#i'd have killed madoc honestly

[bannedfrombookclub]

Some boys will let you get a cat even when they don't like cats, and some boys will allow the guy who orchestrated the murder of almost his entire family in a coup and would do it again and also stabbed you personally in the gut to live just because he's your dad and you feel conflicted about it.

[orionsangel86]

Figured I'd continue this as an ask so we don't keep debating on that poor person's post! Anyways, regarding Neil's edgelord tendencies:

What also throws me off about The Sandman Companion's rape interpretation of both Morpheus' marriage to Calliope and his relationship with Nada (it states that the women's story must be WORSE not better, than the version men tell, and pretty much the only way it could get worse is rape...) is that Neil... isn't shy about SAYING "rape" in the text. He doesn't hide what Madoc does to Calliope, nor what the book version of Desire did to Unity (which thankfully got changed to consensual in the show). So why this roundabout stuff with Morpheus? If the character being evil and abusive is supposed to be a core character trait, why relegate it to an obscure, if still canon, guide text?

My hope is that these particular edgelord interpretations are the work of the other co-author, Hy Bender. Alternately, I wonder if Neil was trying to retcon his own work at the time. I have no idea how the grimdark "Morpheus killing himself was good, actually" ending was received at the time, but I could easily see a situation where, like now, the fans look at the ending and go "yikes". Perhaps Neil was doing his best to cover and go "um well ACTUALLY you should be glad he finally offed himself, see how horrible he was!" even when it went against his original intent for those previous issues.

Like now, he might be able to look back and realize the nasty implications. But I could easily see younger-Neil as an author who just released their long-planned ending to a text scrambling for cover when it doesn't get the expected reception.

That's a TOTAL GUESS though. Like I said, I have zero idea how people felt about the ending in the 90s.

Ooof every new thing you tell me about that book makes me shudder and recoil.

Honestly I have no idea what Neil's intentions were with signing off on those interpretations, and I still struggle with understanding his intentions for the ending of the Sandman, other than the obvious being a "what NOT to do if you are feeling depressed and incapable of improving your life", which sometimes gets a bit lost amongst all the misery and angst with zero pay off throughout the Kindly Ones. Do we know what the initial reception was to the ending of the Sandman when it was first released though? Because hasn't it always been critically acclaimed highly praised and considered one of the all time best graphic novels ever published? It's Neil's Magnum Opus.

I think we have both now mentioned more than a few times that the 90s were a totally different era with a totally different mentality to today. A lot of the stuff in the Sandman comics are eyebrow raising because the different mentalities of the era are so obvious to me. The general portrayal of women in particular is pretty um... outdated and on my first read of the Calliope issue I visibly recoiled at that panel where she is raped by Madoc - because I legit had never seen something like that depicted so graphically before in that artform. But you are right to point out that if Neil wanted Morpheus to be viewed as an abuser and a rapist, then he would have just put it in the comics. Desire is a rapist, and yet people still love Desire.

The show is a much better indication of where Neil's intentions currently lie. The removal of any graphic scenes of sexual violence towards women was absolutely the right decision. Dream is a far more likeable character in the show (and I still like comic!Dream even with his somewhat cold demeanor!) I could scream all day about the absolutely brilliant changes in the Calliope episode which come across so romantic and soft that fans are legit shipping them together (which I don't think anyone can possibly do with their comic counterparts). I think the change in the Dolls House to Desire and Unity's whole situation also has huge implications for Desire's character which fascinates me. In the comic it is literally a one time thing where Desire rapes her while she sleeps and probably never considers her again outside of keeping an eye on their child as part of their scheme. The show however indicates that Desire took the time to get to know Unity, to woo her, and to enter into an apparently long term relationship with her in the Dreaming.

I 100% believe they are going to change the story in Tales in the Sand and I think that they left it out of season 1 because it's going to be a huge indication on how the show will deviate from the comics further. I hope they do away with all that stupid virginity stuff (because I'm sorry but shoving a rock up your vag to break your hymen is NOT losing your virginity and that particular part always baffles me. Dream doesn't care about virginity? Well good for him but like, she's still a virgin anyway? Otherwise you are legit stating that this poor girl lost her virginity to a slightly sharp dick shaped rock? Come on people I thought this was obvious? There are better ways to indicate to your audience that your main character doesn't have a virginity kink. Sorry for ranting about that but it really pissed me off when I first read it because it was SO STUPID).

Basically, whatever the Sandman Companion stated is gonna be forgotten about completely when the show releases its new episodes and we see show!Dream be even more the romantic hero. I think we can be confident that any modern interpretations will do away with these 90s edgelord interpretations and thats the best thing we can ultimately hope for. I won't let it tarnish my opinion of comic!Dream though, because there is more than enough evidence in the comics that contradicts some bullshit interpretation that makes no sense.

[howellerino]

The Wicked King

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD

SPOILERS AHEAD

FIRST OF ALL- THIS BOOK DESTROYED ME

Locke. I WANT HIM DEAD. Why has no one fucking killed him yet? HOW DARE HE EXISt.

Taryn. Kill her too. Honeslty, she is the biggest backstabber I have ever read about. You decide to trust her for a second and she breaks your heart. UNBELIEVABLE. I have ever read about a more disfunctional family.

Vivian. She pretends what Taryn does is no big deal and it frustrates the hell out of me. As an older sister- if one of them was acting like this, I'd notice and do something about it. She basically has power that she has no interest in using and I'm OVER IT.

Madoc. THIS FUCKING GUY. I find myself hating him and wanting his approval at the same time?? He is a HORRIBLE man, he killed Jude's parents but still, I find myself hoping that their relationship can be fixed. When he oficially 'declared' her an enemy, I was so... shocked. Horrible guy, great character. I see him being the antagonist for the next book. He craves power too much and my prediction is someone's gonna kill him. Maybe someone we don't expect.

The Ghost. WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT. I WAS HOPING TO SEE HIM AS MAYBE INTERESTED IN JUDE AND BAM. broke my heart a little to be honest.

Jude. J U D E. Reading about everything she had to handle regarding the kingdom, and family issues, training, spying, it EXHAUSTED ME. Like emotionally. When she's climbing up wall to reach Cardan and she just wonders and thinks about letting go, shit I FELT that. I KNEW she was making a mistake letting Cardan go, but fuck - I was blindsided. I'm still a little bit in shock. She's gonna have a hell of a lot of trouble living in the mortal lands. You know what? I HOPE she finds a good mortal guy who loves her. YOU DESERVE TO BE HAPPY. Also- it bothered and pissed me off so much that after A WHOLE YEAR of poisoning herself, when she needed it, it no longer worked???? Also THE SCENE WHERE SHE KILLS GUYS WITH AN AXE AND THEN HEALS HERSELF. I don't think I had ever reach such a bad ass scene. And i've read my fair share. I really appreciate that we get to see her evolve i to who she is. That she's not just a fighter and a survivor but smart and cunning.

Cardan. W H A T T H E F U C K. I said for the last book, we needed better character development for him and BITCH WE GOT IT. I was NOT expecting ANYTHING he did. I do hope he doesnt go around just murdering people. I respect the hell out of him priding himself in not killing. He HAS to have some sort of plan and I just hope it works out. He's risking too much. He might be liking this game of being king. Maybe he sent Jude to the mortal world to protect her? Maybe he has no intention on ever letting her return? I doubt thay because well, there IS a second book. I just hope he knows what he's doing.

Jude and Cardan. THESE TWO ARE MARRIED. And still Cardan can't decide if he fucking hates her or not. ITS NOT THAT HARD, JUST DECIDE!! When he proposed I has like 'hm okay' but then he exiles her and i was SHAKEN TO MY CORE. I don't know what he expects out of this. He asked for her trust. But everyone you trust in this book ends up breaking your heart and I can't really take it. He needs to deal with Madoc and so many other things, jesus christ.

Final thoughts. I wonder how much time would've passed between the end of this book and the start of the other. I most definitely see Cardan sending Jude a letter or Roach to tell her important things. To keep an eye on her. Maybe he crowned her to give her a false sense of security and planned on leaving her forever. Maybe he couldn't let her go just yet and bound her in a way that made her his. Madoc has some tricks up his sleeve. As a father figure, I want him to redeem himself but I know he wont. Jude is gonna do something. She's not gonna sit all day watching the telly, moping. It's JUDE, she's gonna find a way. And when she does, we're all gonna be shook.

Rating: 4.5/5 ⭐(I'm honestly just pissed Locke isn't dead)

P.S. Just someone please kill Locke and Taryn, I begg youuu