#kryta

[amelia-raiher]

Guild Wars 2 Queensdale

[skaald-of-the-hearth-fires]

@nyoka-gorefell

I'm going to take this opportunity to talk about Logan! Yeehaw!

I mained human so I kinda liked Logan. I've always been biased toward him. I didn't necessarily think he'd made the right decision, but I supported his right to make it. Like he said in the Dream-vision of him: you would have made the same choice, any of you, if the one you loved was in danger!

Basically, it was a bad spot all around. Lose-lose situation. He made the most of it. That was my view.

I'm planning a rewrite of Edge of Destiny (someday lol) to make it better + clearer what was going on with Logan + etc.

And I found something: the narrative in the book does not condemn or exalt either decision. Either decision would have been bad, no way around it.

One problem: that's not how books work.

The way the climactic decision-point works is that you make a personal sacrifice for the good, moral quality being extolled by the narrative. If the thing you sacrificed was, itself, considered good by the narrative, there would come a surprise twist that would mean the thing wasn't actually sacrificed, as a "reward" for making the selfless decision to uphold good and moral purity or whatever.

The problem with Logan's story is that neither option was presented as the 'moral, good' option. As Logan was leaving, Eir said "you have to do what is right," but beyond this, no indication is given to Logan which option is morally superior. You can? sorta? infer that of course the main conflict with the dragon is the preferred one. Rytlock and Eir's dialogue after Logan leaves also clarifies this.

But Logan himself was never presented with a clear moral dichotomy; he was merely given the trolley problem, which is bad however you slice it.

I bet Logan would have haters even if he'd stayed; Kryta would have fallen into disarray. The Ministry would have taken power. We'd have Caudecus in charge. Human/charr relations would heat up. We'd have the return of the White Mantle like snap, or else all-out anarchy. Humanity would be toast. Logan would get all the blame from the playerbase.

So in my rewrite of Edge of Destiny, I'm fixing the problem. I'm going to assign a clear moral status to each option, and make it clear where Logan stood on that moral issue when deciding. How did I pick which option was favored?

Easy. I look at the rest of ArenaNet's storytelling. Their centuries of lore and worldbuilding. The lessons of the other story arcs. Anet's message is consistently unity. Stand together. Stand strong. The races stand unified. The Orders stand unified. With unity, many impossible things [slaying an Elder Dragon] may be achieved.

So the preferred option, the morally good option according to the storytellers, was that Logan stay. Stand with his allies. Represent human/charr unity. Defeat an Elder Dragon.

And, somehow, Queen Jennah would survive, because love and protecting people is not morally bad. If Logan sacrificed the queen for the sake of the moral truth of the narrative, proving his selflessness and commitment to the ideal of the narrative, then the queen would survive to "reward" him for his virtuousness.

It doesn't seem in-character for Anet to write Jennah as a typical damsel-in-distress, hero-gets-the-girl type of story, BUT: he didn't. Logan DIDN'T choose the morally-good option.

Typical Corruption arc: hero begins with the ideal of the story (unity is good), then over time, some negative trait overtakes him. Greed, selfishness, over-protectiveness, whatever - and leads him to destroy everything he holds dear (Destiny's Edge; his broship with Rytlock; Snaff dying; Glint, hero of humanity, dying; Kralkatorrik surviving).

I think if the book had actually written Logan like this (with the base game of GW2 being his redemption arc), he would have a lot less hate. I think a lot of the hate comes from the fact that the Edge of Destiny narrative DIDN'T outright condemn Logan's actions. And even the base game is a bit vague.

Logan didn't get his comeuppance for his bad choices (beyond the queen ditching him a few years down the line, I suppose). That's where the hate comes from.

Because nuanced, flawed characters exist, and those are the best kind. I really like Logan's character. He's one of the most human characters in the game. I like that for him.

(Also, perhaps, some of the hate stems from the assumption that Logan was simping the whole time. I'd be fed up with him too, actually, if that were true. But the queen for sure returned his feelings. Logan was acting within the bounds of an established relationship.)

This has been

Character Study: Logan Thackeray (part II)

thank you for reading!

[echowilds]

went to tyria pride yesterday on this trans little guy! had a lot of fun with @bluebudgie (Ihdelyn) and @catiuapavel (Esther) and saw a ton of people (sorry for not saying hi ^^')

i only got a few screenshots that didn't get photobombed (/where i didn't forget to turn the ui off hdskfl)

left is Esther, middle is Pleur by @orrianreaper, right is Captain Kryta by @dasozelotvonnebenan

[twilightdomain]

question for caught up people. is mr. bots the only character we've seen an alternate version of in the wizard fractals. so far

[ascalonianlightbringer]

curuniel replied to this post:

Fun fact Logan used to be a mercenary, of a somewhat rough kind. Much less of a fancy boy before he got his current job. So I'm not surprised that extrajudicial murder wasn't fully off the cards.

Huh! On the one hand, I wouldn't have ever imagined that background from the personal story. On the other, he does often seem frustrated by the constraints of Krytan society and his position, so it makes a certain kind of sense.

Like, in the noble storyline, the bandit situation does get resolved through formal channels and traditions, but Logan is super gung-ho about backing up the PC in trial by combat, and he does mutter about taking things into his own hands if they don't work out this way. And in the commoner story, he's the one who rushes into a fight with a ton of Ministry guards while Anise urges caution. So "no, you can't just try and murder him, we've got to lure him out so we can actually kill him" isn't necessarily out of character for him even given the other storylines. And it also makes sense that he'd bother less with the fancy captain persona when the hero who rescued him is an ex-bandit from the streets.

[leafofkudzu]

Random story opinion thing that's lodged itself in my brain today: all human characters should have an option similar to this from The Fall of Falcon Company (aka the Dead/Missing Sister character creation choice):

And it should continue to come up where relevant in the story, such as during PoF, EoD, or even during the Ebonhawke stuff in IBS. Lots of potential places, basically. And yet it doesn't, because it's only used in this one tiny story step and then never again, basically.

(For reference your answer here changes the appearance of said missing sister when she shows up later, in case you've never done this story step before).

[girlbob-boypants]

I'm also just gonna say that most human mages would be classified as priests in other settings like those bitches are soooo devout

[anghraine]

I am pretty hypocritical in my GW2 annoyances, in all honesty.

I was super irritated the other day by some guy ranting about how humans and the human gods were the worst thing that ever happened to the world in-story Because Lore (but a very, hmm, slanted perspective on the lore). Someone actually pointed out that the goddess Kormir became a god by basically saving the world and the dude reverted back to ranting about Kormir stealing the glory from the players blahblah and ffs it's 2023 and somehow Kormir Stealing the Glory discourse from 2006 is still a thing.

Now, do I cherish my eternal grudge over the thousands of civilians massacred in the Searing and in the consequent invasion, from the game released a year earlier? Well, yes.

IDK!! Trahearne discourse was just Kormir discourse 2.0 with less misogyny, but getting original flavor is just ... let her go, she's fine, she did her best and game mechanics aren't her fault. But I am solidly on team never forgive, never forget about the Searing and the invasion.

[dasozelotvonnebenan]

🖊 for whoever is the most recent on your character select screen

@knight-of-the-thorn

Ok I am away from my pc right now so I can not confirm, but I think I played Era last. That is cool because you now get to learn new lore that has come to exist exactly thirthy seconds before this has been typed.

So Era has a dragonsblood spear that she got when she fought in thunderhead keep. Not too unsual for her, she does end up in pact business surprisingly often. In this case though the reason she was there was entirely dragon unrelated, since she was accompanying Cap who had developed a crush on a Zephyrite at the previous bazaar of the four winds.

Cap, being both impulsive and adventurous, immidiately had immidiately taken off on the first ship towards Elona, since he intended to gather an appropriate gift for the object of his desire. He arrived in amnoon, promptly got lost in the desert, answered a djinn's riddles on accident and as a reward only asked for directions towards the place where the Zephyrites used to get their crystals. Despite being armed with the most accurate knowledge of the crystal desert of any living Krytan he manages to get list again, when Era finally catches up on him.

Era, knowing full well she can not stop Cap from doing this (save for the slim chance of running into a pretty Elonian who then catches Cap's fancy), simply takes point and the two retrieve an impressive crystal from the half forged half branded infested mine.

Cap's sandy detours had cost them serious time though; upon their arrival in the labyrinthine cliffs they were greeted by a shocking lack bazaar! From one of the few remaining people they learned that the Zephyrites had traveled north, towards an old dwarven keep, so they set off (on foot!) in pursuit.

When they arrived, weeks later and horribly exhausted, in a brandstorm blasted dredge settlement, it was the first time they learned they had somehow once again found their way into dragon shenanigans.

[havoc-warband]

thank you anet for letting us skip 1 achievement per collection for old LA :)

[i-mybrunettelady]

Road and Armour for Nyra ? 😃

!!!! babygrill

road: what does your OC wear while traveling? do they have high-quality equipment, or are they making do? what does their gear look like?

i will start by saying that in-game armor =/= armor she'd wear in canon. as such, i don't have all that many visuals. but i will say that as a general rule, nyra favors practicality. her personal fashion sense is very dramatic, sure, but like. on the road that becomes less important than the high quality of her gear, and especially as the years went on and she wasn't a baby-faced adventurer anymore. she pays so much attention to the quality of her gear. it's also very weather-appropriate.

i will give a small inspo - the armor she wears in dai (aka back when i had my hair mods lmao)

armor: what kind of armor does your OC wear? is it well kept? bonus: where does it come from? is there a story behind it?

so! nyra's armor is a very fun topic. in-game stuff =/= canon stuff. but she does have periods, like PoF and season 4 before she rejoins the pact, where she wears whatever she can get that's protective and of good quality, but she does also have specially forged armor for protective and purposes of being recognized when she's leading the army. she likes being the center of attention, she likes being noticed, and she also likes her armor to be functional, so she marries the two. she's the face of the pact, after all.

she also wears ceremonial armor on occasion, and there is a portrait of her in ceremonial armor for the royal palace of kryta after she killed zhaitan. fun fact, she has like... two or three stately portraits, one's in her possession, one's with queen jennah, and one's with her parents.

[little-leaf-man]

I really do love humans in Guild Wars. Creatures brought from LITERALLY Gods knows where to Tyria? Freaky looking in some places with their eyes n stuff? (Look at the gw1 humans) Built cities the Gods themselves walked? Also, the bar is low in fantasy games but- Not just a americanised-eurocentric fantasy? You got Elona, Cantha, Kryta, Ascalon and Orr (Historically). The gods brought them, and for better or worse the Humans followed them throughout history

Just!!! Humans in Guild Wars!!! They're so interesting!!!! I love the human history!!!!

[skaald-of-the-hearth-fires]

can you talk to me about Logan? was he retconned into being a simp or was he always a simp? what else do u like about him

AHO YES

thanks for the ask!! I have had MANY thoughts about this.

So. Logan's story started in 1319 when he met Rytlock, then Caithe, and they fought in an arena in Lion's Arch for a while. This is documented in the official, canonical book Edge of Destiny.

Queen Jennah came to watch a match as part of international relations or something, and Logan was smitten immediately and went to talk to her before the match. (His brother was the queen's guard so that may have given him some leeway lol.) He told her he would fight for her, his queen. He asked for a token, and she gave him a scarf, which he wore while he fought. He was injured so terribly that he was unconscious, but he did have victory.

Once he woke up, Logan received an official summons to Divinity's Reach in Kryta. He went and met with the queen, who presented him to all the nobles, ministers, and other politicians as 'her Champion,' raising both their hands in the air. He would be her warrior outside Kryta, her presence on foreign fields. Then she turned to him, squeezeed his hand, and whispered in his ear, "thank you for answering my summons" (she is a queen). Logan squeezed her hand in return and responded that he would always answer her summons.

So she, on the spur of the moment, magically bonded him to her, a process whereby she went into his mind (Logan's mental monologue describes her as a thief in the night, and yet he welcomed her and led her into his memories).

This rocks her back for a moment in awe at the things he has done, but she quickly recovers in the presence of her court and declares to Logan that if she summons him, he must come. Logan kneels and promises he will.

After this, Logan returns to Lion's Arch to continue fighting in the arena, meets the rest of Destiny's Edge and goes off to fight dragons.

During the rest of the book, Logan and Jennah exchange letters in which Jennah clearly returns his love. She is concerned for his wellbeing fighting dragons and their champions, which as well all know is not known for its health benefits. See the tail end of her first letter:

As your queen, I could forbid you to do this thing, but I have seen you defeat a legion of charr. I have seen you slay devourers and destroyers, centaurs and ettins and worse. If anyone could defeat the Dragonspawn, it would be you. So, I will not forbid it. I will trade fear for hope and look forward to congratulating you on this latest and greatest of your victories. -- your queen, Jennah

She calls him 'my dear Champion' and says her trust in him was well placed, and wishes he could return home (but he is too busy for this) and 'you are most alive in the heart of danger' anyway.

My heart tells me to forbid you to go. I should. [...] if I lose you to Morgus Lethe, it would be worse than losing an army. [...] I think of you often. I imagine you marching across blasted tundra, battling monsters in caves of ice, standing stalwart against our enemies. Perhaps I am just imagining the battles you fight, but I choose to believe we have a deeper bond.

After the second victory of Destiny's Edge, Jennah writes in exultation that a champion of a dragon cannot stand against the champion of a queen. I fear to lose you, and I want more than anything to see you again. But you cannot fight for me by standing around the halls of Divinity's reach. The last thing I need is another polished advisor. They are just statues compared to a flesh-and-blood champion. So, fight for me. Defeat the Destroyer of Life. And in our long separation, I will content myself with letters and with visions of your heroism. Your queen, Jennah

Later, she addresses a letter to the Most Magnificent Logan Thackeray, after spending the book dropping her own titles as they grow closer, and she calls her desire to summon him 'selfish.'

Then follows the incident with Glint, Kralkatorrik, and Logan leaving to protect Jennah. (Their magical bond allowed her to communicate with him via telepathy.) We know how that goes. Logan's brother is killed in the fighting, and we last see Logan Thackeray taking his place and bearing his sword as Captain of the Seraph, left hand of the queen.

And so we see Captain Thackeray in-game, often in his office doing paperwork or clinging to the queen's side (often in spite of her gentle persuasion to depart for adventure and glory). So the man who was most alive in battle becomes the polished advisor Jennah never needed him to be, for the sake of her own protection.

So much for Edge of Destiny! but even officially-canon sources are nothing compared to in-game sources. Off we go to Divinity's Reach, 1325, five years later, when the queen is in danger from one of her own soldiers who went mad from dragon corruption, and the Durmand Priory has stepped in to help defend her.

The player, who has recently been delegated the role of 'Advocate of the Queen' in dealing with the three Orders of Kryta, has this conversation with her.

Advocate: Captain Thackeray is very worried about you, Your Majesty. Queen Jennah: Logan? He mustn't worry... please, tell him I'll be fine. If he is distracted, and gets hurt, I don't know what I would do. Advocate: If I may be so bold, ma'am, the two of you seem to care about one another very much. Queen Jennah: He is like an angel sent from Dwayna to be at my side. If things were different, or if Kryta were at peace, then, perhaps... Advocate: Good luck, ma'am. To all of us.

after the battle, another conversation is had.

Advocate: Speaking of Captain [Logan] Thackeray... it doesn't bother you that he's going to Lion's Arch? Queen Jennah: I'm worried, I'll admit. Caithe has never been trustworthy even in the best of times, and lately... Please, tell me you'll watch over him? Advocate: You know that you could stop him, right? One word from you, and he'd stay. Queen Jennah: No, Advocate. I have enough servants - I want a partner. Logan must be free to make his own decisions.

Note that these dialogues are not available to characters who pick the Vigil path. The first one (and most important, imo) is only available in the Durmand Priory path. Don't ask me why, that's a stupid decision (and perhaps the wiki just failed to document them in the other two paths), but here we have the lore still perfectly intact, confirming the books and even increasing on them. The strongest declaration of the queen's love aside from the magical bond is found in the game itself. "He is like an angel sent from Dwayna?" please.

Logan didn't simp for Jennah, although he did embarrass himself a few times and he is most certainly quite sappy and focused on Jennah's welfare and protection. It's his whole vocation. He is a guardian, and guardians protect. He is Seraph Captain, and the Seraph Captain serves the queen and defends her and her people. And he loves her, and she loves him. She cares for him fiercely and worries about him just as much as she did five years ago.

Contrast that to Season 3, Head of the Snake, 1330, five years after, where the player Commander approaches the queen again.

Commander: After the incident with Estelle, I meant to ask you about Logan... Queen Jennah: Captain Thackeray has provided unwavering, invaluable service to the crown. I expect he will continue to do so, especially given the current situation with Caudecus. Commander: Apologies if I've given offense, Your Majesty. Queen Jennah: That's not necessary. I hear the whispers, and I see with my own eyes. Logan is... a loyal servant, and a friend. I think he's coming to terms with that. At last.

Logan was never a simp until they forced him to be by taking his full decade of service, love, and devotion and said it was never appreciated. They ripped his lover out of his arms and forced her to tell him, against her own expressed feelings, that she never loved him, that all his years of service and sacrifice meant nothing to her and never had, that he had wasted himself on nothing. It makes a mockery of him, turning him into a blind fool whose expressions of unashamed, raw love were the foolish delusions of a lovestruck boy who, apparently, spent ten years trying to win her love and failing to measure up.

This was in a main story instance that everyone who played that episode could see.

This of course, holds no candle in fandom discourse to an offscreen source (book) and a conversation that occured in 1/15th of all possible story paths (1/5 chance of playing human, 1/3 chance of choosing Priory). The real funny thing is that Anet never removed these dialogues when they made the retcon.

Logan was a hero. He was a champion. He is skilled and experienced in both combat and strategy, in leadership and military management. Logan was evenly matched with a Blood Legion Tribune, and for a human that is no mean feat. He slew beasts with a company of five that it took the whole dwarven race to kill. He is one of, if not the strongest hero, aside the Commander, to exist in the modern day. There's a reason he was snapped up by the Pact almost immediately. And this retcon turns Jennah into a blind fool as well, failing to see the strength, courage, and heroism in front of her face, who loved and was devoted to her, and foolishly spurned his love.

So much for the canon!

I do not like this retcon, not one bit. I also hate changing canon. Undoing this retcon would change a lot of things going forward from Season 3, such as him being Marshal of the Pact, him being a ladies' man with all the ladies who aren't as dumb and stupid as the retcon made Jennah to be, and so on.

So I will fix the retcon while preserving a respect for both Logan and Jennah, and it is this: that it is not a retcon - that is to say, it has no power going backwards - but that it is a development. Jennah has fallen out of love with Logan after his repeated refusal to leave her side and be the hero she fell in love with. He used to have utmost respect for her, and would take her suggestions as commands. But here he does not, and when he finally did leave to kill Zhaitan, it was only to come back in S1 and be just as stubborn as ever. (Which is technically a limitation of S1's timing and development IRL, but it works.) He leaves to fight dragons but he comes straight back and does not listen. This is a minor improvement, but it is not enough. The queen can not love a man who will not listen to his queen.

This could read either as Jennah falling out of love, or that she, for his own good, says that she doesn't love him anymore, in order to let him leave and be his most true, alive self in battle. And maybe she misses him and is torn apart when she dreams of his battles with the Pact, and of his adventures with other women, but he is happy, and there was a part of him that was not while he stayed by her side and did paperwork and sacrificed himself for her safety.

So much for the retcon!

What else do u like about him? -- dabenport

I'm glad you asked, I have no clue! He's not a particularly compelling character to me. I'm asexual and have never been in a relationship, so I don't relate to... much of his existence lol.

I'll say I've mained human all my life (despite my fave race being sylvari) and Logan is pretty great. He has a sense of humor (as Seraph Captain, I can't exactly jump up and down saying 'pick me! pick me!' but I can certainly think it) (oh dear! the White Mantle is upon me! oh woe! is this the end for poor Logan?).

I guess what I really like about him is his devotion to the queen. The queen serves the kingdom, and Logan serves the queen. They are united in their service to the people. That's a great picture to me.

You can tell how much a person cares about something by what they sacrifice for it. Logan sacrificed Snaff, Glint, and the chance of defeating Kralkatorrik. Logan sacrificed a life of adventure. He sacrificed his relationship with Rytlock, an honorary brother, as well as the rest of Destiny's Edge. (Jennah's side of the relationship is much more hidden, not well known aside from what I've just related; she is a shadow in the story compared to Logan's bright flare of a hero, a mentor to human characters and connection to Destiny's Edge.)

Logan also sacrifices for fighting the dragons: in Arah he stayed behind, and although by some miracle he survived, it was clear he did not expect to.

Sacrifice is like catnip to me. Give something up for the sake of that which you love; gimme. It's the theme of all my blorbos. Somehow it doesn't come through in making Logan a compelling character to me. I can feel strongly about his overall story and write about that, but the long-term drudgery of writing a narrative is much more difficult. Perhaps it is because I have never been in a relationship and don't know what to show/how to explore that. Write what you know, they say. I don't know the strength of the feelings involved or how they might express. (I've also never really been a fan of the romance genre, possibly for the same reason, and I've had very few friends in my life, so I really have no sources of knowledge on what is it like to love that deeply.

Possibly for these reasons, it's difficult for me to write about Logan. Despite my high regard for him, he's just not compelling to me the way other characters (cough Trahearne cough Forgal cough Taimi - whose stories may contain love in some amount but are not focused on them) are. I write about him because I concluded that his PoV would be the best to tell the opening acts of Dreams of Freedom from, chronicling Destiny's Edge's journey in this AU of mine. Sometimes I reconsider, although I'm sorta committed now, and I do enjoy it when I can buckle down to it.

~oOoOo~

This has been

Character Study: Logan Thackeray

thank you for asking and giving me this opportunity to talk! On some level, all GW2 characters are my blorbos and I could talk about any of them at length. Logan is less compelling than other GW2 characters, but that is like saying a giant is short for being 12ft tall and not 15 or 20.

[twilightdomain]

how did they make thackeray so embarrassing as a whole guy just like constantly

[vinetooth-prime]

Amira Holt

— Ascalonian/Canthan || Merc For Hire Priory Arcanist || ex-Mantle Commander, Pardoned by Her Majesty, Queen Jennah

"I don't get the magic thing. Weapons are more reliable but... I won't lie: it's pretty fuckin' sick when it works."

Born & raised in Divinity's Reach, Amira was a third-generation recruit of the Ministry Guard and inheritor of her family's career legacy. Always exceptionally skilled in her work—thanks largely to her father's constant drilling and pressure to excel—she served under several ministers, eventually (and often) working under Legate Minister Caudecus like the rest of her family.

With the reemergence of the White Mantle, led by Caudecus, tensions began to rise. Amira was locked in conflict with herself between her sense of duty, her sense of loyalty, and her sense of morality. By the attack on Divinity's Reach, Amira found herself trapped among the thick of it, innocent blood smeared on her hands from her own hesitation.

At the betrayal of her family and colleges, Amira deserted, though not in time to avoid succumbing to bloodstone poisoning consuming her right arm. When she came to, she was in a Krytan hospital with her soul fragmented (unknown to her at the time) and her arm had been amputated. Terrified of whatever sentencing she imagined to face, Amira made an escape and fled Kryta.

During her escape, her new aptitude for shadow magic began to become clear, and Amira pressed southward, eventually landing herself in Lion's Arch.

Homeless, alone, and afraid for her life, Amira turned to picking up any job offered her. This quickly lead to Amira floating day-to-day by rubbing elbows in the underground of LA, the apathy of a hard life wearing her down to take thefts, thug jobs, and even the occasional hit. She made few friends and many enemies, also chancing fate and taking opportunity hunting down bounty contracts from private postings, other governments, townships, and crews.

Through chance encounters and a string of lucky choices, Amira eventually met her doppelganger five years later. Avoiding her own death again, a shaky truce was made, which quickly lead to joining the same Priory Sector that employed her "twin".

This, in turn, lead to her joining the excursion to Cantha's reopening and enthusiastically reconnecting with "her roots", making a handful of strong friendships and facing the Dragonvoid threat near the epicenter.

In 1337AE, her arrest & pending execution by the Shining Blade was made public. A month later, she instead received a full pardon from the Crown for her crimes of high treason in exchange for the arrest of her father, murderer, and White Mantle Fanatic, Clarence Holt.