#mainly i just don’t speculate much abt what team rwby does because their role seems self-evident to me

[bestworstcase]

So, I recently had a discussion with a friend regarding your angle that Salem respects humans/Faunus, convinced Summer to get onboard with her plan and has the explicit goal of taking out the gods to save Remnant.

Conceptually I don't strictly mind any of this, its certainly not impossible for reasons you've outlined and it'd be suitably subversive of CRWBY to take the woman scorned/heretics villain and have her not be about that but some way bigger issue.

However, I run into a bit of a hurdle with embracing the concepts because it always hits what I deem to be some narrative and structural hurdles. Not one's that "Can't" be overcome, but that I am unsure I have seen be covered in outlines and theories.

My main concerns tie into a few angles that I'll try to break up for clarity:

Focus A big concern for me with the current theory is that it feels like it shifts the focus of the story away from the main characters.

You know how people treated Ironwood or Adam, or Ozpin & Qrow like they were the main characters and RWBY were or should be just supporting characters in their narrative?

While I don't think this is intentional on your part, it does beg the question of how this would be avoided.

Shaggy Dog Story Tied into the above is the potential for it to make the main characters journey feel a bit like a Shaggy Dog story. IE, a story where a lot of bad stuff happens for no reasn and they'd be better off having stayed home.

Again, I don't think this is intentional.

But, if Salem has a plan to take down the gods, if this plan is good and workable and would succeed... Haven't they made everything worse by fighting her and dragging it out?

Agency & of not and Salem is happy about them rallying the world behind them because then she can do this alone, we go back to the Focus issue.

Salem seems to become the main character and the story feels less about RWBY and more about them being caught up in Salem's narrative.

Consistency Meanwhile from Salem's angle, it does beg some questions about her thought processes. I can accept the idea she is varying shades of paranoid ad not used to being trusted...

But at the same time she has an inner circle she trusts a fair bit and is willing to reach out and align with large organizations like the White Fang, or try to cut deals with Atlas. Plus she might legit have Summer on her side.

So the idea I've seen proposed that she feels compelled to go to war, that she cannot envision another way. When most of the world doesn't know or care about the gods, when she has humans & Faunus on her side already who could speak for her.

Simply put it feels inconsistent to say that Salem is pathologically incapable of reaching out to others. She certainly struggles with communicating, but she can do so and can get people on her side.

Satisfaction This one is a bit more vague, but the general point is I am unsure what a satisfying conclusion with the seemingly proposed ideas looks like.

If Salem is right, then RWBY and co are to one degree or another supporting characters, whose actions had little impact. Or their narrative significance is in basically clarifying that Salem is correct and should be worked with. Or perhaps serving as her nominal therapists/communication advisors.

I swear I am not trying to be reductive, I am just basing this on conversations I've had and posts I've seen.

But yeah, basically I am wondering how you envision things going down that ensures RWBY remains the focal characters and that their journey and decisions have real meaning. While keeping the nuanced Salem and ensuring she doesn't come across as inconsistent. I am sure it can be done, and have tinkered with some myself, but most of them don't seem to in the direction I've seen suggested by others.

rubs hands. all good questions

#1: focus

i will say i do think the story of rwby is foundationally about ozlem—in the sense that the plot of the story revolves around this ancient and deeply personal conflict between them that is tearing the world apart and the narrative goal is their reconciliation, because you can’t have true peace until These Two immortal fucks stop fighting—and that team rwby’s the main characters because they’re the ones whom the narrative has, in essence, asked to put the broken pieces of this fairytale back together the right way.

as ruby herself says, remnant isn’t like a fairytale but that’s why they’re here, to make it better. on a character level that’s a statement about how ruby sees the world, her youthful optimism mingled with sadness, but on the thematic level it’s a very. literal description of what the story’s about. 

points at oz. look at where he started, look at where he is now. this man is under a curse designed to make it impossible for him to change and at the top of the show he has not fundamentally changed in any sense except gradual decay for, literally thousands of years. right. and then he admits ruby into his monster hunting school two years early because she has special magic eyes and he’s in need of a new chosen one since her mother disappeared, and then salem sends cinder to maul him, and—oops!—his “simple soul” who was never supposed to become anything more than another symbolic guardian is the one actually. like. making all the decisions.

once he gets oscar to mistral his “authority” over the gang lasts for exactly as long as ruby trusts him, which is [checks notes] One Month and Two Weeks. and then she explodes his whole situation by asking jinn what he’s hiding, which incites his long period of self-reflection while oscar becomes more oscar followed by the atonement arc in v8 and now he’s in vacuo fighting against this curse tooth and nail. 

now ruby did not Set Out to wrench ozma free of his divinely-enforced rut, she just did the protagonist thing of seeing a problem (bad guys attacked her school, and they’re planning to attack the other schools too!) and trying to fix it (she won’t let anyone else die!). but directly because of her actions, oz undergoes this seismic character development precipitating his part in the Ozlem Reconciliation.

and ruby is also indirectly the cause of the (subtler but just as necessary) character development salem has undergone since her proper introduction in v4 because all of that is constructed on the foundation of cinder’s near-death atop beacon tower.

so v1-8 are—in this very high level, bird’s eye view of the narrative—about ruby being more or less the butterfly who flaps her wings, by just Being There and responding to the events unfolding around her as best she can, having these cascading impacts on the world and on ozlem. thats step one. 

step two is the ever after, where all of team rwby but ruby in particular start having to confront. The Ideology. of ozma’s mandate which they’ve not yet thought about because they’re focused on the more immediately urgent problems of Not Dying and Not Letting Innocent People Die. so they need to get a little time to stop and breathe and feel the weight of “atlas is gone and salem has two of the four relics and what are we going to do” before they meet the demiurge who tells them, very gently, that the god of light is wrong and that they can’t solve this conflict with more conflict. 

and then they go right to vacuo, which is on the brink of civil war. this is step three. they need to figure out how to resolve the situation in vacuo, and this is why i do not think salem will arrive in vacuo until the end of v10 if at all; vacuo is sort of a proving ground for team rwby. 

can they take what they learned in the ever after and put it into practice in vacuo? can they make that mental leap from ozpin’s idea of unity (conflict avoidance, fear of disagreement, keeping secrets and hiding problems to maintain the appearance of peace while propping the whole system up with warriors trained to kill monsters and not ask questions) to true balance (which is messy and complicated and requires talking instead of fighting, negotiation and compromise instead of placation or condemnation, honesty and trust instead of manipulation and secrecy)? 

their coalition wants to protect vacuo from salem. the crown also wants to protect vacuo from salem. the two sides of this nascent civil war want the same thing, but have very different ideas about how to achieve it. v10 is about team rwby solving this, finding common cause with the crown, in preparation for step four.

which is finding common cause with salem. they want to save remnant from destruction. she also wants to save remnant from destruction, but has very different ideas about how to do it. The Rest Of The Show is about bridging that divide. she isn’t the main character so much as the final goal. 

#2: shaggy dog story

following from that: i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again, salem can’t get the Good Ending by herself either. i think whatever plan she has for dealing with the gods is probably something that will work but, gestures at the apocalyptic destruction she’s leaving strewn in her wake, she does not care how much blood she has to spill to get there, and the best case scenario for her if she continues on this path is that the gods are gone forever but the entire world reviles her and she’ll find no quarter anywhere. 

right-but-evil vs wrong-but-good. 

now in the abstract, if the relics had been just sitting on an unguarded plinth somewhere and team rwby had taken it upon themselves to keep them away from her… then sure, they’d have been better off staying home to let her scoop the damn things up and stab light in the heart, figuratively speaking. but ozpin had the relics locked down inside fortresses guarded by children, three in the middle of major urban population centers. salem. can’t get to them by herself without killing a whole lot of people.

so if nothing else, if literally nothing else, team rwby saved thousands of people who would have died in mantle/atlas and i am pretty sure they’re going to save thousands of people who are now trapped under mountain glenn, to bring that full circle. EVEN IF making peace with salem were to look like the heroes just adopting her plan with no notes and handing over the last relic, they’d still be the sole reason hundreds of thousands of people survived to see the world get saved. 

but i can also guarantee that’s… not what making peace with salem will look like. the stakes are very high for everyone and there is a lot that needs to be addressed. what happens to the grimm? to the huntsmen academies? how does her vision of a new world conflict with the future they want? (how do they deal with the way fear of collective punishment shapes her plans, because i do think her plan for dealing with the gods depends on the whole world being credibly united against her as a failsafe against round two of “we killed the world to punish you”?) what compromises do they demand from her? how do they challenge her? etc.

this is a type of narrative arc rwby has already proven to be pretty good at handling—look at ‘cordially invited,’ look at the whole amity-or-mantle split underpinning the plot of v8. there are even more moving pieces in negotiating with salem than in either of those combined, and team rwby—by virtue of being the main characters and by virtue of being the ones who brought the vacuo coalition and the crown together—will be the ones shepherding all of this. 

#3 agency

salem is pleased about the broadcast for, i believe, two reasons:

in the short term, it hands her an opportunity to force the sword out of the vault without risking cinder’s life on a silver platter, because if she takes a rain check on showing up to be the Great Evil they’ll eventually have to mount a counteroffensive to hold that coalition together, and

in the longer term, once she has all four relics, if the entire world fucking hates her then the gods are less likely to kill them all to punish her if she fails. 

this is also why she razes vale to the ground (and the first is another reason i anticipate a lot of survivors trapped in mountain glenn—hostages). 

i don’t see that either of these reasons reduce the agency of the main characters or make salem the main character, any more than e.g. cinder’s pleasure when the black queen virus hops from ozpin’s desk to ironwood’s scroll makes her the main character of the beacon arc. villains have motivations and agency as characters too and one of the basic building blocks of narrative is action-reaction pushing and pulling between hero and villain. 

ruby takes action. salem reacts to turn it to her advantage, because that’s how she operates. the vacuo coalition will react to her destruction of vale (and probable hostage-taking) with either a counteroffensive or an attempt to save people without handing over the sword, or both, or take the riskier but higher reward option of talking to her, which she doesn’t expect (and may react quite badly to, because of the second reason). 

the reason i discuss salem’s motivations and plans so disproportionately in comparison to the heroes is that she’s more opaque and teasing out what she wants and why she does things is a lot more challenging than it is for the main characters; they are, always, trying to protect everyone they can from those who do harmful destructive things. there is an abundance of other very interesting things to talk about with regard to the mains, but within this broad overarching narrative their motivation is Extremely Simple. they don’t want bad things to happen to people. 

so when it comes to speculation, if you can puzzle out “what will salem do?” it tends to be self-evident what the good guys will do in response. because the response is always “stop salem” and will continue to be that until it turns into “help salem,” which is really just a different means to the same end of protecting people from salem but one that requires her to cooperate, and she isn’t going to cooperate if they don’t surprise her.

it’s similar to “what is ozpin hiding from us?” in that there’s another key change coming—so far salem has taken the initiative in every arc. she attacks beacon, she attacks haven, she attacks atlas, she razed vale. villainous action, heroic reaction. they need to, in essence, react and then act in a way that she doesn’t anticipate. and then she reacts. 

but narratively, the way this plays out—the focus and momentum of the story is with the main characters. it’s going to cut away to salem only as much as is needed to set up her reaction when the main characters take the initiative. the story is how the main characters get to the point where they can do that. 

#4 character consistency 

the key point here is that all of salem’s relationships within her inner circle (and more broadly the factions she aligns herself with) are strictly transactional; she is able to trust and feel secure in these relationships only as long as they don’t care about her and she doesn’t care about them. but the instantshe becomes consciously aware of caring about cinder in 6.4 she goes kind of nuts. 

dropping everything to rush to atlas after saying she was going to leave cinder to toil in isolation. then being mean to her. then doubling down on being mean. then folding like wet cardboard when cinder called her bluff, landing on “good for you for defying me when i was cruel,” and immediately razing vale rather than send cinder after the summer maiden. 

this is what salem caring looks like; going to extremely destructive lengths to protect someone whom she is, in almost the same breath, trying to shove away. remember all the ruby-salem parallels that began to really erupt in v9? “if you stay with me, you’re going to end up dead, too” is one of them. salem:

lost her mother in childbirth. her father blamed her and locked her up with a wet nurse from infancy because he wanted nothing to do with her except insofar as he could treat her like a defective imitation of her mother once she grew older

grew up imprisoned in a tower, watching her father execute not just anyone who tried to help her but anyone who spoke to her; being caught offering her kindness was a crime punishable by death. 

fell in love with a man who then promptly grew sick and died, and got brutally punished by the gods for asking him to be restored to life.

told people her story and gathered a following of a few hundred, maybe a few thousand people who agreed to stand with her against the gods, and the gods murdered not only these people but also everyone in the world, to punish her defiance.

refused, millions of years later, to help ozma enact his mandate from those gods; he left her and they attacked each other and fought so brutally that their children (and entire household) died in the crossfire and their whole kingdom collapsed overnight. 

has spent decades watching ozpin treat children as expendable cannon fodder, bloody grist in the mill of an imaginary war to get rid of her. 

salem blames herself for at least the latter two (#5 is made clear by the framing in 6.4 and underscored by paralleling with jaune in 9.7; #4 is implied by salem glossing over her rebellion out of fear that ozma would reject her, a fear she could only feel if she felt guilt), and i will not be remotely surprised if it turns out she’s blaming herself for the first three as well. certainly ozpin implies in his commentary on ‘the girl in the tower’ that the blood her father spilled is on her hands because she asked for help.

the point is, i don’t think it’s possible to understand salem as a character without considering what it would do to a person for this to be the defining narrative of her life, literally from birth, that she is the reason others die. she killed her mother; it’s her fault that her father murdered anyone who showed her kindness; she was selfish and arrogant to plead for her lover’s life; her turning other people against the gods who enforce this rule is cause for genocide; her children are dead because she is a monster. if you stay with me you’re going to end up dead too.

ozma was her last and only hope—the one who saved her from the tower, who knew her before, who chose to come back for her—that anyone might ever see something in her worth helping, worth loving, worth protecting. his betrayal shattered her trust, but that isn’t why salem is the way she is. 

she always felt unlovable. she always felt monstrous. the foundation of her identity is guilt. she is the scapegoat. she is the reason everyone else must die. and it’s her fate to be the one left standing with all that blood smeared on her hands, because she is always, always the justification for the killing. all this endless death! salem calmed down when yang spat that in her face instead of getting angry because it rang true to her.

it isn’t that she’s incapable of trusting or making emotional connections or seeking common cause with others—although her preferred method for doing so begins with inflicting violence on herself or inviting others to inflict violence on her so there is severe dysfunction there—but rather she feels a deep conviction that doing so is materially harmful, that she endangers people by asking for help, and therefore that no one who understood her could ever want to help her. 

if no one sees her clearly, if she performs her role as the fairytale witch and allows people to cast whatever distorted reflections of themselves onto her that they like, she can maintain the emotional detachment that makes her feel safe. as long as she is alone, no matter how painful it is, she feels safe.

but once she notices herself caring about cinder… she desperately wants to keep cinder safe and that motivates her cruelty, because if she cares about cinder then cinder will, eventually, be killed to punish salem. and if cinder knew that she would run, and she should run while she still can. this is woven into the foundations of how salem sees herself.

#5 satisfaction

the conceit of this reading is that there is one way to resolve the central narrative conflict, which is the war between ozma and salem. the Problem Of Salem is that she cannot be killed and never gives up, so even if they defeated her now and sealed her away in a vault somewhere or whatever, nothing would really change. the world would still be broken and endangered by this conflict. oscar would die; ozma would gradually decay again until he became another ozpin.

moreover, it’s becoming increasingly clear that they can’t defeat salem. oz wiped out hundreds of thousands if not millions of grimm in the blink of an eye—and half the fandom kept treating that like the inflection point, as if salem had exhausted all of her resources and now had nothing left to bring to vacuo—and then what happened? she turned around a few weeks later and flattened vale.

if this were a conflict ozlem could resolve on their own, they would have done so long ago and there wouldn’t be a story, or at least not this story. the reason the story is happening right now is that team rwby are the ones who can make what needs to happen, happen. 

the only thing that makes this narrative different from a bog standard fantasy war story is that, well, as ‘for every life’ put it, some heroes chose the wrong side. so instead of a straightforward narrative about good guys persevering through trials and tribulations until they triumph over the bad guys it’s a narrative about the good guys—team rwby—learning that doing the right thing is actually really difficult and complicated, because there’s no such thing as pure evil and because the things they were taught to believe aren’t always true. 

salem is evil (she kills people) but right (she refuses to surrender remnant to a genocidal tyrant) and just a person (she deserves compassion as does everyone). ozma is good (he wants to save people) but wrong (he serves the genocidal tyrant) and just a person (he deserves compassion as does everyone). 

narratively, the purpose of team rwby is to take right and good and put them back together. with ozma this means team rwby is the driving force that causes him first to be honest with himself and others, then to rebel against his role as the god of light’s servant—because his problem is that he’s wrong. with salem, team rwby first have to tear down all the obfuscating false narratives built up around her (this arc began in v6 and is ongoing) and then hold out a hand and challenge her to meet them halfway. which she will, because the cinder stuff is challenging her in the same way that “what is ozpin hiding from us?” challenged oz.

this is not anything different from say, what blake does narratively for ilia or what penny and weiss do for winter, or what oscar tries to do for ironwood, or what ruby and yang do for raven, or what ruby does in forgiving neo. it’s at a larger scale because salem is a central character—the main villain—but the same in principle. they open a door and she has to walk through it. 

this remains true even if salem is notionally the one who initiates the conversation, e.g. by revealing the existence of hostages in mountain glenn and demanding the sword, because if she does that then obviously team rwby can’t and won’t play on her terms. this remains true even if salem initiates the conversation in earnest, e.g. by putting all her cards on the table and asking for help, because the focus of the narrative then will be on team rwby grappling with the very daunting question of whether to take the risk of hearing her out and the emotional stakes of agreeing to negotiate.

again, gestures at jax and gillian. the crown wants exactly the same thing that the heroes do, but their methods are destructive and harmful and while they might be able to achieve a victory against salem if they won, it would be a very pyrrhic victory indeed. this is precisely the narrative set up regarding salem and dealing with the crown is the last set of training wheels for team rwby before they’re ready to tackle the Salem Problem. 

it may help to think of it in terms of negotiation being equivalent to the battles in a standard fantasy war story. typically you would expect the main character to face a series of increasingly difficult fights against increasingly dangerous opponents until they’re ready to bring the fight to the villain, and then they win. if they lose a battle they’ll train and become stronger and eventually face that opponent again and win this time. yeah?

well. rwby is doing that but with talking. weiss and blake have their blow up fight over weiss’s bigotry in v1 and weiss has to listen and apologize. v2-5 team rwby lose every important fight against salem’s agents except for the one that forces qrow to reveal himself and bring RNJR into the loop and the one where yang confronts raven and persuades her mother to give her the lamp. v6, ruby triumphs over cordovin and the bees defeat adam only after making a serious effort to reason with both of them, and then the leviathan is defeated because cordovin ultimately took what ruby said to her to heart. v7 is centrally about trying to talk ironwood down from the fascism ledge and get everyone to the table to negotiate. v8 is in many ways an examination of why they couldn’t get through to ironwood in the end—that intense fear of division and consequent inability to handle disagreement constructively—while setting up, through salem’s erratic treatment of cinder, the idea that salem is not beyond reason or incapable of change. v9 is literally just an extended training montage where they practice empathy and critical thinking and learn to ask questions and listen instead of making snap judgments. 

see how it builds? their journey isn’t about becoming better fighters so they can beat salem, it’s about developing the skills and perspective they need to talk to her. but that really only works narratively if salem wants something that the heroes can find common cause with—there has to be a connection, something they can listen and then say “we want that too, so work with us” about. in the same way thatif this were a story about defeating salem, she would have to have a weakness, something they could do to negate her power or make her mortal again, so that defeating her isn’t impossible. 

and again if you have trouble envisioning how this can happen without displacing team rwby as the main characters, look at how things shake out in v7 and v8 with the negotiations and disagreements the kids deal with in those volumes. because those are preludes for averting the vacuan civil war in v10 (or ending it in a truce) and that’s the prelude to dealing with salem.