#little bit of elayne and rand and perrin

[butterflydm]

wot reread: towers of midnight (chapter 8-13)

spoilers for towers of midnight

1. Hmm, we open this Mat chapter with him pondering over the (still-sealed) letter that Verin left him and admiring the beauty of the female tavernkeeper (quickly slapping a “but I’m married” bandaid over his admiration). Strike two.

2. I genuinely am very curious about what notes might have been left behind about Mat (and Mat’s marriage) because... from Sanderson’s other writing, this doesn’t feel like an idea he would have necessarily come up with on his own? He admits that he’s a bit of a prude and his main go-to ‘romance’ route in his own books is “wow this arranged marriage is working out surprisingly well!”. So I’m really curious if post-marriage horndog!Mat was noted somewhere in the stuff Jordan left behind. And I’m keeping track of the moments because I want to see how much of a pattern it ends up being over the course of the ~post-marriage~ books.

I am also going to keep track of whether or not Mat notes any specific qualities about ~absent wifey~ that he likes and, if he does, if those qualities are things that we’ve witnessed her actually showing at any point.

3. Also, just to note: while Mat is trying to remind himself that he’s married, his ~wife~ is engaging in hostile combat actions against his friends, and will be enslaving forty Aes Sedai and killing an additional unknown number of Aes Sedai, Warders, and people who live and work in Tar Valon. But, you know, it’s her empire that’s his enemy, not her.

(that line really is... the sad thing is that line is actually great out of context but, wow, it makes absolutely ZERO sense in terms of Mat’s actual relationship with ~Fortuona~. It’s such a bonkers delusional line for Mat to have said at any point during their relationship as it exists in the books. It really does feel like Jordan thought up that line first and then never got around to actually writing a relationship that could live up to its sentiment but jammed it in anyway because he couldn’t let it go even though it didn’t fit with the relationship as-written. But leaving it in really makes Mat come across as extremely reality-denying in terms of his relationship. And, hey, maybe that was what Jordan was going for, idk)

4. Verin is betting here that Mat’s curiosity is stronger than his desire to stay away from Aes Sedai plans, but she doesn’t know that the narrative has spent the last few books beating his curiosity and critical thinking out of him and turning his irrational dislike of Aes Sedai up to bizarrely high levels so that he’s willing to make out with a slaver. Verin should have just ALSO shared the info in the letter with Egwene when she was with her, but it was Verin’s turn to hold the Idiot Ball of Making The Plot Happen, so she did not (honestly, either Mat reading the letter or Verin telling Egwene the contents of the letter would also have saved us a bunch of time in the story).

5. More of weird fey creature Mat here, who acts like he is bound by his Oaths in a bizarre metaphysical way, instead of him just reluctantly keeping his word because he’s a good man. Like... you haven’t sworn on the Oath Rod, Mat. If whatever Verin is telling you to do actually goes against your morals just... break your word. You were willing to do it when it came to the Seanchan Oaths, because an oath under duress is not binding, and you seemed to be aware of that back during WH. The whole “you must follow your oaths to the letter even if they lead you into immoral acts” belief is NOT honorable. But this ties back into the way that Jordan had Mat acting with Tuon in CoT & KoD -- the logic of going “because she’s ~my wife~ (by Seanchan law), I am ~legally/morally obligated~ to support and protect her, no matter what evil deeds she may choose to commit and no matter how much she might be hurting other people”.

So now keeping his promises is about Mat operating by Fey Rules of Literally Obeying His Word, rather than keeping his promises because he’s a good person despite his protests. Because a good man wouldn’t support and protect a slaver, so Jordan had to throw away the part of Mat that was a good man in order for Mat x Tuon to ‘work’. But then (this ties back to horndog!Mat), it also leads to it feeling like Mat doesn’t cheat on Tuon right now only because it might break his Mystical Fey Creature Oaths rather than him actually feeling any personal inclination towards being a faithful husband.

6. At the start of this chapter, Mat thought to himself that he wouldn’t give Melli his ~best smile~ on account of him being a married man and... well, guess what he does only two pages later? Yep, gives her his best smile that he personally believes melts women’s hearts. Two pages! Also, he thinks that he’s Not Allowed to stare at her lips (because he’s married) even as he’s calculating the precise fullness of said lips that he’s Definitely Not staring at, lol.

7. Mat notices a pretty serving girl and tips her a coin for her smile. For, um. For Thom’s sake. lol. Strike three. Technically, Mat is already out, but I will continue to count strikes.

8. lol, the bouncer at the tavern, Berg, is as dubious about Mat’s future faithfulness to ~his slaver wife~ as I am. Berg gives Mat a suspicious look despite that fact that Mat. This is hilarious. Mat SAT HIM DOWN and talked to him about how he wouldn’t be wooing away the woman that Berg is in a relationship with because Mat is MARRIED NOW. lol, no wonder the man is so suspicious of him! That just sends so many alarm bells ringing. Portrait of a Man In Denial over how unhappy he is about being married.

9. Strike four, Mat notices the golden hair, nice eyes, and full bosom of one of the women he’s gambling with at the next tavern, and tries to convince himself that he doesn’t actually find full breasts incredibly attractive anymore (he noticed Melli’s “ample bosom” only a handful of pages ago so... um, yeah, that’s a boldfaced lie to himself. Sanderson might mention breasts less often than Jordan does but when he does mention them, it’s been in Mat PoV so far). We’re several pages into Mat’s PoV at this point and we’ve mostly focused on him doing his best to pretend he feels no regret over being married and Not Being Allowed to notice all the women that he’s noticing for, um, Talmanes and Thom. He also tries to give his fellow gambler one of his heart-fluttering smiles (that he said at the start of the chapter he wouldn’t give out anymore on account of being ~a married man~) and tries to pretend that he isn’t disappointed when she doesn’t react.

10. Anyway, the plot important thing that happens here is that Mat finds out that the gholam is in Caemlyn (people found with their throats ripped out). That finally draws him out of his depressed-over-being-married funk.

11. We learn that he’s sent a letter to Elayne and gotten no reply and he’s actually QUITE worked up over it, and over the fact that Elayne has never so much as kissed him on the cheek to thank him for saving her life. And it’s an interesting change that his internal objection here doesn’t end up being “but of course I wouldn’t want Elayne to kiss me because I’m a married man” but is instead “I don’t want royalty to kiss me” which sends him down a spiral of thinking about how he’s trapped into the Seanchan nobility now. Hmm. Interesting. Anyway, that’s strike five.

12. Mat does bring up three positive qualities of Tuon here (that aren’t related to whether or not he’s capable of being attracted to her: as we’ve just been witnessing, Mat is capable of being attracted to the majority of female characters in the books, so physical attraction is fairly irrelevant here):

a. good at stones: verified true

b. keen of wit: no textual evidence that this is true

c. ‘good for talking to’: negative textual evidence that this is true; most of Mat’s conversations with her in CoT & KoD seemed to end up in frustration or unpleasantness (he even mentions here that she’s frustrating ‘most of the time’), with him thinking on at least one occasion late in KoD about how he hates that she treats him like he’s her property

So... we’re at 33% Verified True on Mat’s accuracy scale of Tuon’s Good Qualities, 33% Just Lying To Himself, and 33% is a question mark.

(though I would argue Tuon’s lack of insight or critical thinking in her own PoV chapters argues against her being ~keen of wit~, unless Mat just means she’s good at puns or something, which is also not in evidence. I suspect this is more of an Informed Attribute, where the author(s) hope that just repeating over and over that Tuon has a keen wit will make people believe she does even if she never does anything to prove it).

13. Mat feels guilt over leaving Tylin tied up for the gholam to kill back in Ebou Dar. Tylin’s relationship to Mat really does feel like it’s married so tightly to Tuon’s relationship with Mat, a transfer of ~ownership~ in a horrible gross way. Tylin’s abuse of Mat is what kept him in the situation he was in when he met Tuon, and Tylin’s abuse of Mat really does feel like it foreshadows the way that Tuon treats Mat as well, which is definitely a Bad Omen for his future.

14. Awww, for all that Mat was negatively thinking about royalty earlier, he thinks here about how the right Queen is now on the throne of Andor (with the emphasis Mat’s!).

15. Strike six. Mat sees a stately older woman in the inn where Thom is performing and thinks about how he’ll keep her in mind for later. Hastily adding ~for his men~ onto his thoughts. He tells Thom about the gholam and they leave for Mat’s camp.

16. Mat thinks with frustration about how Bayle Doman and Leilwin née Egeanin no longer have any affection for him (it’s because you’re married to a slaver and they have rejected the empire; hope this helps). We also get a reminder about the holes in his memory (foggy patches from when he picked up the dagger in Shadar Logoth until when he was healed of it in TDR).

17. Mat comes across as pretty desperate for validation & affection here (specifically from people that he already knows and respects). That’s really standing out to me -- he thought about it a lot in the last book too, about how much he wanted Joline, Teslyn, & Edesina to be grateful to him for saving their lives. He thinks the same here about Elayne, and about Doman and Leilwin née Egeanin. And he doesn’t want to think about how his own actions (being abrasive towards Elayne & co; picking the slavers over the slaves) might have made people turn away from him or think less of him. Save someone once, and it shouldn’t matter how you behave in the future, right? (wrong) It’s also interesting how the clear loyalty of his soldiers doesn’t scratch that itch for him at all. Maybe because he attributes that to the memories in his head and his luck rather than himself as a person?

18. When Mat claims to Thom that he’s a good judge of character, he gets a very doubtful raised eyebrow back. Thom’s relationship with Mat in the last few books has been... honestly, somewhat weird. I almost wonder... we haven’t gotten any Thom PoV for quite a long time, I don’t think, so I wonder if Thom is just masking his actual feelings about Mat because he knows that he needs Mat in order to rescue Moiraine. Because, for the most part, Thom has just avoided Having Opinions about the mess that is Mat’s life and choices, despite the fact that Thom is (supposedly) fond enough of an Aes Sedai that he’s desperate to rescue her from captivity, and also deeply fond of Elayne and friends with Juilin. Is Thom playing Mat the way that Mat was playing the Tairen nobles at the start of TSR? Letting himself appear to be a non-critical buddy because there’s something that he wants out of Mat? I will have to keep an eye out to see if Thom shows any affection towards/inclination to hang out with Mat AFTER Moiraine gets rescued and he doesn’t need Mat anymore. Thom is, after all, one of the best players of Daes Dae’mar in the series, we are told.

19. Mat talks to Teslyn here, internally noting that she has lost most of the “nervous skittishness” that she’d picked up when she was enslaved as damane. He likes Teslyn, he thinks, but he does not trust her. Despite Teslyn never doing a single thing to breach his trust, unlike SOME people that I could name. Ah! There are rumors in Caemlyn about the Seanchan assult on the White Tower but (just like he dismissed Tuon’s threats back in CoT/KoD), Mat has dismissed those rumors as just “stories of raken drifting up from the south” (I wonder if I should be keeping track of all of the “Mat Forces Himself Into Willful Denial Over Tuon/the Seanchan’s Evil Choices” moments). Teslyn and the others are planning to leave now to go join the reunited White Tower (which is what most of the rumors talk about).

20. Hmm, Teslyn thanks Mat here for helping her escape the Seanchan but then she talks with him about the importance of maintaining “illusions with yourself”. I actually did wonder, when I was doing my reread of CoT & KoD, if Teslyn’s patience with Mat, even when he was being a complete asshole, was due to her seeing how much he was lying to himself to try to make himself accept his fate. I think I may have been right on that. And she gives him an escape route, if he looks for it in the future -- that if he ever decides to seek out the White Tower, he has a friend there willing to help him. Considering that she knows that he’s married to a slaver (one who actively tried to re-enslave her personally), that is a HUGE offer. A way out of his trap with the Seanchan -- protection at the White Tower. And Mat, who has been desperate for validation since the start of TGS is now “feeling as unsettled as if someone had kicked his legs out from under him”. Teslyn has also, in this one conversation, shown him more kindness than Tuon has shown in their entire relationship. So... Mat has at least one place to run to now, if he runs away from ~Fortuona~ post-canon. Teslyn has seen the worst of him and extends him this offer anyway, so he knows that she won’t turn him away if he comes to her for help. This conversation is SO good. Mat is thrown so off-balance by Teslyn’s kindness and genuine care for him.

21. *sigh* I really wish that Mat were caring more about Nalesean and the Redarms being murdered by the gholam than about Tylin’s murder. I do understand why -- because Mat feels responsible for her death in a way that he doesn’t for Nalesean’s -- but... ugh, kinda sucks that his guilt over Tylin’s death is now the biggest part of how he feels about Tylin, given how much misery and pain she caused Mat when she was alive. Not necessarily... incorrect, in terms of how people’s brains can work in this sort of situation, but it does suck. Anyway, Mat is now the prime object of the gholam’s attention, having been sent to personally murder him (likely by Moridin, I would assume?). Teslyn saves his life during this fight btw, using the Power to pull him back before the gholam can kill him (she can do this because he took his medallion off to fight it). Five people were successfully killed by the gholam in this attack before it runs away (it has been ordered to try to avoid too much attention).

23. Oddly, Tuon is one of the people that the gholam threatens to kill. Honestly, I feel like it would have been smarter for the Shadow to court the Seanchan/Tuon instead of going against them, since ~Fortuona~ is already so hostile to Aes Sedai. But the Shadow cannot always make smart moves, I guess. The gholam doesn’t threaten to kill Olver but does threaten Tuon, Thom, and Noal. Given that it apparently got its information from a Redarm that it killed a few days ago or from observing Mat’s camp, you’d think that Olver would be on the list either way (and it really makes no sense that Tuon would be on the list? She hasn’t been traveling with Mat for at least a month at this point).

I suspect that the general reader is supposed to care that Tuon is under risk of assassination? But it’s baffling to me as to WHY I should care when she literally JUST had her people assault the White Tower, kidnapping and enslaving forty women and most likely also killing more people than that in total. The narrative has never given me a good reason why I should care about whether or not Tuon gets assassinated besides “vague marriage prophecy bs”. The narrative has never shown that Tuon is actually a better candidate for empress for the Westlands Seanchan than some other random High Blood would be, as long as they aren’t a Darkfriend like Suroth; it just wants us to assume that she is. Her behavior has been just as horrible as any other High Blood’s. Why should I believe she’s a better choice as empress than the next High Blood down in rank? We have never been given a reason.

Now, if Tuon had had even a single ounce of positive character development during the circus storyline, then this would be an entirely different ballgame! But she not only didn’t, she has actively doubled-down on her fear and hatred of ‘marath’damane’.

So, yeah... why on earth should I be invested in Mat wanting to save her life? The narrative never gives me a reason to believe she’s capable of becoming a worthy leader of people. She’s petty, arrogant, and cruel. Basically, a younger version of Elaida with even more power and less self-awareness than Elaida ever had.

24. Note that I do not consider Mat acknowledging Joline as pretty to be a strike against his marriage because it’s not him noticing with any kind of intent that he then tries to pretend doesn’t exist -- he genuinely does not find her an appealing temptation at this point, due to their personal history (though said negative history is pretty much entirely Mat’s fault #JolineDeservedBetter).

25. Ah, Perrin and the others have arrived by the statue that Rand told Nynaeve about back in TGS, so I’m guessing that Tam will be leaving soon to go get nearly killed by his son. Anyway, Perrin and Galad meet here face to face and agree to have their armies fight each other. So... that’s going... well?

26. ELAYNE! <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3

27. Trying to figure out a way to get the Andoran nobles to actually unite before the Last Battle rather than squabbling for power, Elayne decides that it’s time to claim the Sun Throne. Hmm, I do feel like Sanderson’s more casual style of narration is more pronounced here with Elayne than it’s been with the other characters. All off a sudden, it just feels like the narration is in a hurry, almost more like an outline than prose.

28. Ah, we learn that the reason that Elayne never responded to Mat’s first letter is that she never received it. Her secretary, Master Norry, dismissed Mat as just another leader of a mercenary band, which is why he was granted a space outside the city but no audience with Elayne. He does give her Mat’s second letter, telling her that the captain of this mercenary band is being particularly persistent. Elayne is keeping all these mercenary bands around because they will likely be needed for the Last Battle because, unlike Perrin, SHE isn’t a FOOL.

29. Reading the letter (which does have a lot of misspellings, etc in it, but Mat also mentions that he was planning on rewriting it to be pretty if Thom would have stopped laughing at him) gives Elayne ALL the emotions as she realizes that Mat and Thom (and maybe Olver) are alive and have escaped from Ebou Dar. Mat mentions here that he thinks Elayne’s ass is pretty but also that he barely looked because he knows that she would have kicked his ass and also he’s married w/e, which I feel like should count as strike seven even though it’s Elayne again, because Mat has an emotional attachment to Elayne that he doesn’t have to the more random women that he’s Noticing all over the place, but I’ll only count it as an additional tenth of the point and say he’s at strike six-point-one. Birgitte, upon reading the letter, mentions that Mat also has a nice ass, so I guess she was Looking in Ebou Dar.

Confirmed nice butts:

Elayne & Mat (here in ToM)

Aviendha & Rand (in TFoH)

Probably Min too, I guess

Mat being so worked up over Elayne not responding to his first letter actually makes me wonder if he deliberately put in things into this second letter to try to make her react, if only to fuss at him or tell him off -- telling her she has a nice ass, telling her that he’s married. Because he assumes that she did read his first letter and actively chose not to meet with him.

30. Elayne tells Norry to arrange a meeting with Mat immediately and to tell him to make sure to bring Thom as well. She also begins to think about how Mat and the Band could potentially be useful for bringing Cairhien to her. We get some more insight into her reasoning here as well -- after Rand dies, Andor is one of the biggest potential targets for the Seanchan empire to the south, and they cannot afford for it to merely be part of ~the Dragon’s Empire~ that will potentially fall into chaos after his death. She needs to do strong nation-building NOW, before the Last Battle, to try to make sure it will survive after the Last Battle. “The woman in her cringed to think of planning for Rand’s death, but the Queen could not be so squeamish.” She notes that, as far away from Rand as she currently is, all she ever feels from him these days is a cold anger. Don’t worry, Elayne. Min was literally right there with him and that’s all she ever seemed to be able to sense too.

But this is actually very similar to how Rand wanted to make sure that Arad Doman chose its own king to avoid falling into chaos after his death in the Last Battle, so Elayne and Rand manage to be on the same wavelength even if they are still cruelly separated by the narrative. This is one of the things that @markantonys and I strongly agree on: that a big part of the reason Elayne and Rand are separated for so long is because Elayne is the one person who could have helped Rand with his rulership struggles as an trained leader who understands the issues and understands that you NEED to be ruthless sometimes (but also understands when not to be ruthless).

31. With Elayne, we were still pre-epiphany but when we jump to Min’s PoV, it is decidedly post, as she can feel warmth in the bond and not just Rand’s cold anger.

32. “Alanna didn’t often reveal her intimate connection to the Dragon Reborn.” lol, except for all the Wise Ones, in order to wiggle out of punishments. And all the Aes Sedai, to try to establish precedence. Except for that. Anyway, she’s disappeared from her rooms in the Stone of Tear.

33. When Cadsuane and Min point out that Cadsuane cares that Alanna is missing because she’s a ~tool~ to use on Rand, Nynaeve says that Alanna is “no more helpful” to Cadsuane than Min. So... she tells Cadsuane everything and obeys her frequently? Why is the narrative trying to pretend that Min isn’t constantly helping out Cadsuane? It literally just happened again at the end of TGS! She’s been obediently telling all her viewings to Cadsuane for her to dissect! Nynaeve was IN THE ROOM when this was happening! Or is this meant to reflect Nynaeve’s own distorted view of Min?

34. oh, lol, when Min reacts to Rand arriving in the bond, her Maiden ‘guards’ promptly abandon her and race off to find Rand. So, I guess the Min-Maiden relationship is still... not great, lol.

35. Rand shows up and I really dislike that all of this new!Rand is filtered through outside PoVs. It makes it hard for me to emotionally relate with zen!Rand because I can’t see his interior world. This is also a place where the timeline fuzziness kinda hits the worst, because we’re going right from cold!Rand in Elayne’s bond to warm!Rand in Min’s bond. Moving Rand’s epiphany further back in this set of books would help with that. Min actually panics for a moment, upon seeing Rand, because his eyes look older and he doesn’t seem familiar. “Had the Rand she loved been stolen away, replaced by some ancient force of a man she could never know or understand?” Hmm.

And then he smiles and she does recognize him -- responding to her panic in the bond, maybe?

36. I will, uh, note that Rand did not go directly to Min when he arrived in Tear. Just gonna quietly note that down. He waited for her to find him.

37. He talks to Rhuarc (and the assembled Aiel, including the Maidens) and tells them that he knows that he has toh to them and that he is prepared to meet it. And Rand finally seems to have his relationship with the Maidens back (with Min still baffled at the interactions between Rand and the Aiel).

38. It actually seems clear here (even filtered through Min) that Rand is still somewhat of a boiling pot, though the wound has been lanced. But now he really FEELS the pain over Lan heading towards Tarwin’s Gap, when before he was able to numb most of his emotions through the general ice-cold/molten-hot anger that he was constantly repressing with the flame & void. Now he’s feeling again and that can be... difficult. But he’s still rush-rush-rush and talking about potentially dying soon. So it’s clear that there’s complicated stuff going on in his head and we are TRAPPED in Min’s PoV and only get hints of it second-hand through the bond! But he does promise Nynaeve that he will send Lan help.

39. Rand gives Min the mission to find out why Callandor is key to the prophecies. lol, sure, whatever. I guess we have to give Min ~something important~ to do because she doesn’t actually have a plot purpose and hasn’t had one in quite a long while. Hey, if it means she’s actually doing something and not just surgically-attaching herself to Rand at all times, then I guess it’s worth it.

40. Anyway, Rand tells Cadsuane that she succeeded by failing, lol.

41. Min bashing on the nobles for not having a purpose when she only has a job because her boyfriend gave her one, lol.

42. Anyway, Rand lines up the nobles and susses out that Weiramon and Anaiyella are Darkfriends. If I recall correctly, I’d guessed on Weiramon back during my initial read of TPoD (way back when it was first published) so it was very vindicating for me when he was finally called out as a DF lol. I remember feeling vindicated, anyway, lol. Anaiyella was one I could have gone either way on, but it makes sense for Weiramon to have an accomplice. I... don’t mind Rand’s Darkfriend-vision because, yeah, let’s move the plot along, lol. I just, again, wish that it had been pushed towards the end of this book instead. But the talent itself kinda goes along with the other stuff Rand has been saying about how he’s a bright beacon for the Shadow now and cannot avoid TDO’s eyes.

Instead of killing Weiramon and Anaiyella, he sends them off to bring a message to the Shadow that they will no longer be able to hide among his allies.

43. There’s a great moment with Rand and his dad, though I kinda roll my eyes at Min needing a ~very special~ formal introduction to Tam (who she already knows at this point because he’s been hanging around Tear for three days).

Ah, well. If I do my best to ignore Min, lol, I really liked that scene.

I really do wish that we’d had even a tiny bit of Rand PoV, though. It’s very frustrating only seeing him through other people’s eyes.

I feel like this has gotten long enough (I spent... a lot of time talking about Mat, as I’d suspected that I might, lol) so I will end this post here.

[markantonys]

I'm curious how the show is gonna handle Rand's relationship with the Aiel. It should be very interesting. Bookwise he kinda rejects their culture/seeing himself as Aiel cause of him clinging to his old life. They might just frame it differently, maybe he just doesn't feel a right to it cause he wasn't raised Aiel. Overall it seems like the show might be going in the direction of people in general being more receptive to learning about Aiel culture over them just handwaving them away as weird (like Perrin's interactions with Avi when book Perrin wouldn't have done that). Maybe Rand is more willing to learn cause he wants to learn more about his birth parents

yeah i don't know what to expect in this regard! my only particular annoyance with aiel-culture-related stuff in the books is that the books would introduce something as culturally or thematically important, but then shuffle it aside once it became inconvenient to the plot. i.e:

the aiel are introduced as very anxious to tie rand to them so that he doesn't destroy them. but when later plot prevents rand from having aiel hanging around him, they stop hanging around him and aren't overly concerned about him ignoring them (bar complaints here and there, with little attempt to actually Do Anything to make him stop ignoring them).

avirand's relationship is introduced as a crucial binding cord between rand and the aiel and as significant to general aiel-wetland relations, but this is dropped once later plot prevents them from spending time together, and aviendha is never used as a mediator in rand-aiel conflicts when by all logic she should be since that was one of the main narrative purposes of their relationship upon introduction.

the maidens & wise ones are so concerned about keeping avirand together for binding cord reasons that they chase off any wetlander woman who tries to hit on him, but once RJ decided that a) he wanted min to hook up with rand without being obstructed by the aiel surrounding him and b) there would be no opportunity for her to become first-sisters with aviendha before doing so, then suddenly the maidens & wise ones are all about min and becoming top min/rand shippers and aviendha is saying it's totally fine to make an exception to the first-sister rule for min even though she is very adamant about upholding it for elayne. when by all logic, the maidens & wise ones should NOT be happy about another wetlander woman with no connection to aviendha trying to get with rand (they'd have no reason to think min is any different from isendre, cairhienin nobles, etc in this regard) and aviendha should be much more resistant to making exceptions to rules we've been told are hugely culturally significant to her.

so my one wish for all aiel-culture-related stuff in the show is that if the show introduces something as culturally or thematically important, it should commit to that importance for the rest of the series rather than sweeping it aside once it's no longer convenient to the plot. that doesn't mean rand/wetlander-aiel relations needs to be a major theme or plot point of every single season for the rest of the show, because ofc it should naturally fade more into the background as the story goes on and other things come up, but it's gotta be either a) rand is tied securely enough to the aiel by the time he has to go off and do other stuff that it makes sense they're not concerned about things like him ditching them and getting a new wetlander girlfriend, or b) if he's not tied securely enough, then make the aiel react accordingly and actually try to use aviendha to intervene with him on their behalf.

hopefully this ramble makes sense djkjfg and it didn't even end up having much to do with rand's personal attitudes towards aiel culture, so i got off topic a bit! but for me, i am good with whatever show!rand's personal attitude ends up being as long as things remain emotionally consistent throughout the course of the show.

[themonkeycabal]

Highlights from the WoT finale off the top of my head:

SPOILERS obviously.

* Lanfear yeeting Lan and Moiraine out the waygate. ‘Walk, bitches’. L O L Forever

* Rand cutting to the chase with the whole Turak scene. I kind of don’t think he entirely meant to do that, but I enjoyed it anyway.

* Uno being a Hero of the Horn. I got misty, okay? I don’t think the timing’s right for him to be Gaidal Cain, but I’m not dug in over it or anything.

* I see you Birgitte. Vaguely because they haven’t properly cast you yet, but I SEE YOU!

* Mat being a clever boy with the dagger.

* Mat saying he remembered once he blew the Horn. Very good. That got me a little misty, too. That was a nice moment to give to Mat. He goes through quite a lot and he can be a Hero of the Horn as a little treat.

* And on that subject: “Dovie’andi se tovya sagain!” (I might’ve punched the air a bit)

* Elayne reminding Nynaeve that, whatever else, she’s still a Wisdom. Elayne’s so great, I’m so pleased with the casting.

* Egwene’s whole thing on the tower with Renna. Get fucked, Renna.

* Egwene standing between Rand (and Mat) and Ishamael.

* Perrin showing up with the shield to stand with Egwene against Ishamael.

* The way they all ended up on the tower. Ta’veren *nods*

* Moiraine telling Lan she always saw him as the better of the two of them. Bless. I mean, we all knew what she meant, but it made him so angsty. We don’t need so much angsty Lan, much as I do adore the man.

* Moiraine raising the banner. Yes.

* Heron brand. Yes. “Twice and twice shall he be marked … Once the heron to set his path.” Watching the show is kind of like seeing prophecy unfold. I keep looking for the Signs of Things Foretold and am so thrilled when they appear.

* Lanfear looking so proud of herself for fucking with Ishamael’s plans until she realized he fucked with her’s first. Oh lol. Forsaken gonna forsake.

* Moghedien being an absolute fucking weirdo creeper. Perfection. Loved it.

Lowlights:

* We have to wait how long for season 3? Nonsense.

* Not nearly enough of you are watching this. Tumblr, I swear it’s made for you.

[asha-mage]

WoT Musings: S2 Episode 3

GETTING CHILLS

This is one of my favorite sequences in TGH, one of my favorite Nynaeve moments, hell probably one of my favorite series moments, and I want them to nail it so bad.

Looks like the first test is going to be about Nynaeve loosing her father and mother. Makes sense since she never faced Aginor and Balthamel in the show. The choice was about letting go of the desire to persue revenge and fight, to choose being Aes Sedai over that.

Interesting choice to make the new 'Wisdom' Natti Cauthon instead of figment tyrant. It makes what's happening cut a little harder.

'How is Rand. is he happy?' FUCKING OUCH

Offfffffffff. On one hand they don't have a whole episode to commit to this bit, so their having to use shorthand hand.....but DAMN is that some knife twisting. I dig it though. Instead of a tyrant Nynaeve could fight off, it's something she can't fix because of her own block, her anger and fear. She has to choose between cold empty comfort for a dying man....and going back to seek the power to do actual good. Very very clever.

OHHHHHHHHH THAT THIRD TRIAL DO HAVE THOUGHTS

THE SOUTHERN TWANG ON THAT SENCHAN VOICE IS WOOF

Bye Uno! I would feel bad, but I'm afraid you're a funny bit part that's an easy sacrificial lamb here. It was gonna be you or Masema, and he's got problems to cause Perrin latter, so it's you!

I am really really REALLY digging the mix of Dynastic China and Versailles Era France in Cairhien's design in the show.

I am going to need SO MANY FICS of Logain and Rand fucking nasty during that garden scene you have NO IDEA

Asmodean is a going to be a good teacher to Rand solely because Logain is going to set the bar so fucking low.

Lanfear putting forward this chill cool innkeeper lady persona in Cairhien only to invade Rand's dreams to show off the true depths of her crazy where it's safe to do so, and ALSO to trick Rand into burning down her inn and thus leave him feeling guilt ridden/indebted to her is SO ON BRAND

Elayne and Egwene's friendship is already making me So Happy. I can't wait till we get Elayne and Nynaeve road trip shenanigans later on in the series.

Nynaeve's Acceptatron test is something I am going to have to sit with. I really really like the fact that just like in the books she let the arch fade away the first time, and I really like that once again it was HER that forced it to come back by channeling, something she wasn't supposed to be able to do in the test at all. The important part of this choice in the book is that it's Nynaeve DECIDING to go back, to claim the power she needs to protect those she loves, choosing that over paradise. The show's choice to instead demonstrate that such a paradise would be empty and fleeting if she DID choose it, is....one I am going to have to chew on.

Overall the show continues it's trend of adapting the core of the books, while changing the details to better suit the new medium, and I'm board with that.

[hikarielizabethbloom]

I know this ep's gonna break my Siuanraine heart and I'm ready for it!

I was not prepared for this to be the first scene

It is always Rand's fault

Lan, how can you stand him???

I stand by what I said, i love Mat but I don't care what happens to him. At least now he is with my girl!

Nynaeve and Elayne appear.

Egwene, my beloved.

Alanna and her men. The dream!

Wife and husband should just stop being stupid and be friends again. I love this friendship so much. The chemistry these two have is insane.

I love how Siuan treats Rand like a bug that is bothering her 😂

Nynaeve and Elayne. Me: alexa play Just Impolite by plushgun

Mat, two secs after meeting the Forsaken: is sex involved in this? Because I'm totally into it.

Finally, my son is back! I missed him. Are all these women going to adopt Perrin?

Imagine if your destiny was to babysit Rand. No surprise, Moiraine is so annoyed all the time.

Liandrin really said 'I'm gonna fucking it all up! And I'm gonna do it chaotically.'

Lanfear 🔥

Logain and Lan need to be paired together more often. They have good chemistry.

Lanfear:

So they did adopt Perrin.

Nynaeve is a little bit impressed by Elayne 😂

Egwene x Revenge

He is not Alanna! At least Moiraine and Lan are together.

Look, Rand did one good thing. Moiraine and Lan are so precious.

Noooooooo! They made me cry 😱😭

Vote:

I can't believe is already over this season. Next ep is gonna be so good... Nynaeve in the promo🔥

[toastandjamie]

So an AU where Mat isn’t Ta’veren and becomes our POV in the Black Tower.

Now the first dilemma I faced was how much Mat should be integrated into the main plot, especially given that the Black Tower isn’t created until book five. So here’s what I got so far input for what this goofy little guy should get up to is welcome.

So after Winter Night, Perrin, Rand, and Egwene go with Morraine and Lan leaving our non-Ta’veren ordinary guy Mat behind. Now Mat, not knowing the details, is quite upset because as far as he knows his two best friends just ditched him to go on an adventure without him. When Nynaeve goes after them Mat tries to tag along but Nynaeve very firmly sends him back home. However, Ta’veren or not this is still Mat Cauthon we’re talking about so he goes after them himself. He spends the rest of Eye of The World having narrow misses with the plot, running into Thom at Whitebridge after the Myrdraal incident and drags that poor man all the way to Camlyn only to discover that he once again missed his friends and now has no idea where they’ve gone.

In The Great Hunt we find Mat traveling with Thom and Dana as an apprentice Gleeman, until they meet up with Rand in Cairihan. Rand tells him about the the horn but leaves out the whole, he’s the dragon reborn bit. Now this version of Mat doesn’t believe he’s a hero but he also has yet to discover Consequences so he really wants to be one, so he immediately insists on joining Rand to find the horn of Valere. Rand tries the tried and true method of being the worst to your loved ones to drive them away for their own good but while it DOES upset Mat, you aren’t shaking him that easily especially since he’s already invited to that party Rand and friends needs to break into. Things end up going relatively the same from their and they all go to Falme, Mat gets a late reveal there that Rand is the Dragon Reborn, we have Seanchen problems and Mat is still the one to blow the horn of Valere.

The Dragon Reborn baby, in order to try and keep Mat safely out of the plot Rand convinces him to escort the girls back to Tarvalon. Now no one but Rand and Perrin know he blew the horn of Valere and at their urging Mat decides to keep it that way, but he quickly finds that when your a man and not Ta’veren or the known sounder of the horn of Valere you very quickly get bored of the White Tower. After spending some time gambling at every tavern in Tarvalon and training a bit with the warders and Gawyn and Galad, the girls give him the letter for Morgause and send him on his way no Armylin permission slip required. Things go pretty similarly as they do in the book, Mat picks up a depressed Thom, discovers a plot to kill the girl’s, gets some fireworks and breaks into the Stone, though he is now slightly less effective without his supernatural luck.

The Shadow Rising finds our boy Mat feeling severely put out and a bit helpless. The girls as usual were less then grateful for the rescue and Rand and Perrin are too busy to talk to him. He still goes to Egwene for advice and hears about the Red Stone Door and still goes through it, though this time he actually gets to ask his three questions before getting kicked out since there’s now only One Ta’veren in there. Mat’s still contemplating what his confusing answers mean when Rand pops out, and things continue from there as planned. This time however Mat does not go to the Wastes and instead joins Thom and Julin as unwanted bodyguards for Nynaeve and Elayne. Hilarity ensues. More importantly however during the Tanchico arc Mat starts considering the possibility of learning to channel. After all, the girls aren’t wrong about him not being much help against the black ajah without channeling. So using the scraps of information he has he tries to teach himself how to channel. But it’s not going so well. However once they reach Salidar he finds a certain someone who might be able to help with that…

In Fires of Heaven and onwards we get more of Mat feeling helpless to protect his friends and using his most powerful weapon, his puppy dog eyes, he gets Logain to grudgingly agree to help teach him though one problem is that Logain is gentled but Mat won’t let that stop him. Egwene shows up, Logain is de-gentled and Mat get’s the bright idea to take the bow healed Logain and head to the Black Tower. Mat proceeds to get tangled up in both the Black Tower sub plot and Elayne’s Succession plot line. He also finds Olver at some point. That’s all I got so far

[highladyluck]

Season 2, Episode 4 Liveblog

Teaser:

Selene is so sanguine about her entire livelihood going up in smoke! It’s almost like this has happened before

Werewolf Perrin rumors have been crushed!

The problem with the Forsaken Ski Chalet is that there’s a Myrdraal infestation in the basement

It is a personal insult that the subtitles just say [chanting] when Ishy is clearly dialing up Lanfear (also if anyone can overwrite the audio for this scene with the dial-up modem sound I want to see the clip)

DARK PROPHECY IS A GO

Awww she’s an amateur artist

Dollars to donuts that ‘older sister’ is an Aes Sedai

It has to be so painful coming back home

Selene is so sanguine about her entire livelihood going up in smoke! It’s almost like this has happened before

How long, Selene? Exactly how long has it been?

I’m gonna need fanart/fanfic of the Forsaken Ski Chalet up near Kinslayer’s Dagger

Awwwwwwwwwww

The Accepted sleeves look AWESOME I know I keep saying that but it’s true! They’re little embroidered ombre flames

Alanna is like ‘I don’t do therapy, I only do sex advice’

Hmmmmm, that doesn’t sound like stilling aftermath, another point in favor of ‘shielded’

It’s good that they are namedropping Cads this early; she came out of nowhere in the books.

DARK, Alanna. Also I bet I know what that change in Moiraine was; the timeframe is right for it to be when Gitara died & she got her quest.

Moiraine is on the case!

Ooooooooooooh this is going to be FUN

DAMN so that’s why she wanted that specific red wine. This feels very on par with the books- Moiraine a step behind but trying desperately to stay in the loop and get Rand what she thinks he needs

Moiraine, damn

Yeah, no point letting him destroy himself until all value has been extracted from him :/

Elayne like ‘she’s been promoted’ lmao she would think it was just that

Oh Egwene, you have not even begun to feel like shit

Ooooh someone gave Liandrin her marching orders

FORESHADOWING

Awww it’s Hopper! Hi Hopper

Werewolf Perrin rumors have been crushed! It’s ok he is a werewolf in my heart, the way Rand is a ghost in my heart and Mat is a vampire in my heart. And by ‘in my heart’ I mean ‘in the subtext’

Huh, interesting thing with the visions

Perrin like ‘excuse me, why did I not get an instruction manual and personal tutoring, this is a shitty apprenticeship so far’

None of the Tower’s fucking business honestly (this is also why info about the Power doesn’t get shared but whatever)

Lmao Selene you lie about more than that

Her face when Rand says ‘you’d be surprised’ lmao, that’s a Lanfear Face (TM)

Oh honey you haven’t even broken the world yet

“[dice rattling]” IT’S MY BOY!!!

Is Min gonna have Mat kidnapped by the Seanchan and taken to Falme? I am INTRIGUED

I’m glad the show explores the rift in families created by the long lives of Aes Sedai

Liandrin says ‘Rescue mission! You love a rescue mission!’

Alanna does not like Dark Prophecies written in blood, I guess?

Ooooh there’s that Damodred spirit (political maneuvering)

“This is my room.” - Elayne

“didn’t ask, don’t care” - Nyneave

Egwene no no no you already have enough trauma you don’t need to go to Falme

Uh oh, always a bad sign when Ishy shows up in your dreams (I love that the non-ta’veren are getting Ishy dreams!) also at this point it should be obv to everyone that Liandrin is bad news bears, even if you missed the lying

Oooooh interesting, what IS In Cairhein?

The problem with the Forsaken Ski Chalet is that there’s a Myrdraal infestation in the basement

Lmao like she didn’t know

Selene doesn’t know anything about being seen as a monster, nope

Oh ok that bit about her soul is great

Rand is vanilla

What the hell

Wow that is the most awkward thing I can imagine happening between Rand and Moiraine, you’re gonna give him a complex about… killing… women… I see

I cannot wait to see Lanfear do some horror movie shit

YEAH

AVI NEXT EP!!!

[ksfoxwald]

Wheel of Time - Thoughts and Spoilers

Not quite caught up on Wheel of Time, but my thoughts through episode 3:

The Seanchan design is so extra and it's absolutely perfect

Uno was... not enough of a fan favorite I guess? tbh I don't have strong opinions on him, and he's kind of one of those characters that didn't really have any relevance past book 2 but RJ kept writing obligatory scenes with him bc that man did not know how to just let characters go, so it's probably best to have him go out with a bang and be unambiguously dead in a very dramatic way.

I'm glad they did let him say "fuck" before he died, though, having a character whose only personality trait is that he swears all the time in a world where the worst swear is "bloody" is weaksauce.

Elayne is such a delightfully earnest but not in touch at all princess, I love it, it's like the perfect balance of clearly privileged but still honorable without being all "not like Other Nobles."

actually all the characters' personalities pop more in the show, like RJ never really gave his characters more personality than Stoic Man and Scheming Woman; and when he tried it was just a sort of weak, washed out personality. In hindsight I honestly don't know why I liked those books so much. I think some of it was because the world was so vast and the characters were so bland it was easy to insert your own thoughts into it.

the fake out with the Arches was so good! like it honestly caught me by surprise, thinking this was just another alteration the show made. I kind of thought Egwene was going to activate her dream magic and rescue Nynaeve, but I guess it did follow the book fairly closely after all, just with more drama.

speaking of dream magic, I like the way they seem to be playing Perrin's wolf-dream powers more as visions overlaying the real world instead of extended dream sequences, which also seems like it's easier from a production standpoint but also makes the wolf magic feel more grounded.

and speaking of Aes Sedai ceremonies, I appreciate the lack of gratuitous female nudity. In fact they seem to have upped the gratuitous male nudity quite a bit. The women and queers took over that world and made it their own and I love it

Just, the casual way that the showrunners decided that queer people exist, and also that people fuck without being weird and repressed about it is so refreshing.

speaking of weird repressed sexuality, the design for the Seanchan channeler whatsits is so much more creepy and so much less fetish-y than the books and I love it. (I do also wonder if from a cinematography pov it was decided it was too difficult to have people on leashes and get good camera angles)

Rand in the psych ward was a good touch, it was so nice to see him actually doing things instead of sitting around angsting, and being kind and caring and having a personality, even if there was an ulterior motive. Also having him meet Logain this early instead of waiting twelve books was an excellent choice because I spent those twelve books frothing at the mouth wondering when the two were going to meet; the setup with the scene in the cage and the actual payoff of them meeting for the first time in the books was such a letdown, this was so much more dramatic and fulfilling.

not having Logain at the White Tower is going to make the attack on the white Tower interesting, though. And Min also left. Maybe they'll wind up back there somehow? Because I did like that awkward little travel party. And it throws off my trans channeler fic that I may or may not actually have written down somewhere, but oh well.

I like show!Min a lot, she's a lot sharper and more bitter than book!Min, but she also has even more lesbian energy than RJ's Only Woman In The World Who Wears Pants (Gasp!) and I don't see her pairing well with Rand. But also Rand hasn't actually met any of his love interests, so I'm curious to see how the show decides to play it. Maybe they'll lean into the polycule aspect and have the girls get together with each other too? They do seem to be foreshadowing that (hello Alanna)

Wheel of Time Books: you know that Alanna...has two Warders... two men at her beck and call... if you know what I mean ;)... haha no of course they don't... unless ;) Wheel of Time Show: they fuck. they're fucking. they have bisexual fucking threesomes all the fucking time and they're so fucking horny in front of everyone and we fucking love it. And they bring her snacks.

I kind of wanted to see Mat beat up Galad, but maybe they'll work that in later.

[queenofmalkier]

Also at this point? I’m mad all over at people who write Min off as being nothing but a Rand tag-along.

Like. Yes, she has superglued herself to his side by the end of book 7 for the most part. BUT - and this is a big one! - she had a viewing that he would die without Moiraine. And Moiraine is dead.

So not only did she have to watch him be broken down and tortured, and is actively witnessing the fallout of that, she doesn’t think he has a chance and is terrified.

Does she have thoughts along the lines of ‘Damn he fine!’ YOU BETCHA! That’s a very normal, human response when you like somebody even if it’s the end of days. She’s also young and this is her first relationship, give a girl a break.

Regardless she’s doing what she can to support him in what she believes is a doomed endeavor. Because she’s seen what fighting him does firsthand - better to help and mitigate the damage than go against him.

Rand’s sent everybody he cares about away that he can. Every single person. He’s not even thinking about Tam anymore because it’s dangerous. Elayne he’s determined never to see again, same with Avi. Even Egwene to some extent. He’d send away Mat and Perrin forever if he could. He’d send the Maidens away if they’d stand for it so he settles for pretending he doesn’t care about them and keeps them around as a favor to them.

He’s isolating in a major way.

But Min isn’t just sitting there like a bump on a damn log.

1. She’s taken over reading after Fel got torn to bits. She’s not realized why exactly it’s important, but she’s the only person who even thought to read the books that got him killed. (Because why would the shadow kill him if he didn’t know something?)

2. She might have changed her appearance a little, but it’s on her terms. She’s still in her breeches and boots, they’re just more feminine, which very well could be her own preference - Min wasn’t exactly wealthy, and dressing as she did wasn’t safe unless she went the masculine route before. Now she has freedom to explore.

3. She befriended the Wise Ones and the Aiel, finally finding a group of people that doesn’t question her abilities or try and use them for their own gain. They just accept her.

4. She has spent enough time with Rand to know what he needs and, like any good partner, is trying to support him.

5. She’s honed her abilities with her daggers and remains armed at all times. Anybody around Rand can’t be defenseless. When they’re with Caraline & Co. she’s ready to protect him too. (When they try and blame Rand by focus on the negative things that are happening, she’s quick to cite ‘Balance’ and the positives.)

6. Staying by Rand’s side means she can advise him on possible viewings and what they mean - something she feels comfortable enough doing because he never asks for more than she tells him.

I guess I just don’t get why people dislike her so much. It’s probably a shipping thing, but she’s far from useless and reducing her to girl-on-Rand’s-arm has to be a willful refusal to look at her actual actions and instead focusing on her thoughts despite WOT being filled with unreliable narrators. We’re supposed to look beyond what she thinks to see what she does.

[papervo1d]

after three months, i have finally finished the shadow rising (a few days ago). what a beast of a book! my copy had 974 pages. a beast of a book. long post incoming!

and it's by far the best one of the series yet. it's easy for me, as a newcomer to the wheel of time, to say that i feel like the story is only just beginning, as it's a completed series of fourteen. but four books is a lot for any series, especially given each book's size, so it's not right to say the story has just begun, but more it feels very solidly wheel of time. i think a lot of the aiel history and revisiting the two rivers made this one feel quite fleshed out compared to the first three. instead of racing around to new places, we got to spend some more time in emond's field, the place it all began. we got to dive into the deep history of the aiel, who i had no real interest in beforehand, because of how little i knew about them.

i would say that perrin's storyline this book was unexpectedly my favourite one. i've never hated perrin, but he always has been my least favourite of the main lot. i think it's just he feels like he has a smaller personality than mat or nynaeve (my favs), but i've always liked his complex conflict with his wolf abilities. i really enjoyed seeing his rise into leadership this book, i feel like he actually ended up doing something compared to what he did in the dragon reborn. a nice development i noticed was how, when he first started leading the two rivers people against the trollocs, he went from only focusing on the people who died, to at the end focusing on the people who lived. making him into a leader felt like a good path for his character. i imagine perrin's story going forward will lead to some bigger conflict with slayer. when first introduced to luc i definitely suspected him, i thought he was a forsaken and didn't expect him to be slayer until it was revealed at the end. now raises the question of who slayer really is - who's luc and why does he look different in the wolf dream? well, i suppose i'll find out eventually.

i quite liked all the other characters in his storyline too: faile, loial, gaul, bain and chiad. faile i quite like actually, she frustrated me a bit throughout the third book, but i thought her stubbornness and general annoyingness began to settle down slowly after reaching the two rivers. at first she was irritating, but she seems to show genuine care for perrin, and i thought their wedding at the end was sweet but maybe a bit too early for that. gaul i never expected to like so much, he's such a ride or die bestie. loial is as always the best.

next: the aiel plot. i was definitely looking forward to this once it was revealed that this is where rand will be heading. and it delivered!! it was so interesting to finally learn of aiel culture after not knowing much about them. the aiel history section was super intense and at first i found it hard to understand, but it clicked eventually and those two chapters are by far the best of the book. it was nice to be able to read rand chapters again, and see how much he's changed from book one. he comes across so much more guarded and plots so much more.

egwene i feel like wasn't in this one too much. i kinda hoped we would see some more of her lessons with the wise ones, and felt like this was one plot that there was no time for (in this 1000 page book lol). and not much to say about mat either. i do like that it felt like he had rand's back, despite his fear of channeling. but the whole sequence of them two in rhuidean was intense, and now he has a cool weapon and prophecies from the fae foxes and snakes. but as always he remains a favourite and i always want to see more of him. and one character i loved was aviendha. i loved seeing her in the show and i loved having her around more in this one. she's a joy to read :)

the tanchico plot. again i was excited, as nynaeve is my joint fav and i do enjoy elayne a lot. but sadly we didn't see too much of them :( of all three main plots i'm curious to see what happens next here. where did moghedien go? what will happen with the panarch? what about the black sisters? again, i suppose i will find out!!

a special note goes to the nynaeve vs moghedien showdown. that was wonderful, seeing nynaeve unleash forsaken level power and beat a forsaken. but we didn't see where moghedien went - she'll be back, i'm sure of it. just like how we see lanfear time and time again.

finally, the smallest plot point: the tower business. oh my god. so much happened within so few chapters. this will only be bad news now that elaida is amyrlin. it's good to see siuan so determined to keep going. i'm excited to see how min, siuan and leane deal with this, what their next steps are. and what on earth is next for the white tower? where did all the blue sisters disappear to? are they gonna form some kind of movement against elaida? i'm so invested in this!

so overall: a wonderful book, definitely my favourite so far. i'm excited to start the fires of heaven, but i also definitely need a break to read something else. i have a few standalones that i'll be reading first, but i'm looking to return to the wheel of time in the new year :)

[butterflydm]

restructuring the wheel of time into ten books

So a little while ago, there was a poll about people's favored choice for how many books should have been in WoT -- I voted for 'ten' and this is, I guess, my argument for a ten book series.

Books 1-5, I don’t really have any notes on when it comes to structure. Every book is complete in and of itself. While books 2 & 3 do have something of a repetitive structure, I think that works better in a book series than in a tv series.

The only suggestions that I would have structurally would be minor things like “tweak Rand’s power levels in the early books to keep him more in line with what he does later” (aka what the show is doing, lol) and maybe not having Ishamael present during the Battle of Falme and having that purely against the Seanchan, so that we don’t have super similar climaxes for Rand two books in a row (Rand could get his wound in Tear instead). And those are the sorts of things that I think it might be likely that Jordan would have done if he’d known exactly how long the series would end up being -- ex. he clearly backed down on Rand’s power jump when he realized that the series would be going for longer than he’d originally planned.

One minor plot change that I would do is put Perrin feeling Rand tug at him as the epilogue of TFOH or thereabouts. Just a little hint of Perrin in there, showing that he'll have a bigger role in the next book.

Book 6, though... I have some thoughts there.

Lord of Chaos/A Crown of Swords: this is the first book where the beginning really takes some time getting off the ground -- there are several Salidar chapters that could have been combined. This is really the first place in the books where characters hang around doing nothing (we're told more than once in Elayne & Nynaeve's PoV that they're barely being taught anything and that being there feels pointless), waiting for it to be time to actually Do Some Plot (the big Healing of severing) and it's just the beginning of a bad trend.

The other structural change that I would suggest is not doing the weird feint with Mat's character where he starts off doing a "Rand's general" storyline and then creakily transitions over to Salidar instead. Since Mat isn't actually going to Illian, he doesn't need to be marching south. He could just still be in Cairhien/Caemlyn and have Rand take him to Salidar from there. As it is, we end up spending several chapters on a storyline that gets abruptly terminated part of the way through the book so that Mat can do a completely different storyline instead and that really pads out the pages unnecessarily (this was a really bad trend that happened with Mat's character in particular more than once in the books; his storylines would just stop in their tracks and get shifted to something else entirely and never go back to his original storyline; ex. we literally never find out why/what the murdered caravan of Tuatha'an had to do with anything, because Mat never bothers to tell Rand their message because he spends the entire rest of the book series doing completely unrelated things and only ever sees Rand again for a brief conversation that is dominated by everyone catering to his slaver wife -- we never get payoff for the vast majority of Mat's storylines, even the minor threads). It really does feel like Jordan started writing the book, then went "oh shit, Mat needs to meet & marry the DotNM" and just abruptly changed Mat's story to yeet him to Ebou Dar without actually rewriting the earlier bits in the book.

Outside of that, the main change I would suggest being made in these books is improving Min’s characterization and Min and Rand’s relationship by NOT having Min change herself for Rand. Let Rand fall in love with Min as she is, not the dolled-up version of Min that she invents for Rand’s benefit (there are other characterization tweaks I would recommend as well, but Min is kinda the biggest issue imo).

The main ‘story arc’ for Rand that's set up in LoC is ‘defeating Sammael’ and it should take place over the course of a single book, not two separate books. Parts of ACoS would be saved for the next book but the Illian climax should happen in the same book that the story starts. I would title this book “A Crown of Swords” so that the focus is on Rand’s story, not the Forsakens' (and part of the oddness here is definitely due to Jordan changing his mind about doing the Taim-Demandred combo, so he sets up something that ends up going nowhere).

Inciting incidents:

Egwene is summoned to Salidar leading to Rand sending Mat there as well

Min arrives in Caemlyn, leading to The Box Incident

Turning point:

After the Box incident, Perrin and Rand stage a fight so that Perrin can go find Masema

Egwene sends Elayne, Nynaeve, Mat & co to Ebou Dar to look for the Bowl of the Winds and they actually take advantage of Mat being ta’veren right away instead of waiting around for a month (all the delays in Mat's various storylines had a knock-on effect in delaying everyone else's storylines, imo -- the Slog happens because everyone is waiting on Mat, whether they know it or not)

Climax:

Rand defeats Sammael

The attack of the Seanchan on Ebou Dar begins

A Crown of Swords/The Path of Daggers/Winter’s Heart: The Path of Daggers only needs some of trimming imo. Once that trimming is done, I think Elayne’s section of the prologue of WH could slid into it fairly neatly as a bit of an ‘upbeat’ epilogue, which would be a contrast to the darkness of Rand’s ending in the previous book and his defeat here when he tries to repel the Seanchan from Ebou Dar.

Also have Mat interact with Tuon throughout this book, essentially like he did in WH (Mat's interactions with Tuon in WH make sense with his previous characterization; it's in CoT & KoD when Jordan had him completely reverse on his moral outlook on slavery so that he would be willing to make out with a slaver - genuinely, how Mat goes from sympathizing with slaves in WH to sympathizing with slavers in CoT remains one of the most baffling writing choices that I've ever run across; especially with how limp and one-sided it made everything about Mat & Tuon feel in those books for me, because Jordan drained all the potential interesting conflict out of the pairing so that he could focus on Mat navel-gazing about his self-inflicted prophecy woes, making him just Min 2.0. *sigh*). This book I would choose to be named “The Path of Daggers” out of the available options.

Inciting incidents:

Elayne & Nynaeve use the Bowl of the Winds as Ebou Dar is invaded by the Seanchan and Mat gets left behind during the escape

Perrin & co find Masema, etc.

Egwene uses the rule of law to take control of the Salidar Aes Sedai

Turning point:

Mat first meets Tuon -- maybe give Mat & Tylin’s first meeting to Mat & Tuon instead, where he accidentally greets her using the Old Tongue, thus sparking her interest (cut out Mat & Tylin’s ‘relationship’ entirely, it was zero percent needed and is needed even less if Tuon arrives in the first wave of the attack, as I'm suggesting here)

Rand learns about the invasion by the Seanchan and goes campaigning

Egwene & the Aes Sedai jump to Tar Valon and begin their siege (since they no longer need to kill time to let Mat's plotline happen)

Climax:

Rand fails to defeat the Seanchan & gets attacked in the Sun Palace but kills the attackers here instead of us needing the Far Madding detour (which just felt like a less emotionally-impactful version of The Box to me and Jordan giving in to his desire to write a travelogue)

Faile learns Masema is dealing with the Seanchan and kills him, cutting off that entire path of slog by not getting kidnapped (we really only need one kidnapped wife imo)

Mat escapes Ebou Dar, kidnapping Tuon along the way (there's our allotted Kidnapped Wife)

Egwene is captured by the White Tower Aes Sedai when the rebels block off the harbors to Tar Valon

Winter’s Heart/Crossroads of Twilight/Knife of Dreams: All three of these books would have greatly benefited from being massively cut down to a single volume. This one also has a touch of TGS in it, mostly because Egwene had a lot more story left after KoD than pretty much any other character except maybe Mat.

Specific items to change or cut:

Cut out Far Madding entirely (Rand killed the attackers in Cairhien). Since Tuon arrived with the initial Seanchan invasion fleet in Ebou Dar, Nynaeve can be honest with Rand about Mat being left behind but Rand can see (in his color swirl vision) that Mat is no longer in Ebou Dar and has already escaped, filling that plot hole (the list of contrivances to keep Rand from knowing what happened to Mat frustrated and annoyed me so much when I was reading books WH-KoD).

Have the love confessions and Rand sleeping with Elayne, but don’t do the bonding yet. Have Rand leave Min behind in Caemlyn when he takes Nynaeve off to do the cleansing, so she can (emotionally) bond with Elayne & Aviendha. Since Min was just at ground zero for a terrible attack that was focused on Rand (which should, to Rand, prove his fears about being a danger to the people he loves to be correct!), it really is so bizarre that he keeps backpacking her around to dangerous place (Far Madding) after dangerous place (the Cleansing) after dangerous place (parlay with the Seanchan) and mostly shows that Jordan a) just had no more plot beats for Min until she played pregnancy test for Tuon in the epilogue and b) primarily saw Min as Rand’s Hero Reward rather than a character in her own right. But the whole affair mostly just undermined Rand’s character journey for me (he's so isolated! ...except for his live-in girlfriend).

Don’t do the Shaido plotline at all (have the Shaido scatter back to the Waste post-Dumai’s Wells); instead this should be where Perrin starts his wolf boot camp, so that he actually has a more appropriate amount of time for training before the Last Battle (and his emotional storyline would be a conflict with Faile over her killing Masema). I guess you can do the Whitecloaks storyline here.

Have Mat be the one to make a treaty with the Seanchan, and have Semirhage order the ‘airfleet’ against the White Tower instead of Tuon doing it. Instead of Mat accidentally giving himself away for nothing, have the Mat-Tuon marriage as part of the deal to seal the treaty, since Mat has figured out that she believes that he needs to be her husband, per prophecy, so he uses that to actually get concessions out of her. Because we aren’t trying to convince the readers that Mat is the sort of person who is capable of falling in love with a slaver in the space of a single month, we don’t need to spend two whole books wandering the Altaran countryside doing random shit and instead can get to the politics of it all. Let Mat actually continue to be smart and empathetic in this section of the storyline, rather than lopping off those parts of him and turning him into a zombie bootlicker yes-man. You can still layer in elements of Mat seeing potential in Tuon to be more than just a slaver, just don't have him toss his entire brain & morals away in order to kiss her ass.

Out of the available titles here, I think “Knife of Dreams” is the best one.

Inciting incidents:

Egwene undermines Elaida from within the Tower

Perrin starts Wolf Boot Camp

Rand & Nynaeve cleanse saidin

Turning Point:

Rand faces off against Semirhage and captures her

Egwene finds out from Verin about the extent of the Black Ajah in the White Tower

Aviendha leaves to go to Rhuidean to become a WO

Mat finds out that sul'dam (and thus Tuon) can channel and actually uses it as a negotiation tactic against her, please let this man use his brain during literally any of his conversations with Tuon, I am begging you. The way he reacts in the books to finding out that Tuon is a sul'dam and then that Tuon can channel is SO FUCKING BIZARRE. He just Does Not Care about slavery at all in CoT & KoD and is all Me Me Me about all of the Tuon revelations. In the previous books, Mat claims to be selfish even while constantly doing heroic/selfless things, but in CoT & KoD, he really does just come across as a genuine selfish bastard, someone who only thinks about himself and who doesn't give a shit about anyone else.

Climax:

Tuon and Mat agree on the terms of their marriage alliance and Say The Words

Elayne defeats her fellow claimants to the throne; maybe Min helps root out that Darkfriend captain in her guards, which would lend weight to her being able to do the same later for Tuon and also make it so that Min is at least as helpful to Team Light as she was to the Seanchan

The Seanchan (sent by Semirhage before she went to face Rand) attack the White Tower.

The Gathering Storm/Towers of Midnight: ToM has never made any sense as a title, so I would call this combined book “The Gathering Storm”. This section is more about putting things in a somewhat different order than they happened in the books, with a few tweaks.

Inciting Incidents:

Egwene defeats the Seanchan at the White Tower

Semirhage is freed by Elza and captures Rand, and (stealing @markantonys's excellent suggestion) Nynaeve is the one targeted when Semirhage forces Rand to her will, making Rand push Nynaeve away 'for her protection'

Rand and Egwene have a tense encounter that makes her doubt his sanity.

Turning point:

After taking the test to become full Aes Sedai, Nynaeve gets Lan's bond from Myrelle and then, since Myrelle was literally right outside the Black Tower at the time, Nynaeve and Logain deal with the Black Tower

Egwene deals with the assassins in the Tower (Gawyn subplot)

Perrin deals with the dreamspike and kills Slayer | Egwene deals with Mesaana

Aviendha returns from Rhuidean and reunites with Elayne & Min

Climax:

Rand attacks his father, leading to the moment on Dragonmount

post-epiphany, Rand actually goes to check in on his friends and loved ones, thus making his epiphany have an impact on the storyline -- he Travels to where Mat is and is the one who helps Mat get from Point A (Altara) to Point B (Caemlyn) and letting them actually have a real reunion, delivering Aludra to Elayne, where she is ready to make weapons. In Caemlyn, he talks to Elayne, Aviendha, & Min, leading into the bonding moment.

Mat saves Moiraine from the Tower of Ghenjei.

(epilogue) Tuon arrives back in Ebou Dar and takes control of the Seanchan forces, letting everyone know that there is now a treaty with the Westlands. Her going back with a treaty already tentatively in place would actually make the triumphant tone that the books try to take her with her return make a lot more sense than... readers apparently supposed to be happy??? that one slaver is taking over from another slaver, even though Tuon is just as willing to do awful shit to our protagonists as Suroth was, so it feels like a distinction without a difference to me. Technically, is Tuon marginally better than Suroth? Eh, maybe, but not by much.

A Memory of Light: Most of my changes here either follow from earlier ones (we already have a treaty with the Seanchan, so Mat can just go to Merrilor to start General’ing right away), but apart from that:

Let the Emond’s Field Five (plus Elayne) have a group reunion! (easier to do in this version where Mat's storyline isn't all about sucking up to Tuon, I admit)

Let Perrin and Mat be at Rand’s funeral! (genuinely so bizarre that Sanderson didn't do a one-sentence fix of this tbh; that would have been the easiest thing in the world to fix. One sentence is all you would have needed.)

Let Moiraine be the person who realizes that Rand is still alive, not Cadsuane.

The battle itself could have been cut down somewhat in order to leave more room for character interactions (we probably don't need three separate sword duels for Demandred; kinda excessive). This is a goodbye to people some of us spent over a decade loving; we should be given proper goodbyes to them.

I also feel like there's no need to have everyone and their brother know that Rand is in a relationship with three women? And it felt pointless to have people know that Rand is the father of Elayne's kids too. Have Rand tell his dad (and then have Tam actually act like he has that knowledge during his scenes with Elayne; it is genuinely bizarre how formal Tam and Elayne's interactions were in AMoL; she knows that he's Rand's dad! That's the grandfather of her kids!) but there's no need for a continent-wide memo about Rand's love life. I know this was likely all because of the epilogue where the whole world knows about ~the three~ grieving widows but this is all about a theoretical world of only ten books total, so some tweaking of the epilogue is happening regardless.

Inciting incidents:

Moiraine arrives (with Mat) to help heal the rift between Egwene and Rand

Darkfriends attack Caemlyn through the Ways

Climax:

Rand vs The Dark One

Everyone else vs the Shadow’s forces

So, that would leave us with ten books total (plus the New Spring prequel):

The Eye of the World: the journey begins

The Great Hunt: more important plot elements are introduced, like the Seanchan; Rand begins to learn leadership

The Dragon Reborn: Rand accepts being the Dragon Reborn & takes on a full-time leadership role; Mat now has his luck & Perrin has met Faile

The Shadow Rising: Perrin takes on a leadership role when he leads the defense of the Two Rivers

The Fires of Heaven: Mat takes on a leadership role during the Battle of Cairhien, creating the Band of the Red Hand

A Crown of Swords: Egwene takes on a leadership role by becoming Amyrlin Seat of the rebel Aes Sedai

The Path of Daggers: Elayne takes on a leadership role by putting in her claim to become Queen of Andor

Knife of Dreams: Rand & Nynaeve reverse the Dark One’s counterstroke and then Rand tries and fails to make an alliance with the Seanchan (fake!Tuon); Perrin goes to wolf boot camp; Mat makes a treaty with the Seanchan via marriage alliance to the DotNM; Elayne gets all ten Houses she needs to secure the throne; Egwene has all-but won over the White Tower as well.

The Gathering Storm: we all prepare for the Last Battle; Rand has his epiphany, in whatever form it takes; Mat saves Moiraine; Perrin defeats Slayer; Egwene and Elayne prepare their respective areas for TLB.

A Memory of Light: the journey ends (for this age)

I feel like this gives us a more consistent build-up to the ending, with each piece building upon the ones before, and not taking an excessive amount of time with subplots in the endgame. Each character also has a more consistent progression as well.

Rand

tEotW: worries about being a male channeler

TGH: told he is the Dragon Reborn but assumes the White Tower wants to use him as a false Dragon

TDR: goes on a journey to prove whether or not he’s TDR and proves that he is; taking control of Tear

TSR: becomes the Car’a’carn

TFoH: takes control of Cairhien

ACoS: takes control of Illian

TPoD: has his first major failure when he is unable to repel the Seanchan from Ebou Dar

KoD: succeeds in cleansing saidin but fails to make peace with the Seanchan

TGS: has rock-bottom moment and then his epiphany; he learns he doesn’t have to do it All On His Own

AMoL: re-seals TDO

Egwene

tEotW: sets off an adventure

TGH: experiences great trauma at the hands of the Seanchan

TDR: Black Ajah Hunter

TSR: Goes to the Aiel Waste to begin her training

TFoH: One of her mentors (Moiraine) dies

ACoS: is called to take on a leadership position

TPoD: takes control of the rebel Aes Sedai

KoD: besieges Tar Valon and is captured

TGS: become Amrylin of a united White Tower

AMoL: leads in the Last Battle and becomes an inspirational figure

Perrin

tEotW: discovers that he’s a wolfbrother

TGH: is first placed in a leadership position when Rand disappears

TDR: meets Faile

TSR: defends the Two Rivers (Slayer introduced)

TFoH: feels the tug of ta’veren and leaves the Two Rivers again

ACoS: saves Rand

TPoD: finds Masema; Faile kills Masema

KoD: Wolf Boot Camp

TGS: deals with Slayer in the Wolf Dream

AMoL: leads the wolves at the Last Battle (instead of it being Elyas)

Nynaeve

tEotW: sets out to protect the four kiddos

TGH: adopts Elayne as a fifth kiddo

TDR: Black Ajah Hunter

TSR: Tanchico & the SAD bracelets; Egeanin

TFoH: defeating Rahvin & capturing Moghedien

ACoS: Salidar & Ebou Dar

TPoD: using the Bowl of the Winds

KoD: cleansing saidin

TGS: the Black Tower plotline

AMoL: with Rand at the climax of TLB; being the Ultimate Protector

Mat

tEotW: finds the dagger

TGH: blows the Horn of Valere

TDR: discovers his luck

TSR: Rhuidean & prophecy

TFoH: the Battle of Cairhien & the Band of the Red Hand

ACoS: Salidar & Seanchan invasion in Ebou Dar

TPoD: meets & kidnaps the Daughter of the Nine Moons

KoD: forms a marriage alliance with the Daughter of the Nine Moons

TGS: saving Moiraine

AMoL: General of the forces of Light at the Last Battle

Elayne

tEotW: meets Rand, heads off to Tar Valon

TGH: gets a found family in Egwene, Nynaeve, & Min

TDR: Black Ajah Hunter (meets Aviendha)

TSR: Tanchico & the SAD bracelets; Egeanin

TFoH: bonding Birgitte; Circus storyline

ACoS: Salidar & Ebou Dar

TPoD: using the Bowl of the Winds & heading to Andor

KoD: becoming Queen (plot climax)

TGS: bonds Rand (emotional climax)

AMoL: powerful leader during the Last Battle

[markantonys]

okay quick 2x04 thoughts before i go off to make some gifs!

moiraine in cairhien was so fun!! loved getting a peek at her childhood and family

i gasped when it was revealed that moiraine (and presumably siuan) deliberately planted logain in cairhien to lure rand, even though i should've seen it coming! i should've known moiraine's always playing 4D chess!

WE STAN ANVAERE, absolute queen shit. she out-moiraine'd moiraine! also, as a younger sister who spent my whole childhood craving my older sister's approval, Felt

i'll admit i'm not jazzed about lan's storyline this episode. it was a little interesting and i liked getting a look at what alanna is like "outside of work", and she and maksim and ihvon continue to be top-tier secondary characters, but it felt like too much time and i wish some of this screentime had gone to mat or egwene instead. though i'm guessing we'll be getting much less of lan and more of others (especially egwene, for obvious reasons) next week!

but i AM intrigued by the direction they're going with lan's bond. everyone had speculated alanna's absorbing myrelle, but given that lan's getting on pretty well with them all and alanna seems to be leaving the decision in his hands and even suggests he could soon bond with nynaeve, i really do wonder if they might just have lan's bond go straight to nynaeve post-moiraine's-"death" and keep alanna & rand as the only non-consensual bonding in the show. it's a bit of a repetitive plot beat and i don't think anything would break if lan's version of it was skipped.

egwene referencing rand to elayne but without mentioning his name or any distinguishing info about him!!!!! this definitely gives me hope for a cute little scene of rand and elayne encountering each other in falme without realizing they have mutual friends.

i was SO confident that blonde warder trainee in the trailer was gawyn, but it turns out he was just a random background guy! i have been catfished! but maaaaaaybe it really was him but he just wasn't credited because he's not being officially introduced until a later episode? please???

LEANE'S OUTFIT!!! and ooooh great setup for the falme trip AND the coup next season (i'm sure some people will be more convinced by liandrin/elaida merger after this scene, but i truly don't think that'll happen bc a) it wouldn't work storywise for a number of reasons, b) if they were merging them they would've named the character elaida instead of liandrin)

i LOVED perrin's scenes with elyas!!! and this is coming from someone who was always bored to tears by perrin povs in the books! elyas delivering exposition like it was the most obvious thing in the world and perrin's an idiot for not knowing was a GREAT vibe haha and we have confirmation that perrin's visions aren't a visual representation of his smelling abilities, but rather sendings from the wolves! and we got hopper!!!!!

liandrin's convo with nynaeve was SO GOOD. i was going "awww this is so sweet, i love this" "oh wait, betrayal incoming, shit" djkjfg they did a great job of making it believable that nynaeve (and the audience) would trust liandrin's word about going to falme. also, the show's focus on the tragedy of aes sedai longevitiy is excellent, 10/10

elayne my beloved!!!!! "yes i'm following you obviously" i love her your honor!!!! and the earlier moment where she admits being curious about what it's like not to have your whole life mapped out, but then says she wouldn't trade places with egwene. baby! can't wait to get to her queen arc eventually!

FASCINATED by the reveal that min is working with liandrin because liandrin had promised to take her powers away from her. what an amazing story choice!!! it lends min some much-needed narrative meat, it makes SO much sense that she would find uncontrollable foresight to be a burden and a curse, and it sets up a potential arc of her learning more about/coming to terms with her powers. in the books she never has many thoughts on what it's like to have these powers, so i LOVE that the show is going to explore that more.

overall i'm quite surprised by the relative lack of mat in the season so far! i'd assumed they'd want a lot of time with him early since he was out of the final 2 eps of s1. but i'm sure he'll get a more focal episode later! on that note, i'm a bit worried because imdb doesn't have min in episode 5, and they do have mat, but it could just be because donal is a regular so gets billed for every episode even if he doesn't appear. because i'm not sure it'd make sense for mat to appear but not min next episode? but it's possible, and it's also possible that min will appear and imdb isn't accurate. still, i'm bracing myself for no mat storyline next week.

at least we got confirmation on the where & why of their trip: cairhien because ishamael wants to get mat and rand back together!! highly relatable of him, i must say

i don't even know what to say about the rand & lanfear stuff, it was SO good i'm shaking!!!!! but poor rand has probably been put off bondage forever now which is absolutely tragic djkfjgh

update to add: i can't believe moiraine walked in on rand mid-sex (with a forsaken) i hope they have the world's awkwardest conversation about it once they've stopped fleeing for their lives. there is a spectrum and This & mean girls "do you need anything? snacks? a condom?" are on opposite ends of it

[shinylitwick94]

WoT S2 thoughts from a rather casual book reader:

SPOILERS ABOUND

- Overall massive, MASSIVE, improvement over S1 on most fronts;

- The introduction of Lanfear especially really helps give the show an edge it was missing and I love that we are getting the other Forsaken too;

- We get a lot more on the world and the magic and how it works and the EF5 are set to take off on their respective journeys;

- It just looks better too;

- There are definitely some decisions that are controversial with book readers, but for the most part I think they are justified in the logic of the characters as they are in the show, which by this point has diverged quite significantly from the books anyway;

On the finale specifically:

Liked:

- Forsaken office drama remains spicy and the best, loved the Ishy and Lanfear scenes;

- Moghedien!!!!! So happy we get to introduce unhinged spider lady, and in the best way too, very much looking forward to what they do with her in S3;

- Mat with spear-dagger thing - it was cool! And this is coming from someone who isn't really a Mat fan. Although personally I felt the Heroes of the Horn themselves were a little bit clunky;

- Egwene and Renna - in terms of buildup-delivery for the EF5 by far the one that worked best;

-Whitecloaks - i did like how blatantly they leaned into the Crusader vibes here, and I like how they did the thing with Perrin as well;

Not super happy with:

- Ishy fight - I do agree with the criticism that we needed more of Rand in this moment and we did not get it (although unlike many I don't think this makes it WAAH WAAAH THE WORST SHOW EVER) - Rand got shafted here and at this stage this is a real problem;

- Ishy fight part deux - it also just looks kind of clunky? The way Rand walks up and stabs him is weirdly anticlimactic, they could still have done that with more oomph

- Nyneave & Elayne - also in the anticlimactic category - felt like we got a whole lot of buildup for these two this season and in the end they did...not much, really, especially Nyneave who kind of just stood and stared all episode

So yeah other than those weirdly anticlimactic last five minutes I thought it was pretty good. Very much looking forward to S3.

[xylodemon]

i've been skimming through The Great Hunt as i plot out the next chapter of my fic and i ended up having some Random Thoughts about the Show

(book spoilers under the cut)

what got me thinking was the Dragon Banner scene in TGH, particularly Mat's less-than-stellar reaction to finding out Rand can channel. it's a hard scene to read - even on rereads, knowing that Mat stops Being Like That fairly quickly - but it does help set up the fact that (nearly) everyone is going to be at least a little afraid of Rand moving forward.

i am, however, wondering if the show will skip all that, thinking that Mat staying behind at the Waygate is enough to put the necessary strain on their relationship. although... Rand defended Mat pretty vehemently in 1x07. it'll be interesting to see if Rand really isn't upset about it, or if he just snapped at Egwene in a "no one talks shit about my boyfriend bestie but me" kind of way.

while i was writing the last chapter of my fic, i rewatched the scene where Min tells Rand about Tam finding him in the snow, which got me thinking about them. i love Rand's screwy love-life, but in the books, Rand/Min is the least compelling of the relationships to me, mainly bc she spends so much of LOC/COS trying to make her viewing happen, regardless of what he wants (or says he wants). Show!Min's "ugh, you" reaction to him walking into the tavern makes me hope wonder if the show is going to rework their dynamic a bit.

Speaking of relationships, the show leaning into Moiraine/Siuan so hard (love it) has me curious re: what it plans to do with Siuan/Gareth and Moiraine/Thom. i have zero investment in either of those relationships, but Thom and Moiraine's feelings for each other are tied up with how the Tower of Ghenjei stuff plays out.

(not me maundering about stuff that'll be in, like, Season 10 or 11 when we're still waiting for Season 2.

back to Season 2: in the promo and the stills, Rand sure does seem to be channeling a lot. i wonder if he's going to skip the whole I'LL NEVER DO IT AGAIN I PROMISE stuff. likely, he starts off like that in 2x01/2x02 but gets "talked" out of it by "Selene." Rand traveling with her alone instead of with Loial and Hurin (RIP) has the potential to do truly bonkers things to their dynamic.

back to Mat (sorry i'm genuinely all over the place today): there's a scene in the promo that looks like he's being Healed, which suggests he's at Tar Valon. i'm wondering how he gets out. i understand that they're collapsing some plotlines from TGH and TDR, which would probably put Mat in the Tower while Egwene/Elayne/Nynaeve are at Falme. that means they won't be there to bust him out with Siuan's Black Ajah hunting letter.

Unraveling the Pattern on YT did a promo breakdown that's convinced me the Rand/Siuan meeting goes down in Cairhien. i'm wondering now if Siuan brings Mat with her. that would get him to Rand in time to go to Falme and blow the Horn.

Sadly, this could end up costing me two of my absolute favorite Mat sequences: his quarterstaff face-off with Gawyn and Galad, and the whole bit where he gambles his way out of Tar Valon.

(he still better answer the door naked when Rand saves him from the Darkhounds. that is peak comedy. PEAK.)

i'm probably not saying anything anyone hasn't already figured out here, but i'm thinking, since TGH and TDR are getting meshed, that Rand goes straight from Falme to the Aiel Waste. i've seen some speculation that Aviendha is the Aiel Perrin rescues from the cage, thus explaining why she's with him at Falme, but she wouldn't be the only Aiel around. i'm betting the show is altering the People of the Dragon prophecy so that it's about Falme (the Car'a'carn appearing in the sky???) rather than the Stone. Maybe Rand takes the Aiel with him when he goes to Tear and picks up his plot coupon Callandor.

okay, that's it. i swear.

[onaperduamedee]

Notes on The Dragon Reborn

I went almost straight from The Great Hunt, but never edited my notes. As I am jumping in The Shadows Rising immediately after, I felt the need to clean up my impressions if only to come back to them later.

Full spoilers for The Dragon Reborn under the cut :

Also Perrin arguing with Moiraine that Rand knows what he is doing the day after Rand accidentally caused an earthquake that hurt people and destroyed buildings.

Moiraine: states facts about Rand being both dangerous and extremely vulnerable, is straightforward about her being only here to keep him alive for the last battle

Perrin: this is your fault, you meddlesome hussy, what are you trying to do with him, stop lying, stop manipulating, just be niceee

Me: ????

Regarding this tension between Moiraine and the boys, I wish I understood better the sexist kool-aid the three boys drank, because otherwise I like their POVs and arcs, but every time they so much think about Moiraine or Aes sedai it devolves into resentful post-feminist paranoia. However, their behavior is consistent with the defiance some male students had toward female teachers in High School: they would aggressively challenge their authority, but never with male teachers, even with the ones who were notoriously lax. So it's something RJ really nailed here, even if it can be exhausting to read.

The running gag of Nynaeve having to get angry to heal people or channel is comical, but could have major unwanted implications in the show.

The EF5 really are sharing a single wandering brain cell with Elayne. They are impulsive and reckless to the point of angering Verin, of all people. I do feel this is a very strong argument in favour of Nynaeve and Egwene being ta'veren too: they have such a talent for pandemonium, all of them. The trail of chaos that Rand was leaving behind wasn't that different from Mat, Nynaeve and Egwene's path, although on a different scale.

Siuan… I swear her mind is a kink at this point: she's so sharp and commanding. I am sorry Nynaeve and Egwene, you must be straight, because I would have been on my knees in the gayest sense during the scene where Siuan recruited them against the Black Ajah. I have never been more attracted to a fictional character as I am with SIuan in those scenes.

I do understand her reasoning when it comes to hunting the Black Ajahs (and it reinforces the parallel with young Moiraine and Siuan in New Spring), but Egwene is too damn young to be dragged into this. Also, it makes me a little disappointed we're never going to see them really study as Accepted.

Absolutely obsessed with Perrin prattling in front of Faile and an innkeeper and then cursing Moiraine for not telling him enough. Amazing.

I adore her, by the way

Moiraine: is aware of the general public perception of Aes Sedai, gets repeatedly cursed at by Perrin for not being trustworthy, has Lan not trusting her anymore because of the bond

Also Moiraine: doesn't lift a finger to appear less suspicious, cryptic or uncaring

Perrin walking in on Moiraine half-naked and then having a little bit of a case of MILF panic was weird, but still not as disturbing as the entire contingent of Aes Sedai leering over Rand and the boys in early TGH.

I am at a point where I love Nynaeve so much more than Lan, to say nothing of interest. I hope it gets better because he is inextricable from my two favourite characters. And I do wish Nynaeve wasn't taking love advice from two sixteen-year-old ta'veren-struck lovebirds.

Egwene snapping at Nynaeve about her manipulating as well as Moiraine and Elayne slapping her, while Elayne has spent months with someone as blunt as Nynaeve… After New Spring and TEotW, I remember complaining about Jordan writing women as petty in a way that feels a tad sexist. With women so far, disagreement devolves too often into cattiness. Watsonian hat on, I absolutely see why this scene happens (Egwene’s trauma that gets triggered by Nynaeve’s authority, Elayne who’s been dealing with Nyn and Egwene for weeks, the Forsaken’s influence), but with a Doylist hat on, it’s merely another instance of the books being Like That™ about gender.

It's implied Moiraine did some pretty impressive sleuthing this book and it's so frustrating that we only get the aftermath. How did she know Sammael was in Illian incognito, about Be'lal in Tear? Why was Lan so afraid for her, since she wasn't going to kill Sammael anyway? Why did she have to go alone? TELL ME

The Wild Hunt after Perrin and Moiraine’s group getting balefired was such a striking scene. I hope the show keeps that scene.

Am intrigued by the geographic progress of the characters. With the Perrin and Moiraine group, it's straight-forward enough, but with Mat, Thom, Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne, there is a lot of going somewhere to get information to go somewhere else and yeah, although it feels realistic, it's a tad confounding. Not necessarily bad, but striking enough that I wonder if it's supposed to call back to a circular progression. 

Absolutely in love with the circularity of the girls, more specifically Nynaeve, being convinced they can rely on their strength in the One Power to defeat their enemies and then being obliterated the moment they face Black Ajahs because yeah, Verin was right, there's a reason they cannot use their power like that. No matter how strong, they shouldn't want to hurt people this way and Darkfriends, particularly the Black Ajahs, will always play dirty.

Jabs at Perrin and the girls aside, I believe this may be an underlying theme of the book: the belief that honesty equals knowledge, and recognition of lack of knowledge equals dishonesty. It's particularly blatant in Perrin and Moiraine's dynamic, where Moiraine keeps repeating she doesn't know, doesn't understand yet, and Perrin cannot see it as anything but duplicity, while his straightforwardness must mean he knows better. And conversely, there is a reason why the moment Nynaeve offers a magistral demonstration of knowledge - her Wisdom trade, mind you - it's immediately followed by a comparison to Aes Sedai and accusations of hypocrisy by Egwene.

It's a nice exploration of growing up too, because as I entered adulthood I expected older people to know all the answers and just give them to me. And here, Moiraine, Siuan, Thom, Verin… All of them are trapped in circumstances of their own, hindered by their lack of knowledge. The EF5 get angry at them, even when they find themselves in circumstances they can't control and flail through inexperience. Growing up and taking responsibility for your place in the world means understanding there is no universal answer and the work is never done: power, knowledge, luck - they aren't a panacea, especially when fighting against the end of the world. If you've ever felt utterly hopeless before events beyond your control - pandemic, war, climate crisis, late-stage capitalism, rise is fascism and white supremacy - it's a familiar sentiment.

From the fandom's perception of the Forsaken, I was skeptical about the Forsaken being goofy because the concept is really cool in theory. The fandom was absolutely right and the Forsaken are goofy in the best of ways. They remind me of Grand Guignol theatre, which was a famous French theatre in the first half of the XX c. specializing in gory, over-the-top and dark plays. It has become a term to refer to work of fiction that's melodramatic and horrific, often verging on ridiculous. I get a kick out of such camp characters.

By the light, the payoff for Egwene's multiple ventures in the dream world was extremely satisfying. I am taking back all my reservations about Tel'aran'rhiod. I still could do with fewer dream sequences overall.

On that, Perrin's hunt for Faile in Tel'aran'rhiod felt redundant, even if the narrative lays the groundwork. And I am not fond of Perrin, and Mat, and Lan being deadset on rescuing the women.

I say that and then Lan yet again does not do much to save Moiraine from being obliterated in battle and Moiraine does the saving when it comes to Rand. So there's that.

And, oh, Faile? Love at first sight on my end. I want her to be played by Erin Wu.

Everything in Tear filled me with Joy and not only because everyone was reminded of Siuan. Jordan is really good with worldbuilding. The Wisdom betraying the girls, the Aiel, the Black Ajahs, the Forsaken trying to trap Moiraine, Mat running around with hunters and gleemen... It's too much, but in the most enjoyable manner, like carnival or a Doctor Who finale. Parts of it are delicious slices of cloak and dagger, others pure esoteric gothic-ish nightmare.

If I had a nickel every time Moiraine shields Rand from a Forsaken and then gets obliterated before the final battle while Nynaeve and Egwene are running around and Mat is hiding, I would have two nickels, which isn’t much but it’s funny it happened twice.

So far, this book is the one I enjoyed the most. The pacing is miles better than the first two. The treatment of the different plots is much more satisfying and equal, which goes a long way to improve the rhythm. Rand is almost completely absent from this book, which is an interesting choice given what he goes through, but more on that in another post because it is a very deliberate shift in POV.

Although I still maintain the middle part is meandering, it's thoroughly jolly meandering, like the kind of adventure you could get in Alexandre Dumas' serialized novels. There is so much tension between the characters, but it's mostly compelling tension for now, coming from people being flawed and foolish and human. The final battle is again an explosion of chaos and barely adaptable to the screen as it is, but SO BLOODY ENJOYABLE. At moments the writing veers into straight-up Symbolism and Surrealism, particularly with the emphasis on dreams, and it's often messy but the result is strangely compelling. Like, if the writing stays on this level and above for the whole series, I will be more than content.

[amemoryofwot]

TDR wrap up under cut! (In no particular order)

Not to be a Lan hater on main again but man if anyone is to be accused of being overwritten show screen time vs book screen time it’s him. Rand’s Fal Dara sword training aside, in TGH he just like fights with Moiraine for two pages, kills a Draghkar, then yells at Perrin a bit in TDR and refuses again when Moiraine tries to send him away pre-Darkhound showdown. Once again hoping Alanna’s S2 was enough of his LoC storyline and he can just go straight to Nynaeve. I guess we’re also missing him giving his ring to Nynaeve which like I’m sure will be S3 now that they’re back in the same place.

Speaking of Nynaeve somebody threw out it seems like we’re getting her unsure FoH self in S2 which I think is fair. She’s written as much more confident and competent between TGH/TDR than S2, but I think that’s due to her experiencing that moment of losing control of a situation earlier. In the books it’s post-Birgitte/Moggy showdown that she becomes so anxious and fearful but in the show her trauma in the circle at the end of S1 is that catalyst. So it will be interesting to see how she reacts to that same book scene in show (season …4? lol)

I am Team Not Going Back To The Tower in S3 but there’s such lovely character moments between Siuan and the kids I will be disappointed to miss. I’m liking Caemlyn as a centre point as well so perhaps there’s some way to mash these together? Siuan attempting to soothe Morgase over Elayne going missing? Mat being there somehow? Mats luck streak happening in Caemlyn instead of Tar Valon? Again, I do not envy the writers having to rework this series, there are SO many moving parts to consider.

Mats luck is one outstanding TDR item to address in S3 (please I need it) as well as Dreaming. Like we do really need the ter’angreal ring. I suppose we could find it in Falme with Turak’s curiosities, or even in Tanchico. Nynaeve seems to share a bit of Elayne’s ability to read ter’angreal so maybe they won’t even need someone to give it to them, if they find it they can figure out what it does while Egwene is a natural Dreamer.

There is such a HUGE personality shift in Rand between TGH and TDR, I think all he went through in S2 is really going to crash down on him and reflect that transition on screen rather than inferred between books.

I do genuinely find these books and RJ’s writing quite funny at times and I hope the writing can lean into that more. Like sorry GoT has ruined everything and we need to be Serious and Dark to be considered good now but WoT is my silly little series with my silly little guys getting into situations and there can be room for that too.