#queen's shadow spoilers

[cheseely]

Mother Marika

[drenched-in-sunlight]

i think whenever Marika was on the edge of spiraling, only Messmer knew how to pull her back.

(my art is always based on this theory)

[thewisecheerio]

Based on the INT requirements for the sorceries they can cast, Rennala and Rellana are canonically two of the most intelligent characters in Elden Ring. And the fact that they both fell for unhinged, genocidal redheads is proof that intelligence is not the same as wisdom.

[slavonicrhapsody]

they simply hate to see a girlboss winning

(DLC edition of this post)

[fiddlesqueak-fables]

I’m being driven to kill.

Read the Crusade Insignia talisman, I beg of you.

[esspurrr]

SHES ALL IN.

[neo--queen--serenity]

The whole vampire household has been touting how Guillermo is “just Nandor’s familiar” for over 4 seasons now. And even at the beginning of this episode, Nadja says it again! She says, “why don’t you take him to urgent care, Nandor, he’s your familiar.”

But once Nadja gets him to urgent care, and the vampire doctor says he’s going to put Guillermo down, she immediately says, with no hesitation, “You can’t do that! Because…because he’s OUR familiar!!!!”

Not just Nandor’s. OURS. And then she proceeds to fuck up that entire clinic to save Guillermo, to protect him and bring him home, even after learning about him being turned already. That’s the good found family shit right there.

[feukt-42]

After a bit of time and a hefty amount of thinking abt the lore, SOTE really brings this post to my mind.

It's like. Miquella did love Malenia and Godwyn, but couldnt cure them the way he was. He did want to better the world, but it didnt help him as he retraced his mother's footsteps.

Midra did love, and was loved, he endured for ages in memory of the love he shared with Nanaya, and her entreaty. This didnt stop the inquisitors from ramming the sword of damnation through his throat.

Messmer did love his mother, and he obviously cared for her people. He cared for his knights, even when they betrayed him. He even seems to have cared about the hornsent in some capacity, judging by the amount of hornsent culture that remains preserved in the storehouse. And yet, despite all that, he still is responsible for the slaughter, and utter genocide the hornsent suffered. He still couldnt save the jar saints. He still couldnt get his mother to answer his pleas.

Marika did love Messmer. The amount of blessings she gave him is proof enough. She did love him, but it didnt prevent her from sending him on an endless crusade.

Marika loved her people. It didnt matter.

"Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one left to heal." "What was her prayer ? Her wish, her confession ? There is no one left to answer, and Marika never returned home again."

By the way, small addendum that is only somewhat related bc i dont want to make a full post abt it

The shaman village ost is the elden beast theme with only the harp, without the grandiose melody.

"Only the kindness of Gold, without Order."

[nintendonut1]

i did the twitter meme thing

[fruity-m0nster]

Marika holding baby Messmer

> previous one

[nuadha-airgeadlamh]

godhood and the nature of the world

For me some of the most interesting dialogue delivered in the DLC comes from Ymir when you ask him about the nature of the world:

"I fear that you have borne witness to the whole of it. The conceits – the hypocrisy – of the world built upon the Erdtree. The follies of men. Their bitter suffering. Is there no hope for redemption? The answer, sadly, is clear. There never was any hope. They were each of them defective. Unhinged, from the start. Marika herself. And the fingers that guided her. And this is what troubles me. No matter our efforts, if the roots are rotten, …then we have little recourse."

Immediately upon hearing this dialogue I thought of the item description for the Mending Rune of Perfect Order:

"The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment."

I think Ymir and Goldmask are essentially stating the same fundamental ideas here, and that these ideas hit upon a key theme of the entire game: human beings should not become gods.

Marika's traumatic origins are laid bare at the Bonny and Shaman Villages. The extermination of her people through such disturbing means no doubt left her horribly scarred. The spirit in the Whipping Hut spells out how the Potentates treated the Shaman:

"For pity's sake, your place is in the jar. Nigh-sainthood itself awaits your within. For shamans like you, this is your lot. Life were you accorded for this alone."

And the Minor Erdtree incantation demonstrates her bereavement:

Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal.

We know, too, from Ymir that the Fingers were just as broken as Marika, the children of an abandoned mother.

"Do you recall what I said? That Marika, and the fingers that guided her, were unsound from the start. Well, the truth lies deeper still. It is their mother who is damaged and unhinged. The fingers are but unripe children. Victims in their own right. We all need a mother, do we not? A new mother, a true mother, who will not give birth to further malady."

And the Staff of the Great Beyond gives us further context behind this:

The Mother received signs from the Greater Will from the beyond of the microcosm. Despite being broken and abandoned, she kept waiting for another message to come.

Marika's ascension to godhood placed a traumatized person in a position of ultimate power. Yes, the Hornsent did terrible, unspeakable things to the Shaman people and employed a truly brutal inquisition, but there is no excuse for what Marika did to them through her Crusade. There is no excuse for what she did to the Hornsent, or to the Fire Giants, or to any of the victims of the Golden Order's colonizing mission. The game makes this abundantly clear. Did Hornsent's wife and child deserve to die by Messmer's flames? Does the Hornsent Grandam deserve to remain alone and abandoned, her home crumbling around her? What about the Dried Bouquet, a talisman you find in Belurat:

A quaint bouquet of dried flowers, offered to a small grave.

Raises attack power when a spirit you have summoned dies.

The sorrow that flows from the untimely demise of a loved one is a tenderness shared by all, regardless of birthplace.

The game even draws parallels between the Hornsent Inquisition and the Golden Order's torture methods in the description of the Ash of War: Golden Crux on the Greatsword of Damnation:

Leap up and skewer foe from overhead. If successful, the weapon's barbs unfold to excruciate from within; else, additional input releases barbs in the area. There is something of the Golden Order in the sight of those fixed upon this crux.

After dark, does Limgrave not fill with the screams of the crucified? There is no perfect society— there is no society whose crimes warrant absolute extermination. By giving her the capacity for limitless violence, godhood has made Marika into the perpetrator of some of the greatest crimes in the Lands Between.

We see this effect happening in real time through Miquella's story. While his ideology may initially seem admirable — redemption for those oppressed by the Golden Order, redemption for the Hornsent — on his road to godhood, he abandons everything that matters. The path to godhood is an inherently dehumanizing process and requires of Miquella for him to cast aside everything that makes him him.

Ymir says about Miquella that:

"Ever-young Miquella saw things for what they were. He knew that his bloodline was tainted. His roots mired in madness. A tragedy if ever there was one. That he would feel compelled to renounce everything. When the blame…lay squarely with the mother."

What I believe Ymir is articulating here is that Miquella seeks to atone for his mother's crimes and remove the corrupt order by usurping her position as god, even though he personally is not to blame for these deeds. Hornsent states similar ideas:

"Miquella has said as much himself – he wishes now to throw it all away. He says the act – though undoubtedly painful – will sear clean the Erdtree’s wanton sin. The truth of his claim can be found at each cross. Tis evidence enough to earn my belief."

"Uphold his covenant Miquella shall, and in godhood redeem our rueful clan. Then Marika, and vilest Erdtree both, will at last be from divinity wrench’d."

But in order to replace Marika, Miquella must also commit terrible crimes: he abandons his other half, he beguiles even those who would oppose him into being his very own blind followers. He charmed Mohg and violated his corpse, and Radahn's consent in this whole matter is dubious. In trying to make up for Marika's atrocities by becoming god of a new, kinder age, Miquella leaves behind a whole host of his own sins.

I believe that "the conceits – the hypocrisy – of the world built upon the Erdtree" and "the fickleness of the gods no better than men" are addressing this same idea. Miquella and Marika are no more special or inherently better than anyone else; they become fickle gods and establish hypocritical orders because no human being is perfect enough to wield absolute power with an even hand. Even Ymir himself falls prey to this thinking: he believes he can be a better mother than the ones before him, but he is just as broken as he rightfully points out they were.

This theme goes hand-in-hand with the story's emphasis on the Tarnished as the new inheritors of the Lands Between. From the very beginning, it establishes that it is the Tarnished who are chosen to succeed Radagon as Elden Lord, not the demigods. The intro cinematic announces this:

"Arise now, ye Tarnished. Ye dead, who yet live. The call of long-lost grace speaks to us all. Hoarah Loux, chieftan of the badlands. The ever-brilliant Goldmask. Fia, the Deathbed Companion. The loathsome Dung Eater. And Sir Gideon Ofnir, the All-knowing. And one other. Whom grace would again bless. A Tarnished of no renown. Cross the fog, to the Lands Between. To stand before the Elden Ring. And become the Elden Lord."

Enia translates for the Fingers that the Greater Will itself has abandoned the demigods:

"The Greater Will has long renounced the demigods. Tarnished, show no mercy. Have their heads. Take all they have left."

We the "Tarnished of no renown" enter the story at a major crossroads. The time of fickle Marika and her warring demigods is over: by the time we defeat Radagon and the Elden Beast, she is only an empty husk. We are ushering in a new age in which gods are no longer the primary overlords of the Lands Between, in which the power is vested in ordinary people.

I think the array of endings offered up to us further demonstrates this point. Every unique ending, save one, is based around the ideology of a Tarnished, whether it be Goldmask, Fia, Dungeater, or you as the Lord of Frenzied Flame. The only ending themed around a demigod is Ranni's. I've seen people complain before about how you can't side with the demigods and bring about the worlds they envision —Mohg's Age of Blood, Miquella's Age of Compassion, Rykard's destruction of the very gods themselves— but I think this goes against the primary themes of Elden Ring's story. The time of Marika and her demigods is over: now rises the age of the Tarnished. This is why Ranni succeeds where her siblings fail: she wants no power for herself because she, too, recognizes that nothing good can come of a human becoming a god. She explains as much:

"_Mine will be an order not of gold, but the stars and moon of the chill night. I would keep them far from the earth beneath our feet. As it is now, life, and souls, and order are bound tightly together, but I would have them at great remove. And have the certainties of sight, emotion, faith, and touch… All become impossibilities."

Ranni does not wish to become the god of the Greater Will and the worshipped figurehead of the Golden Order. She wishes to set herself apart so that she cannot interfere in the affairs of the Lands Between, unlike Marika and her regime. Ranni's ending reinforces the agency of the Tarnished, while Mohg and Miquella and Rykard's endings still focus around themselves.

Godhood is a dehumanizing force that turns individuals into the most corrupt versions of themselves; the main story sees us supplanting the old, rotten order of the gods as an exiled nobody.

And I think there's no better summation of these themes than Ansbach's dying words:

"Righteous Tarnished. Become our new lord. A lord not for gods, but for men."

[chaospyromancy]

What was her prayer? Her wish, her confession? There is no one left to answer, and Marika never returned home again.

A piece to match my Ranni piece from way before the DLC came out. @porcelain-dollbones pointed out the parallel potential between the two moments, so big thanks to her<3

[drenched-in-sunlight]

Theory: Messmer's timeline and story will only make sense if you consider him Marika's beloved firstborn

Aka, welcome to my doomed Mother & Son presentation slide 🔥🫡

This is written with the assumption that readers are aware of the big reveal regarding Marika's past.

(spoilers for SoTE and long discussion from Messmer’s birth to his final moment)

edit to add this dialogue from Gideon:

EDIT 2: Messmer's helm description literally stated he accepted his fate. he was just brooding sitting in the dark minding his own business, & he'd have been fine for a long time more if the Tarnished hadn't sauntered in & triggered all of his insecurities at once.

hell, he's still maintaining the jar clinic, the Keep still shows signs of activities, his "suffering" is him not being able to see his mom. but it is what it is, he already accepted that. yet people still love to blame Marika while we are the one fucking his brain chemical up???

his bros are throwing a divine disco light party next to his house and he's like "i do not care 🫤 i do not see 😑". he doesn't even give a shit there would be a new God (as long as it's not his mom marrying someone he deems unfit). i think he'd even take up gardening while waiting for Marika to pick him up, no problem. why can't we just tell him his mom is imprisoned istg

EDIT 3: clarification on the mistranslation of Messmer's armor description

[wearepaladin]

Some quick Elden Ring thoughts, I’m still working on the Final Boss, just want to share my thoughts on a certain deity’s tragic backstory a bit through a meta context.

In the Souls Games, a familiar mechanic is the presence of a woman who aides the Player by leveling them up. The Maiden in Black was the first in Demon’s Souls and in Elden Ring that was filled by Melina who played the role of maiden.

But I think the Fire Keeper’s of the Dark Souls trilogy have the most lore and detail accumulated about them, with them being so prominent in the world’s story of fire and dark. In the third game in particular the nameless but critical Fire Keeper was required for what I considered the most hopeful ending you could earn.

Now, in the world of Dark Souls the Fire Keepers have a rough lot at the best of times. Tending the flames that manipulate souls like a forge works iron can have spiritual effects that can range from the severe. But in order to be made ideal for their purpose to bring about the kindling of the first flame, the Fire Keepers endure mutilation and mortal sacrifice, with many killed to provide necessary kindling or suffering mutilation to ensure they are somehow more ideal to their duties, such as the removal of the eyes or tongue. Just one of these Fire Keepers with a bit of prompting, could manipulate and quiet the eternal fires that had driven the plot for countless eons

Now, in the newest chapter of Elden Ring, we learned more about Queen Marika the Eternal, that she was once a member of a tribe of shamans who were sacrificed and mutilated for spiritual purposes, with the implication being that, much like the Fire Keepers, their unique ability and powers made them suitable for harvesting, and once more the implication that left to their own purpose, could manipulate a great deal more power than those who would harvest them a like a bloody crop.

Enter she who became Queen Marika the eternal, with power and the terrible motivation to unleash that potential how she deemed fit.

Now, take a moment look at the designs for these two characters and ask, how little a difference the sole remaining keeper of the flame would care to alter the dress of her people even as she took on the likeness of a god.

Still wearing a crown, still keeping the eyes hidden, still dressed in dark hues with varying degrees light radiating in the hue.

Queen Marika, I think, is the answer to the question of if a Fire Keeper chose violence for all the loss and suffering they held, finding a voice to anger that would change the nature of the world.

[slavonicrhapsody]

does anyone remember that person who got mad at me for calling the Golden Order’s conquests and genocides condemnable and tried to argue that those things were justified in the game because they happened a long time ago and created a better society. well. I bet that person is feeling real stupid right now because the entire DLC basically revolves around confronting Marika’s ruthless conquests; it very explicitly centers the suffering and devastation of the Hornsent people at the hands of Messmer’s crusade, and wants us to question the violence Marika brought upon the native people of the Shadow Lands for the sake of establishing her Order. Confronting the human cost of colonialism was always a deliberate and intentional theme in Elden Ring, and that’s never been more apparent than right now

[ember-amber]

Figured this rant was a better way to phrase my thoughts. This lore is driving me mad.

A LIE