#there is symbolic importance there and the hightowers /will/ play some part in the last two books

[lemonhemlock]

so, i'm going through your anti team black tag and living my best life, but one post in particular that you made got me thinking.

“george made damn sure rhaenyra’s bloodline sat on the throne at the end bc, if the hightowers won, house targaryen would have been reformed, and he couldn’t kill them all off at the end of the main series”

i'm pretty sure this might've just been a joke, but it makes me curious. do you think something like a targaryen reformation would be possible, hypothetically speaking? i certainly wouldn't mind it in a "greens win" AU scenario, but that's just me. i wanna know if anyone else sees potential in this. 💚💚💚

Hello, yes, this was mostly a joke, as it happens. 😅 (anon is referring to this post) To introduce another lengthy parenthesis, I remember at the time that some of the reactions to that post were in the range for "why doesn't anyone understand that the Hightowers are also feudal lords vying for their own interests and not some great reformists out to save Westeros", which... Listen. 😄 To put equitably, this fandom has a considerable issue with knowing when to level criticism and when to just treat banter as lighthearted horsing around and not take it too seriously. Something which even I'm not exempt from, I don't think. 🤷‍♀️

So, in the interest of making a meme, that post was kind of half-true in that it simplified a more nuanced concept (that was never an avenue that the author decided to explore anyway) for the sake of humour. I have, in the past, detailed my thoughts on House Hightower and what I think is their role in the wider narrative. This is based on the information we have on them presently. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. Who knows, maybe Lord Leyton and Melara plan on blowing Oldtown up for shits and giggles. We don't have to guess everything correctly - another aspect this community struggles with in their fandom wars and obsession with having the most correct, morally pure take.

Regardless, yes, the Hightowers obviously are a privileged family at the top of the social food chain, benefitting from the exploitation awarded by feudalism - a political-economic system based on vast inequality. Therefore, any type of reform they might be willing to undertake will be limited and not really something that significantly changes the status-quo. Just like the beloved, fan-favourite, and mostly confirmed "winners" - the Starks. A third element that our fandom has trouble accepting is the concept of incremental change. I feel like it would basically be a truism to point out that incremental change has been the most reliable vector of socio-economic evolution throughout human history. So, bad news for them, I suppose, but any superficial study of history will reveal that feudalism hardly collapsed overnight. Which leads us back to the idea that any small change, no matter how limited, does matter in the long run, because, as time passes, it will be compounded with another small change and so on.

Anyway, coming back to the question. Would Targaryen reformation be possible? Certainly! GRRM could have made up any story he wanted. Anything is possible if you plan for it and it makes sense within your worldbuilding. As it stands, the Targaryens are foreigners with a questionable culture, hailing from a land that used to engage in practices that even the feudal Westerosi found backwards, distasteful, barbaric or immoral: slavery, human sacrifice, incest, great feats of violence such as pillaging and conquering neighbouring lands for the sake of feeding their population to their volcano gods etc. The Targaryens also have fire-breathing monsters that, while not exactly enough all the time to prevent any rebellions from happening, are weapons that no one else has access to and that can cause a great deal of damage that no one else can replicate.

So, in order to "reform" and integrate, they would need to renounce all that. They would need to do it the traditional way. They do some of the work, but never go all the way. They accept the main religion of the land, but they don't let go of inter-marrying, because they don't want to lose their access to dragons. There are attempts to integrate, but, by the time of the events of the main series, they have returned to incest. Funnily enough, Aegon V plays a role in both - he marries outside of the family and has no dragons left, but his succeeding son and daughter marry each other and, eventually, Aegon decides that bringing back dragons is not such a bad idea after all. I do think that the symbolic weight of Daenerys having both her parents and her grandparents as brother-sister sets is laying the "dragon blood" metaphor thick - and that it holds more magical weight than any mathematical calculation of her actual watered-down Targaryen DNA.

In any such scenario where GRRM decided to go down a Targaryen reformation path, IMO it would have been thematically-relevant to ease into it via a marriage alliance with one of the oldest families in Westeros - a well-respected, rich house that also has close links to both the only centre of higher education and the main religious organization in the land. Hence the meme. :) But it doesn't last and the Targaryens go back to their dastardly ways eventually, that's the point of them in the story, because the author chose it to be the point.

[starksinthenorth]

The Winds of Winter Outline

No one asked for this but I don’t have the time to write my full predictions for The Winds of Winter as a fanfic so here is a potential outline. Some plots that I care or know less about probably have more detail plots (ex: Asha and Theon at Winterfell). There are also some chapters I can imagine being separate that could easily be combined (ex: Sansa and the Tourney of the Winged Knights, Sam’s training). 

This is probably 10-15 chapters too long. It might be a little out of order, but this is generally how I imagine things might go.

POV deaths: Barristan, Jon Connington, Aeron, Areo, Victarion

Prologue: Ser Forley Preston, the attack by Lady Stoneheart on Jeyne Westerling and Edmure’s journey to the Westerlands

Barristan I: Meereen, preparing for battle (already released)

Theon I: Stannis’s Northern Camp, sees meetings and advises Stannis, is marked for death (already released)

Dany I: Great Grass Sea, on road with the Dothraki

Sansa I/Alayne I: preparing for Tourney of the Winged Knights (already released)

Jaime I: Riverlands, journey to the Red Wedding 2.0 with Brienne

Arya I/Mercy: learning to join the play scene and killing Raff the Sweetling (already released)

Aeron I: Waters off the Reach, prepping for Euron’s attack (already released)

Theon II: Stannis’s Northern Camp, brought to be executed beneath a weirwood, hears Bran talking about tunnels underneath Winterfell and uses the information to bargain for his freedom

Arianne I: Dorne/Stormlands, heading to meet Aegon (already published)

Asha I: Stannis’s Northern Camp, attack by Ramsey’s people and Stannis winning

Victarion I: Meereen, preparing for battle (already published)

Tyrion I: Meereen, pre-battle, sees the Iron Fleet on the horizon (already published)

Dany II: Vaes Dothrak, joining Dosh Khaleen and being hailed as the Stallion Who Mounts The World

Barristan II: Meereen, the battle (already released)

Tyrion II: Meereen, pre-battle/battle (already published)

Victarion II: Meereen, during the battle

Tyrion III: Meereen, potentially heat of the battle

Victarion III: Meereen, blowing dragon horn and sending at least one of them (probably Rhaegal) towards Westeros, dies

Barristan III: Meereen, more of the battle and winning it until Rhaegal flies away and he retreats into the city (mildly doubtful of this chapter, tbd)

Davos I: Skaagos, arriving, gaining their trust

Brienne I: Riverlands, journey to the Red Wedding 2.0 with Jaime and some of the Brotherhood without Banners

Cersei I: King’s Landing, Kevan is dead, pretrial stress/anxiety, Trial (she wins)

Dany III: Somewhere in Essos, Journeying to Meereen

Theon III: Winterfell, Battle of Ice and leading the people into the tunnels

Asha II: Winterfell, Battle of Ice aftermath, bonding with Mormont ladies, potential arrival of the sellswords from Braavos

Jon I: the Wall/Gift, in Ghost’s brain

Tyrion IV: Meereen, post-battle capture or getting involved with Barristan in the rule of the city

Barristan IV: Meereen, finds Shavepate taking over the city, killing Hizdahr and Dany’s cupbearers, dies

Areo I: Dorne, chasing Darkstar

Arya II: The Little Lost Girl - hears about “Arya Stark in Braavos,” (Jeyne Poole) and “dead Jon Snow” leaves the Faceless Men (this may be two chapters, three max).

Sansa II/Alayne II: the Vale, Gates of the Moon, the Tourney of the Winged Knights

Dany IV: Meereen, definitive ending to the Siege of Meereen, mourning Barristan, getting Ironborn support, leaving the city

Sansa III/Alayne III: the Vale, Gates of the Moon, post-or-during-Tourney, ends with Sweetrobin’s death

Arya III: journey from Braavos and arrival in the Saltpans

Melisandre I: the Wall, post-Jon death’s chaos and noticing him in Ghost, “Arya Stark” arrives at the wall then heads to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea to go to Braavos

Bran I: Beyond-the-Wall, some kind of training and visions of Jon and the Others

Tyrion V: Meereen or the dragonroads, Meeting Dany, potentially narrator for some of her events and battles

Sansa IV/Alayne IV: the Vale, chaos post-Robert’s death, she’s kidnapped

Arya IV: Riverlands, Inn at the Crossroads, unites with Gendry

Arianne II: Stormlands, heading to meet Aegon

Sansa V/Alayne V: rescued by maybe Harry, reveal of who she is

Jaime II: Riverlands, Red Wedding 2.0 and forced to fight Brienne

Brienne II: Riverlands, Red Wedding 2.0 aftermath after running away from the Brotherhood

Tyrion VI: Dragon Roads, general advising Dany and gaining her trust, potentially an attempt on his life for Cersei that spreads news he’s dead (so Sansa can get married without that sticky plot point)

Sansa VI: Wedding, potentially poison reveal and blame on Littlefinger

Cersei II: King’s Landing, Tyene Sand is up to some mischief as her Septa companion, dealing with Mace Tyrell naming himself Hand of the King, potentially Myrcella arriving back in King’s Landing, Mace goes to Storm’s End to deal with Aegon

Arianne III: Stormlands, meet Aegon + siege of Storm’s End

Jon Connington I: Stormlands/Crownlands, wary of Arianne and the Dornish

Arianne IV: Stormlands, plans / agreement to marry Aegon after siege is ended

Arya V: Riverlands, Somewhere, Gets Nymeria’s Wolfpack (maybe near Harrenhal? I feel like one of the Starklings end up back there at some point)

Cersei III: King’s Landing, scheming, trying to get back in charge, Nymeria chaos on the small council

Asha III: Witnessing Winterfell, politics of the North, Theon gets to live for identifying a living non-Arya Stark child

Davos II: Skaagos, finding Rickon, convincing Osha to take him to Winterfell and his people as the last remaining Stark

Sansa VII: gets some kind of news (maybe Stannis claiming the North and looking for Lord of Winterfell), head to Gulltown to launch North

Arianne V: Stormlands/Crownlands, wedding or maybe POV for the Second Sack of King’s Landing (little later if its that second option)

Areo II: Dorne, chasing Darkstar, something at the Tower of Joy(?)

Melisandre II: the Wall, raising Jon from the dead

Dany V: Volantis, conquest of the city and freeing of the city, being hailed and crowned as Azor Ahai

Arya VI: Riverlands, Around Riverrun, Meets (and Kills) Lady Stoneheart

Cersei IV: King’s Landing, siege by Aegon and co.

Jon Connington II: King’s Landing, sack of King’s Landing, probably orders a mass slaughter when the bells are rung in celebration of Aegon’s coming even though they claimed the city peacefully

Cersei V: King’s Landing, siege part ii, Tommen’s death and fleeing King’s Landing

Bran II: Beyond-the-Wall, “Hold the Door” attack by the others

Davos III: Skaagos/Sea off Skaagos, journeying to White Harbor, see things (wights) moving in the water

Sam I: Oldtown, learning things and preparing for the soon attack, sending Gilly and Little Sam to Horn Hill, realizing important info about Wall, Jon, or Dragons

Dany VI: Roads of Essos, gets notice about Aegon in Westeros, turns towards Pentos

Sansa VIII: Maybe lands in White Harbor

Arya VII: Riverlands, Around Riverrun, somehow the 10/12 yo takes control of the Brotherhood without Banners and convinces them to follow her to end the remaining Freys at the Twins and free the Northerners there; potentially uses the reclamation of Riverrun to rally the Riverlords and ladies to her side (using friendship with Lady of Acorn Hall)

Bran III: Beyond-the-Wall, retreat south, visions

Cersei VI: Riverlands, running from chaos in the city

Jon Connington III: King’s Landing, feeling guilty when there are reports of greyscale in the city

Dany VII: Pentos, destruction of

Arianne VI: King’s Landing, crowned, marries Aegon if not yet, catches him with Elia Sand, maybe breakout of greyscale in his people

Jon II: the Wall, arisen from death, punishing those who did him wrong, someone tells him that “Arya Stark was at the wall,” he goes to follow her to Braavos 

Sam II: Oldtown, learning things and preparing for the soon attack, seeing Ironborn on the horizon

Aeron II: Oldtown, siege and bearing witness to Euron’s attack

Sam III: Oldtown, the Ironborn attack, seeing Euron’s Monsters of the Deep (Eldritch Apocalypse), escaping

Dany VIII: Pentos, giving it to the Tattered Prince and burning Illyrio Mopatis alive for betraying her, ends with her symbolically turning west

Areo III: Dorne, encountering Darkstar and dying

Sam IV: Horn Hill, after fleeing Oldtown, also his father may be there, sent by Cersei, sends out the ravens to warn Westeros of the threat of the Eldritch Monsters, heading North to help at the wall

Arya VIII: Riverlands, Around the Twins, claims the Twins, gets news of Stannis claiming Winterfell and trying to name a Lord of Winterfell, heads North with support of the Riverlands to claim her birthright as Lady of Winterfell since she thinks she’s the last Stark

Cersei VII: Casterly Rock, establish a court in exile and crowning Queen Myrcella

Davos IV: White Harbor, giving Manderly his King

Jon Connington IV: King’s Landing, dragon attack and death in wildfire

Jon III: Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, abandons his watch, someone tells him “Arya” had really pretty brown eyes, he realizes its not his little sister and determines to head “somewhere warm” or else somewhere South (potentially Winterfell - I go back and forth on if he’ll end up at the Tower of Joy or Dragonstone himself)

Sansa VIX: go to Stannis/fly banner over Winterfell, potential arrival/tension with Rickon and Davos and death of Littlefinger if he’s not dead yet

Brienne III: Riverlands, gets news Sansa is heading North / married in the Vale and that Tommen is dead; parts with Jaime - him for Cersei and Myrcella and her for Sansa

Dany IX: Dragonstone, her homecoming and arrival and crowning

Aeron III: Oldtown, going to the top of the Hightower and watching Euron blow his horn, dying

Melisandre III: the Wall, invasion of the Night and Others

Bran IV: the Wall, it falls

[yeniayofnymeria]

Dance of Dragons and Players

Will be happened second DoD? Short answer; yes.

-GRRM

Hi, short question. Will we find out more about the Dance of the Dragons in future books?

The first dance or the second?

The second will be the subject of a book. The first will be mentioned from time to time, I'm sure. - SSM

-Book

“ Dragons ?” said her mother. “Teora, don’t be mad." “I’m not. They’re coming.” “How could you possibly know that?” her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. “One of your little dreams?” Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died.” (TWoW, Arianne)

History repeats itself and GRRM knows it as a history lover. That's why he does the same in his books from time to time. Events can be based on the same root cause and similar points, but each has specific conditions and roles in itself.

Therefore, it will not be correct to search for one-on-one similarity while distributing the roles of the second dance that will take place(afterall GRRM will not copy and paste) but still, I want to talk to you about this.

According to you, which players of the second DoD can match the players of the first? How will the sides be separated? Greens and Blacks or something else? Hints from books? Reasons?

I'll start first. In my opinion, not all players match, but these are the ones I think match.(Some characters fit more than one person.)

Criston Cole - Jorah Mormont

Otto Hightower - Jon Conn. and Doran Martell

Corlys Velaryon - Tyrion Lannister

Dalton Greyjoy - Victarion Greyjoy

Larys Strong - Varys (Almost same name :D )

Erryk Cargyll and Arryk Cargyll: Well, these are twins Quenn/King's Guard, one was on Rae's side and the other on Aegon. In fact, they don't have a very important role, but a "tragic" sibling relationship. There are two separate rumors that they love and hate each other. These two brothers reminded me of Jaime and Tyrion; love and hate each other and i believe they will be two different sides in the first place (later, will change probably).

Also in books, Olenna Tyrell's has twins guards, their name are Erryk and Arryk too but I can not see them a role in this war.(for now)

Addam and Alyn Valeryon - Aurane Waters

Daemon Targaryen - Euron Greyjoy

The Shepherd- High Sparrow. In fact, the current High Sparrow also looks like the Sparrow in the time of Maegor and Aenys. We can say he is the mix of all of them.

This is the role distribution for me for now. Let's come to the leading roles.

How are the sides separated? A name, a color, a coat of arms ...

In fact, before the first Dance, divisions began in the form of the Rhaenyra party and the Alicent party, but then they were divided into blacks and greens because of the clothes they wore in a tournament.

No doubt there is no tournament. For the Dance of the Dragons, it is right to look at the colors of the dragons.

Rhaegal - Green (Jon)

Drogon - Black (Dany)

Viserion- White (Aegon?)

The first dance was between two sides, so it might be thought that the second dance would be the same. Readers often assume this way. Could be true. But we have three dragons and three colors. Also three of our throne candidates; Jon, Dany, Aegon.

If the dance is between the two sides, we will wait for them to separate as blacks and greens. If it will be experienced among three sides, it will be necessary to add whites.

Even Tyrion's eyes are a sign of this; green and black. He will play both sides like Moqorro's said.

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

"Snarling? An amiable fellow like me?" Tyrion was almost flattered.

And also he has dream. It is a sign too for Dance 2, i believe.

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping.

It should not be forgotten that Tyrion is Jon's friend, and he has relatives with Stark as he is married to Sansa. (A bitter marriage, but ultimately a marriage.)

Some readers think that Jon cannot be part of this Dance because he is not interested sit the iron throne. I think we're looking at it from the wrong place. The sole aim and sole focus of this war will not be the throne itself. There are too many variable factors in the Second Dance that are not in the first.

What are those?

Starks and Targaryens hate the Lannisters, Targanyens (Dany) hate the Starks, Lannisters and Baratheons. Dany wants revenge. Lannisters cannot easily approach anyone this time, everyone hates them. But Tyreller wants to have power. Marg's being a queen means that Tyrels have power. So for now, there is an alliance between these two households. (Lannister-Tyrell) An probably there is this Blackfyre issue. There are the Others beyond the North. The battle of Ice and Fire will take place. Jon doesn't have zero ambition, as in the show. We know that he will experience a serious change after his resurrection. He will become a darker character. Anyway, even Arya can have an influence on Jon, as she turns into a vengeful spirit. (My “the champion” theory)

This dance will most likely be in the last book. In the last book, it is not possible to commit both the Dance and the Others war at the same time. This always makes me think. So I thought GRRM could nest these two battles.

As a result, Jon will be drawn into this war, even if he doesn't want to. Some things are inevitable, especially after deciphering his true identity. So, if the parties are going to be greens and blacks ... And if the colors of the dragons decide ... Then it seems inevitable that Jon is the leader of the greens.

If Aegon is truly a Blackfyre, Jon is the prince's only child. Is it wrong to wait for Jon to ride the dragon named after his father?

( I can't imagine Jon riding Viserion even if Aegon is the real Targaryen. Viserion name? Really? Püfff If the name of the white dragon was Rhaegal, okay but not. Actually, there is this too. If GRRM would not make Jon the leader of the greens, why he did call the green dragon as Rhaegal ? The white dragon would have given this name. Or he would have given the white dragon a more appropriate name. Since the dragon is white, we would think that Jon would ride this dragon. White-headed sword, white wolf arm and white wolf. It makes sense. But the green one was called Rhaegal and the white one was called Viserion. We need to think about that. )

One of the reasons I think the dance's main sides will be Jon and Dany is this.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

Jonerys fans believe this is a FS for "love". No it is not. First of all, the symbol of love is red rose, not blue rose. The blue rose symbolizes Lyanna and Jon. Another name for the blue rose is the snow blue flower. This flower is the symbol of the north and Winterfell. The sweet smell was presented as a death sign in this books many times.

Example:

He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. (Ser Darry's moment of death.)

A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound, so thick it almost choked her. The leaves were crusted with blood and pus, Drogo's breast black and glistening with corruption. (Drogo dies)

There was a smell of death about that room; a heavy smell, sweet and foul, clinging. (Cat's father's room)

Another important detail is that Undying ones showed her important things. The things and people threatening her, her enemies ... They tell her to be careful. In summary, Jon is a "death" threat to Dany, directly or indirectly. Ever since I noticed this detail, I waited for Jon to cause her death. I don't need to tell you the result. :D Of course I was waiting in the books ...

In order for this to happen, these two have to be enemies; greens and blacks.

Well, if there is a third side? Then it is Aegon. Whites. Blackfyre. Tyrion had a relationship with all three dragons. (He will meet Dany.) Moqorro actually counted all kinds of dragons.

3 number is important for Targaryens. Aerys had 3 living children, Jon is third child. Dragon has 3 heads. There are 3 dragons. Dany's prophecies and this Moqorro's dragon prophecies: old and young, true and false, bright and dark.

Generally, we thought that every word in a sentence describes a person, but so many dragons should not be expected. Besides dragon has 3 heads :D

Old-Young is 1 person.

True- False is 1 person.

Bright-Dark is 1 person.

All dragons are fighting, and Tyrion is in the middle of this war and is stuck in between them.

The white cyvasse dragon ended up at Tyrion's feet. He scooped it off the carpet and wiped it on his sleeve, but some of the Yunkish blood had collected in the fine grooves of the carving, so the pale wood seemed veined with red... He tossed the bloody dragon in the air, caught it, grinned.

This is an interesting detail. Perhaps the white dragon (Aegon) would die first in this war. If the dance is going to die between 2 sides (greens-blacks) then Viseron will probably never come to the west. (If this is a FS for Viserion. Viserion was the dragon that was frequently seen in this pov and took action. 6th book.)

What do you think?

[longforgottenunofficial]

Here Comes the...Never Mind, She’s Here: Constance and the Hatchet Man

Updated March 2015

(photo: Jeff Fillmore)

Like I said last time, the Constance addition is an ambitious attempt to expand the Mansion's backstory and solidify it.  The attic bride now has a name (Constance Hatchaway) and a definite story.  She's a "black widow" bride, marrying five men in succession (or at least five) and beheading each on their wedding night (Sigmund Freud, call your office).  Each man is more wealthy than the last, and Connie's accumulating fortune is symbolized by the addition of a new string of pearls around her neck in each successive wedding portrait.  Her junk now clogs the attic.  Mostly wedding gifts.  There are some cute items amidst the clutter, like this porcelain couple with the man fallen and with his head broken off.

Here's the grim tally:

1869:  Ambrose Harper

1872:  Frank Banks

1874:  The Marquis de Doom

1875:  Reginald Caine

1877:  George Hightower

There are official mini-bio's for each man (cf. Surrell 2nd ed., p. 84); the most interesting fact is that George is expressly said to be a former owner of the house, implying that Connie inherited it.  Evidently, before it became a retirement home for ghosts, the Haunted Mansion was Connie's residence.  As if to emphasize the point, the widow portrait in the stretching room is now officially recognized as a portrait of Constance.  The resemblance between it and the last wedding portrait in the attic is obvious.

Objection, your honor:  The Constance ghost is clearly still a young woman, while the stretch-room widow was just as clearly a senior citizen before she died.  In addition, isn't the plot simply too far-fetched?  You're saying there were five identical and sensational murders on Connie's successive wedding nights, and no one caught on?  Were the latter suitors such dolts?  And were the police brain dead?  There are limits to our suspension of disbelief. I'm no fan of the Connie thing, but I will say that these objections hold no water.  The notion that ghosts appear as they appeared at the time of their death is not the only popular notion out there.  There is also the idea that ghosts haunt because there is unfinished earthly business that must be resolved before they can "cross over," and perhaps they appear as they appeared at the time of that unfinished business, which may have occurred well before death.  In Connie's case, it's an unavenged murder spree from her youth. That too is a concept not unknown to ghost lore:

From The Reader magazine, 1904 (hat tip Craig C.)

Interestingly enough, Ken Anderson invokes this ghost theory in one of his 1957 scripts: "... our house had a tragic and bloody history of unlucky owners who died sudden and violent deaths, which resulted in their unhappy ghosts remaining behind to fulfill the uncompleted missions of their lives." As for the preposterousness of the plot, it all becomes plausible when we throw money into the equation.  Bribe the police, bribe the judges, remove any public record of the crime or its investigation, falsify death certificates, and presto: a clean slate for the next victim.  Sure, she would have needed a good missing-and-presumed-dead story the first time (a teary-eyed Constance describes how Ambrose fell into the river on their honeymoon), and the second time would have demanded a cop or judge who could be bought pretty cheap (perhaps she used, er, other assets as well?), but after that she probably had enough wealth piling up to cover her tracks easily.  As for how suitor #4 or #5 could be foolish enough to marry a widow whose previous husbands managed to disappear so quickly after the wedding, well...she's got a pretty face, see, and a certain wiggly-wag.... Objections overruled. How did they cook up such an idea in the first place?  To begin, mad female ax murderers are nothing new on the radar screen of public cultural consciousness.  Lizzie Borden and all that.

Closer to home, once again we find an interesting changing-portrait concept in the huge pile of unused material left behind by Marc Davis.  He came up with a macabre version of a famous portrait by Thomas Gainsborough.  So popular was "The Honourable Mrs. Graham" in its day that Gainsborough did several versions of it, including an etching:

It doesn't take much imagination to see inspiration for Constance in Davis's spoof:

(Artwork ©Disney.  Animated gif by Captain Halfbeard) Another inspiration for Constance hidden in the WDI vaults is the long-forgotten "Mr. Meaker," a character concept unknown until the recent discovery of a crude notebook sketch by Dick Irvine (VP of Design at WDI from '52—'73) . . .

. . . and this accompanying description:  "Mr. Meaker was a very simple man who lost each of his five wives in a very tragic manner.  They died in bed—apparently of natural causes.  Mr. Meaker's only compensation was that his wives were all insured.  He smothered them with affection." Here the tour guide throws a switch and the canopy of a nearby bed descends.  The tour guide continues:  "One night he was testing the mechanism while his cat was sleeping on the bed.  When Mr. Meaker found out that he had killed his pet, he was heartbroken.  He hanged himself." It's not hard to see a male version of Constance in certain details of this outline.  It's curious that he hanged himself, because if the HM's hanging man was already considered the Ghost Host at this point (and he probably was), then this backstory identifies the Ghost Host with Mr. Meaker.  This opens up a can of interesting worms, but we'll tackle that one a little further down.  (Actually, I've never tackled a worm and would decline any invitation so to do.  The unfair weight advantage, for one thing, would take all the joy out of it for me.) One of the most important factors shaping the creation of Constance, however, was inspiration drawn right from the existing ride.  I have no doubt whatsoever that the Imagineers involved would respond to the criticism of Constance as an unwanted intrusion by pointing out that, on the contrary, they are zealous traditionalists with the highest possible respect for what the original Imagineers created.  In expanding the backstory, they definitely wanted their addition to stay true to what was already there. And they have a good case, so far as it goes. First, Connie is a throwback to the original, scarier bride, skipping over and ignoring the forlorn 1995-2006 models in favor of their darker predecessors.   On our own analysis, the original attic scene gave you just enough clues to conclude that the bride killed her groom via decapitation.  The Hat Box Ghost goes topless to the tune of her lub dub, lub dub, remember? Secondly, the Constance narrative seizes on the two items from the original HM that indicate a history prior to the "retirement home" story and it weaves the two together into a single story, so you could argue that the Connie story tidies things up a bit.  I'm talking about (1) the Ghost Host's ambiguous tie to the house on the one hand (actually, it's his neck, but let that slide), and (2) the attic's tale of some kind of nuptial homicide on the other.  Everything else in the HM is part of the three-act play taking place on the stage of "this ghostly retreat." The Ghost Host connection is largely unspecified at this point, but there is every indication that it is waiting in the wings, ready to be rolled out as time and funds permit.  That's right, people, there is another shoe waiting to drop.  There are more chapters to the Constance saga up WDI's sleeve, so you had better get used to her.  If her role is destined to change at all, it is only in order to expand it further.  Do I have an inside line on this undisclosed sequel?  Nope, but I can tell you that it will involve a character sometimes called the "Hatchet Man." The Hatchet Man A creepy portrait of a man with a noose around his neck and a hatchet in his hand has been in the DL Corridor of Doors since the place opened.

Do not doubt the word of your blog administrator.  Here is Hatch in a rare 1969 photo:

The Orlando HM has had Hatch since the day it opened, but as one of the "Sinister 11" portraits rather than in the Corridor of Doors:

This guy is the Ghost Host.  First, the concept art for this character reportedly identifies him explicitly as the "Ghost Host," and second, the hanging corpse in the stretching gallery is scrupulously dressed so as to match the Hatchet Man, and of course the hanging man is the GH ("there's always my way").  This is a good example of WDI overkill for the sake of "making it real," since guests can't possibly see this.

Oh, and incidentally, the Hatchet Man is one of those rare cases where you can point your finger directly at a piece of outside art that inspired it.  Davis modeled him on "The Old Witch" from Tales From the Crypt comic books.  Betcha didn't know that.  Sheesh, Marc, this one isn't even subtle.

There are at least three indications that WDI is preparing to raise the profile of this character considerably.  First, his face is showing up elsewhere.  Reportedly, when the Constance attic makeover took place at DL, plans included alterations to the Séance circle as well.  The faces of Connie's husbands would be seen materializing around the perimeter, or something like that.  It didn't happen.  Either the report was false, or this part of the project was postponed for one reason or another (funding? technical feasibility? manpower? scheduling?).  We did get a new effect in there, however, as the wandering Ectoplasm Ball began making faces at us.  There were more than one, but one of them was Hatch:

Why him?  Secondly, some guys from WDI just showed up one day and put a Hatchet Man portrait in the Corridor of Doors at the WDW Mansion.  According to my sources, it was a complete surprise to the Florida folk.  Bam.  Now Orlando has a portrait similar to the one at DL.  Hatch was already represented there as one of the "Sinister 11," so why this one as well?  Not only that, but a dimension has been added to his character.  Previously, you could say that his hatchet was simply the implement by which he cut his ties to the house.  But now, he's wielding it as a frightening weapon—note the shadow.

Thirdly—and this one is more subtle—WDI has apparently adopted a zero-tolerance policy toward any identification of the Ghost Host with any other character, specifically, a certain Master Gracey.  Among Mansion fans there's a very popular belief that the character in the following painting is named "Master Gracey" and that he is the Ghost Host.  Neither of these is official; it's purely fan-generated Mansion lore.

For years WDI has looked upon this with a certain bemused tolerance, and in fact the name "Master Gracey" has risen to the level of, I dunno, what you might call semi-official sanction.  But any suggestion that he is the Ghost Host has been ruthlessly suppressed in recent years.  When they put up a construction sign at the WDW Mansion during the massive refurb of 2007 that identified the Ghost Host as "Master Gracey"—dude, somebody got a stern email from On High, because they had to go to the trouble and expense of fixing the sign to eliminate this boo-boo.  We're talking about a temporary construction sign here.

Now you see it...now you don't.

(photos by Pickwickgrl) Sheesh, that's tight.  "Who told them to change it?"  "Top men."  "Yes, but who?"  "TOP.  MEN."

And consider this dismaying observation.  Jason Surrell had a loosey-goosey attitude about this whole business in his first edition (2003) of The Haunted Mansion: From the Magic Kingdom to the Movies.  Speaking of the WDW Mansion, Surrell says: "As guests enter the Foyer, their attention is drawn to a formal portrait of the master of the house hanging on the wall above the fireplace.  The master is the Ghost Host himself, or Master Gracey, if you go by the name on one of the tombstones in the family plot, although that is not the official story."

But between that edition and the second edition (2009), some Top Men evidently had a little clarification session with Mr. S. "As guests enter the Foyer, their attention is drawn to a formal portrait of the master of the house hanging on the wall above the fireplace.  Contrary to another popular theory that has made the rounds over the years, the Ghost Host is not the master of the house—Gracey or otherwise—but merely one of 999 happy haunts."

And Jason—no fool he—gets to keep both kneecaps.

The most obvious reason for the crackdown is that the real Ghost Host is going to make a more formal entrance sometime in the future, and he's the sinister-looking Hatchet Man, not some dandy named "Master Gracey."  How all this will tie into the Constance saga is unknown at this point, but they do make a charming couple with their mutual hatchet fetish, and I find it curious that a previous concept for the Ghost Host (Mr. Meaker) is in some ways a mirror-reflection of the future bride Constance, although I'm probably better advised to put that one down to coincidence.

One way or another, it appears that WDI is preparing to tie together the Ghost Host and the attic bride in a single backstory that tells the history of the HM before it became a ghostly retreat for wandering spirits from all over the world. UPDATE (March 2015) It's been several years now, and the second shoe has yet to drop. It may never. You see, the man I am sure was behind the implementation of this backstory is no longer in the position to do so. He's transferred to somewhere else in WDI now, and so far there is no evidence that the new boss is interested in developing the master plan of the old boss. Alas, the glowing face effect in the Séance Circle has fallen into neglect and disrepair, and merchandise identifying the Ghost Host with "Master Gracey" appeared on the shelves in conjunction with the Mansion's 45th anniversary. It's true that Merchandising tends to do its own thing and thumb its ignorant nose at WDI, but I'm pretty sure the previous guy would have put the kibosh on such heretical items. 

Originally Posted: Saturday, June 5, 2010 Original Link: [x]