#vergil zogratis

[silvyavan]

The reason why Zenon doesn't "see" The fourth siblings face isn't because of mind/soul manipulation magic

It might just be because Zenon doesn't remember his face anymore. Remember, the page in question is Zenon's flashback/memory. And it shows that Vanica and Dante are only fleshly contracted/the contract is only half formed. This means that the memory is likely before Noelle was born (November 15th). We know that because when Vanica attacks Acier, Noelle is already born, the season is spring and Vanica's contract is fully formed.

And assuming this memory is from the day Zenon merked Allen, it's likely before Yuno was as well. So I'd give it 6 months before Vanica attacks at least and a year before she attacks at most.

That's about 18 years. And assuming that the 4th sibling is dead by the time the coup happened, Zenon hasn't seen his brother's face in almost 2 decades.

Yeah, no shit that Zenon doesn't remember his face, man's been dead to Zenon longer than he's been alive.

[thespiralgrimoire]

@argent-aviis didn't like this very much

[silvyavan]

thoughts on the julius is the 4th zogratis theory ( youtuber called broku made a vid on it )

OK, I ended up letting this sit in the inbox for a while but here's my 2 cents

It's pure bullshit for two main reasons:

1) Julius is not the 4th sibling because it doesn't make sense via his character arc/written character

And

2) We already know/can guess who the 4th Zogratis Sibling is

We know for a fact that the Zogratis sibs all have magic that is connected to the human body. Julius' time magic fits nowhere in that. It's likely that the 4th sibling has some form of mind/soul magic to complete that.

With Julius, we have canon evidence of him getting a clover grimoire and him living in Clover, which contradicts how he could be in 2 places at the same time. Not just that, but the thing about us not knowing a lot about the Novachrono house? Same goes with the Roselei, Legolant and Gravorka houses but nobody's pointing fingers there for some reason.

(Ie he was likely around 27 when the Spade Coup happened, and, if we think about it, he would have likely been even younger when we first see the Zogratis 4th sib).

It also wouldn't make sense if Julius had managed to become a Grey Deer and the magic King when he wasn't in a register. We saw how they treated Nero with it, and as you can tell it would have been a lot worse back in the past. Pretty sure Clover has some unwritten "must be clover Nobility to apply for Wizard King position", since there haven't been any talks of a commoner/peasant Wizard king until Asta and Yuno crashed teh political party.

The mark on his forehead? The swallowtail magic tool is literally that.

Him having time magic which means he's devil contracted? literally doesnt need to be a zogratis for julius to be possessed by a devil, if he even was possessed and somehow managed to hide it for over 30 years (especially with Damnatio poking his nose everywhere)

All that, and the main thing that disproves this?

We already know who the 4th Zogratis sibling is.

It's Vergil Zogratis.

Dante's name is inspired by the Divine Comedy, where Dante Aligheri travels through hell.

Here's the thing, he doesn't travel alone. The one that takes him on the trip to Inferno, is Vergilius.

Vergil, who he looks up to and has encyclopedic knowledge of hell, who literally walks Dante through hell and explains everything to him. We LITERALLY see that his first pieces of dialogue is about Zenon being prime devil host material.

It's already kind of obvious that Vergil is dead (number 4 meaning death, he was already dying when Zenon was baby,) by the time of the coup. But the fact still stands that Vergil was undeniably the one to pull the Zogratis family into demonology.

Vergil likely was pushy for Zenon, prime subject, to become devil host and may have orchestrated Allen's death. All of the siblings obviously look up to Vergil. Zenon for being kindest to him, Vanica because he likely brought lots of strong people and power her way via devil contract and Dante by instilling his philosophy to him and letting him carry on his message.

Virgillius was a poet who wrote the Aenaeid and one who Dante Alighieri VERY much adored. Wouldn't be off for Dante to to look up to Vergil Zogratis if he was basically raised by him.

Another thing, we can guess that Vergil would be contracted to Astaroth, the time devil. Astaroth's main powers include knowledge of all that is time (Past, Present, Future) and has a foul breath that you needed an amulet for to repell.

Would it be a stretch that Vergil made a contract with Astaroth for Knowledge but the more he was told, the sicker he would get? I'm betting my left ass cheek on it.

[silvyavan]

One fucked up theory I have is that the witch Queen has made a deal with a supreme devil.

Yes I will go into detail.

Ie:

Broke: Julius is the host for the time devil

Woke: Witch Queen is the host for the time devil.

First things first, look at her and her bio.

First pic is her before imprisoning Vanessa

Second one is the most recent pic, as of anime.

Her age, much like the Zogratis, is unknown. However, with the Zogratis, from Zenon's and Allen's bio, we can estimate that Zenon, as the youngest, is 34ish but looks 17/hasn't aged since he was 17. Same goes for Vanica and Dante (no, the beard is not an indication of age, a beard can make you look 40 at the age of 20 if styled right).

This means that most devil hosts, if contracted to a high enough devil, do not age. Honestly, I'd argue that it applies to devil hosts in general since Nacht also doesn't look a day over 19 but the eyebags give it away? I guess.

Witch Queen is described as ancient, to the point where she knows some information about the elf massacre, not entirely of it, and information about forbidden magic. I'd carbon date her at about 250-400 is years. Her knowledge of forbidden magic also states that she may have had a run in with it at one point.

One thing I want to point to most of all is the necklace with 3 feathers. We know from Nacht, that devils need to be summoned through artifacts and to make use of the power they grant through a deal, this artifact should be on hand.

While i can't certainly say that the necklace is an artifact, but it COULD be an indicator of a successful deal. Ie a deal in which the trade/agreement is reached for both parties. Remember, we know that Nacht's devils are bound to him until death because of subjugation, Asta and Liebe's contract is an equal one based on Liebe giving Asta power and Asta helping Liebe in terms of fighting devils, Zenon's deal with Beelzebub involved him giving up his everything and prior to that, Zenon owed him his soul.

These are all deals in progress. We've never actually seen a completed deal. Witch Queen might actually be a character that could showcase that (as she hasn't been relevant in a while and I can tell she'd PROBABLY notice the Qlipoth and Lucifero busting up everybody's shit).

Before Vanessa's imprisonment/Witch Queens prediction of the red thread, the feathers are white. Afterwards, up until Vanessa returned, which I assume could be about anywhere between 15-20 years, the feathers are black. I assume, however that its after Vanessa's magic was unlocked but before she was imprisoned, that the deal was completed. With that in mind, I'm assuming the witch queen managed to complete her side/the devil completed their side of the deal, about within 5 years of Vanessa's magic awakening.

This could be very close to the time period in which the Zogratis siblings also managed to get their devil contracts and Vergil Zogratis, who I assume had the time devil, also managed to cash in his soul and subsequently die. Do I believe this is connected? Mayhaps.

Onto some of the abilities she has.

For a blood mage, Witch Queen has a very versatile use of magic, from total control (which we've so far only seen MEGICULA be able to do) to healing, to weapon creation, to curse lifting.

She also has a fortune telling ability, which could lead to the power she gained from a contract. Which basically means that she managed to get an expanded skillset and a sliver of time magic (assuming that fortune telling is a subtype of it). So rather than trading her soul for the whole power if the devil, she offered a service/help with something in exchange for a small fraction of it. Smart move imo. I'm assuming that whatever the devil wanted, they got within the 5 year time period we know.

As for WHOM that devil is.

Now onto the crows. I'm sure we all remember these bitchass birds.

On one hand, I'd say that these birds are the Witch Queen's familiars.

BUT, Rouge is, by extention, Vanessa's familiar, even though she's made from her magic and threat. So familiars are essentially made from their master's magic. We also don't see these birds in Vanessa's flashback, but judging by Witch Queen's sudden taste for black attire and standing on windows, they're likely there somewhere near her. This could also be in the time frame where she gained a completed deal.

That is to say, Witch Queen's familiars, the crows, are familiars made from her magic and magic power given to her through a devil deal.

And where are the crows in the Qlipoth?

In the Ravens of Dispersion! A'Arab Zaraq or Harab Serapel.

Now, if Tabata had gone by the direct direction of the Qlipoth, that would mean that the demon would be Asmodeus,

HOWEVER, Tabata uses the REVERSED order in the Qlipoth. Which means that what was the 7th Palace is the 1st Gate.

Which means that the Ravens of Dispersion, which are the 5th Palace, are actually governed by the devil of the 3rd Palace, which is also the 5th gate, who is

ASTAROTH, OUR NUMBER ONE CANDIDATE FOR THE TIME DEVIL.

So YEAH.

Is is possible that the Witch Queen made a deal with Astaroth, Clover Kingdoms most wanted tax evading bastard, and the deal manages to come to fruition/pay off to Witch Queen during the same time the Zogratis got their deal/Vergil Zogratis kicked the bucket?

Shit, maybe.

[silvyavan]

Before the leaks hit, I'm putting this out rn

I 200% believe that the 4th Zogratis sibling is named Vergil and was likely possessed by Astaroth. Maybe not that exactly word for word but we'll see how it goes