#is absolutely fucking bullshit and exactly why we need transandrophobia

[softbutchthatlovesyou]

Transandrophobia and androphobia are different words that mean different things hope this helped you nitpicky dicks 🧡

[sometimesraven]

transmisogyny is not transphobia against trans women. transmisogyny is the combination and intersection of transphobia and misogyny. that's why transmisogyny has a term and transandrophobia isn't one. molsno has a great and long answer to this question and so does transmisogyny-explained in their carrd. just because you experience something Differently does not mean there needs to be a different word given it's not an intersection of androphobia and transphobia. White trans people experience extremely different transphobia to trans people of color but there doesn't need to be a word for it because there's no intersection of two oppressions, just one oppression combining with another experience. I understand you feel isolated, but no one in the trans community is isolating you for being "afab," and terfs are waiting in the wings for transmascs to fall down the "amabs in the trans community get more attention and resources -> afab trans people are isolated -> afab trans people are oppressed under a specific axis that corresponds to being afab -> sex-based oppression is real -> bioessentialist oppression where trans women have power and trans men are below them -> reproduction of terf ideology with pronouns in it". terfs have already said they're overjoyed about transmascs "recognizing" that they'll "never be prioritized when males are around" etc etc and i have receipts on that. please just listen to the people trying to educate you, even if they aren't "nice enough" about pointing out when you've done something wrong. you're kind of employing a lot of fragility and the stance of a victim to avoid actually responding to a majority of the criticisms. you're 27 and if you can dish out stuff that trans women have been saying forever is transmisogynistic, you should be able to deal with people telling you when you did. tone-policing isn't helping. just apologize.

so it's one particular word you're taking issue with and therefore invalidating my entire personal experience, lol. If you took more than two seconds to actually find out what words mean, you'll see we came up with our own term because there was such a widespread belief that because trans men are men they can't experience transmisogyny.

"White trans people experience extremely different transphobia to trans people of color but there doesn't need to be a word for it because there's no intersection of two oppressions, just one oppression combining with another experience."

that's because white people aren't oppressed for being white???? There are, however, words for the unique ways that BIPoC people experience varying 'phobias. Because it's a unique intersection of the two phobias.

I understand you feel isolated, but no one in the trans community is isolating you for being "afab".

point me to exactly where I said I was being isolated by the community. In fact, when all this harassment started last night I was literally at a birthday party comprised of entirely trans people? I was talking about official resources and local media representation. Trans women aren't excluded from forgetting and ignoring trans men, of course, just as trans men aren't excluded from performing transmysoginy (which i would apologise for if I'd actually done any of the things I'm being accused of), but I never once said it was trans women perpetuating or causing it -- that was a bad-faith argument made by someone who wanted to sound more righteous than they are and drawing conclusions that I said repeatedly I never implied nor said.

I agree that TERF talking points come from conclusions that we can all draw and therefore we must be careful, but I have spoken to every other fucking trans person in my local community of all ages and we all agree that different types of trans people get treated differently because CIS PEOPLE see us differently. Did you not read JKR's bullshit essay? Tell me she didn't treat us differently.

I also agree that we shouldn't need a new word! You're correct! It's absolutely the intersection of transphobia and misogyny!!! So tell that to the large number of people who have repeatedly told us it isn't. The need for a new word comes from the need to describe the unique experience because people like the cunt in my notifs have decided we can't use the original word anymore. You can't tell us we can't use a word and then tell us we can't make up our own one. We've gone through several words y'all have a problem with -- it's obvious by now the issue isn't actually the words we use, it's just that we're voicing it.

Additionally, why is it that y'all can be so aggressive about accusing transmascs of transmisogyny (a form of oppression. therefore implying that we can sideways-oppress trans women) but when we make vent posts that even vaguely maybe possibly seems to (read: doesn't but you want it to) imply that other trans people can treat us badly y'all will lose your minds claiming we're trying to imply trans women are oppressing us???

Let me get this right:

if a trans woman says a transmasc treated them badly for being a different type of trans, the transmasc is wrong because it's sideways oppression

if a transmasc says a trans woman treated them badly for being a different type of trans, the transmasc is wrong because you can't perpetuate sideways oppression

Make it make sense.

I'm not tone policing, I'm telling you y'all are literally making shit up. I'm not apologising for something I didn't do, say, nor imply.

I will apologise for reducing the problem to afab vs amab trans people as that was uncalled for, but while the wording was sloppy the issue is still the same and the response would not have changed.

[vaspider]

you know what’s an interesting (and upsetting) observation I’ve made re: the whole “transandrophobia is just co-opting transfem terms”? I’ve seen similar shit happen in the past in almost the exact same way. Achillean was coined as a masc version of sapphic (obvs there’s more nuance to it but that’s a general gist of it) and masc folks were accused of appropriating fem terms. A gay man specific flag separate from the rainbow flag was made because some people wanted that, and it was immediately shot down because it was [checks notes] “just a recoloured lesbian flag”.

Like. It’s so insidious. It happens every single time queer masc people/men try to make something for ourselves. We’re always accused of appropriation, of stealing, of co-opting, things from fem people/women. We’re not allowed to have anything, and it’s so fucking tiring.

So honestly I think it's more "lesbians have been told by TERFs that they are So Threatened by everyone else and must Defend Themselves", which is part of their little radicalization script for lesbians, than it is specifically about men or trans men in particular. The same kind of things are said about bi women, about aces, about... lots of things.

The radfem/GC/TERF view on womanhood is so rooted and indeed steeped in the concept that womanhood is pain and suffering that they end up centering that pain and making it foundational to their worldview. That idea that womanhood is pain is so important that anything which decenters "woman" -- a sort of nebulous Ur-Woman who represents all women but somehow always seems to have the needs and desires of a Western white cis woman -- as the Most Suffering is an active threat to their entire existence. This includes concepts like intersectionality, because then they'd have to acknowledge that, say, Black women or disabled women or Black disabled women might have different needs or desires.

But, like, it also means that they have to keep selling how Under Attack they are to others as a declaration of self and of purpose, and that reinforcing that Under Attack status becomes a bonding activity for the in-group to participate in to delineate themselves from others. It's exactly the same thing you see with Evangelicals, where there's this constant refrain of "we are being persecuted." (The difference between the two groups being that - in the US anyway - women are institutionally disadvantaged and Evangelicals absolutely are not.) That is a part of the group identity, so it's necessary to repeat and reinforce. "Lesbians are the most attacked part of the community, especially from within the community" becomes a mantra as an outgrowth from "womanhood is a burden, everyone has it out for us, womanhood is a prison, women are only ever safe with other women."

Anyway. I'm very stoned and have been thinking about this particular topic for a very very long time, but I think that like... a lot of our intracommunity bullshit could be unwound if we were more aware of the fact that we are a community so under siege that we're consistently and constantly flinching, and that white women in the US have a Problem with summoning this concept of "woman" which is not just affected by oppression but defined by it. It's such a completely self-defeating definition for self-labeled feminists. Like... if womanhood is fully and totally suffering, what the fuck is left if you achieve your aims? If you end gendered oppression and suffering and your gender is defined by that, then what have you got left?

And all of this is of course not to deny that like -- in a lot of ways and for a long time, gay men have driven the agenda of the LGBTQ community. Part of why the acronym changed from GL to GLB to LGB to LGBT was part of a deliberate and much-discussed attempt to decenter (white cis) gay men, who had been sort of... centered by dint of being white cis men. Like, yes, that's real, and when we're talking about whose actual concerns are being addressed, that matters. For example, when you're talking about how trans folx were talked into letting marriage equality "go first" and let trans rights "wait their turn" bc "people aren't ready yet" and so the legislative needs of cis gays who have to worry about inheritance go first and we're left to trail behind, yeah, that's a time to talk about how intracommunity shit was often prioritized around gay men. Vexillology, especially when we're talking about a bunch of flags which generally have 3 or 6 horizontal stripes, is some bizarre, penny-ante nonsense which only serves as a means of saying "look how they attack and steal from us" and honestly ugh shut up.

It's exhausting, and it's fucking up our attempts at living less shitty lives. I wish people would knock it the fuck off.

Transmascs do get a big bucket of bullshit, we do, but I don't think the Achillean & flag thing was about transmascs, I think it was about the whole "oh no we're so put upon, look how persecuted" nonsense, and for that we can blame white womanhood.