#i'm watching s4a

[beachytablecloth]

I think s4 was really sexy for putting them as equals and harvey being so attracted to (and in love with) mike as to make him look stupid (mike being hot in a three piece suit + harvey choosing mike [doesn't work for him anymore!] over his literal client???? in front of that client's face???) and for mike thinking for a brief second harvey was here to have sex with him (''flowers die. I thought I'd bring something better. me'' mike: 👁️👁️ + that sexually charged handshake) and for domestic-living marvey after rachel cheats on mike (ugh and harvey over-correcting to put mike above his own wants, as he always lands on). AND I'm probably forgetting things but.

making them rivals who still gravitated toward each other, still loved playing with each other, respected each other, CHOSE each other nonsensically, got to go toe-to-toe with each other on an even footing for the first time, no mike being the subordinate, all the juicy sexual tension it brought...honestly one of the sexiest arcs for them I think.

not to mention it allowed for the pre-s4 harvey asking mike out because he wasn't going to see him anymore. I'm ill!!!

bestie you are so right and so valid for this. the problem is it hurts my fragile little heart to see them fight. so usually when i get to s4A i just fast forward through most of it, stopping to watch all the juicy marvey scenes LOL. and before i know it they’ve made up and mike is back at pearson specter where he belongs :’)

[aoneko-lee]

I was recently watching Etho's UHC episodes and the difference between how he played at that time and the life series now caught my attention (I'm not talking about PvP skills or anything like that). He was much more competitive, even though he wasn't just playing to win, he loved to arm himself, hunt, and eliminate other players. Nowadays he simply plays with his friends, hopes to survive, and maybe kill some opponents while he's at it.

Perhaps he has matured and is just tired of deadly games, maybe he isn't good at dealing with the dynamics of the life series, since it is an extremely social game and he is better at surviving alone. Just remember how his best performances at UHC (apart from the S4a where he was the only survivor of the winning team) were when he was on his own, he placed in first or second 3 or 4 times, if I remember correctly.

I'm sure this has been debated countless times and I don't think it's possible to determine the truth without Etho himself talking about it. I was just thinking about this and decided to comment.

[maya-matlin]

hi ashton!!! <333 I'm asking you this on anon because I don't wanna get hate I do ship all three ships lol I watched a barchie video and on it a barchie was like "I love how planned they were" and etc and maybe I'm blind asf but planned??? other than a few looks, throwaway comments and etc to cause drama for bughead and varchie it wasn't planned at all imo?? they barely interacted in s2b, S3 and s4a (I'm only talking about those seasons because this video was after 417 lol) and yeah they kissed in 415 but it was to catch donna and the preppies and to protect jughead, they fake dated for like one episode and the barchies are like "they love each other they've wanted each other all along" like what??? and dgms on comments about how they were with jughead and veronica so they wouldn't ruin their friendship and as a rebound, you don't date people for 4+ years to protect your friendship or as a rebound I'm sorry lol 417&418 were done very badly imo, if they wanted us to think they had these feelings for a long time they did a terrible job of showing it!! imo betty thought she had those feelings for him because she loved the idea of him and the 1x01 fantasy quote is very true imo lol I'm sorry but if they were planned from the start they did a terrible job at writing it and showing it!! what cheryl says is so true in 418 bughead (and varchie) were so beautifully developed and they showed how endgame they were which is more than I can say for barchie and I do ship them I'm just saying lol also them saying how it makes no sense for archie to have feelings for veronica in s5 after he was gonna leave her for betty even though he's loved veronica since s1 and always goes back to her and it's him having feelings for betty after everything that makes no sense tbh (talking about S4 ofc lol) it was written very poorly which is the rvd way but lol people saying betty didn't truly love jughead and archie didn't truly love veronica are literally stupid because they were both so endgame coded!!! anyway my question is what are your thoughts on this? that they were planned and how they were written and anything else you wanna add lol I know you hate riverdale and barchie so sorry if I'm bringing up old wounds <3

I'm genuinely sorry you feel as though you can't be honest all because some people on this site don't know how to act. That's ridiculous and completely inexcusable.

Sigh. First of all, it's Riverdale. That show seemed much more committed to the week to week ridiculous, over the top moments meant to garner attention and the instant gratification (for better or worse, in the case of a ship like Bughead who hooked up extremely early on but managed to be a mostly lovable cornerstone of the series for most of its run) than they ever were interested in doing anything long term. So the idea that Betty and Archie's eventual relationship was anything resembling a "slow burn" or well thought out with years-long development is just.. no. Fans are allowed to enjoy what they did get and relish in the smaller moments, intentionally or otherwise, that came before what they believe to be an epic hookup. But in my opinion, it wasn't that deep. The Betty/Archie arc was one of the sorriest excuses for a so-called "inevitable" relationship that I've ever seen. Again, we all interpret things like ships and story lines in different ways. But again, I have to disagree completely. It's as though you're only ever allowed to have loved or cared for one person to the extent that relationships that lasted for the majority of the series are written off as rebounds. For fans who are so committed to recognizing and celebrating tropes, it's interesting to see how often stuff like this gets misinterpreted and how there's a severe misunderstanding for how teen dramas in general work? To be fair, there are other shows where I feel the writing was so terrible that I simply have to call bullshit on it and can't look past my own, personal viewpoint. That being said, ideally if you want to make a compelling, rational argument you need to come away with actual evidence and not just resort to "she liked this guy first, therefore she only ever liked him and we're prepared to write off 77 episodes of content that suggests otherwise."

There were plenty of chances for Riverdale to have properly teased the idea of mutual feelings between Betty and Archie brimming under the surface. Every single opportunity the show had prior to the cheating, they seemed to shut the idea down and instead stuck with the Bughead and Varchie pairings. The biggest one being, of course, the kiss in season 2. A better show (if they truly wanted to explore Betty/Archie) would have either paired them up while both were single or quickly put them back with their original partners, which they did, but demonstrated that in spite of this they couldn't forget the kiss and found themselves drawn to each other. Obviously, this didn't happen. Nothing notable happened again until season 4 where, of all things, they fake dated, and yet none of the intimate moments between the two characters were ever SHOWN to the audience. Just one awkward scene where they texted followed by a contrived musical number featuring flashbacks to their three episodes. Fan fic writers make a gourmet meal with themes like this on a regular basis. How did they fuck it up so badly??

Speaking of that, THIS is what Riverdale should have done in this context and failed to do:

I hate Lucas and Peyton together. They're easily one of my least favorite ships of all time. But the writers of One Tree Hill at least understood how to execute these moments well. Even though I wasn't a fan of everything done to push Lucas and Peyton back together, the actual moment where everything clicks for Peyton and we see through flashbacks how much Lucas has meant to her was very effective. The Origin of Love wasn't on this level because there wasn't anything to call back to outside of three episodes (101, 102, 209).

As for the time jump years, it honestly felt like the friends with benefits "arc" was supposed to be the beginning and end of the exploration between Betty and Archie. It had a clear beginning with them (literally) coming together out of loneliness and because they were trying to bury their respective traumas by losing themselves in each other. The whole thing ends with Betty realizing and vocalizing to Archie why they don't work together. Archie realizes independently of Betty that he's still in love with Veronica and doesn't want to be the guy Betty turns to for emotional stuff. That alone has pretty awful implications considering they're supposed to be former childhood best friends. But whatever. 509-518 did absolutely nothing to set up Betty or Archie missing each other or changing their perspectives and needs in such a way where their hookup at the end of the season made any damn sense. Season 6 felt as though Betty was given a lobotomy and was forced to be Archie's ideal woman at all costs as he did nothing but be his wonderful self because he only deserves the best. But even that's not really good enough considering the show made Archie the savior of Riverdale and Betty the Harlot of Babylon. Not even Betty, the so-called flawless girl next door, can possibly live up to the paragon of virtue that should be the future Mrs. Archie Andrews. In Archie's defense (even though he bugs me and I don't like defending him), he doesn't seem to put this pressure on Betty maliciously or even knowingly. But the narrative will not stop punishing Betty during the time jump years for her "sins" all the while never holding Archie accountable for doing the same or similar things. So as a result, somehow the relationship became even worse for me. Betty is constantly and consistently misunderstood with Archie barely scratching the surface of who Betty is as a person. It's so painful to see knowing how Betty and Jughead clicked on all levels and could clearly see into each other's souls. Even though they came from different worlds, they found love and acceptance in each other with their endgame basically already written until bad writing tore it apart.

ANYWAYS. I'll never know exactly what the show thought it was doing. It genuinely felt as though there was a plan in place as late as season 5 to put Betty back together with Jughead while keeping Archie and Veronica together. But then some genius got the idea for a 5 episode event that seemed to tease the idea that the ships they hooked up at the end of season 5 were the wrong ones. Then somehow, said ships were basically kept together for the entirety of season 6 even after the characters were back in "normal" Riverdale. Or you know, Lili and Cole went through a messy breakup considering Cole overshared on that podcast and so Bughead was potentially Chophia'd outside of a handful of episodes. But then, the series finale featured a lot of interaction between those two to the point where it feels strongly implied their characters end up together in the "sweet hereafter", so who even knows? All I know is that Riverdale was a terrible show and should never get any credit for good writing.

[pollyna]

I mean Jonathan i'm kinda sorry but i'm all in for the weirdo kinda annoyed/pleasantly surprised and affectionate energy Nance has around Steve and Robin. The power of a himbo (who's an adoptive father/babysitter) dating a mean bisexual (in carrier) who's dating an even meaner lesbian (who's a mess)? My galaxy brain could explod.

[theconqueeror]

I haven’t finished s4 of vikings because of reasons *ahembjornandastridahem* but I wanna see what they have to offer for the finale. plus I realized I kinda miss it after seeing my classmate watching the old episodes :/

[littlemousejelly]

Haha I meant a recap

OH A RECAP!! OH DEAR, MY FRIEND, I SKIPPED S3 AND 4 SO I'M AFRAID I CANNOT REALLY HELP YOU THERE ;A;

i honestly just jumped right into s5 having only seen gifsets of supercorp moments from s4b. but ummm iirc, s3 was boring because they really didn't have any interactions due to mon-ugh.

s4a was also bad cuz lena started dating james and interaction between kara and lena was pretty minimal, THOUGH THERE WAS THAT SEXY CYCLING SCENE WHERE KARA OFFERED TO BEAT JAMES UP FOR LENA. BUT THEN LENA AND JAMES BROKE UP AND 4B WAS GREAT BC SUPERGIRL/KARA AND LENA TEAMED UP TO TRACK LEX DOWN(?), WHICH WAS HOT HOT HOT.

s4b ended with lex telling lena that kara is supergirl, with video proof of her using heat vision and being bulletproof and stuff(?) playing on screens so lena couldn't not believe him.

s5 so far? i mean honestly? i feel like you should just watch the episodes yourself (or just the supercorp scenes) because words can't even properly describe how fucking incredibly melissa and katie have been acting. ya gotta watch it. experience it with your eyeballs and ears and heart and mind.

i'm not exactly sure when kelly showed up? s4b? i'm afraid i can't really give you a recap on dansen's relationship bc my dash is heavily saturated with supercorp, but i love kelly/azie, and alex is sooo soft when she interacts with her so i think they're cute as hell.

i hope this helps a little? thanks for the ask, baby!

[miss-musings]

Comparisons between TBL’s Lizzington and The Bride and Bill from “Kill Bill”

How have we never talked about the similarities between these two before? I did a quick Google search, and I found a gifset comparing the "don't marry that guy" scene from the respective shows, but that was about it.

There are soooooo many similarities, it physically hurts my soul.

Guy/gal couple have a very meaningful, trusting relationship (which is explicitly romantic and sexual in Kill Bill; the jury is still on out The Blacklist)

There is a significant age gap between the guy and gal; in some ways, he is her mentor as well as her love interest

Both of them live in a violent world and/or take part in a violent profession that involves tracking down and (sometimes) killing people

Gal finds out she's pregnant, distances her self from guy in an effort to keep her baby safe

In her efforts, gal fakes her death

Guy is absolutely devastated to lose her

Guy tracks down gal inadvertently while looking for the people supposedly responsible for her death

At some point, gal intends to marry a second dude, and first guy objects to this marriage; and because of some violent circumstances, gal never marries the second dude

Gal gives birth to a baby girl

Guy helps to raise the gal's daughter while she is ~gone~ (in Kill Bill, Bill raises his daughter B.B. while the Bride is in a coma; in TBL, Liz fakes her death)

Guy and gal have a confrontation where each of them is angry at what the other did; yet deep down, it's evident they both still care about each other

Guy at one point is accused of/says he's the gal's father

There are plenty of differences too, don't get me wrong.

But, while the whole "Red is Liz's dad-CONFIRMED" thing from the S4a finale frustrated me to no end, it's good to keep in mind that there was a scene where the Bride pretended that Bill was her dad, even though the two had been in a relationship and she was pregnant with their child.

I think this also gives some perspective on why Liz has seemed so mean and vicious toward Red. Even if the "Agnes Reddington" theory turns out to be false -- and, as awesome as it would be, I highly doubt the writers would go there -- Liz would still feel incredibly protective of Agnes from Red.

Liz and Red had been in a relatively good place in their relationship. They built up a great level of trust, understanding and affection while she was on the run in Season 3a. Then, in Gregory Devry, she's clearly frustrated that he isn't going to take a break and that the fight against the Cabal must continue. But, it's only after she finds out she's pregnant that her frustration and venom against him REALLY escalates.

***

Before that strip turned blue ...I was a woman, I was your woman.

I was a killer who killed for you.

Before that strip turned blue, I would've jumped a motorcycle onto a speeding train.

For you.

But once that strip turned blue ...I could no longer do any of those things.

Not anymore.

Because I was gonna be a mother.

But why didn't you tell me then, instead of now?

Once you knew, you'd claim her. And I didn't want that.

Not your decision to make.

But it's the right decision, and I made it for my daughter.

She deserved to be born with a clean slate.

But with you, she would've been born into a world she shouldn't have.

I had to choose.

I chose her.

***

That, ladies and gentleman, is the dialogue -- as best I can tell -- from the confrontation between The Bride and Bill once she finds out that B.B. lived and that Bill raised her, and as Bill is finding out why The Bride faked her death to begin with.

Even operating under the assumption that Agnes IS Tom's daughter, the conversation still applies quite well to the Lizzington relationship. While she definitely disagreed on his methods and decisions, Liz showed time and time again that she was loyal to Red and cared about him and his well being. Granted, not to the same level that the Bride did with Bill, but still... it works.

In Lizzington's case, Liz's affection for / loyalty to Red seems to have gone out the door the minute she found out she was pregnant.

Red, well-meaning as he was, did try to "claim" Liz and her child, in a certain way. He definitely tried to insert himself into her life. He offered to give her money for her child; he put a security team across the hall; booked pregnancy massages, bought her a couch, etc. So long as Liz was in Red's life, that meant that Agnes was in his life as well. Liz knew first-hand that people had used her to get to Red; who's to say they wouldn't use Agnes to get to her and/or Red?

She rejected Red's "dirty / blood money." She wanted Agnes to have a relatively normal life. Fair enough. As venomous and hateful as she's been toward Red since Season 3b, I can't fault her for that much.

In the end, Liz chose her daughter over Red.

And, now, Bill gets to tell the Bride "the truth."

***

And for the record, letting somebody think somebody they love is dead when they're not is quite cruel.

I mourned you for three months.

And in the third month of mourning you... I tracked you down. I wasn't tryin' to track you down. I was tryin' to track down the fucking assholes I thought killed you.

So I find you...and what do I find?

Not only are you not dead...you're getting married to some fucking jerk.

And you're pregnant.

I overreacted.

You overreacted?

Is that your explanation?

I didn't say I was gonna explain myself. I said I was gonna tell you the truth.

But if that's too cryptic, let's get literal.

I'm a killer. I'm a murdering bastard. You know that.

And there are consequences...to breaking the heart of a murdering bastard.

You experienced some of them.

Was my reaction really that surprising?

***

Gah, if this isn't Red, you guys, I don't know what is.

Granted, in TBL, Liz and Tom decide to get married while Liz is pregnant and THEN she fakes her death. (Whereas in Kill Bill, it's the other way around.) Either way, Red was devastated and hurt by both decisions. He warned Liz not to marry Tom -- begged her, even. Said it wasn't in her best interests, that he wouldn't change. Now, it's been a while since I watched Kill Bill Vol. 1, but I feel like Bill told The Bride that she shouldn't marry the other dude because she was a killer and she would always wake up and be a killer. It would be hard for, if not impossible, for The Bride to be satisfied with a "normal life."

(In some respects, I would argue the same thing for Liz. We saw in the pilot that she's drawn to the criminal mind. Not saying she couldn't also be a stay-at-home mother, but would she really be happy with that life, long-term? I feel like she would miss the action, drama, and psychology of her time on the FBI Task Force. Anyway...)

Now, as for the fake death, Red is completely distraught -- a man without purpose -- after Liz's death. His saving grace, he'd hoped, was to be a part of Agnes' life, but Tom seemingly puts the kibosh on that. So, he goes to Cape May and then he sulks at Dom's house. It's not until Aram says they need help tracking down Liz's killers that he decides to come back.

Additionally, Red has told Liz (and others) time and time again that he is a killer. He's a monster -- someone who does bad things; even if he has the best of intentions, he still kills people.

After Liz died, what was the first thing we saw in the Cape May episode? Red presumably killed Nick, her doctor guy. He also went on quite the killing spree to find Susan Hargrave and then Kirk, all in an effort to get revenge for Liz's supposed death.

But, after he reunited with Liz, what did he do? He kept his distance. Yes, he offered her help and protection, and so on, but he isn't nearly as close or as unguarded with her as he had been previously. Even now... he gets Liz her much-desired pardon, and what does he do? He lets her find out on the TV and hangs out in his car. Doesn’t even give her so much as a phone call. This was a man who was thrilled to buy her an apartment and called her seemingly every half-hour she was waiting for her trial in 3x10.

All in all, I just wanted to point out the similarities between these two shows, and wonder at whether this means The Blacklist will follow in the shoes of Kill Bill, or if it's going to do its own thing. (It's going to be the latter, let me tell you right now.) Still, it's fun to speculate.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Wanted to add to this meta?