#judaism and islam don't need lumped in with this

[tjmystic]

Other people have said this more eloquently than I have and will continue to do so, but, on the off chance that my small smattering of followers might need to see it said from someone else (and are sick of the pity party I've been throwing because of my latest breakdown), I thought I'd share my thoughts.

First off, let's get the annoying argument out of the way: I don't hate Jewish people. I don't hate Judaism. I'm not going to throw some garbage in here about how I have Jewish family and friends or that some of my favorite celebrities are Jewish or anything that white (or white passing, in my case) people tend to use as a reason why they can't hate a certain group. I don't hate the people, their race, or their religion because they're people, full stop. I feel the same way about Muslims and Islam, Christianity (if not all Christians, but, as a Christian, I feel I'm allowed to say this), atheists, agnostics, people of all religious beliefs and non-beliefs.

Likewise, I don't deny the Holocaust. I fully acknowledge the systematic murder of more than 17 million people (military included), over 6 million of whom were Jewish and killed specifically for being Jewish. The fact that this was allowed to happen will never not be a blight on humanity, and the fact that anti-semitism is still a problem that leads to the murders of Jewish people and Jewish allies harrows me to my core.

None of this, however, has anything to do with Israel, nor does it serve as an excuse for what Israel is currently doing to Palestine and has done since 1948. To repeat the phrase I've seen most frequently about this matter, "Surviving one genocide doesn't give you the right to commit another."

Another factor: Israel would not exist without the Allied Forces of World War II. What England (because I refuse to lump in the rest of Britain with this abhorrent decision) and America did was take a deeply traumatized people who had narrowly "escaped" -- if you can even call it that -- the largest genocide the modern world has ever seen (I know Wikipedia isn't the most reputable source, but the sources used in this entry are good, and it's just easier to link there than list each of those stats individually) and shove them off onto a separate continent. Instead of owning the choices that we (America, especially) made to allow this genocide to happen and actually trying to make reparations for it, to tell the remaining Jewish population, "You can return to your actual homes, your actual home countries, and we're going to do everything possible to make those places feel like home for you once again," we said, "Actually, it's really awkward if you're still here and we have to be reminded of what we did to you, so we're sending you somewhere else. Good luck!" That the "somewhere else" happened to be the the Jewish Holy Land is irrelevant. Especially considering that Jewish people were already living there and had been for upwards of 2000 years of recorded history.

But even that isn't fully accurate, because Holocaust survivors aren't the ones doing this. More often, Holocaust survivors are also victims of Israel.

Jewish people have more than enough justification to be afraid. They have equal justification to want a safe space where they can be Jewish however they want. They have a deep connection to the part of the Middle East in which Israel sits, as do Muslims, Christians, and many other world religions, and they should feel safe and respected in traveling to or living in that part of the world.

And none of this justifies Israel's existence as a state or the continued murder of thousands and thousands of innocent Palestinians.

[samwilsonshandsandass]

heyy i saw your post about how americans and europeans have distinctive different views on the whole israel-palestine conflict can you elaborate? i'm just curious since i don't know too much about the subject so i didn't rlly notice any differences

Hey! Yes, of course! Please keep in mind, I’m a Christian German and by no means an expert on this topic. I’ve also never been to Israel or Palestine, just as the vast majority of Americans who reblog those takes. Although I’m not a practicing Christian, it means I was socialized in a society with inherent antisemitism and a people’s past of being colonizers (namely Namibia), although not to the extent of Great Britain or France for example, so I can’t say too much or anything on the topic of how Israel seems to be seen as colonizers in distinctive American takes on the conflict. What I will say in response to this argument is this: This argument reeks of antisemitism, but especially of antisemitism that’s different from German/nazi antisemitism and also from muslim antisemitism.

That’s the basics to my person, so you know what perspective I’m talking from.

Now to what I know/understand of the history of the region I’m talking about. Just the region, not countries. That region, including the Levant, has the strongest ties to what happened according to the writings of Judaism and Christianity and Islam. There also is one indigenous tribe on the soil of nowadays Ethopia who claim to be the oldest Jewish community in the world, but that’s a different topic.

Judaism is different from Christianity and Islam as in the fact that Judaism is also an ethno-religion. That’s one of the reasons why Jews long for their own state, their own country and land. Then comes the diaspora that started way before our time and goes back to ancient times.

Fast forward to modern times in the meaning of historical science (1800 to now). Great Britain colonized part of the Levant, where, at that time, Christian Palestinians lived. Jews were still in diaspora.

Now a smaller fast forward to what the Germans did. The specific German antisemitism that resulted in several pogroms of Jewish communities in the Middle Ages against the Ashkenazi Jews and the German antisemitism that got a big boost during the reformation with Martin Luther at the helm.

All that resulted in the genocide that the vast majority of people (not only Germans but other nationalities as well) call “Holocaust” which translates to “burn victim”. Jews call it “Shoa”, which translates to “Shame”.

That made it abudantly clear, even in the eyes of the world, that Jews needed their own state. That was in the mid to late 1940s. This times, just these five years, have several important things happening during that time:

British Colonies strived (and sometimes got) their indepency.

The UN were founded, as a response to what the Germans did and what the world got liberated from.

While there were six million Jews less than before, the diaspora is still very much happening.

People remember which parts of the world have the closest ties to the Jewish texts.

Jews now have an argument as to why they need their own state that’s so strong, there’s no stronger argument that also cannot be refuted, unless you’re araging antisemite.

(Yes, I know the last point sounds cynical. It is, but that doesn’t make it less true.)

All this culminates in Jews getting their state where it is today. Still, they get their state in a region where they’re surrounded by states who don’t recognize the right to existence of the state of Israel. So, Israel constantly feels threatened. If that’s always by everyone the case is another topic, but Israel as a state (not Jews, there’s a difference between Israelis and Jews) feels threatened. That’s also why the conflict is not entirely just about religion but also about land. And by that, existence.

That’s the basics of the situation. Now for the distinct German-Israeli situation.

Germany, because of its history, feels a special connection to Israel and especially Jewish Israelis which results in Germany (as a state) wants Israel to exist but at the same time recognizes the difference between Israel, the state, and Jews living there.

At the same time, Germany is not hostile to Palestine or their want for their own state. That’s why Germany favors a two-state-solution. What Germany is hostile to, however, is the Hamas. The Hamas rules over Palestine and is considered a terrorist organization. There also haven’t been elections held in 15 years in Palestine. Israel, at the moment (and for the last two years) has/had trouble to form a functioning government.

All of the above are the basics when Germans discuss the Israel Palestine Conflict.

And now for the actual answer:

In all the American takes, I almost never see the Hamas being mentioned. Not by name, not by “terrorist organization”, nothing. Never. They almost always only mention the civilian populace which ignores the part of Palestinians who gives the orders to attack Israel. At the same time, I almost always see the Israeli populace (no matter if they Christian, Jewish or Arabian Israelis) lumped in with the acting right wing government on Benjamin Netanjahu (acting, not legitimized), which in consequence makes every Israeli an Israeli who attacks Palestine.

Both aren’t true and are most likely furthering aversions against each other and a black and white thinking pattern.

In the German takes, the Hamas is mentioned. There’s a line drawn between the Hamas and the Palestinian populace. The Israeli government is mentioned with all its quarrels and why it feels it has to do what they do (same with the Hamas). The Israeli populace is mentioned as being different from their government.

All four parties (Hamas, Israeli government, Palestine populace, Israeli populace) are given space in news reports, etc to state their perspective.

During all this, Germany still wants a two state solution as the long term goal and the right to existence of Israel to remain and Israel to be safe.

[solarzilla]

The whole "god is evil" is legitimately one of the most boring writing plots, like ever. It's just so overdone at this point, the same goes to "satan is misunderstood or in the right". Its just boring.

All these writers were raised in christain households and while they may denounce Christianity, they are still culturally christain and it shows in their writing. Another problem is like, why god of all things? We already have a society that hates us, why need some deity you don't believe in, in your writing

There's also the occasional racism when they just lump in islam & judaism with their issues with western Christianity. There's also the appropiation of kabbalah where they just use it for aesthetic. Basically it's just boring. Make a better plot.

[keshetchai]

Question, do you have any thoughts on demonolatry? It is a path I am seriously considering and slowly researching. I'm still working my way through the book The Devil and the Jews, but what I've read so far plus what I've been coming across in my demonolatry research (Hebrew is a source language for many texts) plus still being very ignorant of Jewish traditions over all has me cautious. I feel comfortable in demonolatry but don't want to trespass/appropriate something I have no right to.

Oh goodness, I have….different takes on my gut reaction/answers. I’ll divide them into mini-answers!

Answer #1: [The most generalist answer about cultural appropriation]

If the source language for a variety of texts in something is in a language you don’t understand, and isn’t a heritage language for you, then chances are high it would be appropriative for you to adopt this kind of practice. This might not always be a hard and fast rule, but like…it’s a pretty sure bet in this case that a bunch of Gentiles who made a practice using misinterpreted and perverted Hebrew texts for their own needs and then continued on for several decades or centuries is just going to get you an end result of cultural appropriation/cultural perversion.

Answer #2: [The issue of Jewish appropriation & western Orientalism]

I honestly don’t know much about demonolatry, but from what I can tell it’s another spin on western occultism which was and is, at its core, appropriative of Judaism as an “exotic” flavor to be added as Gentiles saw fit. The whole “seal of Solomon” thing being appropriation by occultists is part and parcel with this kind of stuff, and it’s really really weirdly orientalist. The use of a holy language in Judaism (Hebrew) for this stuff is just….really trying to make it more “magic” seeming.

I mean some of these occult texts are what, 1500-1600’s? When you realize Jews were expelled from Spain in 1492, and the inquisition continued to try and make sure that converso Jews didn’t revert to their heritage faith – I mean it’s just more of the same obsession with perceived connection between non-Christian (read: Jewish and Muslim) ties to demons and devil worship/working.

But then there’s later stuff, from what I can tell it’s like a chunk of stuff 1500-1600 and then again after the 1700’s a period 1800 - Today (at least the bulk of this stuff is before or after the Enlightenment period in Western Europe) and…. Surprise surprise, a bunch of white guys being obsessed with the magical secret demon rituals of the “exotic orient” is undeniably connected to gross European colonial/imperialist attitudes. Another generalization: stuff written by dead white guys about the “orient” or “near eastern” practices in the occult arts are full of shit.

Thing is – fear of cultural appropriation aside – is any of this NOT fully enmeshed in orientalist imperialist western attitudes? And is any of it going to hold up to any kind of academic-historical-archaeological scrutiny?

Answer #3: [The issue of “All religions have stuff we can’t prove, but some religions have more complete mishmash based on conflated facts and made up stuff that ignores academic study on the originating culture(s) than others.” AKA the Academics of Appropriation]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh. If the PDF I found on my google search of the term is a real source on the demonolatry issue, then it just lumps a gazillion different devils/Angels/spirits/goddesses/gods/whatever that are all occurring over the span of what is in reality probably 2-3,000 years. They have nothing to do with each other in many cases! Like a “devil” that has an Arabic name naturally occurs much later in time than a really early babylonian type language spirit because of the timeline of when those languages began and developed. I’m also probably the wrong person to ask - the very mention of “Lucifer’ makes my eyes want to roll out of my head because anyone who ascribes that to a demonic-figure misunderstood that it was a criticism of a Babylonian King, and had zero to do with any kind of supernatural figure.

I don’t particularly know much about Mesopotamian/Fertile Crescent/Near Eastern/Levantine paganism but I do know an archaeological/art history scholar who does study the prehistoric/ancient near east and I just deeply truly feel like the emphasis on near eastern paganism is mostly about 19th century Orientalism. I’m going to guess that a majority of the stuff discussed by demonolatry is riddled with factual errors, misunderstandings, and conflations that come out of ignorance of the region, time periods, and religious practices that took place.

I try to be respectful of the fact that different people find solace in different kinds of religions, but I won’t lie - I found myself deeply dissatisfied with the whiteness, appropriation, and bad scholarship I found across pretty much all modern pagan variants some time ago. Like it’s not just not cohesive/disorganized, it also just…doesn’t have any grounding in the actual historical reality of these beings/spirits in the faith origins any of them come from? I find most people in paganism/neo paganism are really interested in only very specific texts. Like they’ll read someone’s (European) grimoire from the 1600’s but won’t pour over Sumerian archaeological digs and academic papers on Hittite worship - because the point is not really these ancient/prehistoric paganisms but the *idea* of them - the orientalist *concept* of the ancient near east. like why does everyone talk about the meaning of the color of the candle you use for an ancient (whoever) entity when candles….hadn’t even been invented yet? I’m pretty sure that spirit doesn’t care because wax/dipped (dyed & COLORED) candles weren’t a Thing Then. You know? the rituals mentioning pillar candles for something that was worshipped in like 3000 BCE just isn’t based in any actual practice of the time because they didn’t have that then. It’s a tiny detail, but you could expand that to almost anything you wanted.

Maybe that’s harsh of me? But like personally I deeply dislike this kind of stuff because I find it just as intellectually dishonest as many organized faiths can be, except these people tend to publicly emphasize their ancient spirituality/faith predates “xyz”. But if you can avoid Hebrew entirely, avoid Jewish-Hebraic entities AND Islamic AND Zoroastrian entities and are just focusing on like….worship of things from ancient religions which just don’t exist anymore? I mean, I guess? Like just don’t….use anything that at all uses or borrows from Hebrew/Judaism/Tanach (or the Christian Bible). That might help avoid Jewish appropriation but won’t get rid of the orientalist lens issue.

Anyways….

Last Answer: [The: “I have a Mom of Color” aka “the comedic kinda” answer]

NOPE NOPE NO NAH NU UH sure appropriation is bad but do you know what is ALSO BAD????? Inviting spirits into your life that have their own motives and powers and minds!!!!! NOPE.

Why would any spirit deign to work with your ass for free? THEY WOULDN’T! What makes u think they’re gonna let you set the price for their services? THEY WON’T! You also can’t work with someone else’s spirits, you have to work with your own!

Idk man I was forbidden from playing at seances as a child, my momma literally told me to never summon anything because you don’t know how powerful it is and whether or not it wants to hurt you I compulsively throw spilled salt over my shoulder to blind any devils behind me, I have a hand of hamsa amulet by my door, I grow sage at my windowsill, I have literally been trained my whole lil Mexican life to avoid the devil even though my mom explicitly does not believe in hell or an actual literal devil.

Honest we don’t believe in the devil but JUST IN CASE…..

So uh tl;dr:

1.) yes. It’s got appropriative elements 2.) and Orientalism/racism 3.) also I don’t even know if any of the sources I found actually are true of the origins of these entities in any historical or academic sense which is a large part of why I think it’s rooted in Orientalism/fetishizing of the near east 4.). I’m like ethically (ethnically?) obligated to tell you demons are Bad News and My Momma Says I Have to Go if Someone Uses so much as a Oujia Board, Right Now, Immediately, She is Calling Me for Dinner Probably. (I mean I can’t stop you and have met satanists/lucifer worshippers and wasn’t scared of them personally, and I don’t even believe in “The Devil,” but also I ain’t white.)

Thanks for asking though! Sorry if I seem….idk unfair? I think these criticisms I’ve made can be applied to a LOT of things, which is why I apply them also to any modern paganism strain.