, their world - but why have to be human? And people who say "I hope he doesn't become an archangel, how awful for him!" Well I think Cas enjoys being an angel - but he's his own sort of angel. He seems to want his powers and identity. Hmph.

It has taken me ages to answer this ask as I’ve been hesitant about it for ages since it will most likely blow up in my face somehow. So look, I’ve answered it here but I also have a disclaimer on my blog that I want you to read because after all the Cas related drama against meta writers last year I need some sort of protection okay:

http://bluestar86.tumblr.com/CasDisclaimer

Please read the link if you expect to be offended by my answer (and if you’re just curious of course).

A lot of other great meta writers have already tackled this, but seeing as you have come for my thoughts specifically I won’t link other posts on the risk of upsetting you. You are clearly already aware of the various discussions that turned into arguments that turned into a huge wank fest so I’m not going to feed into that. 

The problem with the human Cas vs Angel Cas endgame debate,is that it is all just speculation, none of us know what way the writers of the show will choose to take Cas’sstory line. We can only interpret the canon story we have been provided with atthis point. Anything I speculate about future event, could turn out to be totally wrong. But its still fun to speculate anyway. I just want to stress that I am not saying that by disagreeing with me anyone is WRONG. We all have our own opinions after all. 

There are a lot of reasons why people might feel like beinghuman is the best fit and most satisfying endgame for Castiel. There is also alot of evidence in the show that suggests that this is the way Cas’s story isgoing. I don’t particularly think this has anything to do with Dean or destieleither, though there will always be people who do think this.

For starters, the whole concept is a well known TV trope.The immortal character who seeks to be human? Yeah it’s been done before, and whilst this isn’t necessarily a good thing, it is a commonthing that we have been conditioned for years to expect in basic storytelling.The fact that this often comes attached to the love trope that said immortalgives up immortality so they can be with a human is just an added bonus forDestiel shippers.  

So even without exploring the evidence within the show, thevery idea itself is already a favourable one for most people because it fits astandard storytelling trope that resonates with people. It is a comment on thepower of humanity, and also makes us all feel a bit better to think about theidea that an immortal being would prefer to be human than continue to havetheir godlike power and eternal life (because humanity itself is supposedly agreat gift).

(I should clarify here that I don’t believe that Cas’s fallfrom grace should be connected to Destiel and that Dean would love and be withhim regardless of whether he were angel or human.)

There is every possibility that Supernatural may go againstthe grain here, but the evidence in the show suggests otherwise. Castiel’sstory since his origins in season 4 has been that he is the angel that fallsfor humanity. His love for humanity and continued choice of humanity over hisangelic brethren makes the idea that he would eventually join humanity as oneof them poetic. I think that is why this is the most popular endgame theorywithin fandom over everything else: itis poetic.

Humans generally enjoy poetic stories, as well as ironicones. They are far more satisfying. It feels like the natural conclusion for acharacter such as Castiel, whose journey of self-discovery and acceptance hasoften had him questioning his own place in the world and exactly what kind ofcreature he is meant to be. This is his continued theme throughout his entirerun on the show. The idea that the show would end with him remaining in hiscurrent state, or even elevated to something such as an archangel just feelswrong for his development. I can understand why people would consider that “awful”for Castiel. You say that he “seems to want his powers and identity” but youmiss the point the show is trying to explain to us, that his identity is not tied to his powers. In fact, in the later seasons, it can be argued that hispowers have held him back from really understanding who he really is:

I know that there is a big split here in fandom, but I dofeel that those fans who desperately want Cas to stay an angel have anemotional attachment to the idea because it resonates with them on a personal levelthat he is currently “different” so for him to become “normal” feels like aninsult to those fans. It is the same way those fans who view him as asexualfeel I believe. These are delicate issues. When you want a character to be likeyou and you identify with them so greatly, for the show to then fundamentallychange that character in any way feels like a big hit to you personally. But Ithink this is why there needs to be some detachment between what we personallyfeel attached to, and Castiel’s own story that the show itself (via subtext,narrative structure, and text in certain places) is telling us.

(I should also disclaim here that I am in no way against asexual readings of Castiel and don’t want this to come across this way, as there is certainly room for that interpretation in the text - my own personal view on Cas’s sexuality is “undefinable” )

Aside from the narrative poetry of Cas’s eventual fall fromgrace to humanity, I think the reason a lot of us believe it is the naturalconclusion to his story arc is just the sheer amount of evidence and textualunanswered questions that seem to be leading this way.

There are the parallels to Anna early on, and how it isimplied heavily that he also desires those things that she does.

The constant questions that Cas is never able to answer:

“As what Castiel? As anangel? Or a man?” (no answer) -  9x06Heaven Can’t Wait

“I am an angel.” “andyou’re okay with that?” “If we’re going to war, I need to be ready” (hardlya yes) -  9x09 Holy Terror

“Who are you?” (noanswer) “What are you now? A penitent?” “I’mnothing” (not exactly positive) – 9x14 Captives

“No! If I’m gonna die,I want answers. Like, who are you now? Like, you’re obviously not an angel ofthe Lord. And what about all of this walking the earth like Caine from “KungFu” crap? Cleaning up Heaven’s messes. How many more rogue angels are there outthere? And, what are you gonna do once you’re done with all that? Go back toHeaven? Please. The angel formerly known as Hannah has restored order up top.Smoothest it’s run since God cut the ribbon on the pearly gates. So tell me,Castiel, truly, what is your mission now?” (Cas told Metatron to shut up –but Metatron had a point) – 10x18 Book of the Damned

“Brother? Ha! What areyou?” “W-what? I’m an angel of the Lord.” “That so? ‘Cause, near as I can tell,when you have to choose between heaven and the Winchesters …” “You choosethem.” 11x02 Form and Void

Then to go along with these questions, Castiel himself hadsome very interesting conversations. In 9x11 the talk with Sam about peanutbutter and how Castiel used it to describe the things he missed about beinghuman was particularly enlightening for those of us who now believe that this is his endgame. He basically called his angel-hood “disgusting”.

When he spoke to Daniel at the start of season 10, Danieljust wanted to stay on earth and experience humanity. The conversation he hadwith Hannah was most interesting. Remember that Daniel was a Cas mirror here. Aglaringly obvious Cas mirror:

Hannah: “You are anangel, once and forever.”

Daniel: “Droppedunwillingly…Unknowingly…Into a strange land, a land that, as it turns out,celebrates the free, the individual. For the first time in thousands of years,I have choices. And with each choice… I begin to discover who I really am.”

Hannah: “This isnonsense.”

Daniel: “Because theydon’t teach you this in heaven? Perhaps they should. Then you would understandwhy it’s worth fighting for… What I’ll never understand is why angels won’tacknowledge the wisdom to be found down here.”

Hannah: “What wisdomis to be gained from humans?”  

Daniel: “I’m notspeaking to you.”

Hannah (To Castiel): “Doyou understand what he’s…” (Cas never answered, but it was obvious hedid)

This whole conversation imo is foreshadowing Cas choosing tostay on earth with the humans, and when this is then followed up with this:

Castiel: “Well,perhaps I’ve been down here with them for too long. There’s seemingly nothingbut chaos. But not all bad comes from it. Art. Hope. Love. Dreams.”

Hannah: “But t-thoseare human things.”

Castiel: “Yes.”

It implies that Castiel is longing for the humanexperience.

Later on in 10x03 Cas textually states his reasoning forwanting to stay an angel however:

“You know, only humanscan feel real joy, but … also such profound pain. This is easier.”

He said it in relation to Dean’s choosing to stay a demon,but he understood exactly. Cas longs for the human experience, but he can’thandle the pain of it, hence his choice currently to remain an angel (eventhough it isn’t what he really desires).

This sentence by Cas was a direct response to what he saidearlier in 9x23:

“I just want to be an angel”

Because when Cas said that, he was mourning the death ofDean. It was the easy choice for him. It was less painful to remain an angelthan to go back to being human. It’s not good enough evidence imo that Cas shouldremain an angel for his endgame because he said it when he was deeply mourningthe loss of Dean and it was framed extremely negatively by the show and thenwas countered continuously in early season 10 in the subtext of every conversation he had with Hannah.

Most of these examples came out of seasons 9 and 10 however, but as I always say, the endgame arcs for all the three main characters were laid out in seasons 8 - 10 and Dabb is expanding on those concepts. One of the interesting things from the later seasons and Dabb era that I have noticed is just how little Castiel uses his powers now. Most of the time we either see him fighting normally, or trying out his new hunter knowledge to solve a case. What I truly believe Dabb’s goal with Cas’s endgame is to show Cas that he is wanted and needed and loved and useful without his powers. Because it has been tied heavily to his depression arc in seasons 11 and 12 that Cas doesn’t feel useful or powerful enough. The whole point is for Sam and Dean to show Cas that they want him with them regardless of how powerful he may or may not be. For Cas to become empowered, without literal powers. 

The main issue that we have with Cas being powered up, is that for character development purposes, it makes no sense. How is Cas supposed to learn his lessons that way? If he becomes this super powerful being? How is that gonna help him get over his issue with only being ‘useful’ or a ‘hammer’ or to stop him obsessing about his ‘missions’? What meta writers tend to scream about is that Cas doesn’t yet seem to realise that it’s not his powers that make him important to the boys, but just HIM. We have not had this clearly resolved in the show, and it won’t be, until the damage that was done in season 9 is finally healed. Cas has gone through a fundamental change since the end of season 8 and this arc is not yet resolved. Powering him up even further will only hinder this character development arc, not assist it. 

Remember how in 12x19 Cas made so many terrible decisions because he was so desperate “for a win” for both Dean and himself? Remember how in 13x05 we were screaming because Dean just wanted a win and then Cas showed up? Remember how in 13x06 Dean told Sam explicitly that Cas was his win?

Cas doesn’t need to be powerful for him to be needed and wanted by Dean (and Sam), but HE STILL DOESN’T KNOW THIS. NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN MADE CLEAR TO CAS. We still haven’t had a resolution to Cas’s own issues that were made so very clear in 12x09. That he doesn’t feel competent enough on his own.

This is why to power Cas up even further, or to keep him with his grace in tact, doesn’t really seem to fit the story structure. Cas needs to learn that its not his powers that make him special, its fundamentally HIM. It’s what he used to face the empty entity, its what brings a smile to Dean’s face whenever he’s around, it’s what made Jack choose him as his father (though not made explicitly clear, it is heavily implied that it was Castiel’s goodness that made Jack choose him - because Jack hardly needs protecting - more just the right kind of guidance).

It’s my opinion that Cas will choose to become human at endgame (or before who knows) because his grace is holding him back. Its not even about his obligations to heaven or the Winchesters, I personally don’t think he should lose all ties with all the angels, because I think there is still a lesson that the remaining angels need to learn here and that Cas will be the one to teach them (along with Jack). Its about Cas’s inner struggles and his personal growth, rather than the relationships he has with others. Its about Castiel finally asking himself “Who am I?” “What do I want?” “Where do I belong?” and answering those bloody questions. Perhaps he can answer those questions and keep his grace, its possible sure, but then all of that talk about human things in season 10 wouldn’t have made much sense, and Cas will always be missing something fundamental. The human things that he never got to really enjoy last time. The human pleasures that Dean revels in so much. I think it would be damn tragic to reach the end of his story and not have him indulging in the things we KNOW canonically he longs for. 

Because as the Empty Entity said in 13x04

I have tiptoed through all your little tulips, your memories, your little feelings yes, I know what you hate, I know who you love, I know what you fear...

But remember that feelings, that love and fear, along with hope and dreams are human things and Castiel shouldn’t have to be always torn in two. Right now, that’s what he is. Half an angel, half a man, lost and conflicted. As far as I am concerned, Castiel becoming human answers all the questions the story has been asking him, and provides him with a level of happiness and satisfaction that he could never have whilst still an angel. For his own personal growth arc, imo its the only logical outcome.

I’m sorry if this isn’t what you wanted to hear nonny, but I am just trying to interpret this show logically with the information I have been given, and that all points to a human Cas endgame. As I said at the start of this post. I could be wrong. I could be interpreting all the wrong signals here, but the thing is, we meta writers are not a hive mind, and we sure as hell disagree on a LOT of things about this show, as we all have our own ways of interpreting things, but the majority of meta writers I follow also believe that Cas’s endgame is to be human and we all came to that conclusion individually based on information the show presented. Yes we could all still be wrong, and no I am not saying that any other opinions are incorrect because, and I stress this, all interpretations are valid. But please don’t get upset that I don’t agree with you over this. We just see things differently. You did ask for my opinion after all, so I gave it.