#slash and zombie are pretty dog like but living with sigurd is like living with a tiger

[darkwood-sleddog]

Do you have any books/articles on how to train primitive (specifically northern) breeds? I’ve seen a lot these past couple of years that stubborn dogs aren’t necessarily that, just that you might not have the right motivator/approach, so do you have any advice on how you built engagement and managed to train your dogs? (As I’m assuming mushing does require a some level of obedience) Asking as someone who wants a northern breed but also wants to do obedience and wants to know if that’s possible😅

Obedience with northern breeds is absolutely possible, but if you want to do competitive obedience that is like giving yourself a handicap...very possible to achieve success but it will be much more work for you than your peers with border collies and retrievers as these sort of sports don't cater to most northern breeds best qualities. (I actually know quite a few Malamutes in competitive obedience, but again. It's not breed typical so this sort of desire for biddability I would absolutely bring up with any breeder you decide to purchase from. Slash for example loves working with a handler one on one and doing obedience work and I can work him for longer periods, Sigurd reaches a boredom threshold much much sooner and would not be good for this sort of work, but he listens beautifully in harness and on hikes.)

With primitive dogs it's all about finding the proper motivator for them to want to do something for you. Everything with primitive breeds is about want and desire. They're incredibly smart and a huge majority of primitive breeds also have a survivalist aspect to them which makes them individualistic and able to make decisions on their own (or as I like to call it the "why? factor").

Most primitive dogs when you ask them to do things without showing them what items/behaviors of high value you have to provide in exchange for work:

Now I will say for my own circumstances, my dogs are not perfectly obedient (far from it), and teaching them to mush and do what I ask of them in that context is very different than asking them to do things outside of a working environment. Mushing was the easiest thing I taught my dogs, more than even basic daily obedience tasks, because running in harness is the ultimate motivator for drivey working bred sled breeds and they are more willing to listen to continue to be able to do so (vs disobeying a command in harness and having me stop the whole team to reset).

A really great blog is Couch Wolves, it's all about working with primitive dogs and learning to appreciate their individual way of thinking. The authors are extremely qualified and have worked with a number of difficult and primitive breeds in an obedience setting.

[darkwood-sleddog]

Uh it’s only the first week of June and I already desire this so much.

[darkwood-sleddog]

hi, I know that you have Mal experiences, but do you know which of the northern breeds is more affectionate? I really love spitzes/ northern breeds, the only off putting thing is that most aren't physically affectionate.

Hmm this is hard because affection can be entirely individual and difficult to predict (Zombie for example is an absolute love sponge and will climb in your lap...if you are a guest bc that's different/exciting and Slash is a needy baby demanding your attention at all times & snuggles with us in bed literally every night), but spitz type dogs are often not as physically affectionate as other breeds simply because they get too warm.

HAIR. they have a lot of hair and an insulating undercoat so naturally they will get warm very quickly. This means cuddles are often short lived because of their comfort levels. Choosing a breed with less undercoat and/or breeds bred for extreme cold weather will increase your chances of long term cuddles (although I have heard samoyeds are super affectionate). Us human beings also tend to keep our houses way too warm for many northern breeds to want to cuddle, if the power goes out on a winter evening they WILL cuddle all night speaking from experience.

I'd say the 'hard temperament' spitz dogs like Malamutes, Greenland Dogs, and certain hunting laika may be less physically affectionate in higher percentages as their work often demanded them to have a more intense/tough temperament overall, but that's not to say that individuals can't be affectionate it's just hard to predict that in a puppy temperament test. Aloofness, just like any other aspect of temperament, exists on a sliding scale. I'd say choosing a breeder that is knowledgable about how temperament passes down to their puppies will be helpful here and they may be able to pick a more 'needy' or attention seeking puppy (also be warned this often comes with separation anxiety in my personal experience). Understanding how the parent dogs desire attention will also be important (for example, Sigurd & Zombie's mother was a lot like Sigurd is now when we met her: politely affectionate greeting guests, getting her pets and then going off to do her own thing while Slash's mom is JUST like Slash and Zombie are now: super affectionate and wiggly to the point of being overbearing a bit).

Siberians, Alaskan Huskies, Samoyed and pretty much any of the companion spitz are all pretty affectionate, but overall I'd say spitz breeds can be quirky which is why they are so fun imo and how they desire physical or non physical attention may be different than other 'typical' dogs. I'd personally recommend trying to meet some different breeds, spend time with them and see how you like their physicality.

[darkwood-sleddog]

This is a genuine question not a criticism, but why don't slash and sigurd get along? Is it just a personality miss match or something that dogs just do sometimes?

So I'm not really sure exactly why, but to be VERY clear they only have this issue in the dining/living room area of the house and sometimes the deck (where they were when I noticed they were outside together). They are perfectly fine together in the mudroom, outside with supervision. They play in the yard together and are very friendly towards each other 99.5% of the time. Their original incident also occurred while Slash was in a fear period and I do think this affected their relationship and Slash's perception of Sigurd.

Malamutes, like many primitive dog breeds, can have Same Sex Selective Behaviors, but I'm not exactly certain that this is entirely to blame for their behavior either. They both attend supervised doggy daycares where they are great with other males and as described are fine with each other in many other scenarios. Malamutes also enjoy fighting and their play styles can be very...rough.

My behaviorist believes Slash's aversion (and believe me when I say Slash instigates each time) is fear based because inside or in smaller confined areas he feels (even if it is not true) that he cannot get away from Sigurd if he is uncomfortable and he feels the need to confront Sigurd. Sigurd, being an overly confident asshole dog is 100% going to defend himself, thus conflict in some instances (remember though, dogs generally try to avoid conflict if they can).

Sigurd makes Slash uncomfortable because Sigurd doesn't display body language inside in the same way Slash & Zombie do (he escalates quickly, is generally rude) which makes it difficult for Slash to read him even if everything Sigurd is doing in that moment is playful/positive. Sigurd displays his body language very differently outside as well. Since Slash is not the most self confident dog, again insecurity and fear are how he reacts to this 'unknown'.

I do think a part of this is resource related. Slash tends to guard areas where he feels safe (like under the table, or in their original incident a spot on the bed, or the second incident something they were sniffing while tangled in harness...so restrained in a way neither got to act naturally) and can be pretty guarded with objects, the thing is Zombie respects this...while Sigurd does not.

Luckily this is not my first rodeo. Literally all of my dogs have had similar squabbles with each other (Sigurd & Zombie used to be so terrible to the point I worried we'd need to return Zombie to our breeder but that clearly was not the case and they get along wonderfully now with zero incidents in almost three years.), but it is the first time in a long time that I've had to break up a fight by myself and the difficult thing is I very carefully monitor the boys so they DON'T have these kinds of interactions since Slash is so sensitive about all this and we've been working very hard to counter condition him to think Sigurd = positive, so this sets us back a bit in that area. It's much harder to break up the boys just because of their sheer size and strength.

[darkwood-sleddog]

Hi! I was wondering if you know any breeders that produce similar dogs to Sigurd and Zombie? I like that they’re not so big boned and fluffy like a lot of the malamutes in my area, and would love one for bikejoring where I live in northern OK

It really depends on how far you are willing to travel to get a puppy and/or if you are willing to import as this will widen your options considerably. I imported my dogs because really there are not a lot of people in the United States working malamautes in large expedition style teams (My dogs are all from Nordiclight Alaskan Malamutes in Quebec, Canada). Understandably there are not a lot of serious working breeders with dogs of a similar pedigree to my own in Oklahoma because the warm temperatures pretty much ensure the dogs cannot be worked as extensively as a lot of serious Malamute folks like to do with their teams (I never run my dogs above 50 F and while dogs can acclimate to temperatures, running above this, especially in humid areas, is a pretty big risk to the dogs).

But there are some people doing great work across the southern United States:

Wayeh in Tennesee is doing some great work (Weight Pull, Backpacking, sledding, conformation & obedience!) and would probably be your best bet on the southern east coast for like-type dogs. She has some very nice short coat females imo.

Gery Allen of Malamute Ranch LLC is in Flagstaff AZ has some dogs related to my own and does extensive work in harness, but I'm uncertain if he's bred anything recently (or if he even breeds for sale).

Nichole Royer of Kwest Malamutes is in Southern Californian and has a small program. She has extensive genetics knowledge (and some pretty black & white dogs like Slash...not that I'm biased towards that color or anything I just think its nice).

Lots of show breeders are likely to have smaller dogs also as they are breeding to the standard of which my dogs also fit in size, body type and weight. They may or may not have the drive to work in harness, but there are lots that have extensive other titles such as Ralley and/or have had offspring that have been successful with working titles. Look for more of a Kotzebue influence vs a M'Loot type influence in the dogs of breeders (there will be both in the pedigree, but what does the breeder aim to produce is the question). When looking at potential parents in addition to health testing and CHIC numbers I would also look to see if the dogs have been genetically tested for coat length. Many breeders use carrier coated dogs, but picking parents with genetically short coats (and being clear this is what you want with your breeder of choice) is your best bet for a less fluffy dog).

I find looking through the Working Dog Titles database a helpful exercise, but would steer clear of looking at dogs that have JUST the Weight Pull titles. They're not bad by any means, but weight pull folk tend to prefer a bigger boned dog than those doing sled work.

[darkwood-sleddog]

Females are retired from breeding after a certain age, but since male dogs are fertile all their lives, are they used as such or do they retire?

It's really up to the choice of the individual breeder on the retirement age of both females AND males. Males obviously can be used for much longer in their lives as fertile beings and older females also tend to welp smaller litters.

There is a huge variety on what is considered "ethical" in dog breeding. Some people believe it is more ethical to breed on every heat during a young age and then retire the dog as dogs that skip heats as they age can be prone to pyometra, others believe in giving their females breaks between litters and breeding a much smaller amount overall so their females are not constantly in whelp. I am not the definitive source of what you yourself can consider ethical, but I personally prefer dogs that have time to recover from litters and time to be a dog away from rearing young.

I also believe that the retirement of dogs at a young age puts the longevity genetics of dogs at risk. If you only breed dogs young, not knowing what other health issues may arise in the dog's life those offspring may already be adults with puppies on the ground by the time those issues present themselves. That's SEVERAL generations of dogs that you now are responsible for that may have health concerns, longevity issues etc. That's a lot of potential dogs those genetics can spread to. Overall doing things at a young age, especially in the show world, really irks me. Dogs are titled to Champion and Grand Champion before they can even qualify for OFA health testing sometimes and for me that spells both potential issues for longevity and a Kennel Club culture of wanting to rush to our next generations without thinking of the consesquences.

Meanwhile, breeding an 11 year old male for example that has great health testing, shows no signs of slowing down in his work and is in great health yields some pretty great genetics in regards to longevity. Not only can you be confident his current litter will have great health, but that his previous ones and any subsequent generations from those puppies likely hold those genetics also. So there is no reason not to breed him if he is healthy and physically capable.

For example, Slash's grandfather had his last litters at 11 last year, Slash's mom was 6 when his litter was whelped as was Sigurd & Zombie's mother. They've had other litters after those particular whelps as well. The health and longevity of that health (dogs are still able to work and be active during an older age) was a huge part of the appeal for me when looking for breeders. I am confident that barring anything unusual my dogs have a great chance to not only live a long time for dogs of their size, but be active through that time. But I am also extremely picky about longevity after loosing my golden retriever far before her time (her whole litter in fact has longevity issues) so I was determined I would not experience that heartbreak again (or at least give myself the best chance not to).