#think its only been Him and Ren Ive had do that in main comics. who knows

[fitzs-space]

Lets play mermaids they said, it'd be FUN they said

I tried to finish this for may, its here now. happy pride gay people

transcript down there

Gem: Are you guys even able to breathe in water like this?

Etho: No, it’s really just aesthetics,

Etho: but there’s enough conduits around here, so it’s safe enough- Grian: ACHHHJJHJHUUUHIUFUCK

[grian witnessed the horrors]

[miss-musings]

Some wild or not-so-wild predictions about Episode IX (with some TLJ meta/analysis)

So, for the record, these crazy-ass wild predictions (or maybe not so wild???) are based on: 1) evidence of themes, motifs, character development and story arcs from TFA and TLJ; 2) overall story arcs and whatnot from both the Prequel Trilogy and the OrigTrig; 3) other media (TV shows) within the Star Wars universe; 4) other media outside of Star Wars that I feel like share some thematic/character parallels and that I know are very popular among modern audiences; and 5) fan metas that tie into all of this.

So, in no particular order and with plenty of art to break up the text…

And in case this isn’t going to be obvious… SPOILERS FOR THE LAST JEDI!!!

PREDICTION ONE: The Title

Across the 8 Star Wars films we have three possibilities for the way titles are worded: A/The (Adjective) (Noun) ; (Noun) with a verb somewhere in the phrase; (Noun) of the (Noun). So far in this new trilogy, we’ve had the first two. But we haven’t had (Noun) of the (Noun) yet. This has been the case with the third installments of each trilogy: Revenge of the Sith (III) and Return of the Jedi (IV).

I imagine IX will fit this pattern; and, while I doubt it will have “Jedi” or “Sith” in it, I wouldn’t be surprised if it had the word “Balance” in it. Like “Balance of the Force” or something, except that I imagine they might be kind of nervous about using “Force” again in a title so soon, considering they have The Force Awakens and another property The Forces of Destiny.

But, I’d bet money “Balance” is in the title. Maybe not a lot of money. Like $5 or something, but still. I’ll bet money on it. Maybe… “Power of the Balance.” Because Balance has very much been a recurring theme/motif in this trilogy, and I’m 100% certain we’re going there (which we’ll get into more below).

PREDICTION TWO: Character Dynamics

Okay, so for a more general observation of the Core Three Characters of each of our trilogies – Anakin/Obi-Wan/Padme ; Luke/Han/Leia – we had a romantic pairing between two of the three characters (Anakin/Padme ; Han/Leia), and a sibling or pseudo-sibling bond two of three characters (Anakin/Obi-Wan ; Luke/Leia). And the remaining connection of the triangle (Padme/Obi-Wan ; Luke/Han) was more of a friendship than anything else.

Now, looking at our main three characters of this NEW trilogy, I’ve seen a lot of people arguing that it’s Rey/Finn/Poe. No, it’s really not. As much as I like Poe, he’s really more of the Lando or Yoda or Mace Windu of this series. He has an important role, but initially he’s more of a side character (especially considering that he doesn’t really get any character development until TLJ). This is evident in the marketing for TFA and the fact that Poe was supposed to die in the crash on Jakku.

No, Rey, Finn and Kylo are the main three of our story. With that, the bonds between them become more evident: Rey and Kylo are the romantic pairing as we clearly see in TLJ; and Rey and Finn are going to be more of the pseudo-sibling pairing (Sorry, FinnRey, shippers. I enjoy their dynamic but I see it being more platonic.) That will presumably leave Finn and Kylo to one day become friends, although it probably won’t happen in the events of Episode IX.

It’s evident that Rey and Finn deeply care about one another, and while there were hints to a possible romantic pairing between them – like the “cute boyfriend” comment and the “stop holding my hand,” awhich might’ve been done as either comic relief or shipping fodder – I don’t see them getting together unless Kylo dies (which I HIGHLY doubt, and we’ll get into more below).

Finn is the first person who ever cared about Rey and treated her like a real person, like family. That’s partly why she’s so attached to him; that and he’s just generally a good guy. Likewise, Rey was the first person to believe in Finn, and it’s obvious that she means a lot to him. They’re the first real connection they made after they escaped their respective shitty lives (scavenging on Jakku and working for the FO). But Finn only ever calls her his friend, and he and Rey never exchange any dialogue in TLJ. He hasn’t really talked to her since Starkiller Base, before he fell into his coma; they’ve both seen and done a lot since then. They’re really not the same people that they were on Jakku, and while they will always care about each other, their lives are moving in different directions to a certain degree.

Anyway, sorry that was long way of saying: Rey and Finn aren’t getting together; Rey and Kylo are getting together. At least romantically. I imagine Rey and Finn will still be a big part of each other’s lives at the trilogy’s end.

PREDICTION THREE: Length of the Time Skip

I doubt it will be shorter than six months, but I don’t think it’ll be more than three years. We need enough time for the Resistance to have built up their forces again, but not so long that I think Hux will have overthrown Kylo Ren (because it was very obvious that he’s not at ALL pleased with Kylo as Supreme Leader).

A year or a year-and-a-half seems pretty reasonable. Any more than that, and I think you’re going to have to explain why the hell Hux hasn’t killed Kylo Ren or why either the Resistance or FO hasn’t found out about the Force Bond (because I definitely think that’ll be making an appearance).

PREDICTION FOUR: Basic Plot Outline

On that note, here’s how I think the movie might go. We’ll get into the specifics of some of these later.

Since taking over as Supreme Leader, Kylo Ren has been mostly brooding. He doesn’t give a lot of orders, but mostly kind of lets Hux run things. He’s so incredibly conflicted, given everything that happened in TLJ. He is not at all stable emotionally or spiritually. He shuts himself in his chambers and doesn’t do much but wait for the Force Bond to connect him with Rey. They don’t really say anything to each other, even though both of them want to but can never find the words. Or something like that.

(EDIT: I could’ve sworn I put this next prediction in my original draft, but I guess not. Oh, well. Adding it back in now.) Leia’s death will be shortly before the events of this movie. In fact, it’ll probably be mentioned in the opening Title Crawl. News of her death or the feeling of his mother being gone (as he might sense it through the Force) will cause Kylo to break routine and leave his quarters to go on a solo trip to some location that reminds him of his mom. Alderaan is gone, so maybe wherever Leia and Han raised him?? As long as it wasn’t one of those planets that Starkiller blew up. Wherever. It’ll be somewhere that reminds him of his mom.

(EDIT:) Side note: I’m not sure what will cause Leia’s death. She might’ve died in battle. That’d at least be badass. But losing her husband and twin brother within a week of each other might’ve taken a strain on her physically and emotionally, much like what happened to Carrie Fisher’s mom, Debbie Reynolds, IRL. But, I think death in battle would be more fitting. Although, if that’s the case, Kylo won’t have ordered it.

As Kylo is visiting this site connected to his mom, Rey will either be on Jakku or Tattooine – delving into her own origins (visiting her parents’ graves in the junker desert) or into Luke’s/Anakin’s and trying to learn more about the Force. She will have constructed a new lightsaber: either one that’s totally unique to her (maybe like a staff size?), or one that uses half of the kyber crystal from the Skywalker Lightsaber (and Ben will use the other half for his saber at the very end, after he’s redeemed).

While they are both alone and on their personal journeys, the Bond will activate and they will finally say something to each other for the first time since TLJ. It won’t be much, and there will still be some anger/resentment/hostility between them, but it will be poignant and emotional. Rey will probably say something about how his mom never gave up on him, etc.

At some point while Kylo/Ben is visiting this location that reminds him of his mom, he will probably hear some audio of his mother speaking to him through the Force (they might use an earlier clip of Carrie/Leia saying “Ben” or something, they way they used the Alec Guiness/Old Ben dialogue in Rey’s Forceback).

Luke will appear as a Force-ghost to either Kylo or Rey or both at some point during the film, but this point (when they’re both on their respective journeys of nostalgia) seems the most likely. He’ll probably spout off some exposition-heavy dialogue (possibly giving Rey her third official lesson, if they decide the TLJ deleted scenes aren’t canon), and then tell Rey she’ll have to face Kylo again.

In the meantime, the Resistance has been cooking up some big plan to take down the FO’s most recent base/big gun/whatever. Poe is now in charge of the Resistance since Leia’s death. Finn and Rose are potentially a couple now, and they’re also major Resistance leaders.

Either the Resistance will win some major victory or the FO will start to fracture as Hux takes more power from Kylo. Something will have to kick Kylo back into full Renperor mode. Something will threaten his position of power and he will feel as though he has to retaliate. But, Hux won’t be killed off, either in battle or by Kylo, until the third act of the movie.

There will be a gigantic space battle in either the second or third act. Poe will probably be the one to kill Hux, if Kylo doesn’t.

Finn will likely find out about the Force Bond, if Rey hasn’t told him during the Time Skip.

If there’s an element where the Resistance has to send one of their own to infiltrate the FO base, Rey will do it. Finn will initially volunteer at first, but Rey says she has to face Kylo and give the Resistance its best chance to win.

Somehow Rey and Kylo will face each other in the final act of the film, likely after she’s sought him out on a FO base. Or they find each other on the battlefield.

Since the end of TLJ, Rey has gotten considerably stronger in the Force, especially her combat abilities. She and Kylo will be a literal even match. They know each other so well and are both so strong that almost every attack is ineffective. I really HOPE (not predict, but hope) that this fight will either have some kind of a dance feel to it or go back to Episode IV, when it was an homage to old samurai films. Like when they’re both trying to do one-shot kill moves on each other, but keep blocking it.

Okay… now as to how the fight will end… I truly believe that it will end in a draw with both of them being hurt to the point where they can’t fight any more, probably with inverse/opposite/complementary/mirroring injuries. The injuries will be major, but not life-threatening.

While they’re laying there, not fighting any more and experiencing a shared/parallel pain, they’ll both vocalize their feelings for one another. And probably kiss. And while they kiss, they have Force visions on how to resolve this conflict: to balance the Force by becoming Gray Jedi (Force-wielders who use both the light and the dark sides, in balance) TOGETHER.

Kylo will proposition to Rey to join him as a Gray Jedi, which she will accept.

Once they realize this, the two will go back to their respective sides, and figure out some kind of compromise/system where neither the Resistance nor the FO exists, but some kind of balanced government system where everyone feels represented and no one is oppressed.

Everyone celebrates the creation of this new system, the destruction of the old system(s), and Rey and Kylo leave their friends to become tandem Gray Jedi Masters who will teach the next generation of Force users all about the full scope of the Force. They’ll also totally become a couple and maybe we’ll see a Force-vision of the future, where they have kids or something.

Together, Ben and Rey will have brought balance to the Force and the galaxy at large!

EXPLANATION TIME!!!

Kylo letting Hux run most things would be a good reason for Hux not having killed him yet. And Kylo brooding rather than being a bad dude makes a lot of sense if he’s going to be redeemed and live. And it’s clear from the effort that’s gone into Kylo Ren’s character that he WILL be redeemed, and because we’ve already done the Redeemed Hero Dies route (Vader), Kylo will get to live, albeit probably scarred/injured/handicapped or something. He can’t do TOO much more evil stuff or otherwise he’ll be considered TOO unredeemable for average audiences. Killing Han, killing a bunch of innocent people and Resistance combatants, and trying to kill Luke are all pretty unredeemable, but eh. He killed Snoke, and Rey, Luke and Leia all believe in his goodness. Seeing his conflict early on in Episode IX will clue the audience in on his being redeemed by the end of the movie.

I’m basing a lot of this on Zuko’s character arc from the Avatar: The Last Airbender series and Sasuke from the Naruto universe (which we’ll talk about more in a second).

Rey’s arc, much like Luke’s in Episode VI, will be somewhat overlapping with the main War plot, but will ultimately take place parallel to it. Luke was on a journey of discovering himself, the Force and helping Anakin Skywalker to redeem himself. Rey, likewise, is on a journey of discovering herself, the Force and helping Ben Solo to redeem himself. Her main story will intersect with Finn/Poe/Rose/the Resistance’s, as Luke’s did with Han/Leia/Chewie/the Rebellion’s, but it will ultimately take place mostly separated from them.

With Carrie gone, they are going to have to have some kind of carry-over from the OrigTrig, and Luke as a Force-Ghost makes the most sense. He’ll do the Ben Kenobi role of getting the main characters to fight each other and figure out whatever the Force is trying to tell them. Because, as a Force-Ghost, Luke’s consciousness is one with the Force, or whatever; so he knows exactly what needs to happen for Balance to be achieved.

There will have to be something plot-wise to make Kylo snap out of his vulnerable state and back into his Renperor self because we’re going to need tension that he might kill Rey in their final duel, or at least destroy the Resistance. That way their final battle will have higher stakes.

Rey’s Force powers have leaned more toward the Sensing/Emotive side. Her first “awakening” is the Force-back, but even before that, she’s first aware of being called by the Force (the Lightsaber). She then figures out how to turn Kylo’s Force-sensing interrogation technique back on him, and senses his greatest fear. She also figures out how to use the Jedi Mind Trick, which she will ABSOLUTELY use again in Episode IX, and it’s only later that we see her using more of the physical attributes of the Force (pulling stuff toward you, combat enhancement, etc.). Rey is more naturally drawn toward sensing things via the Force, like the Tree, the Island (in her dreams) and the Lightsaber, and when she senses the Force as whole and then the Dark Side (the cave) in TLJ. So, during the Time Skip, she will have trained in learning how to use the Force to enhance her combat abilities, because it always felt to me like those were earned from her harsh life on Jakku rather than something inherent she had because she was Force-sensitive. (I mean, she didn’t even realize she was Force-sensitive until the Lightsaber scene on Takodana; but she’d been fighting off assholes all her life.)

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Force Bond is exposed to either the FO, the Resistance or both. This might be why Hux tries to usurp Kylo; and I doubt the Resistance will take Rey’s connection to Kylo all too well, considering that he tortured Poe and almost killed Finn (EDIT: and they might blame him for Leia’s death). Rey might make up for this by excusing herself from the main action of the War and offering to take down Kylo alone.

Now, what’s all this about the Gray Jedi and bringing “balance to the Force”?

(EDIT: Linking to the Wookieepedia article on “Gray Jedi” here.)

So, this is what all the eight movies have been leading up to – the prophecy that Anakin was supposed to fulfill. At the end of VI, the Sith (Vader and Palpitine) die and only one Jedi (Luke) survives to pass on what he has learned. This is not balance. At the time, we didn’t know about the whole prophecy thing and the OrigTrig was just about the good guys winning and the bad guys losing. But, over time, Star Wars has evolved to show us that this world – like ours – is a lot more GRAY. That’s what the Clone Wars series was about; that’s what Rebels (as far as I know) has been about; and that’s what the PT was sort of hinting at. That’s what THIS new trilogy has been hinting at, especially with the Finn/Rose subplot in TLJ. (EDIT: Which I wrote a whole meta analyzing and defending the importance of that subplot. Read it here.)

That’s not to say the FO hasn’t committed atrocities and the Resistance isn’t made up of people who have suffered and want better lives. But, as we saw with Finn, there’s a possibility that Stormtroopers are good people who don’t like what they’re being told to do. And, as was hinted at in TLJ, there are plenty of people who don’t like the Resistance. Because, in a war, no side is all good or all bad.

The whole Star Wars franchise kicked off as WWII In Space! But, since WWII, we’ve entered several conflicts where we (the U.S.) weren’t always in the right and the enemy wasn’t always in the wrong. There’s a TON of gray area in our conflicts now.

Anyway, this is all a very long way of saying that the OT’s understanding of the Light Side and the Dark Side isn’t well managed. As we saw with Luke at the end of VI, he let his anger, hatred and rage against Vader flow, but he didn’t become evil. He stopped himself, and realized that Vader was much more like him than he previously wanted to admit.

But, then in the PT, we see that the Jedi’s belief system is very lop-sided. They can NEVER let their emotions get the better of them. They have to be stoic, mindful, “celibate” (more or less), and detached from the world around them. They are encouraged to be compassionate, but not to love or become attached to people. This is a philosophy that isn’t going to fly well among modern audiences.

(EDIT: There’s a really great video Pop Culture Detective did on this very topic today. Linking to it here.)

Like with the War side, the answer is that we (the audience) are something in between. We do sometimes let our emotions get the better of us, which CAN be a bad thing sometimes, but not always (as “Inside Out” taught us, it’s unhealthy to lock certain feelings away). But, at the same time, most people aren’t evil and hate people so much that they want to destroy them.

So, the answer for The Force side of Star Wars is a balance: a coexisting of the extremes and the meeting of the two halves (Kylo and Rey). In TLJ, Luke’s big thing is that the Light Side WILL exist without the Jedi; and that the Force is ALL ABOUT A BALANCE: life/death, light/dark, heat/cold, peace/violence, etc. The Jedi is a RELIGION that used the Force, but there are plenty of other Force-users in this universe who aren’t Jedi or Sith (like Ahsoka Tano or Chirrut from Rogue One). The Gray Jedi can be the religious practice (the way of life) of Kylo and Rey. They can use both sides of the Force without being overcome by one or the other, by keeping them in a balance. I don’t know exactly how this would work, as I haven’t read TOO extensively into this topic, but I know it’s possible as I believe there were some Gray Jedi in the Legends Universe. I suppose it might be a bit like the Guardians of the Galaxy (another popular Disney property) – Kylo and Rey wouldn’t be all bad (because then they’d be evil) or all good (because then they’d be boring), but a little bit of both or something in between.

The happy ending to this entire saga isn’t about the Light snuffing out the Dark, the good guys killing all the bad guys, because the whole idea is that the Force and the world needs to be brought into balance. As much as we want the heroes to win, we also want the ending to be reflective of our human nature – both how we succeed and how we fail. This Gray Jedi ending would be reflective of that and bring the whole saga to a nice end.

I mean they wouldn’t have put a fucking YIN-YANG SYMBOL in the Meditation Pool on Ach-To if the idea behind the trilogy wasn’t about bringing the Force into balance. I wonder if it’s a good thing Rey took those ancient Jedi texts, because maybe they hint at if/how the Ancient Jedi (not the ones in the PT) were more in balance in the Force than our PT Jedi were.

We see this nicely encapsulated into Rey and Kylo as characters. Rey who embodies the Light, but has plenty of darker tendencies (like getting mad, charging at Snoke in a fit of rage and aggression); and Kylo who embodies the Dark, but has plenty of lighter tendencies (like telling Rey to detach herself from her past and let it go). They are a literal fucking YIN-YANG SYMBOL as people, side by side. But combined and intertwined… if you put a Yin-Yang symbol in wet paint on paper, and then mixed it together, what would you get?

A gray circle.

Gray Jedi is the answer, people. No question about it. At least in my mind.

Now, about the fight. Why do I think Rey and Kylo will have to wound one another and kiss?

Well, the draw/wound thing is something I stole from the Naruto universe.

For those of you who are unfamiliar… the main character Naruto (on the left) is very much the “light side” of his universe. His rival Sasuke (on the right, and who has a redemption arc similar to what we’ve seen of Kylo’s so far) is very much the “dark side.” There’s a point where they get sun and moon symbols on their respective hands, and each holds half of the same power source, although they manifest it differently based on their respective abilities/personalities.

Now, the entire series is built-up to this final showdown between the two. Naruto is not trying to kill Sasuke, but needs to stop him, because Sasuke IS trying to kill Naruto and bring an end to things/people Naruto loves. And, it physically ends in a draw. The two lose their dominant arms: Naruto loses his right; Sasuke, his left. Their wounds are a literal mirror of each other (see below). And in that shared pain, they find an understanding, and Sasuke decides not to kill Naruto but to come back over to the “good” side (more or less), to stop being a murderous asshole, and to start atoning for his crimes. (So, in a way, Naruto wins the fight on an emotional level, as he brings Sasuke over to his side.)

That’s very much where I see this Rey/Kylo thing going. There are so many parallels between these four characters and their respective arcs, it’s ridiculous.

With Kylo and Rey, each of them will be trying to kill the other so their respective side will win the War. A draw (with a major non-fatal injury) is the only way I see this fight ending in a way that will bring them into balance with each other and the Force at large.

Also, we’ve never had a movie lightsaber fight end in a draw before, to my recollection: Darth Maul killed Qui-Gon; Obi-Wan killed Darth Maul; Count Dooku injured/beat Obi-Wan and Anakin (I guess he ran away from Yoda, so you might count that); Count Dooku injured/beat Obi-Wan in the rematch and then Anakin killed Count Dooku; Obi-Wan injured/beat Anakin; the Emperor forced Yoda to run away; Obi-Wan allowed Vader to kill him; Vader beat/injured Luke; Luke beat/injured Vader in their rematch; Rey injured/beat Kylo; and there wasn’t really an actual lightsaber fight in TLJ.

It would fit the whole “balance” motif for neither to win or lose the fight, but instead the two come to an understanding and compromise.

Now. The Kiss.

Why do these two little fuckers have to kiss, IMO?

Well, do you all remember the Disney Channel TV Show “That’s So Raven”? The main character (Raven) is a psychic; and there’s an episode where she meets a male psychic. And, while they have 0 romantic interest in each other, there’s a point where they continue escalating their physical proximity/touching, because it allows them to better use their powers. There’s a point where they have to kiss in order to find Raven’s BFF and some other people.

And, as we saw with Rey and Kylo in TLJ, these two are oozing with sexual chemistry and Force power. I mean if they see each other’s futures whenever they touch hands, what the hell are they going to see when they kiss? (Or if they ever had sexy times… but this is a family-friendly movie, so that’s not going to happen on screen; the kiss is the closest we’re going to get).

I mean, c’mon you guys… everything we saw in TLJ is building up to them kissing and the Force coming into balance as a result of their combined lives/knowledge/destinies or whatever.

Also, as others have pointed out, they’re not going to kill off Ben Solo. The Skywalker family is too much of a commodity, and there’s so much possibility in leaving him alive and with Rey. I mean think of all the spinoff movies and TV shows we could have of them and their kids??? (EDIT: Just like how the Legends Universe focused in part on the kids of Luke, Han and Leia.) Rey is too well-loved by the fans to kill her off, and Ben/Kylo has gotten too much character development to not get redeemed. His kids with Rey would sell toys and tickets and subscriptions like crazy.

So, why do I think Ben/Kylo will proposition Rey, instead of the other way around (which would seem more natural)?

Well, in TLJ, each saw the other turning over to their side in a vision of the future. Rey says that Kylo won’t bow before Snoke and will turn, and she’ll help him. Kylo says that when the time comes Rey will turn and join him.

Now, from a physical standpoint, these visions were true after the Praetorian Guard fight. Kylo physically turned against Snoke and killed him, but emotionally was still attached to the Dark Side. Rey did physically join Kylo by his side in fighting the Guards but was still emotionally attached to the Light Side, or really, the Resistance. Neither ACTUALLY came over to the other’s side. Kylo didn’t want to join Rey politically, and she didn’t want to join him spiritually.

But now, they’re going to find that compromise where they meet in the middle both politically and spiritually. Kylo was right in TLJ: the old THINGS (political organizations, religious ways) should die, but Rey was right in that the PEOPLE should be saved. The only way to achieve both goals is to end the War, the FO, the Resistance, the Sith and the Jedi… and create something new. A compromise that works for everyone and brings the much-needed balance to the Force and the galaxy.

Each of them WILL join the other. Rey’s vision will have to be right that Kylo will turn from the Dark Side, and Kylo’s vision of her turning from the Light and joining him will have to be true as well.

So, like any proper proposal of marriage/political alliance/spiritual alignment, I think Ben should be the one to suggest it. That way, we the audience can see the fruition of his redemption arc, etc. (Also, we have to come full-circle on the Space!Mr.Darcy thing.)

Anyway, I’ve now rambled on about this for QUITE long enough. Just wanted to throw out some ideas and see what you guys think and if you have predictions of your own. (EDIT:) And, to quote Preston Jacobs, “I’m probably wrong about half of this.” There’s plenty of hints of where the franchise is going, but I’m sure there are some details I will have gotten wrong. Which is fine. This can be my headcanon for the next two years.

I guess there’s nothing else to say other than, “May the Force be with you, always.” Cheers, guys! And thanks for reading!

[emobatsy]

I saw a post that said kylo fans were all old Loki fans and I'm like hmmm what does robin think of this

INTERESTING

however, me, a known loki stan absolutely despises kyle ron

idk? i cant rlly assess it bc i dont follow any hardcore kylo ren fans so i cant assess their behaviour. idk if they went into the craze also abt the actor cuz tbh, loki fan stuff was a LOT abt hiddleston back in the early thor/avengers days.

this is a weird thing to think about!

like the environments were so different? barely anyone was critical of the marvel movies (or anything they enjoyed tbh) back then and now its problematic city on here.

i do know quite some people who went out of tfa like “cool until he took the helmet off, then a bit bland, cant tell from this movie alone” and i think thats mainly due to the fact that indeed, he wasnt a major character in this movie. its more comparable to avengers loki where hes the villain but not the main character (which is tony, steve, etc vs rey) BUT !! you have the advantage of KNOWING thor beforehand. where he definitely was a main character and not solely painted as the villain but with background story agency… which…. we are lacking for kylo ren so far. what do we know abt him? killed his dad, ran away from home, is now a homicidal mass murderer…

and tbh…. loki killed a shit ton of ppl in avengers as well by letting the Alien Army in, but you know his backstory and the kind of way he was just trying to get some agency that he (to an extent rightfully) didnt get at home? whereas kylo ren from what we’ve seen just threw a giant temper tantrum, ran away from home first chance he got and continued to be a pissbaby ever since. we dont have a compelling backstory!

loki tried and meant well, which is something… from what ive seen in tfa… i cant say for kylo.

and im not talking fan interpretations, novelizations or cast interviews here. just the source material. im not even touching on comic loki for this bc most of the mcu loki stans never ended up reading comic loki.

and honestly? off the top of my head i can name a handful of redeeming qualities about movie loki alone, whereas the only thing i can think of for kylo is that he wanted to be loved and acknowledged? which fair. but his way of doing it aint exactly the way u could attempt it. at least loki like… u kno he was being /fairly/ reasonable with letting the jotuns into asgard to prove a point, he was a drama queen (both of em are) but he genuinely tried to not put the focus on how great HE was but that the he thought the others (thor, odin etc) were flawed and this was the only way they’d listen

from what i can tell? kylo ren was loved at home and listened to and well taken care off. you see the sheer love both han and leia have for him eVEN after all hes done. which is a stark contrast to how odin views loki post avengers u kno

its just

i get the comparison of being into the dark haired murdering misunderstood villain type but their stories are…. differently nuanced for me to support this

idk abt u, but i have a proper backstory on loki and can therefore feel with him, u truly feel bad for the kid when he discovers what he’s been lied to abt and frankly odin doesnt deserve a dad of the year award (for either of the kids).

and then kylo whos cruel, torturing the main protagonist bc he (figuratively speaking) didnt get a second serving of ice cream at home? wild.

so uh yeah, i am not sure that if tfa had come out even the same year as avengers i wouldve liked kylo then, bc from the first moment on he wasnt in any way positive and just… got worse.

and theres a fine line between temper tantrums and genuinely founded emotional upset.

tbh

if old loki fans are kylo stans now they either a) project a lot of loki(’s relatability) onto kylo, and/or b) lowered their fuckin standards to hell and back

personally, from what ive seen, there IS a great deal of woobification of both villains and on the surface - yea maybe. but those kylo stans will also mostly chill out once we stopped getting movies of him for a while u kno. like loki stans moved on to other marvel stuff or tv shows or things, only a few rlly got ‘stuck’ in a sense. and i think that thatll happen to those who are hardcore emotional die hard kylo fans after tfa will mostly fade into other stuff as well.

new content to obsess over is put out so quickly that u gotta wait for it all to die down a bit. and honestly? those who still stan loki are more of the “yeah he did some dumb shit but hes a good character” back from the thor/avengers days which was like…. 5 years ago at LEAST. 

tfa is 2 years old and i expect to see smthn similar happen.

but i really do not see any of the giant mass worship flood that happened with loki/hiddleston, but maybe thats just me. i think its much more subdued and less people and uh…

tl;dr. if there are old loki fans who are now kylo fans, its probably on a superficial level and based on misunderstandings of character and make believe. i dont think their impact on the overall fandom (marvel/star wars) is even comparable. who /wasn’t/ a loki stan back in 2012? and now, who /is/ a kylo stan.

but thats just my speculation so uh

as an old loki fan

fuck off kyle ron