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morelikebaldursgay · 2 years ago

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Orin Birth Timeline

I don’t know if this will be useful to anyone else, but I had a bunch of trouble figuring this out, so hopefully it will be helpful to someone else and/or there’ll be someone who’s played all of the Baldur’s Gate games and read Minsc and Boo’s Journal of Villainy who can shed further light on the situation.

1368 DR–Sarevok, a Bhaalspawn, tries to take over Baldur’s Gate. He is aided in his endeavors by a gang of doppelgangers. He has two known partners at this time, Tamoko and Cythandria. Since he dies in this year, and consequently loses his Bhaalspawn taint, for him to have fathered a Bhaalspawn child (Helena), he must have gotten someone pregnant in this year. Tamoko canonically dies in this year, so it can’t be her, and I don’t think it’s Cythandria either, as she’s human and Helena’s mother—judging by Helena’s skin and hair color and the fact that her own daughter is a changeling—must have been a doppelganger. Also it’s possible for Cythandria to die in this year, and being dead makes it notoriously hard to carry a baby to term. As it’s the simplest solution, I imagine that he probably had a one-night stand with one of the doppelgangers he was working with, possibly after one or both of his lovers died.

1369 DR–Sarevok is revived, without his Bhaalspawn taint, by a part of Imoen’s soul (as he says he was resurrected by “the fairest Bhaalspawn” or something along those lines). He goes travelling with Abdel Adrian (who, I’m sorry to say, is the canon Gorion’s Ward in BG3) to redeem himself, and eventually goes to Kara-Tur to bury Tamoko’s ashes.

Sometime after that, Sarevok led a successful mercenary group, but was disappointed by the lack of satisfaction it gave him compared to his pursuit of godhood. Notably, his aging was slowed by what remained of his divine essence (it seems to increase your lifespan at least x2) (possibly he had Imoen to thank for this?). Eventually he became a homeless drug addict.

At some point Bhaal contacts him and gives him a new purpose as the high priest of his clergy. Given Bhaal’s focus in one of the scrapped Dark Urge endings on making more Bhaalspawn, I have to imagine that, if he had not reconnected with Helena and/or her mother by this point for more wholesome reasons, Bhaal would have pushed him to seek out Helena—who would have been 1/2 Bhaalspawn, or theoretically 1/4 Bhaal—at this point, and thus would have been one of, if not the only, person still alive with Bhaalspawn taint (other than Abdel Adrian and the guy who killed him) (assuming the Dark Urge wasn’t born yet when this happened (I estimate their “canon” birth/creation was probably around 1450-1460 DR, given they were a serial killer by 1477 DR)). At some point after this—I’m not sure when, only that it must be after the Dark Urge was created, given that they call Orin “little sister”, and that it was probably before 1472 given that Orin looks older than 20 in 1492–Sarevok, possibly out of a desire to please his father by creating as “pure” Bhaalspawn as possible (maybe thinking the child of a Bhaalspawn and an ex-Bhaalspawn with a little divine essence would create a more divine child than a Bhaalspawn and a normal human?) has sex with his daughter, Helena. This results in the birth of Orin, who is 1/4 Bhaalspawn, or 1/8 Bhaal, possibly slightly more depending on if you think Sarevok got a little bit of taint from Imoen’s soul.

TL;DR:

1368 DR—Sarevok has sex with one of the doppelgangers he works with and fathers Helena, who is 1/4 Bhaal. He then dies.

1369 DR—Sarevok is revived, sans the Bhaalspawn taint, although he still has enough divine essence to double his lifespan, courtesy of Imoen.

Somewhere in between: Sarevok tries to redeem himself, starts a mercenary group, gets depressed, gets addicted to drugs, becomes unhoused, becomes the high priest of and possibly refounds the Cult of Bhaal in Baldur’s Gate, and reconnects with Helena, who joins the Cult.

~1460-1470 DR/between the Dark Urge’s birth/creation and 1470 DR: Sarevok has sex with his daughter Helena, producing Orin, who is around 1/8 Bhaal.

#bg3 #Sarevok anchev #orin the red #orin anchev #helena anchev #cw incest mention #cw drugs mention #cw addiction mention #bg3 spoilers

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absolutehomosexuals · 7 months ago

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The Infamous "Durge Is a Man" Essay

I - INTRODUCTION

There's one simple question that led us to developing this theory: "would Bhaal want a female heir?"

Bhaal created Durge to be his ideal successor: the hand who would've reaped death in the world, conquering it in His name.

Every detail we get about Durge's lore is tied to this objective, the entire purpose of Bhaal's creation.

The cult is obviously shown to us as patriarchal, which is hinted at from the sole fact they worship a male deity: the argument may come off as silly at first, since one could argue Gods do not understand nor care for the concepts of gender.

It would be a valid counterpoint, if it wasn't for the fact Bhaal used to be a human, having navigated the world as a fully grown man before he eventually became a God.

If we believe he created Durge in his ideal image, it seems much more intuitive for his offspring to be male.

II - THE MATTER OF SUCCESSION

We must note that Bhaal's plans heavily rely (as we can read in Durge's "diary" tab) on reproduction ; e.g "siring lots of Bhaalspawn".

This alone isn't coded as one sex or the other but, if we think of it in terms of convenience, a female heir wouldn't be your first choice for the task: women can only gestate one child per year and conceive in very specific windows of time within their cycle, while men can potentially impregnate countless women in the same time span and not suffer any physical disadvantages during gestation.

We should also consider women tend to develop a bond with their newborn and the latter needs to rely on them for survival during the first few months of their life, while a man:

1. has no such obligations from a social point view (especially in a medieval context, where bastard children were the norm)

2. isn't strictly needed by the child for survival, biologically speaking.

I doubt Bhaal was expecting his heir to keep track of her cycle, gestate for nine months with all the drawbacks that come with it, give birth risking death and spend the following months caring for a newborn – all of this, on repeat for years if not centuries.

"But he's a God, he could potentially speed up the process!"

Technically true, but why would he go through such trouble, if he could craft his ideal child as a male and avoid complications?

The game itself seems to agree with this theory, since you get the "Bhaal's stallion" line regardless of your Durge's gender, in one of the bad endings.

We could also consider the idea that reproduction = power, "spreeding the seed", to be a typically patriarchal concept.

Bhaal himself isn't fond of the idea of raising children, as he let Durge be raised by an adoptive family – a "regular" one no less, meaning he didn't even concern himself with choosing one.

III - IN-UNIVERSE MYSOGINY

There are many aspects of the religion that seem to glorify manhood, and for its leader to be a woman (by Bhaal's choice, no less) seems inconsistent.

Let's think of the infamous blessing granted to Bhaal's favourites, the Ecstasy of Murder, which basically consists in a pseudo prostatic orgasm.

Then we consider the presence of predominantly-male sexual crimes, both coming from Durge and other important figures within the cult.

We cannot deny necrophilia, for functional reasons, is extremely uncommon amongst women: necrophilic acts are typically carried out by penetrating a dead body, as it's almost the only pleasurable act you can perform on a corpse ; Durge being a known necrophiliac pre-lobotomy could be one of the many hints the character is meant to be read as male.

Not to mention the horrendous way in which Bhaalist female characters are treated in-universe, between Sarevok sexually abusing his daughter (and this concept being treated as completely normal by the narrative, as far as we know of) and Orin being constantly belittled.

We never hear of any male cultists undergoing the same treatment, meaning abusing women is the norm amongst Bhaal's faithful – yet again, a telltale sign of a patriarchal religion.

"But Orin isn't mistreated because of her sex, she's mistreated because she's not the true heir!"

Orin is, indeed, not Bhaal's biological daughter: she's related to Him by blood, but as Durge himself says, her blood is "diluted".

However, while he acknowledges she's not his biological sister, he still addresses her as such in multiple sources, meaning the cult leader himself doesn't care about her actual origins.

She's constantly portrayed as someone who gets talked down to, cast aside and her beliefs are harshly criticized both by Durge and others influential members such as Sarevok.

For Larian to choose a woman to fill this role could have been accidental, but we must admit the symbolism is quite clear.

Orin interprets murder as a form of art, while her Bhaalist peers frequently accuse of her misunderstanding her own faith, considering her too immature to lead the flock.

She's the only Bhaalist female character we're shown as remarkable, and she's coincidentally used as an example of someone the cult does not respect ; she's even biologically related to Bhaal and yet, she had to seize power by force.

IV - ROMANTIC SUBTEXTS

Another interesting matter are the characters commonly paired with Durge in fanworks: Durgetash and Durgestarion are the most popular romantic pairings according to ao3, and we cannot blame the fandom for catching up on the subtext.

Durge's "admiration" (as he calls it himself) towards Gortash is viewed as controversial and arises suspicion in-universe, to the point he feels the need to apologize to his Father and repent for an implicit sin.

While it would be scandalous to fraternize with Gortash even in a platonic matter – he's practically the leader of the rival cult –, the emphasis put on justifying their interactions has been interpreted by fans as romantic subtext.

The letter in which Durge addresses the issue is titled "Letter for Forgiveness", despite Gortash only being mentioned at the beginning, while the rest of the letter focuses on different topics entirely.

Right after expressing guilt for the way he views Gortash, Durge proceeds to repeat Bhaal's plan and promises to follow it, stressing that he would have made his Father proud regardless.

The letter overall comes off as an attempt to justify being attracted to Gortash and reassuring Bhaal that it wouldn't come in the way of their plans, as it would pose an enormous threat otherwise.

Durge being attracted to Gortash – if we choose to interpret him as a man – would come with a handful of important challenges: first of all, sympathizing with the 'enemy', implying Durge could abandon the idea of betraying him or even allow Gortash to do the same to him.

Second of all, being capable of such vulnerability that would come in the way of being a sentient weapon: a killing machine isn't supposed to feel pity, let alone experience something as foolish as forbidden love.

And thirdly, for Bhaal's heir to prefer the company of men is simply a disgrace, as it would come in the way of reproduction and possibly undermine his public image.

While all of this may have not been meant as a homosexual allegory, the fact you can find the Letter for Forgiveness on Durge's corpse if you play as Tav, still comes off as "bringing a secret to the grave".

Not to mention the note at the end of the letter, written by another cultist, reading: "Ha! Orin was right about her sibling." which is clearly a jab at what we mentioned above.

When you go to confront Orin in Act III (as Durge) about the fact she has been following you around town, she replies: "The little lordling has been whispering in your ears? He always knew how to tumble and twist your mind matter, leaving you knotted in his chords."

The matter of Durge's attraction to Gortash is seen as something silly and shameful at the same time: it's an open secret cult members dare to joke about, because they find it ridiculous.

If a hypothetical female heir of Bhaal had the slightest possibility of reproducing with the Chosen of Bane, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't find it as humorous – they find it hilarious because it's taboo, a powerful demigod developing a "school crush" on a male ally.

We should also talk about some of the in-game implications about Gortash, such as being someone who possibly "slept his way to the top": managing to charm and daze a much more powerful man on purpose sounds surprisingly in-character.

What we find even more interesting are the implications that come with Durgestarion, a pairing the writers are openly fond of.

We know both characters were characterized by the same writer, the latter going out of his way to include personalized romance interactions between the two: unlike other characters, romancing Astarion as Durge gives the player access to tons of new dialogue lines and greetings, sometimes making for a completely new experience compared to romancing him with a regular Tav.

Some hints may point to Durge being the "canonical" romance for Astarion, as many fans have speculated ; while one may disagree with that sentiment, we must admit it's not far fetched.

If we consider all of Astarion's canonical past relationships (meaning, the few ones he actually deems important and genuine) were with men, and the emphasis put on Durge's "admiration" towards Gortash + the incessant pressure Bhaal puts on him to reproduce, the thought of these characters romancing each other in an alternative timeline actually sounds liberating.

Some Durge-specific lines Astarion says during his romance arc seem to be aimed at a male character, rather than sounding gender neutral: the first example that comes to mind is "Are you alright now, or is today a 'I will wed you with a delicate veil of blood blooming over your white curls' kind of day?"

Astarion sarcastically references Durge "wedding him", thus putting the player in a stereotipical "groom" role from the start, with the veil resembling the one brides typically wear during the cerimony.

If we consider all other aspects mentioned in this theory, the line reads as somewhat... male-coded.

If we want to be truly insane about this theory – and of course, we do – , we could even add a "gay allegory" element to the equation.

A vampire and the spawn of an evil deity, excluded members of society who'd usually feel a compulsion to hide, are implied to fall in love by the narrative.

V - ACTING CHOICES

Finally, we come to the voice actor: while a specific actor was chosen to play the character and is regarded as the iconic Durge VA, Larian didn't concern themselves with choosing a female voice actor to include the possibility of a female Durge, which is why we can only hear his intro in Neil Roberts' voice.

VI - CONCLUSION

With all of this taken into account, a female Durge seems to be an after-thought, if not directly a fantasy or a headcanon that the game gives you the possibility to play out.

The original narrative, as we can see, best accomodates a male character.

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