#which of course feels like a huge betrayal bc of course he does not explain this properly

[waitineedaname]

Sorry to bring up homestuck, but Bingqui just gives me giant pale vibes. Imagining the gentle intimacy of Shen Qingqui tenderly patting Binghe’s face in a blanket pile until he calms down!!!!! And Cuddling!!! Also maybe involuntary purring too just because!

do NOT apologize for bringing up homestuck quadrants, those are the best things to come out of homestuck. palerom bingqiu is SO GOOD!!! especially since part of a moirallegiance for trolls is often like. sometimes about keeping someone from being a threat to society sdlkfjsdlkfj imagining them cuddling and purring in a blanket pile is making me ACHE, i love them so much

[leovand]

ARIZONA U is proud to introduce you to LEONARDO “LEO” VAN DOREN , the twenty-five year old, undergraduate fine arts major in his SENIOR year. most of their peers deem them as someone who is +eccentric , +intelligent & +self-sufficient but i know that some of their professors think they’re more -self-righteous, -precipitous & -self-destructive, maybe that’s why the police are still interviewing them on the reopened cold case. maybe it was because they were also A BAD INFLUENCE for NATALIA LINDERMAN. i mean that is just a little suspicious, but i only really think of scuffed black combat boots, a car that always smells like weed, and meaningless tattoos when i hear their name, not murder. but i could be wrong. — MAXENCE DANET-FAUVEL.

boo bitch i’m gin, bout to head out to work but tbh i’ll be around to chat n plot bc whew it’s boring there !!!! anyway down below you’ll find a terrible bio + some wcs so come hmu and we’ll plot some angst or give this a like and i’ll slide in ur dms woo ah

also a tl;dr is right before the wcs and above that is a brief description of his connection to natalia

trigger warnings for drug use/abuse, addiction, and infidelity

background info

leo was born in london to two very wealthy parents, richard and cynthia van doren. richard was something of an inattentive father (particularly when it came to leo) and from early on beginning to distance himself from the family, and while cynthia certainly loved leo, she’d always wanted a daughter, which she got two years later when his little sister victoria ( @toriivd​ ) was born. thus, it was from an extremely young age that leo began to feel like something of a black sheep in the family. richard was, unbeknownst to any of them, already having an affair with a woman in america whom he’d met on several business trips to arizona. all they knew was that he hardly seemed invested in their family anymore, let alone to take an interest in their lives. of course, victoria was a daddy’s girl, and though she often pretended not to see this happening leo knew perfectly well she was lying deliberately to herself. it was something he only pulled out when they fought bitterly, and they both knew it was a low blow when he did. 

this was especially apparent in high school, when leo’s acting out turned to drug use, skipping school, and even trouble with the police a few times. richard was almost never there either to lend fatherly support or to discipline--the only time he was, leo got the tongue-lashing of his life as well as a slap in the face, and if he had to pick a specific event which led him to the realization that he hated his father, it would be that one. 

even as things were looking rockier and rockier with their parents, leo was 12 when his mom got pregnant again. 13 when she had their baby brother, bradley. it was frankly a mess and for the first couple years leo was not at all good about helping. he resented the further attention drawn away from himself and hated his dad more than ever for his seemingly endless supply of bullshit

when he was 15, tori 13, and bradley 2, their parents finally got divorced. he and tori listened in on the final, blow-out fight from the stairs and learned that the reason their father had been taking so many business trips to the states all these years was in fact another woman, and even better, the two kids he had with her. tori had processed this in her own way, and leo had tried to be there for her, but his own self-destructive method of processing it made it difficult to do so. in other ways, however, the whole thing changed the nature of his relationship with his mother, which had always been a little distant. the fact of his father’s betrayal had the effect of inspiring within leo a fierce love and protectiveness over her, and in the rubble of their family the four of them found something much more intimate than they’d had before. 

he graduated high school in spite of all this but spent the following two years doing nothing productive; it was sex drugs rock n roll and rebellion, and through it all giving a huge metaphorical middle finger to his dad, who’d officially moved to arizona to pledge his allegiance to his chosen family. leo and tori eventually came to the morally questionable agreement to tell people that their father had died in a car accident rather than explain the truth, and for leo, it was as much an act of spitting on his father’s memory as it was a tactic to avoid talking about it. 

it was when tori finally graduated high school that they formulated the plan to go to university in arizona, and while they were there to try and find their father. not because leo missed him, of course--it was closure he was after, and only seeing him and his other family would allow him to find it.

a year ago now, leo went back home to england for a month and a half to check himself into rehab, but the only person he told was his mom. it was for an opioid addiction that had gotten out of hand and he did indeed manage to get clean. he’s even managed to stay clean when it comes to the opioids, but he’s started doing coke now and then and dabbling in pills. mostly though it’s just a lot a lot of weed all the time. 

he’s in his senior year of his bfa and has almost no prospects, although that’s mostly due to his screwing them all up by being high and careless about it. a part of him despises the whole idea of school and the work force and having a career and is lowkey self destructing bc he can’t handle the idea of growing up and having to act like an adult

personality

so for the most part, leo is super super chill, doesn’t take anything very seriously, is cracking jokes 24/7 (his sense of humor is so so so dry), almost always high, and if no one stops him will start rambling on about literally anything in his pretentious know it all way that he genuinely doesn’t realize is so wildly pretentious

he’s a fine arts major with a focus in illustration but he also does a lot of sculpting. so he doodles a lot, probably on things he shouldn’t doodle on, and he makes money on the sculptures here and there (which he’s telling himself he can sustain for his entire life lmao)

pansexual, tends to sleep around but genuinely likes being in a relationship. he falls in love rly easily and has little crushes on random people all the time and is prone to infatuations with people who don’t feel the same way. most relationships he’s had have failed bc of his drug problem interfering and/or becoming too much for his partner at the time to deal with

for everything he’s been thru, leo actually has quite an optimistic view of the world and people in general and he just really likes human interaction and being around people. he can come off as wildly eccentric and difficult to keep up with and sometimes makes it seem like he thinks he’s better than everyone and doesn’t give a fuck what anyone thinks but on the highest of keys he cares so much what everyone thinks and will probably admit that out loud tbh ftyegudhsujka

cares about his mom, sister, and little brother more than anything in the world and feels guilty as HELL about not being there while his brother is growing up

will lose his mind if u call him leonardo

connection to natalia linderman //  natalia was the good girl, and that was certainly part of leo’s motivation to corrupt her—there was something thrilling about being able to effect such change in someone held in such high esteem on campus—but that wasn’t all of it. some part of him had developed feelings, too, and it killed him that she never saw him that way. the drugs and the class-skipping to smoke weed made him feel close to her, even when she was talking about other people. he eventually began to feel guilty for what he saw as poisoning her with his way of life, and he’d been working up the nerve to tell her this until she went missing. he now lives with the fear that whatever she got mixed up in that resulted in her death could be blamed on the drugs, and more specifically, him.

tl;dr // comes from a wealthy british family whose father left when he was 15 in favor of his second family in america; weed smoker, class skipper, pretentious art boy acts like he doesn’t give a fuck but actually gives the most fucks and readily admits it; surprisingly soft but will Fight for his mom and sister; spent two months that nobody knows about in rehab last year for an opioid addiction

wanted connections/plot ideas

this will have to be discussed with me n maia but !! a boy who tori was dating six months ago (for however long before that) who seduced leo and then told him he wanted to be w him instead, and then broke up with tori when leo said no and told her he cheated on her but not with whom fytsugeuhkdij so hmu if u wanna fill that and i’ll give u more deets 👀

the two kids!!! from their dad’s second family!!!! PLEASE!!!

randomly someone he was in rehab with showing up in arizona somehow???? more likely than u think !!

a few exes from arizona + any exes from back home in london would be cute

someone with a s/o whom leo is practically in love with who does not feel the same way back p l e a s e ideally they’d be rly close friends too

stoner buds thanks

gimme some of tori’s exes/suitors for leo to fight OR even softer.....to rly like and root for

a bad influence who encourages his drug use :/

good influences!!!

whew also someone who kind of.....had an idea of what he was doing with natalia and was Big Sus about it and maybe still is !!!?????!

[elizabethrobertajones]

About Destiel... Someone close to me who loves Spn and chat with me and all that but doesn't involve in Tumblr, or fanarts or whatever bc of man stereotypes (those are crap, really) told me yesterday that Dean was egocentric. I was like Are you fúcking kidding me, but he explained that there is a very thin line between hate and love, and for Dean to hate himself he had to have loved himself before, or something like that. I think it's interesting, so i wanted to know your opinion about this

Pfft, Tumblr cooties. 

I have to say I didn’t expect that logic to go where it did :P

I think Dean has a lot of anxiety and obvious self-esteem issues, but if I was going to look at him as being egocentric I’d be much more interested in examining his personal relationships than that… I’ve been musing on this while drinking my morning coffee (and sorry, this is going to be a headache & coffee reply :P) and thinking about Dean would ever have loved himself for that to turn into hate by that logic. 

I could think of 2 suggestions for how you could get to self-hate from there - the acceptably selfish love he’d have learned for himself as a kid while Mary was still alive (someone deserving of hugs and having the crusts cut off his sandwiches) and would have been destroyed under the burden of having to put himself second or third in the family unit, especially to Sam, once they’re on the road and he’s sort of raising Sam as the stand-in mother from age 4 onwards… Dean suffers from more and more extreme arcs about the loss of self, but the first “version” of Dean is one he lost early on and might have been the only Dean really able to uncomplicatedly love himself and believe himself worthy of that love, even if it’s in that way where to a 4 year old of course they’re the centre of the universe :P

There’s also a more complex thought I had and sorry, this is first thing in the morning for me so I hope I can explain properly… (Also this reply gets really long because of that… Sorry :P)

Looking at Dean’s self-loathing backwards, in how he ever expresses positive things about himself, I’m coming up mostly with all the snarky cutesy comments about how awesome he is and so on, which is pretty much always a great big helping of performing Dean. His self-worth is tied a lot into being a hunter (and he is occasionally sincerely proud of himself there), but overall that’s another persona, and the one he grew up into instead of the happy Dean with a normal childhood who might not have so many reasons to hate himself (Dean in 2x20, what you can gather about his personal life in the dream, is still completely affected by Dean’s own perception of himself so I don’t think it’s good data on how he’d live his life if he grew up with no monsters). 

Performing Dean, which that sequence at the end of 3x10 still shows best of any moment in the show, is all (when it comes down to it) something Dean acts under the expectation of what John would want or self-policed by what he thinks John would approve of. There’s an idealised version of Dean in his own head who is basically John or what Dean thinks John would have wanted him to be, and Dean’s lack of self-esteem is sometimes (dramatically) expressed in relation to feeling like he’s disappointed this spectre of John’s memory, and a great deal of his self-loathing comes from falling short of these standards. He’s definitely got better over time and learned to express himself more (by Dean standards) but his progress is always being interrupted, and this is such a core part of Dean I don’t think he can ever completely change it without altering his life in such a way there wouldn’t even be a show any more :P It’s not strictly “love” but it’s an idealised version of himself and also a key part of Dean’s sense of self and at least in the early seasons (before 3x10 let’s say :P) the version of himself he would want to love and live up to.

Anyway… idk about linking any of that directly to Dean being egocentric? I mean, that’s a reading you can make of him, I’m just not sure what part it plays. I should probably say immediately that I think Dean is very empathetic, and so that necessarily means in general he’s putting himself in others’ shoes when we’re looking at generic interpersonal relationships, plus the whole saving people thing, mean anything else I talk about, I’m giving Dean huge allowances here because I do think he’s kind and IN GENERAL puts others first, all the time. 

I know I have a tag about Dean being the centre of the universe, but for the most part I treat that as a joke on Dean where he doesn’t know it. On the other hand, the one major major time he exerts that power, in 5x22, he absolutely makes the entire apocalypse about him and his feelings and his need to talk to Sam before Michael and Lucifer fight, and uses that to save the world, so… Idk :P It’s not strictly a bad thing at all on a grand scale? Staying in season 5 for a minute (and sorry, Superwiki is not working right now so no quotes >.>), 5x11 explores Dean’s sense of the burden of the entire planet, and I think you could argue either way that he has an altruistic sense of having to save everyone, or focus on the “but why does it have to be him” thing, about how much he’s internalised that burden and in a way made it about himself. I feel like between his conditioning growing up to save people (and in season 1 he was altruistically the “saving people” side of “saving people hunting things” while Sam was the latter and revenge-focused) and the huge burdens the world puts on him, I don’t really think it’s fair to consider that Dean just happened to absorb this message because he’d be inclined to the idea of the world being on his shoulders, but that he is what the world made him especially with all the talk of Destiny and the feeling like no one else is remotely stuck in the cross hairs like they are. His reaction to being resurrected in 4x02 is skin-crawling horror that he’s been centred out for this sort of attention. When in big plot situations, his response can be read as egocentric, it’s not necessarily a criticism, especially as Dean is usually right, and it mostly gets the job done.

… Dealing with people, though. Idk, then it gets tricky :P Dean’s got a very strong moral centre and he expects others to hold up to his standards all the time. (I just watched through the end of season 6, and for example Dean arguing with Cas after the reveal is asking Cas to trust him and do as Dean says just because Dean believes it’s completely right and Cas is wrong. He doesn’t have any answers to help Cas this late in the game when they’re so deep into all these plans and disaster is looming and they’re out of time to deal with it, but in a way it’s almost like in 4x21 where Bobby’s telling Dean that Sam will die if they keep detoxing him, and Dean yells that at least Sam will die human - better to go out honourably than to betray yourself/Dean’s expectations of you. Being the moral core of the group DOES make it revolve around Dean’s principles, especially as he has a natural leadership to him and he can get used to what he says, goes. Like, in the latest episode, he makes the deal with Billie, and expects it to be about him when it comes to time to die… Mary getting between that abruptly shatters Dean’s centrality there, because the family unit is bigger than Dean and with so many more people involved in it, Mary and Cas hog all the drama of that moment, and in a way Dean only brought it to them. (And Sam, who only agreed to the deal, aside from badgering Dean to talk about it and getting shut down because Dean would clearly not want Sam to be the one to die, is also most used to operating under Dean’s rules and as the assumed survivor in Dean’s ideal scenario for that deal, had basically nothing to do with it aside from agreeing to a sketchy blood pact in the first place >.>)

Anyway watching through as far as I have (just watched 7x03) I do feel like I’ve been watching Dean’s moral authority grow and grow - as a response to trauma and to all the unimaginable situations he’s found himself in. Like the other characters, all the stuff that got them to the finish line in season 5, once in season 6 becomes much more dangerous and under the microscope for character development in a different way as the story switches from being sort of mythical to more about the interpersonal stuff. Dean by 7x03 has been shaken up by the ongoing problems with Sam, and Cas’s betrayal, and monsters that they don’t know how to kill, to the sort of place where his need for control, which was nurtured by all the apocalypse arc stuff by putting the burden directly on him, kind of now is definitely crossing over from a positive to neutral character trait to a definitely bad one… Honestly I feel like him ditching Sam and driving off to kill Amy because he doesn’t trust Sam is the real moment Dean snaps and sets off his arc that eventually leads to the Mark of Cain stuff, or Gadreel, which were all about Dean’s sense of control and his problems maintaining it that all play into his downfall arc as demon!Dean. (I honestly believe he’s so much more well-balanced in season 11 and 12 after all the character development Dean went through in season 10 - he was getting alarmingly zen and full of self-acceptance just before they pushed him  back over the edge… although it really needs a long view on it, like, I wasn’t certain for sure until 11x23 about how this was going for Dean, and he keeps doing stuff like these deals so it’s sort of like… he’s getting BETTER I’m not saying he’s perfect now :P) 

Anyway when it comes to Destiel, which I guess was the original reason you asked this based on your opening line… I think Dean DOES sometimes come across as egocentric - times when he puts himself or his problems first (the worst example being kicking Cas out of the Bunker). I’ve seen it argued a lot that Dean doesn’t really understand Cas to a certain level of Cas being vulnerable and/or someone he can really hurt this way, mostly because he has expectations literally to high Heaven about what Cas is and what he can do, and Cas is getting more and more human (only sometimes literally) but Dean has a lot of trouble bringing Cas down to his level. That “applications for sainthood” line about Dean and relationships is one of the best for looking at Dean and interpersonal relationships. That mixes HIS expectations (the egocentric side) with adoration and an expectation from others that he projects onto them, which is a much more selfless love but I guess no less dangerous when it comes to people disappointing him, because it comes as a blow to his entire world view. Like in 6x20 where Dean refused so long to think that Cas would betray them. Not just because Dean selfishly thinks everyone should do what he says (which is how it can come across) but because he truly believes those he loves would not do bad things. (Which also can explain his really extreme reactions to the bad stuff Sam does and Dean’s absolute reactions to it. In 4x22 when Dean’s moping about Sam to Bobby, Bobby calls Dean out on sounding like his father, which I think says a lot about where this behaviour in general comes from, again, all the absolutes and black and white thinking.) 

Anyway Dean said himself in 11x23 to Cas in the beer run, that he and Sam can get very caught up in their own stuff and forget to care about the things outside their problems, acknowledging how Cas had got a bit left to the wayside. I think that means Dean does genuinely struggle with this - and it’s now finally something that maybe they can really address after it was allowed to escalate so far over many seasons… historically almost every time there’s something wrong with Cas, Dean is slow on the uptake or it comes to smack him in the face he can’t be objective about it and generally makes the situation worse before it gets better (or swept under the rug into the growing pile of trauma Cas deals with >.>)… 

Now we’re getting some real Cas-focused episodes/a whole arc, and Cas’s problems are really out there again, I hope that means for Dean getting to face them properly as well and NOT reacting in the same way he often does. If there are far fewer issues around because all the plot has de-escalated a bit, HOPEFULLY that will let him focus on stuff outside himself? Like, though he didn’t react great to Cas leaving afterwards, when Cas actually announced he was going, Sam and Dean chased after him, and it was clear in that moment Dean genuinely was tuned in to something being up with Cas and without any other major problems to worry about that could take priority over that, and was concerned about Cas. 

I’m really hoping when it comes to Dean’s awareness of Cas’s issues he’s just had a huge wake up call, especially about how much Cas cares about them all, and while that was all about “the Winchesters” the show endlessly puts Dean n Cas just a little notch above everything else in that dynamic (Dean getting the more dramatic reaction to seeing Cas, sitting with him in the car, being the one to phone him, Sam as an outside observer to that and what Dean did and didn’t tell Cas… Even when all the language seemed to be very generically about the family as a whole, they are still singled out within it…)

But yeah, I’m not at all a bitter Cas fan who thinks Dean is cruel to Cas so I’m saying this out of wanting them to be better than they already are, not like this is a barrage of accusations levelled at Dean for being self-centred :P I try to always follow both their perspectives on a thing because there’s always huge misunderstandings. And sadly when Dean has a misunderstanding with Cas  he often lashes out at him, and that also makes it look in a lot of circumstances like Dean is being self-centred, where from his perspective he feels just as wronged by Cas and is already desperate and angry when they start a conversation (still thinking of season 6 and I guess their epic miscommunication in the end of season 7, or Dean’s lack of understanding in season 8 after the crypt scene, which is a moment that piles on a huge mess Dean’s already feeling so he doesn’t react out of the blue to randomly be angry with Cas when he shows up again…) Dean’s kind of terrible all round at interpersonal relationships… I’m very sympathetic to him there so it doesn’t upset me as long as I can understand WHERE he’s gone wrong. 

… I should probably stop talking here because I have no idea what you actually wanted here but I have been spewing way too many thoughts at you to no real conclusion… This reply is way too long but I can’t think how to cut it down aside from just not making entire points or not answering :P