#this counts for all of anakin's foils/parallels too

[antianakin]

I think part of the reason I have a hard time considering any of the characters in Star Wars "antiheroes" is because I think the real message of Star Wars sort-of goes against the entire CONCEPT of an "antihero." An antihero is generally defined as someone who does "the wrong thing for the right reasons." Or, in other words, someone with heroic and noble intentions but who perhaps uses less noble and heroic methods in order to achieve that ultimate end goal. And while there are absolutely characters in Star Wars who fit that description, the message of the story tells us that there isn't really any such thing as doing "the wrong thing for the right reasons." If you're doing the wrong thing, there is no right reason. There are ONLY wrong reasons for doing the wrong thing.

For example, you could argue that Anakin is an "antihero" because he commits a genocide and throws a galaxy into tyranny and fascism, but he does it to "save Padme from dying." Saving Padme sounds like such a good, heroic goal, even if his methods are obviously horrific and evil. But the message of that whole story is that Anakin isn't really doing this to save Padme. He's doing it to keep himself from having to live with the pain of losing her. He's doing it because he can't accept change. He's doing it because his own fear of that pain is more important to him than anything else, including the lives of innocent children or the wellbeing of an entire galaxy. He's not an antihero according to Star Wars's own messaging, he's just a villain. The moment he decides to murder a bunch of innocent people for his own selfish desires, he chooses to become a villain. There's no middle ground where his slightly sympathetic reasoning puts him into the "antihero" category. He's JUST a villain. Immediately and completely. None of his reasons are right, they're just selfish.

There is no "heroic intention" that outweighs the less than heroic means in Star Wars. There just isn't, because the heroic intention doesn't actually exist. So while many of the characters fall under the traditional definition of an antihero, the actual message of the story (at least if it's written by Lucas or someone who actually cares about his story) doesn't support the idea of an antihero at all.

[roguegona]

Thoughts/ramblings after the first 2 episodes of Ahsoka:

This was Rebels come to life. Everything about it, from seeing Lothal in live-action, to Ryder Azadi and Jai Kell and Sabine and Hera and Chopper, felt like a love-letter to us die-hard Rebels fans who've been waiting so long for this.

Chopper is still as murderous as ever and his back and forth with Hera as she tries not to get them killed was so fun to watch. I look forward to him trying to up his body count and Hera foiling him as often as she can.

I love the dichotomy of Baylen/Shin to Ahsoka/Sabine. The parallels between the two pairs are obvious and I can't wait for them to meet again.

Welcome to the disaster lineage, Sabine. Anakin is looking on fondly as you provide all the karma for Ahsoka and how difficult she was as a Padawan.

The Fallen Order/Zeffo parallels were too numerous and too obvious to ignore. Not to mention giving me traumatic flashbacks to all the times I got stuck in the Tomb of Eilram. shudders. I'll be interested to see if this is the route they go.

Ezra accidentally yeeting him and Thrawn to another galaxy entirely is so on-brand for Ezra.

Ahsoka and her complete inability to unpack all her trauma and how it's affected her relationships was refreshing to see. Yes, she's a great warrior and leader but girl has some SHIT to work through before she can be a good Master. But maybe that's exactly what Sabine and her own traumatized-ass need. They can heal together. And I am here for it.

I could ramble all day about every single scene. But I won't. Love this show and can't wait to see where it takes us.

[hylialeia]

based a little bit on that last post, can i ask your thoughts on kylo ren. what were the sequels even trying to do with him, and what went wrong (or right, ig)?

This assumes the Sequels knew what they wanted to do with any of their characters Part of the issue here is that the writers tried to leave things too open instead of just committing to a single story, resulting in the nonsensical tug-of-war from movie to movie where no one got a consistent story arc. Another is that I don't think the original concept they crafted for Kylo was ever going to work for that open-road approach.

Consider: The Force Awakens wanted Kylo to be a reverse Anakin, ending up in the same position as Vader in the OT, but ultimately for the opposite reasons. Whereas Anakin struggled his whole life with the pull of the Dark Side, Kylo explicitly struggles against the pull of the Light; he doubles down on his commitment to evil for his own purposes. It's also worth noting that none of the films ever actually provide a motivation for Kylo in the way they do for Anakin, who we’re shown in the Prequels sought power because he became obsessively afraid of losing the people he loved (extremely in-line with his backstory as a slave on Tatooine). And no, I'm not counting books or additional materials as valid explanations; Kylo is a main character in the Sequel Trilogy, so this information should have been part of the actual story, not a DVD extra.

Furthermore, one of the things the Sequels actually do commit to is showing how Kylo's cruelty is a form of compensation; he's presented as childish, entitled, volatile, and insecure, evoking a completely different atmosphere than Darth Vader in the Original Trilogy. He destroys control panels with his lightsaber, wears a mask that he doesn't even need, and panics when Rey can tell he's only mimicking Vader's power. In the same way Anakin once tried to be the perfect Jedi Knight, Kylo is trying to be a perfect Sith Lord.

And I definitely think this is an interesting character route to go, using the clear parallels with Vader to showcase how different they actually are... but it begs the question, how do you carry out a story arc for a character who acts like this? And what do you do when the evil coalition you've aligned this character with is narratively the same as the fascist-coded tyrannical Empire from the OT? And what do you do when that character is also the only next-generation member of the main family these movies have all been following along with?

This is where I feel putting Kylo in Vader's position of the Empire-aligned antagonist AND secret family member really starts to backfire, because there’s no satisfying ending for him. Redemption? He’s a willing participant in a fascist regime (which blew up five planets, not that any of the movies ever feel like addressing this). No redemption? He’s the only next-gen Skywalker, the son of Leia Organa and Han Solo, the last member of the family this entire franchise has been building up for fifty years. Redemption through death (AKA, the option we actually ended up with)? Repetitive, literally a copy of what happened to Vader; plus, if you were against redemption, it feels half-assed, and if you were for it, he ends up dead. Everybody loses.

But then again, good writing can pull off virtually any of these options, can’t it? And therein lies the final issue: the Sequel Trilogy and its characters are poorly written. From their backstories to their current arcs and motivations, they’re inconsistent, designed to be appealing blank canvases for projection--for better or worse.

Let’s go back to the OT. Darth Vader is the villain, yes, but the way the OT handles his arc is with clear purpose and awareness; he's Luke's foil, Luke's potential future, Luke's father. Even his redemption is more about Luke's character than his own, focusing on Luke's insistence that there's good in him and that he can find a way to bring it out (thus his last words: "You were right, Luke. Tell your sister, you were right"). When you take into account the Prequel Trilogy, it's also clear that Anakin is meant to be sympathetic, his fall playing out as a tragedy orchestrated through circumstances largely beyond his control. He struggled against darkness and failed, suffered throughout his life, and in the end is pulled back into the light by his son before he dies, going out with one last act of defiance. His arc is structured. Planned. Fine-tuned, even, for his character.

I don’t think the Sequels ever knew what they wanted to do with Kylo, and certainly not to this extent. If they were going for a redemption, they shot themselves in the foot with their repetitive story concept more than anything else.

[c-bulletaftermidnight]

Your art really has buoyed finnrey fandom, thanks so much! What are you hoping for storywise for Finn, Rey, and Finnrey in Episode IX?

Ok, just an head-up: I am a sucker for well-written angsty scenarios, for the good guys and bad guys. And I want for LF to acknowledge that Kylo isn’t the only “traumatized” character in this trilogy and gives us an emotionnal arcs where the members of the same factions are involved and that war can have a huge tolls on the heroes, like the way it was depicted in TCW tv show with characters like Anakin, Barriss Offee, Pong Krell, the clones, Boba Fett etc…

I think a character in a story can be OP as long there is something to counterbalance their powers such as personnalities problems, the powers having a huge toll on them etc…. 

Since RJ used the force-download excuse for powering Rey without writing a proper arc for her because he was lazy, I’m kinda hoping the Force-Download & Force-Bond might have bad consequences on her mental state. Remember when the Dark side was considered like a self-destructive path? Well, what if due to her lack of training, traumas, being branched by a dark sider like Kylo and suddendly involved in a war, her mental state ended up deteriorating? What if she started to become prone even more easily to anger, violence and fear? Would the war make her apathic & reckless? (I’m really hoping she will get some scars or something because I hate how male characters are allowed to have huge scars but female one have to remain dainty, full makeup & super attractive.)

Traumas never fully goes away but her story would become about how she would be able to cope with all these things and still be able to triumph, how she managed to pull thru without going to the dark side. It would parallels Anakin’s journey to become Vader in a way except instead we would have Rey refusing to become a monster and battling to not become one.

Still want her to murder Kylo tho, making the audience accept the fact it is sometime necessary to cut the head of someone who is too far gone after all the chances he has been given and that Kylo is not exempt of it bcos he’s a Sky and that Rey and Finn, despite not having the Skywalker’s name, can still the carries the value of that family.

Anyway let Leïa become Rey’s adoptive mother and give her the Organa’s name. 

For Finn, I want as well for his traumas to be depicted onscreen. It’s like LF forgot one of the main trigger of his arc is seeing first a stormtrooper comrade getting killed in front of his eyes and then refusing to commit war crimes but then he goes “ yahoo!” when killing other stormtroopers (same for Rey btw) which lead further to the other stormtroopers being deshumanized by the narrative, which make him lose all the credibility of a stormtrooper revolution or something (and the deleted scene doesn’t make sense btw. Finn is literally saying to stormtroopers than Phasma betrayed them and???? Cool, they have two traitors to the FO to catch now. It shouldn’t be something that would make them defect. At the contrary, they prob could smell that nice promotion after capturing the two of them) + he has one of the reasons why so many of their comrades are dead now. 

One of my hopes tho is that w/ Supremacy’s destruction, some stormtroopers ended up evacuating in urgence and since the FO decided to head to Crait instead of providing rescue for their soldiers, some ended up lost on planets and felt abandonned when they saw rescue won’t come for them. It would be nice to see Finn look for them and try to convince them to join the Resistance. The FO abandonned them but the Resistance will save them, despite their old allegiance stuff like that. I could create some tensions between the Resistance members, with some not accepting the stormtroopers easily while making their numbers grow. 

I want him to become an high-ranked officer of the Resistance who will have to deal with the war but also the internal politics of the organization, I suppose. I also want him to confront Hux, who should be one of his main foils along with Kylo. I also want him to have a rematch with Kylo and who knows, also battle the KOR, showing that even a non-force sensitives can triumph against force-sensitives as long he has the mind of a good tactician.

I also want him to grow as a strong, tactical and caring leader of the Resistance. He hate the war but he knows it is the right thing to do, even if it is hard for him while also refusing to become apathic to the suffering of others. People are counting on him to lead them and he is treated seriously by the narrative, fuck that “hurh durr stormtrooper janitor” bs. I thought it was established that he was good leader and tactician in the Before Awakening novel?

(An interesting note tho, a few days ago, i was going around his TFA concept arts and i have noted that Finn’s character and traumas was treated more seriously when he was supposed to be a yt character. Like he has two whole full of art treating about the horrors he witnessed and his trauma)

Maybe Finn & Rey would feels isolated during the war but they become each other pillars, source of re-assurance and affection during an hard time, dreaming of their life post-war in an almost selfish way bcos they also want to put an end to it so they can live together in peace. Maybe have Finn finally put his military past behind him and help Rey to form a New New Jedi Order or become a politician who will try to make the galaxy thrives again after all that destruction.