#tbh i confess i didn’t structure these options well. i could not have imagined the wide variety of responses i’d get

[goldensunset]

feel free to elaborate in tags of course on how easy or hard cosplaying them would be

bonus question: how much do you WANT to look like your icon. like are they the goal you aspire to

[mittensmorgul]

1) Is Dabb a Black Mirror fan? Cause 14x20 reminded me of "USS Callister" (4x01). It's about a gifted software developer (a "god" of programming) who takes DNA samples from his co-workers in order to insert himself and them as characters in a videogame he's created. In the videogame world he mistreats his co-workers (e.g forces one of the girls to kiss him repeatedly) and they desperately want to free themselves from his control. (+)

(2) In the end the characters find a way to communicate with their real-world counterparts, who finally manage to lock the programmer’s character in a loop of emptiness within the simulation, which he can’t escape since the co-workers left the programmer alone and motionless IRL, implying that he’ll eventually starve and die. If Dabb was inspired by this, I assume that TFW will follow the same narrative aka killing God for “free will” to triumph.

*****

Hi hello there! Yes, I know this has been sitting in my inbox since April. I’m trying to get better and replying to the insane backlog and picking random messages to reply to (my inbox crept over 900 messages recently and my guilt will not let that stand :’D).

Confession: I have not seen Black Mirror, so I’m just going by what you said about this episode of it. I only have a kind of vague idea what that show is about from a few posts I’ve seen cross my dash, so I can’t really speak to the comparison directly. But I can speak to the implications of what you’re suggesting in terms of the SPN universe situation.

And in a sense, yeah this is kinda along the lines of how I suspect this will be eventually resolved. For the sake of argument, though… Chuck is effectively immortal in the narrative. You can’t trap him in his own game and wait for him to starve to death. Because he won’t.

But also, we’re not talking about a mental construct within reality holding TFW captive like the game situation you described in Black Mirror. TFW doesn’t have “real world” counterparts to the characters we know. They ARE effectively in the real world (to them… *we the audience* know this is fiction, so on that level J2M are their real-world counterparts, in a sense? But I don’t think the show will end with us breaking the in-story universe that badly. I think Dabb really does want us to end the series believing that TFW will continue on, their universe finally saved from Chuck’s eternal manipulation in their lives). 

The situation in Supernatural is a bit different, though. For all he would like to, I don’t think it’s ever been implied that Chuck actively can control the individual members of TFW directly, you know? He can’t “force” them do do things directly, like puppets. What he CAN engineer are circumstances that back them into narrative corners and force them to react. But their reactions are their own. It’s a subtle difference, but a very important one.

Like Ruby told Sam way back in 4.22, in a smaller-scale version of Chuck’s manipulation of the overarching narrative:

Ruby: No. It wasn’t the blood. It was you… and your choices. I just gave you the options, and you chose the right path every time. You didn’t need the feather to fly, you had it in you the whole time, Dumbo! I know it’s hard to see it now… but this is a miracle. So long coming. Everything Azazel did, and Lilith did. Just to get you here. And you were the only one who could do it.

Sure, Dean killed her for it, but Chuck is just… on a cosmological scale, “Chuck” is literally just a manifestation of Creation itself. He’s not a guy, you know? This is where I start to sound like a lunatic, sorry. :P

For all his apparent power, for all the fact he is effectively “God,” he’s just as much a construct as creation itself. He’s the manifestation of Creation attempting to interact with itself, and he’s actively made himself into this personification, created this personality for himself. But it’s not what he is. He’s a sock puppet, and the sock needs unraveling.

Without unraveling all of creation in the process, because they are– at the most basic level– one and the same.

It always brings me back to the s11 finale, where the apparent solution to save the universe was attempting to “kill” the Darkness. But… you can’t actually do that, you know? Not without killing the Light as well. That’s just not how anything works. We always joked that Dean couldn’t kill Death, but then he did… except nothing changed… people kept dying and Billie ascended to become Death. It’s not a “person” but a mantle of power and an embodiment of the universal constant that whatever lives must eventually die. Whatever comes into creation must eventually leave it again. Whatever begins must eventually come to an end. That’s the whole “Alpha and Omega” of the entirety of creation.

And in 11.23, Dean achieved that balance by reuniting Chuck with Amara, or the concept of creation with destruction, light with dark. And he did it with words.

The “Chuck construct” needs to let go of his creation and allow it to truly be free. It’s not that he needs to die, though he might choose to disconnect himself from his creation or dissolve the Chuck Construct in order to allow the universe to truly have free will. It might not tell the story Chuck most wants to see (egotistically his own origin story narrative, played out in every level of the story of Supernatural through his favorite characters and chosen avatars), but human consciousness wants a chance to tell its own stories now.

And Chuck, in story as the avatar for the original creator of Supernatural– i.e. Kripke– being finally disconnected from the universe by the in story avatar of the final showrunner, Dabb– i.e. Billie as Death– I find that’s kind of poetic, yes? Knowing Billie has been plotting something in the background for a very, very long time speaks VOLUMES about how Dabb has seen his own role in bringing the series to an end since he took over as showrunner. Remember, Billie was his character first introduced in 11.02, in what’s functionally the second half of a two-part episode begun by Carver in 11.01. When I say it’s spirals all the way down, I really mean that on every imaginable level. This metas outward into the actual structure of the showrunning and writing here in the real world, too. Dabb… is on another level, tbh. :P

(eta2: not even mentioning that by mid s11 Dabb had effectively taken the reins, and penned the season finale literally called Alpha and Omega in which all of this came to pass in the narrative for the first time around...)

On the side of this with the broken fourth wall, it means being able to hand the narrative over to the fandom, for us to play in that universe in our own imaginations, with a closed canon we can return to again and again to tell our own stories. Fanfic ahoy! With the full blessing of the creators. :’)

And on every level, this is the philosophy Dabb has been putting forth since he took over as showrunner, and I can’t imagine he’d veer from that path now.

ETA: Because I got sidetracked with the Big Cosmology Stuff and forgot the other point I was gonna add here >.>

We did get a smaller-scale scenario where this sort of situation you’re describing played out EXACTLY as you described during s14– in 14.15, with Chip Harrington who’d been directly messing with everyone via the sort of mind control you’re describing in Black mirror keeping people trapped in his “game scenario” of the town of Charming Acres. Sunny had been bound to him by a promise to her dead mother to make sure her father would never be alone. She indulged his game, watching him manipulate and murder people in the name of keeping himself happy, but in the end she freed herself and everyone else from his tyrannical, self-described “god” level control of the town by using that same psychic power she’d inherited from him to trap him in his own version of happiness inside his own mind, where he could be happy without hurting anyone else.

He’s effectively trapped inside his own mind now, unaware of outward reality. In that state, what will actually happen to him? Will he be put on life support machines like Donatello was after Cas stripped his mind away? Will he slowly wither away and die? Will his own psychic power trapped in that reality– which we have been given leave by the show’s own cosmology is the equivalent of his “heaven,” or his spiritual happy place and theoretically his own afterlife (barring the distinct possibility that he’s destined for hell because of his actions and choices during life?). We just don’t know, but his removal from the town didn’t have the sort of negative impact over anyone else that removing the creator from all of creation would…

Chip didn’t (like Chuck) create the town of Charming Acres. He just controlled the people who lived there. Chuck, on the other hand, doesn’t control anyone… he just creates the universe and manipulates it to push people into confronting the choices he wants them to have to grapple with. Again, it’s a subtle distinction, but in the end, I think it’s a very important one.

Okay, now I’m done. :’D

[sillyfudgemonkeys]

Seeing a few anons in the confessions saying how the PTs aren’t inclusive bc they’re outcasts and criminals. But it’s hard for me to believe that bc they kept adding more ppl, making the group too big and standing out more. I was fine up to when Yusuke joined, but once Makoto and the others started joining I was getting put off with more ppl. And it’s weird bc P3 and P4’s groups are big but they managed to work way better in their games than P5, imho.

In all honesty.....I didn’t think they were inclusive, at least barring Yuuki (and they’re so wishy washy about it). Like they have people join them after they get a Persona (or non-persona users like Sae/Sojiro). Despite being weird with Yuuki, they let him run the Phan-site and don’t care too much that he knows their identities. P5MC makes CoOps with lots of people who find out his identity too. Hell, what we see with other students, mostly Anne and the faceless girls, they get along pretty well. And P5MC can (doesn’t mean he’s always, he’ll at least have an option) be pretty nice to randos too (even Makoto who’s being a cactus in their ass he’ll say some things I can’t tell are genuine or sarcastic with her during that time, which is annoying cause I could just straight up insult Anne/Ryu/Yusuke after we’ve become friends for literally no reason). I mean they are pretty crap with being sneaky, to a frustrating degree, so I guess them NOT being inclusive is part of their ongoing carelessness. 

The only time they are pissy is when someone is pissy to them first. Anne’s friendly with Yusuke after clearing up the stalking bit, tho she was ready to throw down before (but MC/Ryu/Mona are still wary for understandable reasons). PT are EXTREMELY prickly with Makoto cause she’s being a straight up little shit (Makoto’s literal first words was insulting the three and of course they are pissy for her for awhile since she 98% of the time she starts of her convos with them on the wrongest of foots). Ryu’s ex-teammates are pissy with him so it’s an antagonistical force for Ryu/MC, but his ex-senpai is nice so Ryu’s nice (hell Ryu is nice to random old ladies, you need to be mean to these kids to get pissy). They don’t get along well with Goro (at times, so wishy washy), and that’s mostly cause of him insulting the PT (hindsight’s 20/20, he knew he was insulting them to their face over it too). They weren’t pleased with Haru (it’s a bit rocky, they are nice but also like “errrrghhh hmmmmm”), partially cause of the whole BS with Mona and she was siding with Mona hard, but they still let her in with open arms before she fully awakened. Hell, Anne’s pretty nice to Mika until Mika started being a little shit too. And they obviously don’t like the antagonists (barring Futaba and Sae) because.....well....they’re usually bad guys. Tbh, yeah, it’s only when someone is perceived to be an antagonistical force to them they get pissy. And not only just being an antagonist to the PT, but a danger to them as people. Yusuke? Possibly will harm Anne if left alone. Makoto? Will screw over their futures because of being PT. TV Station guy? Will probs endanger Anne. Beach Guys? Will probs endanger the girls. Palace bad guys? Will and do hurt people (maybe including the person who is gonna join, or us getting dragged into it for one reason or another). Mementos bad guys? They are hurting people and the PT want to stop them (so this isn’t, usually...cause....Futaba is connected, connected to our cast but I figure I’d include that outlier in what I was saying). That’s usually who they are outright pissy with. Yuuki isn’t really getting a pissy end of the stick, it just seems more like a weird frienship, he’s included in enough stuff (to the point it’s weird he’s just.....not in more of their PT related work....whatever game). The PT are pretty reactionary. If you start off being mean, they aren’t gonna be happy back, and like.......can you blame them? 

Tbh when Yusuke was announced that’s when I was getting wary, I thought the party might’ve been too big (esp for people who need to keep a low profile). I figured one other person would join (besides Goro, who I figured was a shoe-in for a temp position). So yeah, imagine me sitting there having a heart attack when 3 new characters go announced after Yusuke. 

As for P3/4.....they are structured differently, they aren’t perfect, but they get away with minimal damage. P3 has individual arcs for everyone, and while they do their own thing they bleed and blend well into each other. The only issue is Fuuka (and Koro, but c’mon it’s a dog). Their arcs.....are....pretty nonexistent tbh compared to other’s,  and you don’t really notice cause of all the other stuff going on. I mean P3 has the biggest cast iirc, and that’s ok (they juggle pretty well, tho they do get rid of one of their members so that helps wrap of their short arc 8U), and you don’t really notice cause of all the other stuff going on. P4 is different, their personal arcs start with each new dungeon, and continue on into their SLs, but in the main story they develop as a group. And it works great! No one feels left behind or useless (if we look at just the murder mystery part, Kanji is the most useless hands down, Rise and Teddie would be right behind but their Persona ability and/or TV World knowledge make them useful outside of the ‘solve the murder’ parts.....but no one complains cause they still have a presence in the main story in other ways and that’s ok! and this is coming from someone who hates Kanji and I won’t even complain about his lack of help with solving case, because P4 has a lot of other stuff going on with the group). They all still try and work together, even if they only get only an inch closer to the truth, it feels like everyone tried to contribute. (there’s also the team building they did all the time). Everyone evolved together it felt like. P5? Tries to utilize P4′s formula without what P4 did to make it work. P5 probably would’ve worked better with P3′s individual arcs but.....they were already struggling with making characters be useful in the main story as it was (which wouldn’t have been that hard but.....Atlus made it hard somehow!) so that...would’ve probably made it more apparent to the Fuuka’s of the group. 

It also helped that P3/4 introduced latter characters earlier, esp Naoto. She appears in the beginning of the game and has a presence before joining. I mean people still wish there was more of her, and I don’t blame them. But it seems Atlus....didn’t exactly hear that. They heard “Oh you want another Naoto-late character but done worse? Ok can do!” And it’s like “nooooooooooooo! Haru! ;w;” and yeah....

(sorry typing fast cause I gotta go after this, hope the answer isn’t too messy @.@)